India's EV Paradox: Highest Subsidies, Lowest Uptake (indiadispatch.com) 132
India, the world's fifth-largest economy, is offering the heftiest electric vehicle subsidies globally -- yet has achieved just 2% market penetration so far. From a report: India's total EV subsidies amount to 40-50% of vehicle prices when accounting for GST (goods and services tax), road tax benefits, state subsidies and production-linked incentives. For larger vehicles like the Grand Vitara, the effective subsidy reaches 61%.
This dwarfs incentives in other major markets. China's subsidies represent about 10% of EV prices, while South Korea and Germany offer around 16-20%. The US provides roughly 26% through various federal and state programs.
Yet India's EV penetration significantly lags these markets. China has reached 24% penetration, South Korea 18%, Germany 20%, and the US 8%. India's 2% looks particularly stark in comparison.
This dwarfs incentives in other major markets. China's subsidies represent about 10% of EV prices, while South Korea and Germany offer around 16-20%. The US provides roughly 26% through various federal and state programs.
Yet India's EV penetration significantly lags these markets. China has reached 24% penetration, South Korea 18%, Germany 20%, and the US 8%. India's 2% looks particularly stark in comparison.
How's the charging infrastructure? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:How's the charging infrastructure? POOR (Score:4, Informative)
High costs, poor electrical quality. Its a bit of a meme, but many still steal their electricity off of live wires, this does not help reliability.
https://www.spglobal.com/mobil... [spglobal.com]
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No and no. This is actually why EVs are a dead end in developing countries right now, and why a big question is what will happen there should large shipments of used ICEs that form majority of their fleets die out due to lack of sales of new ICEs in developed nations.
Considering that EVs have largely become a "second car in a two car household" thing in most places first, and "only car in household" second even for developed nations, meaning it's primarily a car for people who own a house and can install a
Re: How's the charging infrastructure? (Score:2)
China is building coal-fired power plants to charge EVs, is it better for your vehicles to be run on fossil fuels or coal?
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PRC isn't doing "NEV" (Chinese propaganda language that calls them "new energy vehicles") transition for some silly narrative reasons. They're doing it because they're preparing for a long term stand-off with the West over Taiwan. Part of that is maintaining state logistics in face of a likely blockade of oil shipments going from Middle East to PRC either around Indian subcontinent, or Straight of Malacca. Both are well outside current strike range of PLAN, so there's little they can do about it without goi
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You might want to check your reading comprehension. I stated that it can be easily interdicted at one of those two points. Because that is where the flow goes. You don't need to be an expert to check this in less than 15 seconds. One look at marinetraffic.com will confirm my point.
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Re: How's the charging infrastructure? (Score:4, Insightful)
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And the industrial countries went in denial and debated how climate change was a hoax, and if not
Re: How's the charging infrastructure? (Score:2)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/m... [forbes.com]
Re: How's the charging infrastructure? (Score:2)
It moves the pollution to more easily controlled places, cutting the smog. Plus EVs can switch to other power sources as they become available, ICEs can't. So it actually makes sense for them.
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> is it better for your vehicles to be run on fossil fuels or coal?
Coal.
Setting aside your incorrect assertion about what China is or is not building, and their actual energy mix, an EV's efficiency is so high that even if charged from a coal powerplant via a grid network the per-mile emissions are comparable to a Prius.
When you consider China's actual energy mix, emissions are considerably lower.
So yeah, "coal powered EV" beats just about any gasoline or diesel ICEV in terms of emissions.
=Smidge=
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China is building coal-fired power plants to charge EVs, is it better for your vehicles to be run on fossil fuels or coal?
I'd like to see all coal plants shuttered but at least the ones being built in China are very modern ones.
That's how they should have started instead of the 1000s of crap ones they built decades ago when they were ramping up their coal consumption by nearly an order of magnitude but better late than never & they've reportedly been shuttering the old nasty ones aggressively for the past decade
https://www.americanprogress.o... [americanprogress.org]
https://globalenergyprize.org/... [globalenergyprize.org]
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China is building coal-fired power plants to charge EVs, is it better for your vehicles to be run on fossil fuels or coal?
China is _replacing_ coal power plants. Their coal consumption has peaked this year. Also, EVs are more CO2-efficient than ICE cars even when powered from coal power plants.
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is it better for your vehicles to be run on fossil fuels or coal?
