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China Transportation

US Finalizes Rule To Effectively Ban Chinese Vehicles (theverge.com) 108

An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Verge: The Biden administration finalized a new rule that would effectively ban all Chinese vehicles from the US under the auspices of blocking the "sale or import" of connected vehicle software from "countries of concern." The rule could have wide-ranging effects on big automakers, like Ford and GM, as well as smaller manufacturers like Polestar -- and even companies that don't produce cars, like Waymo. The rule covers everything that connects a vehicle to the outside world, such as Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, cellular, and satellite components. It also addresses concerns that technology like cameras, sensors, and onboard computers could be exploited by foreign adversaries to collect sensitive data about US citizens and infrastructure. And it would ban China from testing its self-driving cars on US soil.

"Cars today have cameras, microphones, GPS tracking, and other technologies connected to the internet," US Secretary of Commerce Gina Raimondo said in a statement. "It doesn't take much imagination to understand how a foreign adversary with access to this information could pose a serious risk to both our national security and the privacy of U.S. citizens. To address these national security concerns, the Commerce Department is taking targeted, proactive steps to keep [People's Republic of China] and Russian-manufactured technologies off American roads." The rules for prohibited software go into effect for model year 2027 vehicles, while the ban on hardware from China waits until model year 2030 vehicles. According to Reuters, the rules were updated from the original proposal to exempt vehicles weighing over 10,000 pounds, which would allow companies like BYD to continue to assemble electric buses in California.
The Biden administration published a fact sheet with more information about this rule.

"[F]oreign adversary involvement in the supply chains of connected vehicles poses a significant threat in most cars on the road today, granting malign actors unfettered access to these connected systems and the data they collect," the White House said. "As PRC automakers aggressively seek to increase their presence in American and global automotive markets, through this final rule, President Biden is delivering on his commitment to secure critical American supply chains and protect our national security."

US Finalizes Rule To Effectively Ban Chinese Vehicles

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  • by ffkom ( 3519199 ) on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @07:09PM (#65089329)
    It's not like both intentionally builtin back-doors as well as security holes caused by sloppy/cheap programming could weaponize any vehicle, no matter where it came from.

    And I for one would very much prefer to buy a car that does neither have nor need any network connection. If I want network connectivity in my car, I will bring in my own device.
    • It's not like both intentionally builtin back-doors as well as security holes caused by sloppy/cheap programming could weaponize any vehicle, no matter where it came from.

      And I for one would very much prefer to buy a car that does neither have nor need any network connection. If I want network connectivity in my car, I will bring in my own device.

      This has nothing to do with espionage. You are being tracked every second of the day via your apps and mobile devices by a multitude of corporations many of whom aren't American. Ever wondered how Google knows about all those traffic jams? The US government doesn't have to blanket ban the import of Chinese cars, it could easily simply prohibit anybody in a security critical position from owning a Chinese car. All this is about is to keep affordable cars from the US public to protect uncompetitive dinosaurs

      • Hey!

        What the hell are you doing making perfect sense! Don't you know this is the Internet?

      • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        It's very much about Tesla as well. Their knock off of the Xpeng G7 costs twice as much and isn't as good.

        The West collectively lost this one, and it's hard to see how we are ever going to catch up now. It will take something huge like Toyota's solid state batteries to make up the gap, but those seem to be perpetually delayed and will probably be too expensive to matter.

        • by shilly ( 142940 )

          Plus, for a long time Tesla intended to win outside the US with a smaller cheaper model ("Model 2"), as that's what would sell best in most of the world. And then for a combination of reasons, they gave up on it, although there's now some reheating of talk about it.

          US OEMs can't compete overseas very well without cars in the A and B segments. A Tesla supermini would have been very interesting and given things like the Renault 5 and Hyundai Inster and BYD Seagull some serious competition. But I doubt we'll s

          • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @02:50AM (#65089941) Homepage Journal

            The Model 2 is dead because Tesla and Panasonic couldn't get the cost of the batteries down enough. The Chinese manufacturers could, because they had a fundamentally better plan than Musk.

