Mitsubishi Launches EV Battery Swap Network in Tokyo - for Both Cars and Trucks (electrek.co) 62
In Tokyo Mitsubishi is deploying "an innovative new battery swap network for electric cars" in a multi-year test program reports the EV news site Electrek.
But it's not just for electric cars. Along with the 14 modular battery swapping stations, Mitsubishi is also deploying "more than 150 battery-swappable commercial electric vehicles" from truck maker Fuso: A truck like the Mitsubishi eCanter typically requires a full night of AC charging to top off its batteries, and at least an hour or two on DC charging in Japan, according to Fuso. This joint pilot by Mitsubishi, Mitsubishi Fuso Trucks, and [EV battery swap specialist] Ample aims to circumvent this issue of forced downtime with its swappable batteries, supporting vehicle uptime by delivering a full charge within minutes.
The move is meant to encourage the transport industry's EV shift while creating a depository of stored energy that can be deployed to the grid in the event of a natural disaster — something Mitsubishi in Japan has been working on for years.
The article's author also adds their own opinion about battery-swapping technology. "When you see how simple it is to add hundreds of miles of driving in just 100 seconds — quicker, in many cases, than pumping a tank of liquid fuel into an ICE-powered car — you might come around, yourself."
But it's not just for electric cars. Along with the 14 modular battery swapping stations, Mitsubishi is also deploying "more than 150 battery-swappable commercial electric vehicles" from truck maker Fuso: A truck like the Mitsubishi eCanter typically requires a full night of AC charging to top off its batteries, and at least an hour or two on DC charging in Japan, according to Fuso. This joint pilot by Mitsubishi, Mitsubishi Fuso Trucks, and [EV battery swap specialist] Ample aims to circumvent this issue of forced downtime with its swappable batteries, supporting vehicle uptime by delivering a full charge within minutes.
The move is meant to encourage the transport industry's EV shift while creating a depository of stored energy that can be deployed to the grid in the event of a natural disaster — something Mitsubishi in Japan has been working on for years.
The article's author also adds their own opinion about battery-swapping technology. "When you see how simple it is to add hundreds of miles of driving in just 100 seconds — quicker, in many cases, than pumping a tank of liquid fuel into an ICE-powered car — you might come around, yourself."
Such efforts usually or always fail (Score:3)
I've heard of many battery swap systems, especially from Tesla. As far as I know, none of them have worked out. The economic and technical issues are rough.
So this will go down in flames.
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The economics indeed don't work out. The infrastructure costs are high, the battery costs are high, and you STILL need to build charging infrastructure anyway, in order to recharge the dropped off batteries.
With that factored in, what are you paying per swap? 3-4x what normal recharging would cost?
Besides, battery tech is improving daily. Increasingly seeing mentions of 5-6min recharge times.
Re:Such efforts usually or always fail (Score:5, Informative)
There is almost no infrastructure required for this; It's a single building about the size of a small service center or car wash. In there is all the charging infrastructure you need, too.
The problems with battery swap are nothing related to what you mentioned. The real hurdles to mass adoption are questions about battery ownership, standardization, and to a lesser extend vehicle integration.
Since an EV is useless without a battery, laws in some countries (like the US) make selling an EV without a battery basically impossible. Even if you lease the battery separately. It would be akin to selling a new car without an engine; since it's not in a functional state, it can't be sold as a road-worthy vehicle. Countries like China don't have this hurdle so manufacturers like Nio and BYD have been rolling out that kind of business model - Nio alone has thousands of swap stations.
Standardization also generally means you are vendor locked. The battery pack needs to be physically and electrically compatible with your vehicle. It's not impossible but it's very unlikely that the industry will develop such standards especially when it puts hard constraints on the shape and size of the whole vehicle that needs to be build around the pack. Again, not a problem for single manufacturers but if you buy a Nio you will only ever be able to use battery swapping at Nio locations.
Finally integration; To reduce costs some manufacturers (read: Tesla) tightly integrate the battery pack into the structure of the vehicle making it impossible swap without a multi-day ordeal. Imagine trying to battery swap the Model Y where the top of the battery casing has the front seats and center console bolted to it, because it's also the floor of the cabin.
> With that factored in, what are you paying per swap? 3-4x what normal recharging would cost?
From what I understand, Nio charges a flat fee of 180 renminbi, or about US$25, per swap. I'm aware of some schemes that also charge based on battery SoC but I don't think Nio specifically uses that business model. Remember; under this system you do not own the battery, you're basically renting it. This also makes the car cheaper up front.
> Besides, battery tech is improving daily. Increasingly seeing mentions of 5-6min recharge times.
I have not seen any credible demonstrations of "5-6 min recharge times" though I've seen plenty of sensationalist tech news headlines about the possibility of such... relatedly, a battery swap does take about 5 minutes.