Not a very good question, because China isn't building coal plants specifically for EVs and gas plants for all other uses. They're increasing their total energy production, using whatever works for them, so it's not like eliminating EVs will suddenly eliminate new coal plants.
Keep in mind that the extraction and refining of petroleum, and the distribution of gas are all among the most energy consuming and polluting processes; their cost needs to be added to the pollution and energy cost of ICEs, on top of t
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"This is actually why EVs are a dead end in developing countries right now,"
Such countries should be building & improving their electrical infrastructure and looking at electrifying PUBLIC transit, not focusing on private ownership for now
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Actually such countries should be focusing on things completely unrelated to any of this babble, beyond ensuring that they can get enough access to spare parts. Article of mindless faith that "public transit", something that requires high level of orderliness from society to work is a proper solution for nations who's primary problem is excess disorder at every level of organisation... is so phenomenally idiotic that about the only thing I can do is provide you with this link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?. [youtube.com]
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Please go fuck yourself. Every country can do more than one thing at a time.
And this "babble" is about ELECTRIFICATION.
If you think that's a bad thing, let's see you live without it.
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This is more of the same "No bread? Eat cake. Here's how!" delusion. Coupled with white savior complex on top of it, thinking you know better than those lowly third worlders. Who almost universally arrange their personal automotive logistics around used ICEs and bikes.
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"thinking you know better than those lowly third worlders"
after all this time, why are still living in the third world?
must be someone else's fault, amirite?
"This is more of the same "No bread? Eat cake. Here's how!" delusion"
Did you miss the part where massive subsidies isn't helping uptake?
Then what exactly is the point?
"almost universally arrange their personal automotive logistics around used ICEs and bikes"
Delhi has some of the worst air quality in the world which makes it challenging to pedal one's bi
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>after all this time, why are still living in the third world?
>must be someone else's fault, amirite?
Yes. Geography combined with divergent evolution. Africans have massive populations that still struggle with mentally modelling concept of future as something real and tangible, which leads to extreme difficulties in investing in long term futures. This is the "sell all the books in the library after white librarian leaves" problem that is so well documented in several books by people who would come ba
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The discussion is about India.
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EVs in developing countries aren't really an issue. In fact, they can be a solution to a lot of issues.
India's grid sucks. The power is bad and it's unreliable. But they are also in a relatively sunny location. EVs can provide a necessary bridge by heing what are basically large mobile batteries.
Oil and ICE engines require far more infrastructure - you require an oil field to provide the crude, then all the transportation of such, then the refineries, then transportation of the product to the end user. This
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"No bread? Let them eat cake! Perfect solution for these reasons".
These delusional posts that feature people who genuinely have not a faintest clue how developing countries function at all, and just project developed country baseline upon them is sad. This isn't the first one with this exact theme either.
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If EV roll outs are to be serious (i.e. PRC where EVs are considered a national security issue due to geography of how oil gets there and interdiction paths by geostrategic competitors), you need to sink an absolute fortune into a functional charging network. And even PRC hasn't done quite enough on that front yet.
If EV roll outs are to be serious, you better be thinking of ALL the other shit that requires oil other than the fucking EV.
Yes. The EV too. Those tires they chew through hauling around another cars worth of battery aren’t exactly made of hemp and bullshit. Or the plastic dash in the car. Or the plastic tits in the driver. Figure out what you’re going to make plastic milk jugs and IV bags out of.yet? Hell, we’ll BURN more oil than ever to make the electricity to charge the “gr
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I'm probably one of about two people who remembers how fractional distillation of oil works and what are the limiting factors in it on this site. Unironically. Every time I remind people that the limiting factor is kerosene, and so it doesn't matter how much less gasoline we use in cars as long as planes have to fly, amount of oil consumed isn't going to change I get a lot of ignorant commenters screeching about how I must be wrong.
This before going into the whole "fertilizer" discussion. Since genocidal id
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Hmm... I remember reading that we've been using cracking techniques [essentialc...dustry.org] to increase the fraction of oil that is gasoline and diesel in the past, most articles make it seem like the gasoline fraction is the limiting factor for oil.
Gasoline - 26.9M barrels/day in 2023. [oilprice.com] 9.82B barrels/year.
Jet Fuel seems to be tracked separately than Kerosene, straight kerosene is a rounding error in comparison.
