GIMP 3.0 - a Milestone For Open-Source Image Editing 67
LWN: The long-awaited release of the GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP) 3.0 is on the way, marking the first major update since version 2.10 was released in April 2018. It now features a GTK 3 user interface and GIMP 3.0 introduces significant changes to the core platform and plugins. This release also brings performance and usability improvements, as well as more compatibility with Wayland and complex input sources.
GIMP 3.0 is the first release to use GTK 3, a more modern foundation than the GTK 2 base of prior releases. GTK 4 has been available for a few years now, and is on the project's radar, but the plan was always to finish the GTK 3 work first. Moving to GTK 3 brings initial Wayland compatibility and HiDPI scaling. In addition, this allows for GIMP users to take advantage of multi-touch input, bringing pinch-to-zoom gestures to the program, and offering a better experience when working with complex peripherals, such as advanced drawing tablets. These features were not previously possible due to the limitations of GTK 2.
A secondary result of the transition to GTK 3 is a refreshed user interface (UI), now with support for CSS themes included. In this release, four themes are available by default, including light, dark, and gray themes, along with a high-contrast theme for users with visual impairments. Additionally, this release has transitioned to using GTK's header bar component, typically used to combine an application's toolbar and title bar into one unit. To maintain familiarity with previous releases, however, GIMP 3.0 still supports the traditional menu interface.
GIMP 3.0 is the first release to use GTK 3, a more modern foundation than the GTK 2 base of prior releases. GTK 4 has been available for a few years now, and is on the project's radar, but the plan was always to finish the GTK 3 work first. Moving to GTK 3 brings initial Wayland compatibility and HiDPI scaling. In addition, this allows for GIMP users to take advantage of multi-touch input, bringing pinch-to-zoom gestures to the program, and offering a better experience when working with complex peripherals, such as advanced drawing tablets. These features were not previously possible due to the limitations of GTK 2.
A secondary result of the transition to GTK 3 is a refreshed user interface (UI), now with support for CSS themes included. In this release, four themes are available by default, including light, dark, and gray themes, along with a high-contrast theme for users with visual impairments. Additionally, this release has transitioned to using GTK's header bar component, typically used to combine an application's toolbar and title bar into one unit. To maintain familiarity with previous releases, however, GIMP 3.0 still supports the traditional menu interface.
GTK3 (Score:3)
Ah, excellent gtk3!
Look for a massive amount of whitespace for absolutely no reason, an almost incomprehensible task for end users to theme, and just general weirdness.
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>"Ah, excellent gtk3! Look for a massive amount of whitespace for absolutely no reason, an almost incomprehensible task for end users to theme, and just general weirdness."
Exactly. Thank you. It is nice to hear from those who also find GTK3 to be a massive step backwards in so many ways. I shutter to think about what GTK4 "improvements" are coming (something I haven't been forced to deal with yet).
Re: GTK3 (Score:2)
Shudder.
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As someone who has a HiDPI display, I find GTK2 apps to be nearly unusable now. So the GTK3 update alone is enormously welcome.
Fortunately, most GTK2 apps are semi-abandonware at this point, but they still tend to have no obvious drop-in replacements.
Unfortunately, there's also long tail of niche commercial Qt4 apps with similar issues, which the vendors have zero incentive to ever update unless Microsoft horribly breaks their DPI compatibility hacks on Windows.
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>"As someone who has a HiDPI display, I find GTK2 apps to be nearly unusable now. So the GTK3 update alone is enormously welcome."
I don't want to imply that everything GTK3 is garbage. It isn't. My problem is that the developers locked down themes and controls in an extremely hostile way. It is apparently "their way or the highway". And many of us don't like what they have done with the UI and simply want control to have traditional options (and without hacking the hell out of stuff to get it).
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I'm using a 4k 30" display on Linux, with 125% fractional scaling. No matter what I do, including all of the tips out there, all of the icons and UI controls in GIMP 2.x are microscopic. In other Gtk2 apps (e.g. HexChat), icons and controls are also microscopic but the UI is mostly text which renders fine.
In legacy Qt4 and Java apps, things are also microscopic. But sometimes text is comically huge, depending on how they decide to size elements. Regardless its a mess all around.
Meanwhile, anything built
Young faddersnappers git off my mouse! (Score:1)
> massive amount of whitespace for absolutely no reason
It's probably to make it "tablet friendly" for finger pointing. But often that hurts mouse users, as it adds unnecessary scrolling because less fits in the target real-estate.