And the fact that battery tech is constantly improving is an argument in favor of the swap model, since you can potentially upgrade to a better battery automatically at no cost or inconvenience.
=Smidge=
The Tesla Model Y (Score:2)
I always wondered about the Model Y making battery replacement as a long-term maintenance item nearly impossible. I think the justification were some strong claims from Tesla about their battery packs lasting longer than anyone would want to keep the car going, which seems optimistic.
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I've had my current 'daily driver' for 23 years, I'm not sure Tesla's battery would keep going for that long.
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Well, they have been talking about the million mile battery.
Now, that may be hype, but Musk has been pivoting the company to robotaxis, and to really unlock a big robotaxi market, they need to keep (amortized) hardware costs down, and one of the ways of doing that is through longevity.
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Battery swapping means you need extra batteries, of every kind and shape that needs to be swapped. Or is a car battery the same as an SUV battery and as a truck battery and as a heavy-duty truck/semi-truck battery? Probably not.
You iterated many of the problems, but unless you're going have specifically schedule pickup times you're going to need dozens of extra batteries or each size and type. Some charging, some waiting to be charged, and so on. It's not just a five minute gas station swap if a charged bat
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There could be a lot of infrastructure involved if you've driven past a school bus lot or USPS delivery truck lot like I have. If we assume an all day charge because these vehicles get a battery swap every evening after making their rounds then that can be a very large electrical load. Enough of a load that if this technology becomes popular for fleet vehicles in a city it could require another reactor at the local nuclear power plant to keep up.
That doesn't mean this is impractical. It means any city lo
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You just said there's no infrastructure needed, and then describe putting up thousands of buildings around the place. That is infrastructure. That's a lot of investment for no current customers. On the flip side a large part of why EVs started taking off was that in the earliest days with zero charging infrastructure people could charge the things at home.
Battery swapping tech will make sense for depot based commercial activities (e.g. local delivery like Amazon / UPS, or return to base medium haul systems)
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> You just said there's no infrastructure needed, and then describe putting up thousands of buildings around the place.
You're ignoring the context; "you STILL need to build charging infrastructure anyway" - you do not, at least no more than any other business would need infrastructure which is already local and existing. Contrast to "charging infrastructure" which invokes mental images of huge cabinets of electrical equipment and rows of kiosks all out in the middle of nowhere.
> That's a lot of invest
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Nio let you choose between renting the battery and owning it. IIRC you can swap between the two as well, if you want to buy the battery out. Apparently 70% of people opt for rental.
Renault tried rental in Europe, but it wasn't popular. I guess Nio's secret is that it includes battery swapping, so offsets charging costs and is ideal for road warriors who want a sub 3 minute recharge.
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A small service center with a 1-MW electrical connection. (A 1000-kVA transformer is roughly the size of an SUV and weighs 5-10 tons.) Custom charging electronics and robotic handling systems in the $10^7 range. A stack of semi-custom truck-capacity batteries that run $10^5 apiece.
But, yeah, aside from that, no inf
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" battery tech is improving daily. Increasingly seeing mentions of 5-6min recharge times"
yes but to recharge a battery that quickly from a low state of charge would require a VERY powerful charger, close to 1 MEGAWATT!
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Every roadblock you have mentioned is merely a prejudiced perspective that needs to be overcome. There was not a single technical issue mentioned.
My sanity may be questioned, but seriously folks, wake the fuck up. Y'all are acting insane. Battery swapping *IS* the way forward until the tech changes.
Re: Such efforts usually or always fail (Score:2)
Beijing's taxi fleet are mostly(?) EVs that use battery swap tech. Iinm, the car brand is also called "Beijing".
Copilot says:
Beijing is at the forefront of electric vehicle (EV) battery swap technology, especially in its taxi fleets. Instead of waiting to recharge, drivers can pull into a battery swap station and have a fully charged battery installed in as little as 90 to 100 seconds2. Thatâ(TM)s faster than filling up a petrol tank.
Companies like NIO and CATL are leading the charge. NIO has built ove
Re: small service center or car wash (Score:2)
A small building "about the size of a small service center or car wash" is unlikely to be insurable if it is used to store new charged EV batteries, let alone also having to store used EV batteries in various stages of degradation.
I can't imagine getting a business permit let alone being able to pass a fire safety inspection.
Or are all those videos of EV fires that can't be extinguished fake news?
I don't know if they are real, I do know they managed to ignite the worry in me.
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Yep. You still have to charge those batteries, which means you have to get a lot of electricity in, which means you either locate by the power mains or you pay a ton to run a line. Plus storage. Plus the swapping station.
