Nissan and Honda Agree To Merge (msn.com) 123
Honda sketched plans for a drawn-out deal that amounts to a takeover of Nissan in all but name, as Japan's automakers struggle to keep up in an increasingly competitive global car industry. From a report: The two announced a tentative agreement Monday to set up a joint holding company that will aim to list shares in August 2026. While their executives called the transaction a merger, Honda will take the lead in forming the new entity and nominate a majority of its directors.
Nissan's partner Mitsubishi may also participate in the deal. Honda and Nissan both are having trouble contending with ascendant domestic automakers in China, which surpassed Japan as the world's largest car-exporting nation last year and is pulling further ahead in 2024. Honda Chief Executive Officer Toshihiro Mibe spoke to the level of level of difficulty ahead for the companies when he said during a press conference that their goal is to be competitive by 2030.
Nissan's partner Mitsubishi may also participate in the deal. Honda and Nissan both are having trouble contending with ascendant domestic automakers in China, which surpassed Japan as the world's largest car-exporting nation last year and is pulling further ahead in 2024. Honda Chief Executive Officer Toshihiro Mibe spoke to the level of level of difficulty ahead for the companies when he said during a press conference that their goal is to be competitive by 2030.
Mitsubishi is joining the sinking ship (Score:2)
This mornings news says that Mitsubishi is joining this merger.
This will either add weight to the sinking or ? help it float?
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I for one, welcome our new HondaNissanMitsubishi overlords!
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Will they smush together car names such as the Thundercougarfalconbird [fandom.com]?
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Honnibishi!
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Re: Mitsubishi is joining the sinking ship (Score:2)
I wonder why Renault isn't mentioned . I guess because Renault-Nissan was already a thing.
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I haven't read the latest, but as of a couple of days ago Renault was looking to sell their shares and Foxconn, of all companies, was trying to buy them.
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In the US market, merging has-beens usually just makes a bigger has-been. Maybe Japan is different? We'll see...
Re:Mitsubishi is joining the sinking ship (Score:5, Interesting)
Honda not a has-been (Score:2)
Honda is hardly a has-been, it's second only to Toyota In the small SUV space [goodcarbadcar.net]. The CR-V has been popular for a while.
Now Nissan, there I'd agree it's kind of a has-been. I never hear anyone talking about them anymore.
Re: Honda not a has-been (Score:2)
Nissan was a pioneer in EVs with the Leaf, but unfortunately did not follow through with a more diversified EV portfolio. Now they have been left behind.
None of these Japanese car companies merging or not, has made a serious effort in EVs. That's undoubtedly why some are struggling.
Re: Honda not a has-been (Score:4, Informative)
They also clung to the "battery thermal management isn't necessary" bullshit long after it was obvious it was terrible for longevity. Pioneering the space, and giving yourself a bad name in the space simultaneously. Good move.
I think their new SUV finally has a liquid-cooled battery. Only took them like... 15 years.
Re: Honda not a has-been (Score:2)
You don't need to tell me, I leased a 2012 Leaf. I returned it early. They should have put active cooling. And also ship a higher capacity battery. Still, it was a run car to drive. The range was just too limited. I switched to a 2015 Volt, which I still have. Post pandemic, I seldom use any gas. The engine maintenance ran twice in the last few months.
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It depends on if they do it smartly. For example, they should keep all the Honda engineers, as they build quality products that last. Nissan does not, and has not for some time.
However, Honda's styling has always been super conservative with a few exceptions, where Nissan is (for better or worse) more likely to take a risk on style and design. Sometimes that works out, and sometimes you get the Nissan Cube.
If they can keep the reliability up (and drastically increase reliability for Nissan) then this cou
Re: Mitsubishi is joining the sinking ship (Score:2)
The only part that Nissan is worse at than Honda is the transmission. Their CVTs are trash. Everything else is fine, albeit not spectacular like it used to be. Yes the corrosion protection has gone downhill but have you seen a Honda lately?
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They need to look at the Ratio Zero transmission, which is a geared CVT. It doesn't provide reverse, but it can do neutral to infinity. This ensures there is actual torque that can be handled by the CVT, and because the CVT is all gears and not belts, it should last significantly longer than the CVTs.
There is always going EV + range extender as well, which greatly simplifies the drivetrains.
Re: Mitsubishi is joining the sinking ship (Score:2)
It's not necessarily true that gears will work better than a belt. Nissan has had a lot of trouble while Subaru with a chain cvt hasn't had an excessive amount of problems related to the mechanical parts.
