Driverless Bus Service In Scotland To Be Withdrawn Due To Lack of Interest (theguardian.com) 72
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Guardian: The UK's first driverless bus service, originally heralded as a breakthrough of global significance, is being withdrawn from service because too few passengers used it. The autonomous buses, operated by Stagecoach, have been running between Fife and Edinburgh along a 14-mile route over the Forth road bridge since May 2023 to relieve the heavy congestion which can bring traffic to a standstill.
The CAVForth service, a collaboration between Fusion Processing, the coach-building company Alexander Dennis, Napier University in Edinburgh and the Bristol Robotics Lab -- a joint venture between the University of Bristol and the University of the West of England -- was touted as the most ambitious and complex in the world. Built at an estimated cost of more than 6 million pounds, partly funded by the UK government, the fleet of five single-decker buses had the capacity to carry 10,000 passengers a week but needed two crew on board for safety reasons. Stagecoach said in a statement: "We are proud to have achieved a world first with our CAVForth autonomous bus service, demonstrating the potential for self-driving technology on a real-world registered timetable in East Scotland. Although passenger adoption did not meet expectations, the trial has significantly advanced the understanding of the operational and regulatory requirements for autonomous services, delivering what was expected from this demonstrator project. The partners remain committed to exploring new opportunities for self-driving technology in other areas across the UK, ensuring that this exciting innovation can play a transformative role in future transport networks."
The CAVForth service, a collaboration between Fusion Processing, the coach-building company Alexander Dennis, Napier University in Edinburgh and the Bristol Robotics Lab -- a joint venture between the University of Bristol and the University of the West of England -- was touted as the most ambitious and complex in the world. Built at an estimated cost of more than 6 million pounds, partly funded by the UK government, the fleet of five single-decker buses had the capacity to carry 10,000 passengers a week but needed two crew on board for safety reasons. Stagecoach said in a statement: "We are proud to have achieved a world first with our CAVForth autonomous bus service, demonstrating the potential for self-driving technology on a real-world registered timetable in East Scotland. Although passenger adoption did not meet expectations, the trial has significantly advanced the understanding of the operational and regulatory requirements for autonomous services, delivering what was expected from this demonstrator project. The partners remain committed to exploring new opportunities for self-driving technology in other areas across the UK, ensuring that this exciting innovation can play a transformative role in future transport networks."
one driver vs two safety personnel. (Score:4, Funny)
traditional bus: one employee, the driver
autonomous: two employees: safety personnel.
progress!
It's a bit like moving to the cloud... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a bit like moving to the cloud... We had a sysadmin managing our colocated rack servers, anything you asked him was done within the day. A new CTO brought his guys to move us to to the cloud (the old sysadmin quit as they were put above him). Yes, there are advantages with the cloud setup, but we somehow suddenly need 3 cloud engineers minimum to keep up! Well, we have 2 actually, but they definitely can't keep up...
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It's only until they have finished testing the technology.
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Actually...
Way back when: one driver, one conductor. One to do the actual driving, one to assist the passengers.
Cost-cutting: one driver. He can either drive the bus or assist passengers, not both at the same time.
This: two people to assist passengers.
So yeah, unless you take the very narrow view that progress is only through making things cheaper, I would indeed call this progress.
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Those two people aren't there, or hired, to assist the passengers. That's not their job and I doubt they do that.
They are they to monitor the bus.
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and for that price they could have just built extra lanes and really solved the problem, self- serving overpaid bureaucrats are our real problem, typical incompetence in a classist system
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>... built extra lanes ...
Hmmm, tricky on the Forth Road Bridge.
SD
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build another bridge, better yet allow people to work where they want and when they want or need to, and build more integrated communities where people don't need to commute as much
yes, the Netherlands are way ahead in this regard but developers still develop for profits rather than by what the people really need, there has to be less corruption and more responsibility in the construction 'business', too bad greed and classism are wrecking our communities
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There already is another bridge.. the Queensferry Crossing was completed in 2017 and was commissioned because the old bridge, the Forth Road Bridge that was built in the 1960s, was crumbling under the strain of all the traffic. Now all car and lorry traffic goes over the new bridge and only buses use the old one. There are already frequent buses that use the route the self driving bus was on but they also continue all the way to the city centre instead of an interchange on the outskirts so are actually u
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sounds like it's time the city planners developed elsewhere
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insults are a sure sign you don't have a reasonable response
trolls are assholes
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so said the anonymous abusive coward with no counter-argument
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Maybe, but probably just exasperation at a wrist-flip of a suggestion by you that you feel obligated to defend.
Googling how expensive it is to build a road (in the US): USA $5.34 million per mile. $3.34 million per km. Major road, 2 lanes, 12' wide each lane & 2 # 3' wide shoulder, no bridges, S.E. USA $ 6.04 million per mile.