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A dense city area for taxis and such is a good starting point. Cars cost 1/4 as much and have no battery at all. You join a "club" which spreads out the costs over it's network. More involved but not far from the charging networks you have to join today to use most every charging station. Some charge a monthly fee already. This would be a high cost initially; however, it would be spread out likely over a decade since many plans and loans are that long. As batteries get better the costs go down.
One could p
Use case for battery swap (Score:2)
I think the use case for battery swap is to support a kind of "power-by-the-hour" battery warranty akin to the arrangement airlines have with the jet-engine manufacturers.
If there was a way to replace the battery that didn't require hundreds of dollars in labor fees, an electric vehicle owner wouldn't have to worry about the unexpected expense of a battery wearing out. The motorist would "lease" the battery, essentially pay a subscription fee for the use of the battery, receiving a replacement when warr
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Re: Such efforts usually or always fail (Score:2)
And Beijing taxis.
Re: Such efforts usually or always fail (Score:2)
I just don't see this working out with millions of vehicles on the road
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Also, it's a stopgap.
Battery will drastically improve. Every decade we discover new battery tech that massively outperforms it predecessor.
This whole thing will be obsolete in just 10 to 15 years.
Re: Such efforts usually or always fail (Score:2)
That's when the people who bought swappable batteries can swap out their older one for the newer one. They then also don't have to swap so often, and also easily upgrade when the next improvement happens.
We didn't all just stop using AA batteries for the same reasons...
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As far as I know, none of them have worked out.
Consumer systems won't work out. There's too much of a problem with battery ownership, different manufacturers, rolling out of systems in locations convenient to consumers, etc. But commercial systems on the other hand would work out just fine. Commercial vehicles often have a tendency to have a depot, they have a tendency to have a common owner at a depot. The idea of jumping in a truck, doing deliveries, then returning to the depot, swapping the battery and then doing another trip to the next customer wou
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Nio has successful run its battery swap scheme in Europe and China for years now. Takes under 3 minutes. It looks like a car wash, you park near it and the car drives itself in, the battery gets swapped out for a 90%+ charged one, and off you go.
They are installing them in the UK at the moment, due to open later this year with the arrival of their cars here. The ones in Norway have been working really well. There are lots of videos on YouTube if you want to see them in action.
The economics seem to work well
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"I've heard of many battery swap systems, especially from Tesla"
Tesla's was a ploy to get more carbon credits. The real effort to build a battery swap system was Better Place.
The problem with this... (Score:4, Interesting)
This is a huge *no thank you*... I don't want your used battery pack in my new car.
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The Mitsubishi service is a managed charging for the fleet of a local delivery company. The batteries that get swapped all belong to the same owner and presumably will get worn uniformly. I imagine the delivery company did not want to deal with the charging, asks Mitsubishi to take care, Mitsubishi makes up a battery swap solution which is less expensive than fast chargers for the whole fleet.
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But not to solve the problem of range extension (Score:2)
I see this as a way of dealing with owner anxiety of an unexpected battery replacement expense, maybe a major maintenance done every 5 years and 80,000 miles, not something done on a daily basis.
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We have no problem buying a BBQ with a BRAND NEW propane tank(empty) only to take swap it for a full tank so that you can grill a few burgers.
Yes, let's compare the $50 propane tank to the $30k battery pack. Great example!
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Imagine leasing an EV and never having to worry about the battery wearing out. And being able to used these swap stations for an instant charge.
Re: The problem with this... (Score:2)
Now take that and times it by millions of cars
Re: The problem with this... (Score:1)
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"Has been God knows where" ?? ... Uh, I'm not an expert, but batteries aren't like underwear. You can't catch cooties from using someone else's.
Battery cooties (Score:2)
The condition of a battery can depend a lot on how it has been used-cycles, depth and rate of discharge, amount of fast DC charging, temperature conditions.
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Easy enough to have a chip that records battery state & charging history. I imagine at least some already do this
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"Then you do this "battery swap" and get a *used* battery pack that's been god knows where. "
This is what ISO documentation standards are for.
Re: The problem with this... (Score:2)
Two totally different technologies
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Imagine buying a brand-new EV, where the battery is 3/4 the cost of the vehicle. Then you do this "battery swap" and get a *used* battery pack that's been god knows where.
*starts imagining*. I imagine that at worst I'll receive a battery with 80% of the capacity. I imagine that this battery will be in my car for about a week before it is replaced by a different battery. I imagine having an issue with my battery that is resolved by going to a battery swap station rather than spending thousands for a manufacturer repair. I imagine that this is a complete non-issue.
The only thing I can't imagine is why you would get worked up about this.