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It's not necessarily true that gears will work better than a belt. Nissan has had a lot of trouble while Subaru with a chain cvt hasn't had an excessive amount of problems related to the mechanical parts.
As a Subaru owner, I think you might be wrong. After my CVT threw a dashboard full of engine codes about 100 miles out of warranty, Subaru told me to pound sand. It seems they said the same to lots of people, because my local transmission repair guy got 3-4 of these per week. He said it was quite the deal and felt Subaru should have done a recall, since it was the same part that cause the transmissions to fail catastrophically....
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Is it just Mitsubishi's car division that is involved in this? They make a lot of other stuff besides cars.
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Probably
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The cars Mitsubishi sell in Australia (the Triton pickup truck, Pajaro Sport 4x4 and Outlander SUV in particular) are actually decent cars.
Nissan (Score:5, Interesting)
Nissan being the Chrysler of Japan, will their quality improve or will Honda's tank as a result? I think Honda has been slipping lately in regards to quality.
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Would be pity. My entity of Honda Jazz, purchased over 20 years ago brand new, was impressive hit of vehicle engineering. Still a keeper. Just bodywork could address slightly better our European challenges of weather. Layer or more of anti-corrosion purpose could be very meaningful. Anyway, Japanese engineering was top notch.
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My question exactly. Hondas are high quality, Nissans are at the bottom of the heap. However, that may be because of penny-pinching.
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Remember what happened to Mercedes Benz when they merged with Chrysler? Remember what was *supposed* to happen?
History will repeat I think.
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The T1N Dodge Sprinter wasn't a bad vehicle. The 5-banger was odd, but if one fixed the turbo resonator with a metal one, it could run on almost any jungle juice you could imagine (B100, etc.)
Now the newer ones are a different story. Just like any Mercedes, it runs very well... when it runs. However, when it has issues, you pay Mercedes prices for parts and Mercedes prices for service.
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I'm thinking the same thing. Of all the car makers, the most reliable I've had are Hondas, by far. Honda just knows how to do vehicles "right".
I hope quality improves. In general, Japanese brands are known for their reliability [1], so Mitsubishi and Nissan being under the Honda umbrella may not be a bad thing, especially if car technologies like good hybrid drivetrains transfer over. It may also make a useful product line, for example a Nissan Titan with a hybrid system similar to the Ford F-150 PowerB
Re: Nissan (Score:2)
The final result could be that it's a Honda platform with Nissan or Mitsubishi cosmetics.
I really hope Honda is the one who calls the shots (Score:5, Interesting)
I know TFS says it will, but in business trust absolutely no one.
If Nissan gets *any* control whatsoever, no matter how minor, it will be the end of Honda.
And I don't want Honda to go away.
I won't spill a single tear if Nissan dies, tho. They did this to themselves. Why should anyone step up to help them?
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As I noted in my earlier reply, Honda was not such a cooperative company. But maybe it's changed and is about to follow the government guidance the wrong way around?
<sound of flushing>?
Carlos Ghosn to the rescue (Score:3)
What they should do is forgive Ghosn and beg him to come back to make them profitable again.
He ripped out Nissan's cultural and traditional way of doing business and laid off about something like 20,000 workers. He went all management consultant on Nissan, Renault and Mitsubishi, but for a while there they all were really profitable. For a while. Then the deep cuts started showing, and none of them were building or innovating anything really exciting. Nissan/Infiniti in the US are seen as the worst current Japanese cars, with the lowest quality and the ugliest designs. It's kind of the Japanese version of Stellantis, which was also made profitable by closing plants, eliminating jobs and throwing quality out completely. That looks good on the books for the first 5 years, but eventually the whole thing needs saving again because unhappy workers don't make good products.
Breaking Toyota's control (Score:3)
When you look at why the Japanese are ignoring what customers like me have very specifically asked when we can have what we actually want, the blame fall on Toyota. Akio Toyoda has said I am wrong and I want an ICEV. My wallet has said fuck you if you don't want my money I will give it to someone who will give me what I actually want. Akio Toyoda and his head in the sand attitude to change has badly hurt the whole Japanese economy.
I really hope this merger goes a head and is the first step that leads to breaking Akio Toyoda's control of Japan. Honestly I think the Japanese automotive market has already left it to long and will never be the major power house they once were. I hope I'm wrong but the signs are not looking good for Japan.
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Nissan was a pioneer of EV technology, but failed to keep developing it. Honda had a decent first EV but the follow up is a weird step backwards.
