US Finalizes Rule To Effectively Ban Chinese Vehicles (theverge.com) 59
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Verge: The Biden administration finalized a new rule that would effectively ban all Chinese vehicles from the US under the auspices of blocking the "sale or import" of connected vehicle software from "countries of concern." The rule could have wide-ranging effects on big automakers, like Ford and GM, as well as smaller manufacturers like Polestar -- and even companies that don't produce cars, like Waymo. The rule covers everything that connects a vehicle to the outside world, such as Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, cellular, and satellite components. It also addresses concerns that technology like cameras, sensors, and onboard computers could be exploited by foreign adversaries to collect sensitive data about US citizens and infrastructure. And it would ban China from testing its self-driving cars on US soil.
"Cars today have cameras, microphones, GPS tracking, and other technologies connected to the internet," US Secretary of Commerce Gina Raimondo said in a statement. "It doesn't take much imagination to understand how a foreign adversary with access to this information could pose a serious risk to both our national security and the privacy of U.S. citizens. To address these national security concerns, the Commerce Department is taking targeted, proactive steps to keep [People's Republic of China] and Russian-manufactured technologies off American roads." The rules for prohibited software go into effect for model year 2027 vehicles, while the ban on hardware from China waits until model year 2030 vehicles. According to Reuters, the rules were updated from the original proposal to exempt vehicles weighing over 10,000 pounds, which would allow companies like BYD to continue to assemble electric buses in California. The Biden administration published a fact sheet with more information about this rule.
"[F]oreign adversary involvement in the supply chains of connected vehicles poses a significant threat in most cars on the road today, granting malign actors unfettered access to these connected systems and the data they collect," the White House said. "As PRC automakers aggressively seek to increase their presence in American and global automotive markets, through this final rule, President Biden is delivering on his commitment to secure critical American supply chains and protect our national security."
"Cars today have cameras, microphones, GPS tracking, and other technologies connected to the internet," US Secretary of Commerce Gina Raimondo said in a statement. "It doesn't take much imagination to understand how a foreign adversary with access to this information could pose a serious risk to both our national security and the privacy of U.S. citizens. To address these national security concerns, the Commerce Department is taking targeted, proactive steps to keep [People's Republic of China] and Russian-manufactured technologies off American roads." The rules for prohibited software go into effect for model year 2027 vehicles, while the ban on hardware from China waits until model year 2030 vehicles. According to Reuters, the rules were updated from the original proposal to exempt vehicles weighing over 10,000 pounds, which would allow companies like BYD to continue to assemble electric buses in California. The Biden administration published a fact sheet with more information about this rule.
"[F]oreign adversary involvement in the supply chains of connected vehicles poses a significant threat in most cars on the road today, granting malign actors unfettered access to these connected systems and the data they collect," the White House said. "As PRC automakers aggressively seek to increase their presence in American and global automotive markets, through this final rule, President Biden is delivering on his commitment to secure critical American supply chains and protect our national security."
Why limit this ban to China? (Score:5, Insightful)
And I for one would very much prefer to buy a car that does neither have nor need any network connection. If I want network connectivity in my car, I will bring in my own device.
China got caught using slave labor (Score:1, Interesting)
Now ordinarily the globalist types who run our country would be just fine with that but we need heavy industry in case of a war. If you ever wonder why it was so easy for the a
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I think the problem is it's not just supply chain (Score:2)
You would think the America first crowd around here would be really pissed off at the prospect of having American jobs taken by forced labor in China. But somehow that all goes out the window for them when the cool gadget is waived in front of them for a price they can afford...
Re:I think the problem is it's not just supply cha (Score:4, Insightful)
Plausible deniability (Score:1)
In this case entire factories are being run with slaves. It's too blindingly obvious. But they couldn't meet their price goals without those slaves.
When I was a kid historians like to te
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I think they hate history more than they hate math
It would depend on which history we're talking about. If it's fact-based history that coincides with easily observable reality, then yeah that's not really palatable to your average American.