But I found that in 2023 we used 99B gallons [statista.com] of the stuff. Slightly more in 2024, but I'm sticking to same year data wh
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>Jet Fuel seems to be tracked separately than Kerosene, straight kerosene is a rounding error in comparison.
Jet fuel is made from kerosene, it's not an inherent distillate of oil like kerosene is. Just like gasolene is a natural distillate of oil, while gasoline that goes into cars is made from gasolene.
Kerosene depending on specific type of oil being fractionally distilled is usually 4%-5% of total. Did you confuse "oil barrel and what it fractionates into" with "end product list"?
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I didn't say that jet fuel isn't made from kerosene, I said that it is tracked separately. As in "global kerosene production" is a couple orders of magnitude less than "global jet fuel production" when I went looking.
I know they're from the same spot on the distillation stack.
Did you confuse "oil barrel and what it fractionates into" with "end product list"?
No, notice how I listed both?
The EIA even bothers to list jet fuel, but despite knowing full well kerosene is produced in country and sold as such, they don't bother splitting it out, unlike "jet fuel" and "gasoline".
I think my point
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>They can simply mess with the proportions they're refining such that as gasoline becomes less valuable because fewer cars and systems are using it, they produce more of what are now more valuable products.
This indicates that you did in fact make the mistake I outlined, even though you denied it earlier in your post. Because oil contains a very specific amount of each product of oil. That you fractionally distill from it. You can't just distill more kerosene from a specific oil blend than there is in it.
Careful about claiming others made a mistake (Score:2)
This indicates that you did in fact make the mistake I outlined,
No, I actually didn't, because I'm operating off of more knowledge. Basically, refineries don't just fractionally distill.
They do other things like Cracking [wikipedia.org]. Fluid catalytic cracking [wikipedia.org] more specifically.
Fluid catalytic cracking (FCC) is the conversion process used in petroleum refineries to convert the high-boiling point, high-molecular weight hydrocarbon fractions of petroleum (crude oils) into gasoline, alkene gases, and other petroleum products.[1][2][3] The cracking of petroleum hydrocarbons was originally done by thermal cracking, now virtually replaced by catalytic cracking, which yields greater volumes of high octane rating gasoline; and produces by-product gases, with more carbon-carbon double bonds (i.e. alkenes), that are of greater economic value than the gases produced by thermal cracking.
They also do stuff like Isomerisation, Reforming, Alkylation, Dealkylation, Disproportionation, and polymerization. [essentialc...dustry.org]
It's that amount, no more and no less.
Only until you bring out the catalysts and start getting fancy.
All you can do is fuck up the distillation and waste some.
US refineries [eia.gov] manage to take 42 gallons of crude oil and turn it into 45 gallons of refined product.
You can't get more without very complex and exceedingly expensive chemical processes (essentially making synthetic kerosene from another fractional distillation product or even completely another source).
I won't dispute complex, but
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This post is basically "this is how we do a little bit of [quote below]"
>You can't get more without very complex and exceedingly expensive chemical processes (essentially making synthetic kerosene from another fractional distillation product or even completely another source).
Yes we do because it's economical to do a little bit of it. Because refineries don't just do fractional distillation for further refinement. They produce actual end product too.
But you still can't get more product than there is. All
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But you still can't get more product than there is. All you can do is synthesize it from less used fractions.
And that's what I'm saying they're doing. Ergo, if gasoline use drops while kerosene/jet fuel use remains stable or even increases, what they do is stop synthesizing gasoline from less used fractions and start synthesizing more jet fuel.
This doesn't entirely solve the problem of what happens when gasoline use starts to actually decrease, but it delays them for at least a few years. We can extract a bit less oil, refine a bit less gasoline, and proportionally more other stuff.
After a point, we could enter
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> what they do is stop synthesizing gasoline from less used fractions and start synthesizing more jet fuel.
And this is where you run into costs issue. No one wants your golden fully synthetic fuel unless you're Germany in late 1944/early 1945. There's a little bit of sythethic production you can do that doesn't raise prices much.
And the rest is gold fuel. So expensive no one will buy it unless nothing else is available.
And that's why kerosene is the limiting fractional distillation product in oil, and re
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That's not my 'golden fully synthetic fuel', that your strawman's fuel.
Meanwhile I said that they can produce more jet fuel to a point.