Mousing is still the primary pointing method for productivity-oriented applications: apps used for hours on end. Making stuff pro-mobile usually kicks mousers. UI designers often forget a top rule while chasing fads: Know Your Audience.
Re: Young faddersnappers git off my mouse! (Score:4, Interesting)
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Why can't GIMP use the Windows file picker if running on Windows, at least as an option?
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Why can't GIMP use the Windows file picker if running on Windows, at least as an option?
There are options added to the save and load dialogs to deal with file types (and for saving, file format options) so the standard dialogs aren't suitable. GTK will happily allow you to do it otherwise by using the GtkFileChooserNative widget.
Re: Young faddersnappers git off my mouse! (Score:1)
Re: Young faddersnappers git off my mouse! (Score:1)
Don't expect GTK4 anytime soon (Score:2)
The GTK3 port was kinda started back in 2012. https://www.phoronix.com/news/... [phoronix.com]
At this rate, maybe it would be faster to switch to Qt?
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The GTK3 port was kinda started back in 2012. https://www.phoronix.com/news/... [phoronix.com]
At this rate, maybe it would be faster to switch to Qt?
Or to Pixelmator.
Re:Don't expect GTK4 anytime soon (Score:5, Interesting)
Hoping (Score:3, Insightful)
>"To maintain familiarity with previous releases, however, GIMP 3.0 still supports the traditional menu interface."
Whew. I really don't want to adjust to but so many changes at once. This has been a big disconnect with many things (looking at you GNOME and GTK) where developers make radical changes just "because". I HATE hamburger menus, menus in title bars, menu options lacking icons (will GIMP 3 even be able to have menu icons, because they destroyed that in GTK 3), menus that fade in and out or scroll in and out (wasting my time and slowing remote displays), disappearing scroll bars, scroll bars that don't indicate size of view, etc.
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From the announcement:
Additionally, this release has transitioned to using GTK's header bar component, typically used to combine an application's toolbar and title bar into one unit. To maintain familiarity with previous releases, however, GIMP 3.0 still supports the traditional menu interface.
I prefer the old interface with seperate windows for images and what groups of tools I make. Could never stand the single window interface of Photoshop.
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>"I prefer the old interface with seperate windows for images and what groups of tools I make. Could never stand the single window interface of Photoshop."
Interesting, there are times I like one and times I like the other. As long as I have a choice for single or multi-window in GIMP, I am happy. Choice is good. And that is something that GTK developers worked VERY hard to take away from us (extremely evident in GTK 3). Thankfully, GIMP developers seem to like/understand/respect user choice.
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Gimp needs a basic UI (Score:2)
Shouldn't have to google "in gimp how do i adjust levels..." or some other question each and every time I need to use GIMP.
There's an impedance mismatch between those that want a UI to be an art project and those what want a tool (GIMP) to be easy to use. Too often the 'it's an art project' ones win.
Gimp really boggles my mind (Score:4, Insightful)
If you go down to South America you will find people doing absolutely amazing things with it because they can't afford the Adobe licenses and Gimp is right there. I came across those guys when I was buying a drawing tablet as a gift for a buddy of mine.
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FWIW, I prefer the inteface The GIMP had a decade ago to the current one. This causes me to wonder if the next will be even worse. Inkscape had a better interface then too.
Re:Gimp really boggles my mind (Score:5, Informative)
It's the simple things. I had to update GIMP recently, and the UI changes were so significant that I ended up having to Google search just for how to customize the brush size. One of my most commonly used features was just hard to find.
I'll give the new UI a try, but it's rather painful to throw years of experience out the window. It'd be easier to justify if I used the software more often, but I don't... I pull it out, rarely, for "quick" jobs, and it sucks having to relearn stuff in that context. I was expecting a 2 minute session, not 20 minutes of looking up tutorials.
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It took from 2012 until now to use an adjustment layer (a Photoshop feature from the 90s) in GIMP, 2 hours is quick.
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One of my most commonly used features was just hard to find.
Hard to find, or simply not in the place that you trained yourself over the years to look? Just for fun I looked up a youtube video from Gimp 2.10 on brush sizes, and I saw where to click even before the person explained it. With the Brush selected apparently you can change your brush size in the "Tool Options" pane on the right. What a mind-blowingly hard place to find a tool option!!!!
Now to be clear I'm not questioning your intelligence or anything like that, but pointing out there is a difference betwee
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... the "Tool Options" pane on the right. What a mind-blowingly hard place to find a tool option!!!!