The Japanese car industry in general has been slow to adopt EV technology, and is struggling to migrate supply chains. They invested a lot in hybrid systems and don't want to write that off.
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I suspect Akio means well and is worried about all the down chain suppliers that will be hurt by changing to BEVs but off shore buyers don't care.
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That's it, they have a big supply chain and much if it is going away as fossil engines do. The need to transition the supply chain is hurting them, while others just build new ones from scratch or are far more agile.
It's a shame because the Ariya, for example, is a pretty good car.
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Why exactly would the management at Honda, Nissan or Mitsubishi care what Akio Toyoda thinks any more than the management at General Motors cares what Jim Farley thinks?
Does this mean Nissan (Score:2)
will stop bullying the late Uzi Nissan to get the nissan.com domain?
What's going on with Honda?? (Score:2)
First, they partner with General Motors to make an EV.
Next, they merge with a crappy car manufacturer (Nissan).
Shameful.
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And for everyone saying these are Japanese companies You're being naive if you think the United States doesn't have any say in what other countries do, let alone what other countries do with businesses that have that big of a footprint in their country...
The US can't directly stop the merger, but they can prevent the imports from that company after the merger. I guess that's basically what you said...
You know we can file lawsuits (Score:2)
Not that we're going to. Unless the Japanese have the common sense to stop this it's probably going through. I don't think the state attorney general have enough power to stop it.
It's okay it's not as if the price of vehicles has been going up drastically over the years or that we aren't close to a crisis point where rank and file emplo
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Their vehicles sold here are almost all built here or in Mexico... with whom we have a trade agreement, which was signed by Trump, and is virtually identical to the prior trade agreement.
Where they're built doesn't matter if the parent company is no longer allowed to do business in your country.
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Look at this graph [asahi.com]. The auto export industry of China is eating Japan's lunch. This is that.
On a smaller scale, Tesla is a recent entrant but had the best-selling model in the world in 2023. Well, who's making room for that?
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And this process is echoing what happened a couple of decades ago when Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Mitsubishi, etc., were all ascendant and eating the US automakers' lunch.
After China, it will be Viet Nam, perhaps with other, currently minor East Asian players, or maybe South Africa.
Ever it was thus, as each commercial power-house becomes staid and sclerotic, and thus vulnerable to being out-competed.
Re:Why don't these Japanes companies (Score:5, Informative)
Nissan Leaf
Nissan Ariya
Subaru Solterra
Honda Prologue
Toyota bZ4X
Mitsubishi i-MiEV
Re:Why don't these Japanes companies (Score:5, Interesting)
The Solterra and bZ4X are the same car, a joint venture, and is absolute dogshit. It would have been a mediocre EV in 2014 but for the year it was released it's embarrassing... especially for Toyota who has decades of experience in electrified drivetrains but apparently couldn't be bothered to use any of that knowledge.
The i-MiEV has been completely out of production for a few years now, and for the past decade was only available in limited markets (e.g. basically Japan only). It's also disappointing in the specifications with under 100 mi range from the factory... again forgivable in 2009 but it was never improved upon.
The Prologue EV has gotten good reviews but is not competitively priced for what you get, so it's not super popular.
Only Nissan has any credibility as an EV manufacturer because they were the first (in partnership with Renault) to offer a mass-market and reasonably affordable EV. However despite 15 years of making them the LEAF didn't get a liquid cooled battery until 2025 and still has a Chademo port. That's a major miss so despite being very well priced they are not going to be first choice to anyone who understands what those words mean (especially re: Chademo port).
Japanese and European brands have fumbled the automotive market in almost exactly the same way that the US did decades ago. Now it's China's turn.
=Smidge=
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especially for Toyota who has decades of experience in electrified drivetrains but apparently couldn't be bothered to use any of that knowledge
Yep I've always found this deeply weird. The Prius motor is underpowered for an EV, but only by a factor of 2. It's just bizarre that Toyota didn't double the size of the motor, and drop the engine. They had a serviceable EV more or less ready to go in terms of the hard won knowledge of not making one that breaks. And today they have a plug in Prius with a decent mot
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Re: Why don't these Japanes companies (Score:2)
The prologue is not even a Honda. It's badge engineered GM. They were too cheap to even replace the controls so it feels like one, too, alienating Honda customers.
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In a way, it would be nice to see Chinese cars on US soil. The only ones are rebadged Buicks and Cadillacs like the Buick Envision. Just because everywhere else in the world is getting that choice, and something like the Chinese Yangwang U8 just puts anything from the US to shame in the SUV department. Even the BYD Shark puts almost all US pickups to shame.
