Brembo's New Brakes Cut Particulate Emissions By 90 Percent (arstechnica.com) 77
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: As electric vehicles reduce car exhaust as a source of particulate emissions, people are increasingly focusing on other vehicular sources of pollution that won't go away with electrification. Tires are one of them, particularly as we grapple with overweight EVs with tire-shredding torque. And brakes are another -- even an EV with regenerative braking will occasionally need to use its friction brakes, after all. Over in Europe, the people responsible for writing regulations have taken this into consideration with the upcoming Euro 7 standard, which sets new limits on 10- and 2.5-micron particulate emissions on all new vehicles -- including EVs -- starting next year. And to help OEMs achieve that target, Brembo has developed a new brake and pad set called Greentell that it says cuts brake dust emissions by 90 percent, improving durability in the process.
[...] Brembo investigated a range of solutions before settling on using laser metal deposition. Physical vapor deposition, as used as a durability coating for wristwatches and firearms, was ruled out due to cost. "So it can be used for some special application or some small pieces, but when you are speaking about 20 kilos of cast iron, PVD is not the right solution. LMD is a technology that [has been] available... [for] years, but [it hasn't yet been] applicable in a high volume application. So the goal is to find the best compromise between performance and process," [Fabiano Carminati, VP of disc technical development at Brembo] told me. Together with the reduction in brake dust, there's an 80 percent reduction in surface corrosion compared to conventional brakes, but they won't last forever. "The thickness of the layer that we apply is not so high -- we apply just 100-120 microns. That means that the disk is not a lifetime disk," he said. That said, Greentell brakes should need replacing less often, and while that's not entirely in Brembo's best financial interests, neither is not being able to offer its customers a Euro 7-compliant product.
[...] Brembo investigated a range of solutions before settling on using laser metal deposition. Physical vapor deposition, as used as a durability coating for wristwatches and firearms, was ruled out due to cost. "So it can be used for some special application or some small pieces, but when you are speaking about 20 kilos of cast iron, PVD is not the right solution. LMD is a technology that [has been] available... [for] years, but [it hasn't yet been] applicable in a high volume application. So the goal is to find the best compromise between performance and process," [Fabiano Carminati, VP of disc technical development at Brembo] told me. Together with the reduction in brake dust, there's an 80 percent reduction in surface corrosion compared to conventional brakes, but they won't last forever. "The thickness of the layer that we apply is not so high -- we apply just 100-120 microns. That means that the disk is not a lifetime disk," he said. That said, Greentell brakes should need replacing less often, and while that's not entirely in Brembo's best financial interests, neither is not being able to offer its customers a Euro 7-compliant product.
If they cost 1/10 of a cent more (Score:1)
And we are all walking around with a plastic spoon's worth of plastic in our brains because it's cheap and easy and profitable.
We can debate why we can't have nice things but the fact of the matter is we can't have nice things.
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Why not admit that current prices are psychological noise, not dictated mechanically by some ivory-tower supply-and-demand efficiency model, and print money faster than prices rise to pay for less harmful tech?
Re: If they cost 1/10 of a cent more (Score:1)
Maybe but maybe not. (Score:5, Informative)
I think you missed this part from the summary:
Over in Europe, the people responsible for writing regulations have taken this into consideration with the upcoming Euro 7 standard, which sets new limits on 10- and 2.5-micron particulate emissions on all new vehicles -- including EVs -- starting next year.
The implication seems to be that regulation is driving this particular advancement. With such a vast improvement, regulators may tighten the restrictions as it's been proven possible.
I'm 100% on board with the concept of least-cost dominating but my plastic spoon filled brain seems to think that regulation could make this a reality... for at least some of the world.
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EVs produce a lot less brake dust anyway, since most of the braking is regen rather than friction. Hopefully these new ones last as well as the older designs, where people would regularly get to 100k miles on their original brake pads. In fact often the main reason for replacing them was deterioration due to age, rather than them wearing down, so making them more resistant to corrosion would be good.
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EVs produce a lot less brake dust anyway, since most of the braking is regen rather than friction.
That's a lie. https://web-archive.oecd.org/2... [oecd.org]
Lightweight electric vehicles with a driving range of about 100 miles (161 km) emit an estimated 11-13% less PM2.5 than conventional vehicles in the same segment. However, heavier electric vehicles with battery packs enabling a range of 300 miles (483 km) emit an estimated 3-8% more PM2.5 than equivalent conventional vehicles.