And 'nobody will buy it unless nothing else is available' is standard. It could be one cent more expensive and it would still be avoided until they had no choice.
Gasoline is currently the limiter, not kerosene. That is what they're increasing via cracking and such, not kerosene.
It isn't let them eat cake, it is an informed opinion. At least at first, refineries can just a
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This is more of you not understanding relevant chemistry nor reality. We mostly generate kerosene from heaviest fractions as much as we can. You can see this in your own linked charts, where we get around 4% of kerosene, but around 9% of various variants of avgas when you count final products instead of distillates. The issue is that alkylation and hydrocracking+reformation only goes one way.
We have a massive excess of heaviest stuff right now. It's what we burn in maritime diesels and similar engines. It's
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This is more of you not understanding relevant chemistry nor reality.
That would be you actually. You're like a middle schooler trying to explain how something would fall using only gravity to an adult with a math degree who's taking air friction into account.
Hint: Try to lay off attacking me, and actually provide sources for what you're saying. I know I provided a bunch.
We have a massive excess of heaviest stuff right now.
Indeed. Part of that is things like oil tars and sands, which tend to produce very heavy crude. But that's what cracking is for.
Up the chain. And a lot of it, is easiest to do with the lightest distillation product as the end of the line. That's gasoline.
Actually, above gasoline you have Naphta, propane, natural gas, and such.
ke
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>And "easy" isn't really the issue - how expensive is it?
Is there a correlation between the two?
>As for using natural gas because it's cheaper, well, if they adjust processes so it produces less gasoline and more kerosene, with the consequence of more CH4, that means that even the CH4 can be sold, right?
No. Can't compete with free. Natgas is effectively free as an input in shale rich areas. This is what all the fighting about LNG and CNG terminals to ship it to Europe was about. Effectively free or ne
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At this point, I have to ask, what are you arguing against?
My only argument is that the refineries currently do things to increase gasoline production. If demand for gasoline drops relative to 'everything else', they can stop doing this.
If availability of something else like jet fuel becomes a concern, they can start doing the same sort of processes, just tuned differently, to produce more of it.
I acknowledge that this is not a magic wand, that the amount of fraction you can increase it by is limited, and
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>My only argument is that the refineries currently do things to increase gasoline production. If demand for gasoline drops relative to 'everything else', they can stop doing this.
Most of the increase is going into kerosene. By the numbers. We're getting more than double avgas out of oil than there's kerosene in it. Part of it is obviously additives needed to stabilize the fuel further, but most of it is synthesis.
Gasoline increases are tiny in comparison. By the numbers you yourself provided.
>Still, a
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You know that to me, that video applies to you?
1. AVGas is a gas, it isn't kerosene or jet fuel. It is gasoline. Used in ICE engines propeller craft.
2, the fraction that is kerosene in crude oil is smaller and not expanded nearly as much as gasoline.
3. What part of 'we can make plastics using modern organics' implies a shift to preindustrial life? I'm talking about stuff like making oils using thermal depolymerization, plastic from soy, etc... Thoroughly post-industrial highly technological methods.
T
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>AVGas is a gas, it isn't kerosene or jet fuel. It is gasoline. Used in ICE engines propeller craft.
Holy fuck, you actually got the joke?
>the fraction that is kerosene in crude oil is smaller and not expanded nearly as much as gasoline.
Only about 100%. Compared to something like 20 percentage points of a gasoline. While being more viable overall, being the lightest liquid fraction. Math? Nah, neverhöörd.
>What part of 'we can make plastics using modern organics' implies a shift to preindus
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Holy fuck, you actually got the joke?
It was supposed to be a joke? I mean, at that level I could take all your posts as jokes.
Every single one of them. Like modern medicines? Sorry, can't have them any more for every man, storage cost issues. Modern computers? Nope. Personal mobility? Nope. Food safety? Enjoy your "at least four times a year" severe food poisoning events for even the richest people.
*Spock Eyebrow*
Why would there be storage cost issues for medicine? Medicine is high value enough that switching to a bioplastic or even glass wouldn't break the bank.
Modern computers don't use that much plastic either. Again, high value use of what plastic is in there. Maybe fewer polycarbonate windows and more plain steel sides, but then, I don't like windows on my computers anyways. Make the frame out of aluminu
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Oh, forgot to address the kerosene vs gasoline thing:
Motor gasoline is 47%. [energiesmedia.com]
Jet Fuel is 8%.