Now if it's a nationalistic chest-thumping star-spangled-awesome version where Uncle Sam and his buddy GI Joe have been saving the world's ass for the last 100 years while completely paving over the parts including genocide, territorial expansionism via war, colonialism, race riots, lynchings, massacres, war crimes, in
Congratulations (Score:1)
It's always funny to watch them go on and on and on about safe spaces and then pass laws turning schools and colleges in the safe spaces where you can't teach actual American history and you have to pretend that slaves were all happy like in that boondocks episode.
I find slavery is a special kind of hot button issue with the right wing bec
Re:China got caught using slave labor (Score:4, Insightful)
Xiaomi can produce 40 EVs an hour, 1 every 76 seconds, using just robots.
The truth is, the US cannot even dream of competing with China, so they have to sanction and bully and tariff. Next you will saying "oh noes, Chynah subsidizes industries", whilst not only is corporate welfare the M.O. of the USA, but the US military had also been known to "assist" US business interests abroad (to put it mildly).
You're a straw manning (Score:1)
Strictly speaking I think the logical fallacy you're using is the Mott and Bailey but maybe I'm mixing that up with straw manning. Either way the point is you're creating a simple easily attacked position that I clearly do not hold to try and attack the actual point I
Re: China got caught using slave labor (Score:1)
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> China got caught using slave labor to build their EVs. There is absolutely no way for American Auto manufacturers to compete when the Chinese are using slave labor.
Do you mean prisoner slave labor?
I found this: "ASPI estimates at least 80,000 Uyghurs were transferred out of Xinjiang and assigned to factories in a range of supply chains including electronics, textiles, and automotives under a central government policy known as ‘Xinjiang Aid’. The report identified 27 factories in nine Chines
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There is absolutely no way for American Auto manufacturers to compete when the Chinese are using slave labor.
Where you been? Slavery's still legal in the US. California even had a constitutional amendment to ban the practice and it failed. The US 100% can use slave labor to compete. But if we want to continue being considered a first world country, we'd ban it instead.
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Beyond the moral outrage (Score:2)
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It's not like both intentionally builtin back-doors as well as security holes caused by sloppy/cheap programming could weaponize any vehicle, no matter where it came from.
And I for one would very much prefer to buy a car that does neither have nor need any network connection. If I want network connectivity in my car, I will bring in my own device.
This has nothing to do with espionage. You are being tracked every second of the day via your apps and mobile devices by a multitude of corporations many of whom aren't American. Ever wondered how Google knows about all those traffic jams? The US government doesn't have to blanket ban the import of Chinese cars, it could easily simply prohibit anybody in a security critical position from owning a Chinese car. All this is about is to keep affordable cars from the US public to protect uncompetitive dinosaurs
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Hey!
What the hell are you doing making perfect sense! Don't you know this is the Internet?
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It's very much about Tesla as well. Their knock off of the Xpeng G7 costs twice as much and isn't as good.
The West collectively lost this one, and it's hard to see how we are ever going to catch up now. It will take something huge like Toyota's solid state batteries to make up the gap, but those seem to be perpetually delayed and will probably be too expensive to matter.
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"It's not like both intentionally builtin back-doors as well as security holes caused by sloppy/cheap programming could weaponize any vehicle,"
I think I felt my IQ drop a little reading this. What a load of scaremongering based on nothing. China doesn't want to take command of your vehicle, the ones who would do that sort of thing to someone in the US... are in the US. Just ask Michael Hastings.
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All that said, I wish it were the "connectedness" that could be regulated and cut off, instead of the physical product. So sick of companies retaining the right and capability to reach into everything I've bought.
But, yeah, protectionism too.
Re:Why limit this ban to China? (Score:5, Informative)
You think? Chinese companies have really pushed forward with low-cost, simple EVs that really could fill a niche in the market here. These EVs have very few frills and certainly no internet connection or e-tainment system, nor are such things needed.