Even if you focus on the vehicles with frivolously short ranges, 11-13% is not "a lot".
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You didn't understand what you just cited.
EVs do produce less brake dust. The heavy ones still produce more particulates, because they produce more tire dust because they are heavier. They also tend to have grippier tires which wear away faster; they use softer compounds so that they can make use of their torque. The words "brake dust" only appear in that article once, and only as an example of parts of the vehicle which produce particulates.
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PM2.5 is not brake dust. That's just the particle size as captured by roadside air quality monitors; it's a mix of all airborne particles not attributable to emissions (e.g. soot) that would not be airborne without vehicular traffic stirring it up.
"...emerging evidence shows that particulate matter is also emitted from the wearing down of tyres, brakes, and road surfaces, and from the resuspension of road dust. "
"Although re-emissions may be present in road dust, it also consists of particles that are not r
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I posted Cambridge University's debunking of that a day or two ago, but I don't need to go find the link because your one is only claiming total PM2.5, not just brake dust.
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I never use the brakes in my Tesla.
Regenerative braking (where energy is put back into the battery) allows me to drive and slow even to a stop without ever using my brakes.
(OK, occasionally I do have to use the brakes when some bozo pulls out in front of me.)
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I'm the same, although to be fair we both do use the brakes a tiny bit. Regen can't bring the car to a complete stop, so the friction brakes engage right at the last moment.
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My Tesla does come to a complete stop with one pedal driving. The car will apply the brakes after the car has stopped to prevent rolling.
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I know it comes to a stop with one pedal, what I'm saying is that the car applies the friction brakes at the last moment in one pedal mode. All EVs do it, they have "blended" brakes where regen is used until either more braking force is needed than regen can manage, or the speed is too low for regen to work. At that point they begin applying friction brakes automatically and seamlessly, so you don't even notice if it is working properly.
The Nissan eForce or whatever it's called takes it a step further using
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What about costs? Sure, this technology sounds exciting, but how much would it cost?
It's even cheaper than the original. Prove me wrong. ;)
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It's even cheaper than the original. Prove me wrong.
It would be available without regulation and/or in markets that don't require it. Which is not the case.
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The regulation is entirely coincidental and it was just announced it was developed. I'm sure it will actually is half the cost of the original. Prove me wrong.
Re:If they cost 1/10 of a cent more (Score:5, Informative)
Once again, your hilarious US-centric worldview is hilarious. This is a brake set developed by an Italian manufacturer, presented at the Shanghai auto show, in response to new EU regulations that make these particular nice things (or an equivalent) a frigging *obligation*, not something "we can't have". Maybe they won't come to the US, but they absolutely will come to the EU, because every European new car is going to need to meet Euro 7 particulate emission standards.
You've been whining for months now that no-one cares about your blessed tire and brake particulate emissions. The EU cares so much it's written laws to reduce the problem, and manufacturers are responding by bringing new products to market, and your last resort is to say that this thing that's happening, isn't happening. You silly billy
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You've been whining for months now that no-one cares about your blessed tire and brake particulate emissions.
His goal is to get rid of cars altogether, so we can have mass transit.
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I know, but it’s a simpleton’s approach to achieving his end goal.
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They will sell in Europe, because there is an incentive to be Euro 7 emissions compliant.
USA still no plans to ban leaded avgas until 2031, and even then it's only California.
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It pains me that this gets modded insightful :D.
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The only thing that stopped that was newer tech that was cheaper and more performant.
False. TEL remains to this day the cheapest way to increase fuel octane. It's far cheaper to add TEL to the fuel mix than it is to run a reforming process at a refinery. What caused TEL to be abandoned is that it was poisonous to catalytic converters which were mandated long ago in the USA. For most of the 70s, 80s, and parts of the 90s, leaded fuel was cheaper to produce and cheaper at the pump. It was only in the 90s that leaded fuel started getting more expensive at the pump (due to economy logistics of
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The only thing that stopped that was newer tech that was cheaper and more performant.
False. TEL remains to this day the cheapest way to increase fuel octane. It's far cheaper to add TEL to the fuel mix than it is to run a reforming process at a refinery.
How is that false? The reason for higher octane fuel is the anti-knocking properties. Knock sensors and other sensors combined with car computers controlling fuel/air mix, etc. allow lower octane fuel to perform better without engine knock.
Also, I'm pretty sure ethanol is cheaper than TEL for increasing octane.