Indeed, it was hard to find, because the Tool Options pane was not turned on by default. Maybe they've fixed that by now? But it was also not to be found in the "Tools" menu, which was the location which made the most sense to me.
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I prefer the inteface The GIMP had a decade ago to the current one. This causes me to wonder if the next will be even worse.
If by that you mean switching from multiple windows mode to single windows mode, then it is still there in GIMP 3.
Inkscape had a better interface then too.
Inkscape went to single window mode right after forking from Sodipodi.
the important part (Score:5, Informative)
Besides UI improvements of course, the big important part of GIMP 3.0 is non-destructive editing. FTFA:
This is the core of why it has historically been far easier to achieve specific ends with Photoshop than GIMP. Photoshop has offered non-destructive editing through its "layer effects" literally since before it was called Photoshop, but this became a main focus around version 2.5 and it has been responsible for much of its success. Being able to fiddle these effects means not having to re-do things if you want to make a change to something you did in the middle of your work. Some of what people mistake for UI superiority in Photoshop was actually that it had this functionality to even have a UI for. Implementing it as effects for layers was almost the only reasonable way to do it, what else do you attach them to?
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Being able to fiddle these effects means not having to re-do things if you want to make a change to something you did in the middle of your work.
this is indeed a fundamental change and a huge improvement, surely worth accomodating to the ui nerf. thx for pointing out.
Not previously possible? (Score:3)
"These features were not previously possible due to the limitations of GTK 2."
GTK is just a wrapper on top of Xlib so code around it if it doesn't do what you need.
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Re:Not previously possible? (Score:5, Informative)
Sounds... Pointless (Score:4, Insightful)
The goal for development should be better tools and a more intuitive interface to access those tools.
If you're worried about themes, presumably your product is otherwise perfect because a theme for your image editor should be among the very last things you care about.
I'm pretty sure Gimp is not perfect.
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Right. Because "modern" means hiding everything, tons of whitespace, no menu icons, no menus other than hamburger, time-wasting menu animations, less-functional scrollbars, and not allowing UI preferences to change those things.
I will take old stuff, then :)
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You're so angry at someone migrating GTK versions you missed the fact that it enables precisely what you mentioned. One of the issues for GTK is that over the years attempts to do certain things cause them to break. You want a more intuitive interface? That is facilited by the features provided in a modern interface toolkit. The theming is completely secondary effect.
Gimp isn't perfect, they are trying to make it so by doing what you want - making the interface more intuitive. It's like criticising a car co
The biggest problem of Gimp is the UI (Score:3)
Millions of people are proficient with Photoshop, and they hit a wall whenever they have to work with GIMP, which really earned it’s name.
But nooooo. GIMP is marred by an arcane UI thought off by geeks who have no clue about professional workflow.
I remember taking three hours trying to do what takes 2 minutes with Photoshop. This experienced burned GIMP for me in a very durable way!
Re:The biggest problem of Gimp is the UI (Score:5, Interesting)
Indeed. GIMP has many fundamental problems:
1. Idiotic acronym. Sadly, branding matters. Yes, the acronym "makes sense" -- to geeks -- but for everyone else it sounds fucking stupid.
2. No option for Photoshop hotkeys. There used to be IIRC a 1.x plug-in that switched all the hotkeys to the equivalent Photoshop ones -- of course it is "abandoned". The GIMP team has NEVER understood: You want to streamline the onboarding process. This isn't rocket science. At the initial startup show a dialog box:
3. Different workflow. Clicking within a selection to toggle between moving and resetting it was probably the biggest shock to me when I first tried GIMP decades ago. Yes, it makes sense and is superior but there probably should be a pop-up the first time you try this so people new to GIMP (and/or have experience with Photoshop) can be told WHY GIMP's method is/was superior.
The File Open box in 2.x is a great example of GIMP's UI being fucking stupid. ALWAYS show me the bloody "Location" text entry box instead of making me jump through hoops to show it -- yes, it "just" a single click, but UI options shouldn't be "hidden" to begin with!
4. Feature incomplete. I have a .psd that I created back in 2005 that uses layer effects. Every few versions of GIMP I try to open it to see what is STILL broken:
* 2.10.16 is still broken.
* 3.0.0-RC1 is STILL broken. I got the warning "Layer effects are not yet supported and will show up as empty layers." warning on the "Import PSD" dialog. Really? Layer effects??
How the fuck does GIMP STILL not implement basic layer effects that Photoshop has had for almost 20 YEARS ago?!?!.