It's too bad they are effectively banned now because they would be ideal vehicles for young drivers. They are relatively cheap, easily have sufficient range for a teenager, cheap to operate and virtually no maintenance. Sweden has been doing this for several years successfully. Young new drivers typically drive small, cheap EVs.
North American auto makers offer nothing in this segment at all.
Re: Why limit this ban to China? (Score:2)
It seems a little fantastic. So itâ(TM)s cool for all the Japan companies to put in all the same data gathering stuff, because there is no one in Japan, not one person who will take the hundred mil for the NAS? Why not ban the data gathering.
Haha (Score:1, Funny)
USA: China, communism is bad ok? Capitalism is the way.
China: Ok.
USA: No not like that!
Protecting US manufacturers (Score:2)
Most US cars come with the same sort of equipment, and I think its naive to think China isn't able to get access to that. The primary goal is almost certainly protecting US manufacturers from lower cost imports
Re:Protecting US manufacturers (Score:5, Interesting)
Most US cars come with the same sort of equipment, and I think its naive to think China isn't able to get access to that. The primary goal is almost certainly protecting US manufacturers from lower cost imports
Personally, at least in the short term I trust the Chinese more than the tech bros. At least the Chinese aren't going to be pushing ads at me and selling me out to my insurance company, law enforcement, and data brokers. American-based companies with access to the kind of data in question have been known to do all of the above, and probably more as well.
In the long term, there's the thought that "Chinese tech is a Trojan horse that results in the downfall of the country". I think it's a legitimate consideration - but given the current US 'leadership', the Chinese might be the kinder, gentler dictatorial assholes.
Re:Protecting US manufacturers (Score:4, Interesting)
This guy gets it. We're so paranoid about foreign influence and maybe that's valid, but when Elon and Zuck and everyone else have their fingers in all of our lives we're not even remotely concerned? We embrace these goons into every aspect of our day to day, we celebrate them as successful billionaires and somehow that translates into trust that they are not actively screwing us over. They're now engineering themselves to have significant government influence by sucking up to the orange man who is honestly just reflecting the view of most Americans in thinking that having these guys in positions of power is actually a good thing. And yet we KNOW that they don't have our best interests at heart. It's either about money, power or ego. But I guess that's where we are at these days, embracing authority through subterfuge, masquerading as admiration and trust that is clearly not earned. /rant
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Re: Protecting US manufacturers (Score:2)
Amazing Rubicon we have silently crossed, where using the Internet, on the whole, is a liability when it was once an asset. That is sad.
There is no way to entrust your data to any overseas power tho. Think about it, Chinese EVs threaten Musk, shut it down for national security. TikTok threatens Silicon Valley, shut it down for national security. National security IS Silicon Valley. If not having your data threatens them, they will have it, direct from NSA listening to transnational traffic. If you want bett
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If you are really worried about the Chinese having access to your car, unplug the 4G antenna. Don't connect it to WiFi.
Works for TVs too. Decline the legal agreements, don't connect to WiFi, and they work as dumb displays.
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Some smart TVs have cell transmitters. They'll phone home no matter what. You pretty much have to get restaurant/bar displays.
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Really? A cellular modem someone else is paying for could be very useful.
Unfortunately the Internet thinks you're making that up. Have any model numbers?
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Honestly I wish I knew. I haven't purchased a TV in so long that I've never bothered to check, but according to what I've been told some TVs have simple transmitters for phoning home in case wifi is disabled. If I'm wrong then so be it. Eventually manufacturers may start selling TVs intended to utilizing 5G TV broadcasting standards, but I haven't seen any of those yet.
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You must be joking. Why wouldn't Chinese companies sell you out to American law enforcement? Money talks and bullshit walks.
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They can't sell data without confessing to gathering it. The data is worth pennies, but in addition for US companies they will be treated favorably for selling it, for Chinese companies suspicion they're collecting the data is a reason to ban them.