So, a 14 mile route. Assume you CAN build a new lane, each way, to relieve the congestion. Assume it costs only HALF that (another country and all) - which is a stretch. So we h
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corrupt and classist governments and economies cannot provide cost effective infrastructure
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more bs, there are only so many people, so many cars and so many trips, if there was adequate infrastructure, there wouldn't be bottlenecks, ask any network engineer
so many self-serving greedy rich people in complete denial about a broken corrupt, classist and ineffective economy, welcome to the decline of civilization
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this is a consequence of growth, congestion is not caused by roads, it's caused by a lack of roads
easy to solve the problem, stop letting developers build monolithic tract developments, intermix land use types and provide adequate housing for all income groups (classes) without them having to commute in the first place.
we don't need or want Big Office Towers, distant industrial parks, vast corporate shopping centers full of big box chains all driven by commuting from large scale underserviced resident hous
Re:one driver vs two safety personnel. (Score:5, Informative)
The actual issue with this service was it didn't have a use. It went from a park and ride facility on one side of the river along motorways to a tram and train interchange that is on the outskirts of the city on the other side of the river and nowhere near anyone's destination. To actually get to the city centre you then needed to catch another bus, tram or train to complete your journey. The driverless technology wasn't up to actually driving on any regular roads and into the city so it was intended to test the technology under the least demanding conditions with no thought put into if anyone wanted to make that journey.
From the same park and ride facility you can already catch frequent buses or trains direct to the city centre and other areas without having to change half way. The only reason anyone would use this would have been for the novelty and even then with a safety driver still sitting in the driver seat it wasn't even everything it advertised.
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The actual issue with this service was it didn't have a use. It went from a park and ride facility on one side of the river along motorways to a tram and train interchange that is on the outskirts of the city on the other side of the river and nowhere near anyone's destination.
Exactly this. Far too often projects like this are a proverbial road to nowhere, they connect destinations people don't want to go.
Going from one transit hub to another transit hub, that's popular. Connecting the triangle of business hub, entertainment/shopping hub, residential hub, those are useful. The bigger the hub the better, like airports to hotels and airports to business centers, and airports to tourist destinations. Similarly hubs from major sports venues to residential park-and-ride for events.
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What would make you think that they are not removing the safety people when this is proven to work?
What problem exactly (Score:2)
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did the passengers have with the drivers on these busses?
That they weren't there, perchance?
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If they ran busses along a crowded motorway to ease congestion but nobody wanted to ride the bus, I'd say the problem is, people prefer to be in their own vehicle.
Especially if they didn't reserve a lane for the bus, and since there were only 5 of them I suppose they didn't. Perfect, now there's absolutely zero reason to ride that bus as you are still in the congestion moving along at exactly the same speed as the cars, except making more
Re: What problem exactly (Score:3)
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But they were. Each self-driving bus had two employees onboard.
And what is the cost to ride one of these new “self-driving” vehicles that requires not one but two employees aboard? The hell is the point in claiming self-driving again? Starting to believe price might have been a deterrent. Doesn’t sound like cheap new hardware.
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It was a demonstrator project, ie a PoC. Obviously long-term the aim was to move to operations without staff, but equally obviously, complex projects run in stages, and safety-critical projects with the public are over-engineered for caution at the outset.
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If you want to jump the traffic queues, probably the best option is to take the train. Depending on which specific stations you want to travel between, there's about 3 - 4 trains per hour.
Train from the south side to north side of the bridge takes 3 minutes and costs £3.30. That is what the driverless bus is competing with.
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If you want to jump the traffic queues, probably the best option is to take the train.
That's the second-best option. The best option is to live somewhere else, like Oslo.
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Except they forgot to ask the passengers if they wanted that.
And therein lies the rub with every so-called "improvement" for society. Did anyone ask society, or were they so caught u
Traffic “problems” (Score:2)
..along a 14-mile route over the Forth road bridge since May 2023 to relieve the heavy congestion which can bring traffic to a standstill.
Traffic problems, eh? I wonder how much of that congestion is being caused by RTO mandates after years of doing a job remotely?
Maybe some new competition mature enough to recognize the value-add of WFH will come along and gobble up your best talent. Seems to be all it takes these days.
Typical automobile first / shiny distraction strat (Score:2)
Re: Typical automobile first / shiny distraction s (Score:3)
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No, Singapore style force to get people out of cars will require fascism.
The congestion charge proponents like to point out Stockholm, but you can't even get a coffee for their charge ... it's just a nickel and dime tax which doesn't really influence behaviour.
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You know there are dozens and dozens of cities around Europe that give the lie to your assertions, right? Paris, Madrid, Munich, etc etc.