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Its not a simple procedure to remove your batteries. You say "this battery will be in my car for about a week" but have you looked into it? Replacing a Tesla module requires a lift, and either a team of strong guys or special lifting fixtures to remove the modul
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all your points were considered by Better Place 20 years ago. you don't own the battery, you lease it.
they had 20 swap stations, mostly in Israel that kept operating for a couple years after the company officially went bankrupt.
they tried too hard, too soon & in the wrong market but they had a working solution
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The battery is nowhere near 3/4 the cost of the vehicle. Automotive LFP batteries were about $50/kWh last year, and that is expected to see another dramatic fall by next year due to new manufacturing capacity and technology coming online.
So a large 80kWh battery will cost about $4,000. Cars with that size battery are generally not retailing for under $6000.
Who cares if the battery you swap to is used? It is guaranteed to have at least 90% capacity, and if it actually is broken you can swap it again. Nio war
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Where are you seeing a guaranteed 90% capacity? Modules are only as good as their weakest link, and with 444 cells that's a lot that can go wrong.
Almost every car will some day approach that $6k price. The first few owners take a huge hit off the MSRP and value. Eventually, the nth owner acquires the
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Automotive companies don't buy their batteries from eBay, they buy them direct from the Chinese manufacturers.
Nio guarantee that batteries that get swapped are at least 90% SoH and 90% SoC.
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Imagine buying a brand-new EV, where the battery is 3/4 the cost of the vehicle. Then you do this "battery swap" and get a *used* battery pack that's been god knows where.
You REALLY can't think of a way for this happen reasonably? Seriously?
Look, I apologize for the derisive response. It is not helpful.
You appear to be fixated on "owning" the battery. That is fine, you can keep your ultra special brand spanking new battery and even pay to have it recycled and replaced. You are not required to exchange it. You can keep recharging it all that you want... until it dies. Then, you can buy another brand spanking new battery for full price while also paying the disposal price for
A previous attempt didn't last long (Score:2)
"Better Place [wikipedia.org] was a venture-backed international company that developed and sold battery charging and battery switching services for electric cars. It was formally based in Palo Alto, California, but the bulk of its planning and operations were steered from Israel .... The company opened its first functional charging station the first week of December 2008 at Cinema City in Pi-Glilot near Tel Aviv, Israel. The first customer deliveries of Renault Fluence Z.E. electric cars enabled with battery switching tec
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A previous attempt didn't last long
Could well be a timing thing. Recall that both pets.com (online pet supply ordering) and webvan (grocery delivery) failed after the dot com boom and were ridiculed as having dumb ideas, but about 15 years later everyone started doing those things. They both were basically just too early.
As to the cars... there are a heck of a lot more electric cars around now than in 2008 and people are much more used to them. OTOH fast charging is also a thing now when it wasn't really then and there are more charge
So like Tesla was going to do.. (Score:2)
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Telsa proposed it for consumer cars with stations littered around the country creating issues with infrastructure, battery storage (need far more batteries than cars - the most expensive part of an EV) and questions about battery ownership and liability.
Mitsubishi is proposing a system for commercial fleet management. Plenty of people want this. Just not average commuters like you and I. This makes no sense to us, but then I don't work at a post office, or at Amazon where this technology makes a world of se
Gogoro is already scaling this . . . (Score:1)
. . . but only for scooters and mainly in Taiwan:
- thousands of swapping locations
- usually two batteries per scooter
- less than a minute to swap
- about 1.7kWH per battery at a bit over twenty pounds each (“Gen3”)
- typical range of 80 miles
- between 500,000 and 600,000 in use
100% vs 80% (Score:2)
The other significant advantage of swapping batteries is that batteries can be charged to 100% instead of 80%. This means greater effective driving range and fewer stops for recharging.
This is intended for fleet vehicles. (Score:1)
I'm seeing many comments point to how a battery swap system failed for Tesla when they tried it. That's because they were selling the vehicles with the battery swap system to people that owned just the one car which would use them for daily commutes. These are people that would rarely drive more miles than the battery could provide in a day before returning home. Once home then they could likely use a 1.5 kW portable charger to have enough range for the next day. For those that had a bit of paranoia of
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"how a battery swap system failed for Tesla when they tried it"
Elon had ZERO intention of actually building a swap network - it's was a smart ploy to qualify for more carbon credits as CARB had a tier for "quick refueling" that benefited technologies like hydrogen. I don't recall the exact details but the "refueling" time was impractical for EVs at the time if only using chargers hence the battery swap scheme.
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So Elon and friends at Tesla weren't the stupid ones trying to make battery swaps in EVs happen, it was CARB?
Okay, so you have cars with the capability to swap batteries because slow charging at home is enough for people, and when travels take people too far from a battery swap station they still have the option of using a Supercharger or a portable charger and a standard electrical outlet. It sounds like it makes the drivers happy, and CARB happy. If by chance there is a problem with the battery then the