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They only need a warrant to compel. They're more than free to ask nicely with dollars in their hands.
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I hate to say this, but I'm in the same boat, and never thought I would think that. The US market is absolutely lackluster with extremely few choices and vehicles overpriced to the point that people feel like we are subsidizing the world's cars. Chinese automakers had something worth the price, decent, not looking like the same old almond, and in some cases, out-SUVing the SUVs, with an electric vehicle that had a V8 in it, and could be used as a boat.
Car choices suck in the US. Look at what Volkswagen s
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Small correction: The GM OnStar kill is for stolen vehicles, but I remember seeing more than one police chase video where the LEOs were able to kill the vehicle, even though the owner was driving it and it wasn't flagged as stolen. Problem is that, when control is taken away from the vehicle owner, becomes a slippery slope very quickly, and it isn't that short a slide from stopping a high speed chase to the government disabling vehicles because some bureaucrat consider your vehicle too much of a gas hog
I think we mix up tech Bros and oligarchs (Score:1)
But it irritates me the way these skeezy businessmen who have made most of their money off a combination of government subsid
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This. The cybersecurity angle may be true and I would like to see rules as well as technical requirements, like being able to monitor your own car's activity and stop it e.g. with your own firewall, applied to both domestic and foreign vehicles. It's easy to keep Chinese camera-equipped vehicles and phones out of secure facilities, I'm more interested in the personal security perspective. But this all started not because of cybersecurity, but because of competition. There's a guy in China, ForrestsAutoRevie [tiktok.com]
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They're protecting Japanese, Korean, and European manufacturers as well.
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I would rather my personal data be in the hands of the Chinese (who have no real reason to care about some random person or to abuse that data) than in the hands of someone like GM or Elon Musk who can sell it to insurance companies, hand it over to the cops without a warrant etc.
When you outlaw Chinese vehicles (Score:1)
Only outlaws will have Chinese vehicles.
Hoping this will result in modular cars (Score:3)
whereby China manufactures hardware modules that are shipped over to be assembled in the US. If they play their cards right and make de-facto standard(s), then car "manufacturing" will stop being dominated by conglomerates, increasing competition, bring prices down, and give consumers more choice. Local customizers and maybe even hobbyists can assemble what you want by mixing and matching modules.
Lego-ify!
Who needs Trump tariffs? (Score:2)
Who needs Trump's tariffs when Biden will outright ban Chinese vehicles?
Remember all of those people who said protectionism is bad for the US during the election? Who said Trump would destroy the economy? President Biden just threw those people under the bus. Now they can't claim that the economy would be better if the Democrats had won.
I guess it's just President Biden's way of repaying those folks in the Party who threw him under the bus.
Time for BYD to buy some DJT (Score:2)
I guess it's time for BYD and other Chinese automakers to buy a few million dollars of DJT [google.com], then quietly let Trump know that if he reverses the ban and smooths the way for sales in the US, they'll spend tens or hundreds of millions more. Maybe toss some cash into Trumpcoins, too.
Protecting American Profits (Score:2)
This has zero to do with protecting / preserving privacy of the average car buyer and
a whole lot more to do with not letting cheaper Chinese vehicles undermine American
automotive profits.
It's fairly common knowledge your ( new ) cars are spying on you already and folks
like insurance agencies are buying that data up in droves looking for any excuse to
increase your insurance premiums.
It's what happens to any device that has network connected audio, video and telemetry
capabilities. ( Eg: Smartphones fall into
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Here in Australia Chinese cars from brands like BYD, MG, LDV, Great Wall, Haval, Cherry and others are rapidly gaining in popularity thanks to their affordability and the fact that for the most part (*cough*LDV*cough*) they aren't heaps of junk anymore.
disconnected (Score:2)
Wait, does this mean the Chinese will sell cheap Electric cars here that don't track you wherever you go and don't report every detail back to base.
Where can I buy one ?