            Tesla also picked the wrong technology with cylindrical cells. They are not space efficient and cost more to produce, with very little benefit. The Koreans and the Chinese use blade cells. Better warranty too - 900,000km, or even lifetime on some packs.

            The other issue with the Model 2 is that Musk is banking on big future revenues from self driving subscriptions and robotaxi, which mean expensive sensor and computing suites in the cars. There's also the fact that neither will actually happen with current hardware, a massive liability and accounting black hole. His competitors concentrated on affordable stuff that actually works at the time the car is sold.

            • The warranty is the real kicker. The Koreans already have some experience with that e.g. Kia with a 7 year warranty, during which time your maintenance is more or less fixed-price. Even more important for batteries... even if as many as 1 in every 1000 batteries is faulty, the factory can afford to cover that. The consumer however cannot take a risk on a €12,000 item in his vehicle. It's by far the biggest worry for EV buyers, especially for second hand vehicles. The warranty wouldn't even have to
    • Re: (Score:2, Troll)

      by Rujiel ( 1632063 )

      "It's not like both intentionally builtin back-doors as well as security holes caused by sloppy/cheap programming could weaponize any vehicle,"

      I think I felt my IQ drop a little reading this. What a load of scaremongering based on nothing. China doesn't want to take command of your vehicle, the ones who would do that sort of thing to someone in the US... are in the US. Just ask Michael Hastings.

      • It's an untested premise until and unless we get in a shooting war with China. Which hopefully we won't. But if things were to get ugly, the knives would come out.

        All that said, I wish it were the "connectedness" that could be regulated and cut off, instead of the physical product. So sick of companies retaining the right and capability to reach into everything I've bought.

        But, yeah, protectionism too.

    • by caseih ( 160668 ) on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @08:23PM (#65089435)

      You think? Chinese companies have really pushed forward with low-cost, simple EVs that really could fill a niche in the market here. These EVs have very few frills and certainly no internet connection or e-tainment system, nor are such things needed.

      It's too bad they are effectively banned now because they would be ideal vehicles for young drivers. They are relatively cheap, easily have sufficient range for a teenager, cheap to operate and virtually no maintenance. Sweden has been doing this for several years successfully. Young new drivers typically drive small, cheap EVs.

      North American auto makers offer nothing in this segment at all.

      • Young new drivers typically drive small, cheap EVs.

        What cars are those? Swedish models? Chinese?

      • These EVs have very few frills and certainly no internet connection or e-tainment system, nor are such things needed.

        Which models are they? Are you talking about Chinese only variants of cars not available in the US or Europe?

        For the record a car like that would be illegal in Europe as all cars by law need an internet connection (the eCall regulation means all new cars need to have a button to connect them to emergency services which works independently of any other device).

    • It seems a little fantastic. So itâ(TM)s cool for all the Japan companies to put in all the same data gathering stuff, because there is no one in Japan, not one person who will take the hundred mil for the NAS? Why not ban the data gathering.

    • If I want network connectivity in my car, I will bring in my own device.

      I'm opposed to this mainly because I demand interconnectivity with my car. The problem with BYOD is that the car lasts longer than the device. I've plenty of experiences with apps that disappeared from the app store because they either weren't updated, or worse, were updated with an API level that made them incompatible. The last thing I need is my lovely interconnected system to die on me because the latest version of Android Auto doesn't work on Android version "you need a new phone".

      I won't buy a car wit

  • Haha (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward

    USA: China, communism is bad ok? Capitalism is the way.
    China: Ok.
    USA: No not like that!

  • Most US cars come with the same sort of equipment, and I think its naive to think China isn't able to get access to that. The primary goal is almost certainly protecting US manufacturers from lower cost imports

    • by jenningsthecat ( 1525947 ) on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @07:28PM (#65089371)

      Most US cars come with the same sort of equipment, and I think its naive to think China isn't able to get access to that. The primary goal is almost certainly protecting US manufacturers from lower cost imports

      Personally, at least in the short term I trust the Chinese more than the tech bros. At least the Chinese aren't going to be pushing ads at me and selling me out to my insurance company, law enforcement, and data brokers. American-based companies with access to the kind of data in question have been known to do all of the above, and probably more as well.