Increasing Jet fuel by 100% is still less than increasing gasoline by 20%.
We currently produce 19-20 gallons of gasoline and only 4-5 gallons of jet fuel.
Looking, the current increase of kerosene is closer to 2-5%. It isn't 100%.
We use a lot more gasoline than kerosene today.
Using incorrect stats doesn't help your cause. (Score:2)
First, EVs only tend to be around 1k pounds [torquenews.com] heavier than ICE equivalents. And even ICE cars weigh in at 3k-4k pounds these days, so it's more like a 30% weight increase, not a doubling.
Second, they only chew through tires if you drive them like they're sports cars.
Third, we don't really burn oil to make electricity in most of the USA and rest of the world, and the rate of that is dropping.
Currently, we use steam reformation techniques to increase the fractional distillation of oil that is gasoline. We sto
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The USA does not have issues with availability of charging infrastructure and it's trivial to add a L1 charger to most houses. This is about India. The USA has other reasons for its low EV adoption.
Re:How's the charging infrastructure? (Score:5, Informative)
In the US, unless you are in California and some other select cities, you very much DO indeed have problems with availability of charging infrastructure.
I live in New Orleans and according to the maps I've been given for publicly available charging stations, there are precious few of them....most of the ones listed are privately owned and on private property.
And you cannot discount the large number of of people in the US that rent, that have no access or permission to add any sort of charger at home, much less have off street parking to accommodate it.
That's at least 1/3 of the whole country....
There are other reasons as you alluded to...but, please don't discount the main reasons I listed.
You don't live in the US...I should think it would be a bit difficult for you to speak on the subject in an completely informed manner....?
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In the US, unless you are in California and some other select cities, you very much DO indeed have problems with availability of charging infrastructure.
My mom lives in a town of 11,000 people. One town over, in another town of a little less than 11,000 people, there's a Tesla Supercharger. There are multiple low-power chargers, and also a multi-stall non-Tesla DCFC station in town. This is more than a one-hour drive to the edge of the nearest thing that could be called a city.
If you don't have charging infrastructure, that's probably a sign that nobody owns EVs, so there's no demand for installing them.
I live in New Orleans and according to the maps I've been given for publicly available charging stations, there are precious few of them....most of the ones listed are privately owned and on private property.
All chargers, to within the margin of error, are pr
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Not really an option for much if not MOST of New Orleans proper....
Old city...most houses do NOT have off street parking, you park where you can when you come home at night, just like your other neighbors do...nothing is reserved.
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Not really an option for much if not MOST of New Orleans proper....
Old city...most houses do NOT have off street parking, you park where you can when you come home at night, just like your other neighbors do...nothing is reserved.
Yeah, that's a problem in a lot of cities that aren't really designed to handle cars. And unfortunately, either way, you're back to the government having to care enough about the issue to solve it, either by reserving parking places for residents so that they can install the chargers themselves or by paying for the mountains of infrastructure required. Nothing short of legislation will solve that problem.
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I think that in this case, you've just identified the use case for "lots" of L2 chargers. In cities where residents are less likely to have access to home charging, you instead install charging where they're likely to park during the day.
IE encourage their work, where they're more likely to have off-street parking, to install chargers. Have them in malls, around restaurants, movie theaters, grocery stores, etc... Anywhere somebody is likely to spend a few hours.
And the city should absolutely install char
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I think that in this case, you've just identified the use case for "lots" of L2 chargers. In cities where residents are less likely to have access to home charging, you instead install charging where they're likely to park during the day.
In theory, yes. In practice, no. Bear in mind that L2 chargers are likely to only be at 208V, so you get ~13% less power per amp of service than you would for a home L2 charger at 240V. That makes it even less likely that you'll get enough of a charge during short trips to break even with the energy used on your drive.
A half-hour grocery store trip might give you 7 or 8 miles of range, which is likely considerably less than your one-way energy use to the grocery store even if the actual distance is less
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That's what I said, basically: Chargers at work, right at the start.
As for L2 chargers, should still be around 20 miles of charge per hour, and I was trying to identify where people would be spending more than an hour at, potentially.
As for tapping your card - don't a lot of charging stations recognize the car itself, so doesn't need some sort of card tap?
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That's what I said, basically: Chargers at work, right at the start.