5. Bad Multiple Monitor support. Every so often GIMP can't remember how I have my non-docked windows laid out across my 4 monitors. I still don't understand how a program can completely fuck up remembering each window's position in 2024???
6. Inability to run multiple versions at the same time. Another COMPLETELY idiotic decision is the inability to run multiple versions at the same time. Why the fuck can't I run version 2.x AND version 3.x to TEST out what is fixed/broken? Or version 2.10.16 and a newer 2.x version? This isn't the 1990's anymore.
GIMP is failing so many basic user experience cases that it is no wonder that Affinity Photo is quickly becoming a Photoshop replacement. GIMP has had 20 years and still can't even do the basic job. Maybe in another decade ...
Re: The biggest problem of Gimp is the UI (Score:2)
Blenders support for 3ds/Maya keymaps probably did a lot of heavy lifting to allow it to reach the tipping point to where it is today - eating the incumbants' lunch in many studios.
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Yup, Blender's impact shouldn't be underestimated.
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The File Open box in 2.x is a great example of GIMP's UI being fucking stupid. ALWAYS show me the bloody "Location" text entry box instead of making me jump through hoops to show it -- yes, it "just" a single click, but UI options shouldn't be "hidden" to begin with!
I don't think one is GIMP's fault, I think it's a GTK dialog. It always annoys me that Firefox's Save dialog is so much worse than the file dialogs for Qt programs.
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1. Idiotic acronym.
I am a non-native English speaker, for those like me the name is of no issue, it's just a name.
2. No option for Photoshop hotkeys.
GIMPShop? It died because it wasn't really useful.
3. Different workflow.
The software is different, the features are different, of course the workflow is different. I would argue the GIMP workflow is better.
4. Feature incomplete.
Is the .psd format public, open and documented? It isn't, so is impossible to support it 100%.
5. Bad Multiple Monitor support.
I have only two monitors and didn't notice anything bothering me
6. Inability to run multiple versions at the same time.
Which other application allow you to run multiple versions at the same time
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> 1. ... for those like me the name is of no issue, it's just a name.
Annnd you already missed the first point. Yes, it is just a name but HOW it is perceived is important to the NON-geeks.
> 3. I would argue the GIMP workflow is better.
I already stated that: "can be told WHY GIMP's method is/was superior."
Did you even read what I wrote or are you just doing a knee-jerk devil's advocate without actually THINKING about what you are reading??
> 4. It isn't, so is impossible to support it 100%.
We are ta
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I would be fairly stunned if it weren't possible to spin up another GIMP in Docker or something. (did a little websearch, yes, you can run multiple versions or multiple instances of the same version this way.) This still basically leaves you with another OS but disk space is cheap now. Even SSDs are cheap up to about a TB, I know because I just ordered two 1TB units and I am frugal AF.* It's not a big deal to use another operating system's worth of space when that operating system is Linux and it doesn't ea
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The docker solution is not a bad idea so I might look into that. The simpler solution would be to just fork GIMP, uncomment the lines that check for a existing process, and re-compile but we all know "easy" it is compile large Open Source repositories. /s
I already have 10 NVMEs ranging from 1 TB to 4 TBs. I'd rather not waste disk space on yet-another OS if I can help it since disk space is already used on all of them -- except for the 4TB one which has 50% free space. (Having multiple versions of UE 5.x
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Yes, it makes sense and is superior but there probably should be a pop-up the first time you try this so people new to GIMP (and/or have experience with Photoshop) can be told WHY GIMP's method is/was superior.
User guidance is something drastically underappreciated, misunderstood, and frequently misimplemented even when it does exist. See Microsoft for a prime example of how not to do it (e.g. they interrupt your use of Teams with dialogs which have to be acknowledged to tell you about other features which may not not even be enabled in your organization) but there's another way which is almost as bad, not doing it at all.
"Tours" of functionality ought to be considered mandatory for all applications of any signif
Re:The biggest problem of Gimp is the UI (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm an amateur. I hate the GIMP UI. I hate the Photoshop UI. But since the number of howto's for Photoshop is about 10 million times the number for GIMP, I wish it at least had a toggle to use the Photoshop UI.
It reminds me of an argument I had with gatekeepers at LibreOffice a several years ago, askng that the UI be more like Excel. Their argument: it should be more like Lotus. This was when Excel had like 90% of the market or more.
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It reminds me of an argument I had with gatekeepers at LibreOffice a several years ago, askng that the UI be more like Excel. Their argument: it should be more like Lotus.