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As I said, you have to let traffic degrade to the level of inner parts of major cities.
Inner parts of major cities are forced into circumstances where public transport can become interesting, but to achieve the same thing outside them is an entirely different issue.
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You also said: "If you let the traffic degrade, that will also degrade deliveries, emergency services and even buses because you can't really use bus lanes everywhere", which implies you think that all these major European inner cities have problems with deliveries, emergency services and buses being slow and delayed, and that is just not true.
You're also rather missing the point that on that bridge where these AV buses were running, traffic is indeed already moving at a super-slow pace, comparable to foot
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Paris is pretty bad yes, https://www.tomtom.com/traffic... [tomtom.com]
Rush hour speed of buses and emergency vehicles isn't great. Delivery vans park "illegally" most of the time. Between rush hour traffic and problems parking, it makes the Paris metro a lot more interesting than it public transport is outside the city ... and people who choose to live there understand it has to be that way.
People who choose to live at lower density and drive a car have different expectations, less tolerance for the time inefficiency o
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That data looks completely bonkers. London is being listed as worse than Istanbul! Having spent a lot of time in both places, I can assure you that is not an accurate reflection of *anyone's* experience.
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The assholes here in Broward tried that.
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/2... [sun-sentinel.com]
Fuck them, with a splintered phone pole.
They did make some headway in syncrhonizing the traffic lights, that only took what -- 8 years? They tacked on a penny tax to make all sorts of traffic improvements but thanks to beurocratic hell, it took nearly a decade to execute.
Fuck them, again. Never again will I vote for a new tax to fix and old problem. (yes, i voted for the penny tax, because i was younger and stupider back then, and tho
Re:Typical automobile first / shiny distraction st (Score:4, Informative)
It is competing with a train that takes 3 minutes to do the crossing (on the nearby Forth Rail Bridge) and costs £3.30,
Re: Typical automobile first / shiny distraction s (Score:3)
I agree with the infrastructure bill criticism - although much of that is aimed at encouraging electric vehicle adoption. One of the most difficult aspects about US transportation is distance, both between cities and that associated with urban sprawl (something less common in Europe). Both of these make it tough to operate small local rail lines in much of the U.S. But it does exist in the larger urban areas (NYC's Metro North and NJTransit being one example). When people live a 45 min drive from their sub
Country where the Legend of the (Score:1)
...Headless Bus-Driver came from, possibly a variant of the Sleepy Hollow story. It's like selling hamburger grinders in India.
Re: Country where the Legend of the (Score:2)
And the bus stop joke! "Give me a quid or you're getting stabbed"
along a 14-mile route over the Forth road bridge (Score:4, Funny)
I think I see the problem.
Only a handful of people understand Forth
but those that do really like it.
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Ingoing hypothesis: Stagecoach fucked it (Score:4, Insightful)
Which is no surprise, because they've got form in being shite at things.
I suspect the basic problem is that they only ran 5 buses on a 14 mile route and I would be completely unsurprised to learn that the origin and destination stops and timings weren't integrated into other forms of public transport either, so that the passenger experience consisted of a long journey to a start point, waiting ages for the bus, a short-ish journey over the bridge, and arriving at a destination that wasn't convenient for anything and with no easy onward travel.
Re: Ingoing hypothesis: Stagecoach fucked it (Score:3)
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Sounds about right. Also with regards to this specific bus service, what problem was it trying to solve exactly?
Testing driver less buses.
Re:Ingoing hypothesis: Stagecoach fucked it (Score:5, Informative)
Edinburgh is a great city, but the public transport is a mess.
I would be completely unsurprised to learn that the origin and destination stops and timings weren't integrated into other forms of public transport
Almost certainly right. Also, in Edinburgh, you have various bus companies, but your ticket is only valid for one company. So if you need to change buses, you have to buy multiple tickets. This is also the city that nearly bankrupted itself installing a tram running from the airport to downtown, even though there was a perfectly good bus route doing the same thing. The tram isn't faster, and it is more expensive.
Driverless bus not the problem (Score:4, Insightful)
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Keltie Clippie (Score:1)
That's what you get for trying to mess with "Keltie Klippie"! Too obscure? :-)
Bureaucracy (Score:1)
Twisted (Score:2)
Oh they used to laugh at me
When I refused to ride
On all those double-decker buses
All because there was no driver on the top
\o/ (Score:1)
For me, part of the Stagecoach bus experience in Manchester UK is when the driver slams the doors closed as you are in mid-air whilst jumping onto the bus or drive towards you whilst you're crossing the road.
I suspect many enjoy this aspect of the Stagecoach experience which is why staff have been trained in this manner.
Unless the driverless buses exhibit these behaviours, they cannot expect the same level of interest.