Fair enough. I was mostly disagreeing with the usefulness of the other places on your list — shopping malls, movie theaters, grocery stores, etc. A lot of cities have started requiring Tesla to put in a few ChargePoint L2 stations wherever they put in superchargers, and most of the ones I've seen have been unused every time I've looked. (There is one single Target store where I've seen people using them frequently; I have no idea what the difference is, unless maybe the folks using them are Target e
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Your point about primarily serving the employees does have a point - but in areas where people make longer stops, I think the point would be that the marginal cost for installing a few more chargers for potential customers should be encouraged, just for those "just in case" times.
Basically, a restaurant installs chargers for its employees but adds a few more for the customers. A top end L2 charger can provide 19.2kW, should be good for ~57 miles/hour. That might only take care of the trip over plus other
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Your point about primarily serving the employees does have a point - but in areas where people make longer stops, I think the point would be that the marginal cost for installing a few more chargers for potential customers should be encouraged, just for those "just in case" times.
Basically, a restaurant installs chargers for its employees but adds a few more for the customers. A top end L2 charger can provide 19.2kW, should be good for ~57 miles/hour.
It isn't just the charger. The car also has to support those charge speeds on AC, which most don't. My early Model X can charge at up to 72A at 240V, which is 17.3 kW. At 208V (commercial installation), that's just 15 kW. Current Tesla cars max out at 32A or 48A, depending on model, which at 208v is 6.7 kW or 10 kW, respectively.
In fact, most cars don't support charging at 19.2 kW, because exactly nobody wires up L2 chargers with dedicated 100A circuits to charge a car at 80A, and even if you wanted t
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That's the thing, as EVs expand, they can pay for the infrastructure upgrades via charging station fees. And companies on private property like employers and stores should pay for their own installs.
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In the US, unless you are in California and some other select cities, you very much DO indeed have problems with availability of charging infrastructure.
Not true anymore. It's the inverse, actually. If you live in most sane cities (i.e. not NYC), then there are no problems with fast charging: https://supercharge.info/map [supercharge.info]
I live in New Orleans and according to the maps I've been given for publicly available charging stations, there are precious few of them....most of the ones listed are privately owned and on private property.
For slow charging, you really need a charger at home or work.
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New Orleans is a VERY old city...and most homes there, rental or owned....do not have off street parking.
So, not really many good options for charging at home for most folks.
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New Orleans is a VERY old city...and most homes there, rental or owned....do not have off street parking.
Here in Seattle, the local utility is trialing chargers on electric poles. This can work in New Orleans. You're also overestimating the size of the old city in New Orleans, most of the city is quite new.
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I live here...it most certainly is NOT mostly new....
Hell, that's half its charm and why people want to live here.
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Where are you getting you stats?!?!
The ONLY way that might even come close....is if you are also including the suburbs around the city like Metairie, Kenner and Slidell.....
NOLA itself? No way.
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Where are you getting you stats?!?!
Parcel data repository, we license it from reGrid. And this is for the NOLA proper, not any satellite cities. Looking at the map, it seems about right. Places like Plum Orchard or Lakeview are pretty typical suburbs.
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In the US, unless you are in California and some other select cities, you very much DO indeed have problems with availability of charging infrastructure.
There's enough infrastructure that you can pass through almost anywhere in the lower 48, but there's certainly still a lot of places in this country where if you couldn't charge at home, there's nowhere close by to charge an EV.
Where my father lives in NC, the closest fast charger is 30 miles away. On the major highways from Florida, charging availability is fine, but if I want to drive around town after I'd arrived, I have to plug in at his place. I have a portable EVSE in my car. If he didn't own a ho
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A reason I went with a Tesla in 2018 was it was
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USA is not a developing country but still.
You'd wouldn't know it by how much people whine that putting in charging infrastructure is some sort of impossible undertaking that's never going to happen. Makes you wonder how all those gas stations got here in the first place.
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A lot of people didn't own a horse and putting a car inside your home (or your city) is much easier than putting a horse inside your home or your city. So, upgrading from tram to car didn't require disposing of stuff, first.
People bought their kerosene (there were a few steam-powered vehicles before cars) or petroleum in gallon drums. The first gas-stations and repair shops were built by the people selling cars. Once bowsers were installed, many places didn't have rail so a tanker-truck had to be drive
Re: How's the charging infrastructure? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: How's the charging infrastructure? (Score:4, Insightful)
This sounds like political witch hunt but not to worry, you are hereby pardoned!