      In the long term, there's the thought that "Chinese tech is a Trojan horse that results in the downfall of the country". I think it's a legitimate consideration - but given the current US 'leadership', the Chinese might be the kinder, gentler dictatorial assholes.

      • by adfraggs ( 4718383 ) on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @07:47PM (#65089395)

        This guy gets it. We're so paranoid about foreign influence and maybe that's valid, but when Elon and Zuck and everyone else have their fingers in all of our lives we're not even remotely concerned? We embrace these goons into every aspect of our day to day, we celebrate them as successful billionaires and somehow that translates into trust that they are not actively screwing us over. They're now engineering themselves to have significant government influence by sucking up to the orange man who is honestly just reflecting the view of most Americans in thinking that having these guys in positions of power is actually a good thing. And yet we KNOW that they don't have our best interests at heart. It's either about money, power or ego. But I guess that's where we are at these days, embracing authority through subterfuge, masquerading as admiration and trust that is clearly not earned. /rant

      • by ddtmm ( 549094 )
        Be careful about what you take too casually. Trading off yourself off to avoid ads or for lower insurance premiums now may bite you and your whole country in the ass when you realize the end game was much bigger than your immediate little world. I would guess fighting for what you want is a little more work than you're willing to put in. Sit on your ass and you'll take it up the ass sooner or later.
      • Amazing Rubicon we have silently crossed, where using the Internet, on the whole, is a liability when it was once an asset. That is sad.

        There is no way to entrust your data to any overseas power tho. Think about it, Chinese EVs threaten Musk, shut it down for national security. TikTok threatens Silicon Valley, shut it down for national security. National security IS Silicon Valley. If not having your data threatens them, they will have it, direct from NSA listening to transnational traffic. If you want bett

      • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        If you are really worried about the Chinese having access to your car, unplug the 4G antenna. Don't connect it to WiFi.

        Works for TVs too. Decline the legal agreements, don't connect to WiFi, and they work as dumb displays.

        • Some smart TVs have cell transmitters. They'll phone home no matter what. You pretty much have to get restaurant/bar displays.

          • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

            Really? A cellular modem someone else is paying for could be very useful.

            Unfortunately the Internet thinks you're making that up. Have any model numbers?

            • Honestly I wish I knew. I haven't purchased a TV in so long that I've never bothered to check, but according to what I've been told some TVs have simple transmitters for phoning home in case wifi is disabled. If I'm wrong then so be it. Eventually manufacturers may start selling TVs intended to utilizing 5G TV broadcasting standards, but I haven't seen any of those yet.

              • according to what I've been told

                While doing toilet-based "research"?

                some TVs have simple transmitters for phoning home in case wifi is disabled

                Simple transmitters? Like a spark gap?

      • You must be joking. Why wouldn't Chinese companies sell you out to American law enforcement? Money talks and bullshit walks.

        • They can't sell data without confessing to gathering it. The data is worth pennies, but in addition for US companies they will be treated favorably for selling it, for Chinese companies suspicion they're collecting the data is a reason to ban them.

          • Currently it's legal for them to gather data. Nobody wants to pass laws against the practice for fear of drawing attention to domestic spying. So they'd rather try to ban an app then deal with the actual problem.

        • Indeed. US companies are more than happy to sell that information to them.
          They only need a warrant to compel. They're more than free to ask nicely with dollars in their hands.
      • by ctilsie242 ( 4841247 ) on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @09:14PM (#65089543)

        I hate to say this, but I'm in the same boat, and never thought I would think that. The US market is absolutely lackluster with extremely few choices and vehicles overpriced to the point that people feel like we are subsidizing the world's cars. Chinese automakers had something worth the price, decent, not looking like the same old almond, and in some cases, out-SUVing the SUVs, with an electric vehicle that had a V8 in it, and could be used as a boat.

        Car choices suck in the US. Look at what Volkswagen sells in Europe and other areas, and what they sell in the US. Hell, the Grand California would be an instant hit, because anything near that quality of vehicle costs 2-5 times as much. Pretty much the most exciting vehicle (which isn't much) coming out of a US company is the RAMCharger, just because it can be driven solely by the range extender.