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This is for Europe. US consumers will happily continue to get poisoned.
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You did not get that right, try again.
Ars to here (Score:2)
Does it seem like a significant number of Ars articles are just gratuitously pasted in here? And then slashdot harvests views of people commenting about a website that really does reporting.
Elephant in the room (Score:4, Funny)
TFS discusses all of those complex engineering tradeoffs, but forgets to mention Brembo's most important priority: Can these brakes still be painted a bright neon color that screams out through the wheel spokes and clashes with the car's body paint?
If not, this new development is a non-starter.
They'll be neon green (Score:2)
to indicate that you are a person who cares a lot about the environment.
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I'm perfectly aware of the difference.
And as I pointed out: The calipers are of primary importance. If these pads somehow interfere with that, then they're toast.
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Too bad you don't know the difference between brake calipers and brake pads.
Wasn't this article about brake rotors?
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Can these brakes still be painted a bright neon color that screams out through the wheel spokes and clashes with the car's body paint?
Hey man, it's greenTELL, not greenhide. Hells yes it will be visible from the moon.
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TFS discusses all of those complex engineering tradeoffs, but forgets to mention Brembo's most important priority: Can these brakes still be painted a bright neon color
Brembo is the world's largest manufacturer of brake parts. The vast majority of their calipers are not painted in bright colors, just like most seats made by Recaro don't say Recaro on them.
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So, we got a big success! Hooray! Nope. This happens every single time.
Erm, yes. This process is called "improving". It's something both developed and developing societies drive to do continuously.
Re: Moving the goalposts. Again. (Score:2)
I'm not even clear this represents an increase in cost of ownership. They explicitly mention avoiding some options as cost prohibitive. It may cost more, but also the pads are longer lived so you should need to buy fewer of them.
We aren't taking about a super expensive part anyway, so it would take a pretty big hit to be a noticeable hit to overall cost.
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We aren't taking about a super expensive part anyway, so it would take a pretty big hit to be a noticeable hit to overall cost.
I couldn't find any numbers insofar as costs for this new technology, but having dealt with a lot of different brake disk and pad types in racing I can make an educated guess that you are wrong - this will cost substantially more than the existing solution. It is likely less than carbon ceramic brakes, but it still can be prohibitively expensive.
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We aren't taking about a super expensive part anyway, so it would take a pretty big hit to be a noticeable hit to overall cost.
I couldn't find any numbers insofar as costs for this new technology, but having dealt with a lot of different brake disk and pad types in racing I can make an educated guess that you are wrong - this will cost substantially more than the existing solution. It is likely less than carbon ceramic brakes, but it still can be prohibitively expensive.
Am I missing something? I know the cost of Carbon-ceramic brake sets is absurd, but the pads seem to be only $145 per wheel [racing-products.com].
Either way, normal brake pads cost $150 per axle, on average, so even if you quadrupled the cost of the brake pads, it would still be lost in the noise relative to the total cost of the car.
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How exactly does this harm you? Brake parts are consumables. By the sound of it, these will probably offset any increase in price through longer life, so it doesn't seem like a real problem.
As for the jet travel. Hopefully we can reach a point where that does less environmental damage. The thing I am wondering is, if someone develops a long range electric plane with comparable speed to a jet, will you complain about how "they" got rid of fossil fuel powered jets too?
Already obsolete (Score:2)
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It is nice for emergency stops though.
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No it isn't. Dynamic brakes aren't used as emergency brakes in trains. For one thing, they only apply to driven wheels, and hence only work with the adhesive weight and traction of the loco itself, and not the whole train. They also lose effectiveness at low speeds (they're only good down to about 5 km/h) and won't actually bring the train to a standstill. On top of that, they depend on
Practical aspect to this (Score:1)
Beyond the brakes lasting longer, there is a very practical aspect to far less brake dust that is really nice - if you ever clean your wheels these would result in a LOT less work. I used to have a car with white wheels and even just minimal driving would get them pretty dirty.
Great for certification tests (Score:4, Insightful)
The surface coating will decrease emissions during the certification tests. But in normal usage, it will wear off and the brakes will emit as much particulate matter as normal brakes.
This is basically PSCB, which "last thirty percent longer than uncoated iron rotors". https://www.porschestevenscree... [porschestevenscreek.com]
Reminds me of Nikasil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
laser metal deposition? 20 kilo? disks? (Score:2)
Did someone smoke too much? Brake disks arent shedding particulates, its the _pads_!