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I'm perfectly happy with my healthcare and have been for most of my adult life.....especially without any govt involvement in it....
Lifetime US citizen.
That's like telling us your auto coverage is great because you've never had to file a claim or your car is always less than two years old.
Nobody that actually receives medical bills is impressed with the situation. We all get older, and you will need healthcare whether you like it or not.
For one thing, state and federal government has always been balls deep in your health insurance for your own good because otherwise they'd just take your money. You will always pick the cheapest insurance and the cheapest i
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Re: How's the charging infrastructure? (Score:3)
The only way they become a thing in India is if they have battery swap stations like China built out.
But that either means one primary company, or all of the companies agreeing to one battery standard. ... and likely increasing the cost of the cars a bit, as you don't have as much flexibility when designing them
And you actually need reliable power going to those stations
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It's not even that. Think about the actual use cases in India. Who actually buys vehicles in India? To even afford to buy a vehicle, someone has to be on the higher end of the income scale.
The USA has ~0.85 four-wheeled vehicles per person. India has 0.034 four-wheeled vehicles per person. [dataforindia.com] The average Indian is FAR more likely to walk, use public transportation, a motorcycle, or a moped to commute to a job, go for groceries, etc.
The reason to have a car in India is LITERALLY to show off that you're a
Re: How's the charging infrastructure? (Score:4, Interesting)
https://www.mxmoto.co/blogs/el... [mxmoto.co]
Re: How's the charging infrastructure? (Score:5, Insightful)
Seems like the next logical step is for more people to get an ebike, not an electric car.
Indeed. But a car is seen as a status symbol. India's gender imbalance is not as severe as China's, but enough to put pressure on young men to invest in status symbols to attract a GF/bride.
Another problem is that India spends way more on fossil fuel subsidies than on EV subsidies.
The fuel subsidies are especially stupid because India imports, like, 98% of its oil.
The first step should be to remove the fossil fuel subsidies and replace them with taxes.
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The first step should be to remove the fossil fuel subsidies and replace them with taxes.
That will totally get you elected.
Re: How's the charging infrastructure? (Score:2)
The reason the battery swap stations are so well used in China isn't personal use... it's taxis.
And those could be running for many hours every day, when a personal car is usually about commuting or errands.
I don't know what the standard is for taxis in India (sitting on the back of a motorcycle? Jitneys?), but there should be an attempt to electrify those first, busses, and last-mile delivery trucks (long distance will probably need to stay gas, or maybe hybrids)
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India has more cars than the USA has people. The demographics of India skew your comparison, the USA has a far higher urbanisation rate than India, and many people who live in cities drive cars - they have some phenomenal traffic jams as a result.
No owning a car is not an advertisement that you're a rich arsehole, it's a reflection of where you live and work. Indian cars do not cost the same as a Cybertruck or a F-150. In fact one of the more popular cars in India costs less than the moped the 17 year old n
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Re:How's the charging infrastructure? (Score:4, Informative)
I'm currently Bangalore and we experience multiple powercut a day. That can last from few seconds to few hours.
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I'm currently Bangalore and we experience multiple powercut a day.
Dispatchable demand from EVs can stabilize the grid and reduce power cuts.
Re: How's the charging infrastructure? (Score:2)
Who in India buys a car? It's a very, very small percentage of the population. EV subsidies are nice, but they don't make EVs cheaper to buy/operate than an ICE vehicle I suspect.
Is the electricity grid in India up to the task of recharging EVs as easily as an ICE vehicle can be fueled?
The issues in India go far, far beyond purchase price.
Re: How's the charging infrastructure? (Score:4, Informative)
It's a very, very small percentage of the population.
8% of Indian households own a car.
8% of 1.5B is 120 million people.
EV subsidies are nice
India also subsidizes gasoline.
Subsidies are a great way to buy votes, so all political parties promise them, and none dare to cut them.
Is the electricity grid in India up to the task of recharging EVs
EVs are dispatchable demand. They are mostly charged at night and add little to peak demand.
Re: How's the charging infrastructure? (Score:2)
Can you find 250kW DC fast chargers at many convenient locations when taking long trips? This might be the issue in India.