What? Like Lotus? Didn't that go away and then come back as a mostly different product which also failed?
I do remember Lotus on DOS having good UI, but that's irrelevant if we're not going back to serial terminals.
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I never used Lotus, but LibreOffice does not need to be more like today's Excel. It is, and should be, more like Excel from 20 years ago. The pre-ribbon MS-Office interface was developed based on extensive user accessibility research. Every function had a menu item labeled with corresponding keyboard shortcuts and icons. If you found the icon in the menu you could then find a corresponding button in the toolbars. LibreOffice still uses this proven and effective user interface. Modern MS-Office has butt
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Features aren't identical, the UI can't be a clone.
Re:The biggest problem of Gimp is the UI (Score:5, Insightful)
This is such an obvious idea, it's probably worthwhile to ask, "why hasn't anyone done this?" After all, the source code is there. If someone wanted to fork a Photoshop-UI Gimp badly enough, they could fork one.
I think the answer probably is that nobody who has looked into doing this thought it was worth paying for, either for reasons of utility or reasons of technical difficulty.
In my experience there's no shortage of ideas for projects. What there's a shortage of is people who are willing to pay, either with money or labor, to make an idea happen. People will chew your ear off about why this or that feature is so important, but if literally nobody is willing to pay the development cost, either in money or labor, you have to conclude that that idea isn't the best use of anyone's time.
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This is such an obvious idea, it's probably worthwhile to ask, "why hasn't anyone done this?"
It was done, that project was GIMPShop and it died years ago because it wasn't useful.
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Reminds me of when I used the M$ ribbon for the first time (on someone else's machine of course). It took me 20 minutes to find Print Document function.
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Yep. Drop-down menus might be old school but they're predictable and consistent, which is what menus should be. If people want to use the ribbon, great, but I find drop-down menus to be quicker and more logical. Using the mouse to scroll the ribbon is about the only "shortcut" I've found and that makes it tolerable.
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GIMP could make significant inroads if it mocked Photoshop’s UI.
No, GIMP is a different program and its inner working is different. Mocking the UI would mislead users into thinking the features are a 1:1 clone.
Also, years ago there was some plugin to make UI and shortcuts copy Photoshop as much as possible, GIMPShop it was called. That project died years ago for good reason.
GIMP is the poster child (Score:5, Informative)
GIMP is the poster child for highly capable open source software that is madingly difficult to use. About once every five years I try again to learn how to use it. After a could of days I realize that nothing I want to accomplish is worth the month of study, practice, and experimentation it would take to become proficient.
It's easy to find college classes and enrichment classes that teach you how to use Photoshop. It's impossible to find one that teaches you how to use GIMP. That says a lot right there.
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It's easy to find college classes and enrichment classes that teach you how to use Photoshop. It's impossible to find one that teaches you how to use GIMP. That says a lot right there.
What does this tell you? Is it that nobody is teaching GIMP because it's inferior, or that people find it difficult because they haven't been taught how to use it? Introduction to Computers at a community college will typically teach students how to use Windows, Microsoft Office, and a few other proprietary software tools. A semester long course exposes students to every ribbon and button in the Microsoft Office interface. LibreOffice has a much simpler interface, and has a stable and capable application
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It's easy to find college classes and enrichment classes that teach you how to use Photoshop. It's impossible to find one that teaches you how to use GIMP. That says a lot right there.
It's all about market share, colleges won't bother developing courses for applications that aren't mainstream.
smooth (Score:2)
I recently upgraded my desktop from Fedora 40 to Fedora 41, the upgrade brought GIMP 3.0RC1 and it went smoothly no big issues. My main warning is, don't move if you need the G'MIC plugin, which isn't available yet.
GIMP in the weeds (Score:1)
PhotoShop has won the market by being designed for non-coders to get their work done before the heat-death of the universe. GIMP not so much.
It's pretty simple; freeware with a good interface that can do a job efficiently will win (Audacity for audio editing is a good example), often displacing commercial offerings. Make it an insider's game with an endless learning curve and it will be sitting in the weeds forever.
There is a great opportunity now that Adobe is charging rent but I'm not holding my breath
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We had this problem with Blender too, they worked it out and GIMP can work it out. Now that they are mainlining non-destructive editing they will run into all the ways in which a sensible UI for that runs into the UI they are using now and it will eventually shake out.
The glorious thing about FOSS is that it gets there in the end. The tragic thing is that the end may be after that heat death you were talking about.
Offtopic aside: I have always enjoyed that phrase a lot. Back in my nerdling days hanging arou