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Though with this change. Will they still make enough friction to clean the disks from rust?
Rust on the disks is a real problem on EV's because they use the physical disks so little.
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They most likely are, but stainless steel is actually not that stainless. Even the musky cybertruck tends to rust.
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And what causes the pads to shed particles? Friction with the rotors.
So by altering the surface finish and properties of the rotor, you can reduce the wear (and particle shedding) from the pads without sacrificing brake performance.
They also have bespoke pads for it too, btw.
=Smidge=
Brakes are not an issue for EVs (Score:3)
I used my brakes once yesterday (when someone cut me off which triggered the assisted breaking function). I can see on my dash when the brake calipers engage, the UI bar showing how much energy is going into battery through regen braking switches to orange to indicate it's maxed out and the calipers assist.
That said if you drive like an idiot maybe you need this on an EV.
It's still a good thing to have for other cars though, diesel and gasoline are here for any foreseeable future, so bonus points that they put some focus their as well. PM2.5 was 68ug/m^3 outside today despite weather conditions being generally good for air quality. It's good to drive a luxury car with a HEPA filter, but that does nothing for my house and its open windows.
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1) To break the car below 10~15KM/hour (for Americans: 5KM/hour is normal walking speed)
2) For emergency stops.
Generally the physical brakes are used so little that the disks rust -_-'
EVs wear brake pads differently from ICEs (Score:5, Insightful)
I have been an EV driver for about 10 years (Nissan Leaf and Tesla M3). What Brembo is not commenting on is how the usage pattern of brake discs of EVs (including hybrids with enough battery) is radically different from ICE vehicles.
ICE vehicles use their brakes continually, every time they slow down. EVs regenerate the energy instead to refill the battery, that's why several models can be driven with a single pedal (raising the foot will slow down the car). Brakes in EVs tend to be used mostly for stationing (which does not wear the pads) and emergency braking or other special cases (very steep downhill, battery 100% full and few others). This means that particulate emission from EV brakes is already negligible.
This also means that, while ICE brakes wear regularly, EV brakes wear so slowly that they sometime rust instead, resulting in lower performance when an emergency occurs and they are suddenly needed. Here in Norway, automobile clubs and insurance companies actually recommend EV drivers to speed and brake hard once in a while [www.naf.no] to maintain brake pads efficiency.
So I would be more impressed if Brembo had produced a more rust-resistant brake pad that maintains performance even after being subject to salt and other corrosive conditions for weeks, because I never remember to do that hard brake thing (which implies finding a place where you can do it safely). That would be a brake pad that lasts a lot longer, possibly the entire life of the vehicle.
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ICE vehicles use their brakes continually, every time they slow down
Every time they stop, sure. You can slow down by lifting or downshifting.
That would be a brake pad that lasts a lot longer, possibly the entire life of the vehicle.
Pads aren't the rust problem, rotors are.
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Here in Norway, automobile clubs and insurance companies actually recommend EV drivers to speed and brake hard once in a while to maintain brake pads efficiency.
In a properly functioning market, the manufacturers would have built in a system to keep this from being necessary within a year or two of discovering the need. Innovation is painfully slow.
Sounds a bit like chrome plating (Score:2)
but with lasers instead of cyanide.
Interestingly, both favoured by Bond villains.
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EVs are not "overweight". Overweight means they are heavier than they should be. EVs are heavier than comparable ICE vehicles, but only by a modest amount in larger vehicles.
10-25% could be described as modest, but it would be more accurate to say "significant".
EVs do not have "tire-shredding torque", they have the same torque ICE vehicles have. Torque is torque.
If you knew anything about cars you'd know that they make torque in different places, and electric motors make peak torque at 0 RPM and ICEs don't. Most EVs also have more peak torque, that's not the same either. You either don't know what these very common words mean, or you don't know enough about cars to have something valuable to say here.
EVs do not have and more natural tendency to "shred tires" than other vehicles do.
Yes, they absolutely do, because as discussed they have more torque, and more t
and yet more lies (Score:1)
" And brakes are another -- even an EV with regenerative braking will occasionally need to use its friction brakes, after all."
Brake wear is virtually eliminated in EVs, it's already a solved problem.
It's interesting that lies about tires are sensationalized as though there's a big inherent difference that does not exist, yet with brakes, where there is a big inherent difference, the lie is to pretend there isn't one.
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Dropped Wheel Weights a Greater Problem (Score:2)