That's so adorable - you think the issue holding back EV adoption in India is because going on long trips is too inconvenient with an EV that relies on a public charging network?
You really think the average Indian takes enough long-distance road trips (defined as a trip that requires multiple charges to get from start to destination) that an EV doesn't make sense to them?
Re: How's the charging infrastructure? (Score:2)
What charging infrastructure?
I went to Tataâ(TM)s to try out their Nexon EV and asked about superchargers and their locations. A sheepish sales guy told me there was one next door but it didnâ(TM)t work.
Recently on Twitter/X an EV owner related his travails driving from Bangalore to Chennai. Long story short his battery went dead on the highway and he had to get towed. Note that Bangalore is allegedly one of the high tech aware cities in India.
The other problems are almost no apartment complexes h
Re: How's the charging infrastructure? (Score:2, Funny)
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They should maybe subsidize building of toilets
The Indian government spends billions of rupees on toilets.
But the root problem is cultural rather than economic.
and chargers
Chargers are not a significant barrier to EV adoption.
I've had an EV since 2015 and haven't used a public charger in years.
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Chargers are not a significant barrier to EV adoption.
I've had an EV since 2015 and haven't used a public charger in years.
Chargers are not a significant barrier to EV adoption for me.
FTFY
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Is it easy to add 10kW of power consumption to a home?
Sure. Let me just shinny up this pole [travellerspoint.com]. Hey! You want free cable while I'm up here?
We need the electrical equivalent ... (Score:3)
... of the Honda SuperCub for adoption of EVs in Asia to happen.
I'd bet the by far largest part of Indias and South East Asias economic activity runs off of small frame scooters and light motorcycles.
The Honda SuperCub is the prime example of what is needed. It's fuel efficiency is of the charts and second to none. A wire coat hanger and a box of paperclips is a viable source of spare parts and in a pinch you can fuel it with low grade paint thinner. It's design has remained basically unchanged since 1958, the motor was designed by Soichiro Honda himself and has been licensed and copied more than just about any other technical device in history. Most of small frame motorcycles worldwide have a powertrain based on its design. They last a lifetime and then some, you can get share parts in the most remote regions of the world and they're low on those the village smith might just whip up a new crank shaft for you from some rebar he has lying around or something like that. They're nigh indestructible and are valued family heritage even with current day half-nomad in Indias outback and remote afgan or mongol tribes.
The SuperCub alone has sold more than 115 million times, orders of magnitude more than any other powered vehicle. If you see any pictures of a family of 5 in Asia riding a motorcycle, it's very likely a SuperCub.
We need the equivalent of that in electric. Once that happens, adoption will happen with no problem. It might take a while because any monkey with a learning disability can repair Hondas ride with a pocket knife, but that would definitely be the litmus test for true EV adoption.
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We need the equivalent of that in electric.
It's called an e-Bike kit. Like with a motorized hub wheel. If the bike is mangled it can be moved to another bike.
Re:We need the electrical equivalent ... (Score:4, Informative)
Yep, eBikes are fantastic for efficiency, low pollution, and even range anxiety (20 mile range, and you are worried about going 22 miles one day? Pedal harder that one day, done!).
On the other hand they kind of suck for keeping weather off of you, for keeping warm when it is cold (ok, ok, “pedal harder, it’ll keep you warm”), and for keeping you dry when it rains. Basically they have many of the problems of regular bikes. Still they are vastly cheaper than even the cheapest of cars. I use to commute on the bike’s close relative a eScooter, mostly because a folding scooter was under $500 and a folding eBike was very much not (and to be fair it was partly a eBike/scooter commute, and partly a bus so I needed to fold the thing). It was in CA so snow wasn’t an issue, and rain while it was miserable was rarely an issue. I still borrowed my wife’s car a few times on some of the bad rain days (twice at her insistence, and a few more times because I got spoiled by not needing a full change of clothes once I got to work!)
So there might still be a place for an enclosed low cost car with minimal HVAC.
Apples and Oranges (Score:4, Informative)
Cheap Gas (Score:3)
India is one of the few countries that hasn't sanctioned Russia, meaning their gas is currently artificially cheap since they are one of the few remaining markets for Russian oil. I'm sure that doesn't help electric car sales.
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This poor sod's inadequacy complex is so bad that even in his compensation fantasies he has to imagine someone else will do it for him.