        Yes, Biden did something that kept the domestic automakers from being undermined by better competition, but on the other hand, who can afford a $100,000 bare-bones pickup truck during a recession when all the tech people are looking for jobs? There are not any real quality choices. Back when US cars were just of abysmal quality, one could go Japanese and get something that wasn't as fast, but it would last you indefinitely. Now, there is nothing in the way of reliable vehicles. Tesla had promise, but with how unreliable the power grid is, one really wouldn't want to go that route.

        Then there is monitoring. We all were afraid of the big bad Chinese. Now we find that most automakers have been slurping up real time location data and selling to whomever comes. At least the PLA doesn't do that with the stuff they take, pretty much. We also were worried about the Chinese remotely disabling our cars. Nope. GM now allows police and such to remotely kill vehicles as they please.

        People scoffed at Chinese quality. However, the Buick Envision and the Cadillac models imported from China have had resounding reviews, while US quality is back on the skids with tons of recalls for basic things like tailgates not keeping closed.

        So, as an average American, what bad can the Chinese vehicles do that isn't wrought on us by our domestic brands? The domestic brands make vehicles offshore anyway, so supporting a domestic make isn't going to help out some auto workers, barring some relatively few models, and even then, the parts wind up coming from overseas anyway.

        • Small correction: The GM OnStar kill is for stolen vehicles, but I remember seeing more than one police chase video where the LEOs were able to kill the vehicle, even though the owner was driving it and it wasn't flagged as stolen. Problem is that, when control is taken away from the vehicle owner, becomes a slippery slope very quickly, and it isn't that short a slide from stopping a high speed chase to the government disabling vehicles because some bureaucrat consider your vehicle too much of a gas hog

        • by skam240 ( 789197 )

          ...who can afford a $100,000 bare-bones pickup truck...

          I've been baffled as to why a lot of people (not all) pay those prices along with the higher fuel and insurance prices for a couple decades now. I can think of near infinite better things to do with my money than buy such an expensive vehicle.

          I'd love it though if there were less giant trucks on the road. Less pollution and less unnecessarily large vehicles blocking my view of road conditions beyond the vehicle in front of me. Fuck do I hate driving behind people's giant trucks.

        • who can afford a $100,000 bare-bones pickup truck during a recession when all the tech people are looking for jobs? There are not any real quality choices.

          That's a feature, not a bug. There's a rather vocal faction who are decidedly anti-car for any number of reasons. Making cars unaffordable for the masses is a net positive even if they have to suffer with the optics of only the rich having cars.

          Having said that, the PLA may not be buying or selling data directly, but it would be foolish to assume they aren't selling through various shell companies. It's not as if there's any incentive for brokers to do any sort of due diligence on their partners.

      • Elon Musk couldn't run a path of exile 2 map without professional help. He's no tech bro He's a wannabe oligarch. I say wannabe because of America ever does become a Russian style oligarchy He's going to get tossed out a window in less than a week because he's a fat pasty idiot who can't beat a freaking path of exile 2 map let alone go toe to toe with an actual violent oligarch...

        But it irritates me the way these skeezy businessmen who have made most of their money off a combination of government subsid
      • The liberties you sell for convenience today will be repurchased by your children and grandchildren in blood.
      • They have concentration camps, you absolute muppet.
        • by jenningsthecat ( 1525947 ) on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @08:58AM (#65090471)

          They have concentration camps, you absolute muppet.

          Fair comment, tho' I don't think I'm a Muppet. So to be clear, there's no way I'd want to live in China, or in some place which is under Chinese rule. I was simply saying this: if I have a choice between a) having my privacy invaded by folks half a world away who don't have governmental control over me, and b) having it invaded by people who can ruin my life in any of a dozen ways, I'll pick the former, TYVM.