IIRC, the US has the most limited and overpriced car selection in the world, where companies like VW refuse to sell vehicles that are useful or what i
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Australia has a more limited and overpriced car selection than the US, but at least we get the BYD and Polestar EV lineups, and the GWM Tank line to provide some competition in the 4WD space.
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It’s really striking how Nissan squandered the early mover advantage it had with the Leaf. It absolutely could have built out a usable tech base off that, and it ought to have been able to reduce costs faster than rivals. But it never happened
Re: Why don't these Japanes companies (Score:2)
The Leaf was rightly panned for its trash battery, so Nissan could not parlay that into additional sales.
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It was a great battery for commuting.
The average commute in the US is 30 minutes. If you can't charge at work, then that's not enough battery for the really real world for around half of commuters.
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That's not "making EVs", that's doing the bare minimum to qualify for sale in some markets. I like the Toyota example the best. A single car. One. Brand new to the market. Also you put it in the list twice since the Subaru Solterra is the same car. In the meantime the likes of VW has had more than 5 EVs in its line-up for 5+ years now.
The Japanese are woefully behind in the BEV market. None of the companies are in any shape or form taking EVs seriously, even if they do have one car in their lineup (and borr
Re:Why not EV's? (Score:2, Insightful)
Japan co's think in the shorter term hybrids & plug-in hybrids are the better bet, and hydrogen better in the long-term, at least in metropolitan areas. In Japan hydrogen is expanding, and they expect to be the trying ground for hydrogen tech.
Hydrogen is more efficient than EV, but requires the fueling infrastructure to be viable. In heavily populated countries it might fly. In spread-out countries like the US and Russia it may not be a good fit, though, as it's more feasible to use the existing electri
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I am trying to guess what you mean when you say H2 is more efficient. Maybe speed of refuelling? It’s all I can really imagine. Obviously, H2 is notoriously inefficient as a means of storing energy for a car compared to a BEV. Storage and piping it is also incredibly expensive and difficult, because it’s so embrittling and prone to leakage. (I always think of a Heinlein phrase along the lines of helium being “so agile it will migrate straight through a rubber seal” from Have Space Su
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If you really need the "drive to special place and pay some to fill your car" option then battery swap stations are better than hydrogen fueling stations. The
Re:Why not EV's? (Score:5, Informative)
> In Japan hydrogen is expanding, and they expect to be the trying ground for hydrogen tech.
Sales of Hydrogen vehicles in Japan are down 83% since 2021, selling just 422 vehicles nation wide in 2023. There's less than ten thousand HFCVs in the country despite being on sale since 2014. That's not what I'd call "expanding."
> Hydrogen is more efficient than EV
It takes roughly double the upstream energy input ("well to wheels") to drive a HFCV a given distance compared to an EV. That's not what I'd call "efficient."
> but requires the fueling infrastructure to be viable
Tesla, love 'em or hate 'em, had the good sense to invest heavily in EV infrastructure to support their product. To this day their supercharger network is the #1 (and IMHO the only) selling point. That's fading as other manufacturers are gaining access, though.
But Toyota, who is the biggest investor in HFCVs of the bunch, has invested nothing into fueling infrastructure for their product. None. Hydrogen in Japan was stillborn and never had a chance.
=Smidge=
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The real hope is this merger of Nissan and Honda can break Toyota's control of the Japanese auto industry and allow them the to refocus on what the market actually wants and to allow them to compe
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Why exactly would companies like Honda or Nissan or Mitsubishi or Subaru or Mazda care what Toyota is doing or what Toyota thinks is the way forward?
Or did Toyota use its huge size to influence Japanese government policy in favor of hydrogen over batteries and force the others to follow them that way?
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Re: Why not EV's? (Score:2)
We already tried hydrogen here in California and it already failed. Japan is delusional about it. It will never make sense. They want it to because they do not have the materials to make batteries on their little island. It never will.
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I've been eyeing a used Kia Niro but noticed that the Polestar 2 is almost the same price used. Twice the horsepower and the battery has an 8 year 100,000 mile factory warranty. It's so tempting.
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Don't fear the Chinese either. As a Polestar 2 owner myself I can vouch for the fact that the quality of the car is just like any other, actually better than some that I've driven.
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What part of the country are you in? I can find used Niros all day for $14k to $16k, the cheapest used 2021 Polestar 2 cars start at $30k
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You're misreading those sites. They all state that sales aren't "growing as fast as expected". The slump is only a slump in an upward trendline.