      • At least the Chinese aren't going to be pushing ads at me and selling me out to my insurance company, law enforcement, and data brokers

        On what evidence do you say this? China is capitalistic as any nation, they will absolutely sell that data to anyone who is interested.

        given the current US 'leadership', the Chinese might be the kinder, gentler dictatorial assholes.

        wat

    • by mattr ( 78516 )

      This. The cybersecurity angle may be true and I would like to see rules as well as technical requirements, like being able to monitor your own car's activity and stop it e.g. with your own firewall, applied to both domestic and foreign vehicles. It's easy to keep Chinese camera-equipped vehicles and phones out of secure facilities, I'm more interested in the personal security perspective. But this all started not because of cybersecurity, but because of competition. There's a guy in China, ForrestsAutoRevie [tiktok.com]

    • They're protecting Japanese, Korean, and European manufacturers as well.

    • by jonwil ( 467024 )

      I would rather my personal data be in the hands of the Chinese (who have no real reason to care about some random person or to abuse that data) than in the hands of someone like GM or Elon Musk who can sell it to insurance companies, hand it over to the cops without a warrant etc.

  • Only outlaws will have Chinese vehicles.

  • by Tablizer ( 95088 ) on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @08:52PM (#65089483) Journal

    whereby China manufactures hardware modules that are shipped over to be assembled in the US. If they play their cards right and make de-facto standard(s), then car "manufacturing" will stop being dominated by conglomerates, increasing competition, bring prices down, and give consumers more choice. Local customizers and maybe even hobbyists can assemble what you want by mixing and matching modules.

    Lego-ify!

  • Who needs Trump's tariffs when Biden will outright ban Chinese vehicles?

    Remember all of those people who said protectionism is bad for the US during the election? Who said Trump would destroy the economy? President Biden just threw those people under the bus. Now they can't claim that the economy would be better if the Democrats had won.

    I guess it's just President Biden's way of repaying those folks in the Party who threw him under the bus.

    • by skam240 ( 789197 )

      What are you talking about? I'm not a fan of it but banning all imports of Chinese cars is miles different from putting a 20% tariff on ALL foreign made goods and 60% tariffs on ALL Chinese made goods as Trump has claimed he wants to do.

      I mean, look around. How many Chinese cars do you see on the road right now? Pretty much zero, right? So all this ban will do is continue things as they are.

  • I guess it's time for BYD and other Chinese automakers to buy a few million dollars of DJT [google.com], then quietly let Trump know that if he reverses the ban and smooths the way for sales in the US, they'll spend tens or hundreds of millions more. Maybe toss some cash into Trumpcoins, too.

  • by nehumanuscrede ( 624750 ) on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @10:33PM (#65089641)

    This has zero to do with protecting / preserving privacy of the average car buyer and
    a whole lot more to do with not letting cheaper Chinese vehicles undermine American
    automotive profits.

    It's fairly common knowledge your ( new ) cars are spying on you already and folks
    like insurance agencies are buying that data up in droves looking for any excuse to
    increase your insurance premiums.

    It's what happens to any device that has network connected audio, video and telemetry
    capabilities. ( Eg: Smartphones fall into this category as well ) Our own government won't
    ban the practice because that data is far too tempting for them to keep their hands off of it.

      Privacy laws be damned.

    To be honest, I would rather the Chinese have access to my driving habits than our own
    Government and the corrupt business practice of using telemetry data on private citizens
    in order to boost their profits :|

    China isn't going to raise my insurance rates or give two shits about what stores I visit.

    • by jonwil ( 467024 )

      Here in Australia Chinese cars from brands like BYD, MG, LDV, Great Wall, Haval, Cherry and others are rapidly gaining in popularity thanks to their affordability and the fact that for the most part (*cough*LDV*cough*) they aren't heaps of junk anymore.

  • by bugs2squash ( 1132591 ) on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @10:47PM (#65089669)

    Wait, does this mean the Chinese will sell cheap Electric cars here that don't track you wherever you go and don't report every detail back to base.

    Where can I buy one ?

  • by havana9 ( 101033 ) on Wednesday January 15, 2025 @02:56AM (#65089943)
    If USA it's concerned about this, surely the new Trump administration is going to be OK if EU does the same banning non-EU non-GDPR compliant automakers.
  • That doesn't make sense. I'm sure the reason is that a California lawmaker took money from BYD, but what possible justification could there have been?
  • Just contract with American software companies to make the software that runs the vehicle.

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