Car makers make money as much as cars and they will build was sells
No they won't. They will dictate to you what you should buy. They will market it as your best option and resist every possible pressure to create a product people themselves choose. The clever car companies follow the market, which is why the same company selling EVs as compliance cars in one country has a huge lineup of them in another country.
What Japan is doing i
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Hybrids (Score:3)
Re: Hybrids (Score:2)
Toyota finally figured out how to make a car handle ok just in time for nobody to care because none of them know how to drive any more, they just point and shoot and let the advanced driving features do the job for them. But they also figured out how to design a non-sports car that doesn't look like dog shit. The newest model of Prius looks spectacular.
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As for battery supply chain issues, that is a Japanese problem,
Well, we are talking about Japanese auto makers. That there are more batteries available in China is really irrelevant, they have to base their decisions on what is available to them where they are manufacturing cars.
They are really making excuses for failing to invest in the future tech they would need to survive.
Maybe, but they need to make their decisions on what batteries are available to them now. Right now that supply is limited. They seem to be able to sell a lot of hybrids which require batteries. So why should they waste the batteries needed to build 3 or more hybrids to build one BEV?
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As for "why should they waste the batterie
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I went down the road and brought what I wanted, a BEV.
And they sold at least 3 hybrids to 3 other people.
it would be to meet customer demand.
They did meet the demand of at least 3 customers, to accomplish that they failed to serve the demand of one.
If the alternative was for those three customers to buy an non-hyrbid ICE vehicle the emissions prevented would be far higher than selling you one EV.
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Why do you think the sales of Japanese cars are tanking at the same time Chinese cars are making record sales? Easy, China is selling cars th
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You should read about Toyota's batteries that are beginning production.
Current Teslas will have very little resale value in only two years.
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Re: ICE (Score:2)
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Meanwhile, Mazda has posted a couple of years of record sales in the US. With ICE cars.
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I wouldn't count the serial hybrid out yet. In places like Europe, where the biggest threat to the electric grid is Russia, not natural disasters, BEVs make sense, just because they have standardized chargers, and solid adoption. However, in the US, power for EVs isn't really guarenteed, and the Bitcoin mining companies as well as the AI companies get first dibs when more gigawatts come online. This is where serial hybrids or BEVs with range extenders come in. Not just to allow people to stop at a gas s
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The old saying was if your Honda has a problem keep driving it and it will fix itself.
Then they stopped caring about quality.
I have a Pilot with significant unibofy corrosion at only ten years old.
The twenty year old Toyota is fine in the same conditions.
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Yep, they lack the most on body. The rest of my Jazz 2003 is of beautiful design and engineering.
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Had a 2004 Pilot EX(? top of the line trim).
The driver's window kept falling off its internal support, and failing. Plus the stripping on the rear window fell out to some extent.
Got rid of it in 2016 (logic was "Paid for covers a multitude of sins").
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Given that the multiple repair jobs were done BY THE DEALER, I'm going to assume yes.
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Re:How did they F up the lead? (Score:5, Insightful)
Bean counters. They started listening to accountants on ways to save a few cents here and there.
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They've certainly made some efforts and a few sparks in the last couple decades, but not like it was.
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Didn't help that the designs were shifted to focus on some futuristic cyber-punk aesthetic while their price put them in the realm of more conservative (i.e. older) car buyers.
Re: How did they F up the lead? (Score:3)
This is exactly right. Honda tried to attract younger buyers with styling borrowed from The Transformers, but kept the prices too high to appeal to the market attracted by that styling.
Nissan basically stayed true to their roots but made a series of terrible CVTs that had people staying away from their vehicles in droves. Everything else about the vehicles is still at least as good as a Honda, and the handling is still superior, but most people can't drive worth shit anyway so that is wasted on the public.
Re: How did they F up the lead? (Score:2)
Add to it the headaches of emissions regulations killing a lot of fun cars.
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Honda used to be hot. What the F did they do wrong?
Japanese car makers all made huge bets on the wrong technology (hydrogen), but the world went to batteries, so they were all caught with their pants down, and now are unable to compete with BEVs around the world.
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Honda will take the lead in forming the new entity and nominate a majority of its directors.
So Honda is basically acquiring the corpse of Nissan? Let's just hope Nissan didn't just buy Honda with its own money like happened when Boeing acquired the corpse of McDonnell Douglas.
Foxconn was circling Nissan (and looked to have the resources to take control). From other reports, the Japanese government made an offer to Honda (that it could not refuse) in order to keep Nissan Japanese.