PIRG, Other Groups Criticize Microsoft's Plan to Discontinue Support for Windows 10 (windowscentral.com) 156
The consumer advocacy nonprofit PIRG (Public Interest Research Group) is now petitioning Microsoft to reconsider pulling support for Windows 10 in 2025, since "as many as 400 million perfectly good computers that can't upgrade to Windows 11 will be thrown out." In a petition addressed to Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella, the group warned the October 14 end of free support could cause "the single biggest jump in junked computers ever, and make it impossible for Microsoft to hit their sustainability goals."
About 40% of PCs currently in use can't upgrade to Windows 11, even if users want to... Less than a quarter of electronic waste is recycled, so most of those computers will end up in landfills.
Consumer Reports recently also urged Microsoft to not to "strand millions of customers.". And now more groups are also pushing back, according to a post from the blog Windows: Central The Restart Project co-developed the "End of 10" toolkit, which is designed to support Windows 10 users who can't upgrade to Windows 11 after the operating system hits its end-of-support date.
They also note that a Paris-based company called Back Market plans to sell Windows 10 laptops refurbished with Ubuntu Linux or ChromeOS Flex. ("We refuse to watch hundreds of millions of perfectly good computers end up in the trash as e-waste," explains their web site.) Back Market's ad promises an "up-to-date, secure operating system — so instead of paying for a new computer you don't need, you can help us give this one a brand new life."
Right now Windows 10 holds 71.9% of Microsoft's market share, with Windows 11 at 22.95%, according to figures from StatCounter cited by the blog Windows Central. And HP and Dell "recently indicated that half of the global PCs are still running Windows 10," according to another Windows Central post...
Consumer Reports recently also urged Microsoft to not to "strand millions of customers.". And now more groups are also pushing back, according to a post from the blog Windows: Central The Restart Project co-developed the "End of 10" toolkit, which is designed to support Windows 10 users who can't upgrade to Windows 11 after the operating system hits its end-of-support date.
They also note that a Paris-based company called Back Market plans to sell Windows 10 laptops refurbished with Ubuntu Linux or ChromeOS Flex. ("We refuse to watch hundreds of millions of perfectly good computers end up in the trash as e-waste," explains their web site.) Back Market's ad promises an "up-to-date, secure operating system — so instead of paying for a new computer you don't need, you can help us give this one a brand new life."
Right now Windows 10 holds 71.9% of Microsoft's market share, with Windows 11 at 22.95%, according to figures from StatCounter cited by the blog Windows Central. And HP and Dell "recently indicated that half of the global PCs are still running Windows 10," according to another Windows Central post...
Astonishing one company can do this (Score:3)
It's astonishing one company could generate this amount of electronic waste.
But, if you have a de facto monopoly on the desktop and the the productivity software (i.e. Office), it's basically like a government decree stating you have to trash those PCs.
It's like the "Cash For Clunkers [google.com]" program, where the government destroyed 10s of thousands of perfectly usable vehicles (driving up the cost of used vehicles), except there's no cash being given to the affected people, and the computers aren't going to be recycled.
Re: (Score:2)
It is one of the reasons why monopolies are a massive problem and need to be prevented by regulation. But in the US, greed has long since taken over and the rest of the world is asleep at the wheel regarding this problem. Well, with the increasing unreliability if the US as a partner, maybe Europe will finally wake up now. Or not.
Re: Astonishing one company can do this (Score:3)
Also realize that the hardware constraints are fictional. I have installed 24H2 Enterprise LTSC on several computers that shouldn't allow it on my workplace.
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No argument. These constraints are artificial, not something the system needs to work. Hence they can be circumvented. Makes the whole thing even worse though.
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I'm going full conspiracy mode here but... Create artificial demand for products with planned obsolescence. Place high tariffs across countries that manufacture machines... profit?
But seriously Satya Nadella was at that tech leader summit at the White House, did this topic come up? A broadly popular consumer advocacy issue that crosses party lines? Maybe use that bully pulpit and reckless executive authority for such a purpose for once? No? Bueller?
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NOTHING crosses party lines, don't kid yourself.
The "profits" your conspiracy creates is called federal tariff revenue, and it would hopefully help reduce deficit spending by increasing federal revenue (assuming spending doesn't increase at the same time/rate).
When was the last time Apple/Tim Cook was called out over Apple's support policies that obsolete hardware just as fast as Microsoft is doing (the next release of macOS drops the last few supported Intel Macs - the vast majority were dropped in the lat
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NOTHING crosses party lines, don't kid yourself.
I'm sorry which political party is cheering for this right now? I have a pretty low conception of Republicans currently but are they really pro "get rid of Win10"?
The "profits" your conspiracy creates is called federal tariff revenue
Oh I understand what taxes are.
When was the last time Apple/Tim Cook was called out over Apple's support policies that obsolete hardware just as fast as Microsoft is doing
On here? All the time, you're doing it right now!
It's less of an issue about that from Apple because they have never had that expectation on their hardware, have far less enterprise use cases and they've always been a minority market-share for desktops. There is nothing illegal about locking down hardware (even if I
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C4C destroyed mostly old shitpiles with poor efficiency [thedrive.com], so it was effective in reducing hydrocarbon emissions.
I suspect a lot of these machines will go to the third world and get refurb'd into PCs there, so people will benefit anyway. In fact, a significant percentage of them will probably get Windows 11 installed on them using the bypasses...
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In fact, a significant percentage of them will probably get Windows 11 installed on them using the bypasses...
If that's the case, why won't the current owners just do that? Are we too stupid/lazy/rich to do that, so we have to shove old desktops in shipping containers and send them halfway around the world, so they can be used by people that get their power from coal-fired power plants and run native language OS versions with English keyboards?
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In fact, a significant percentage of them will probably get Windows 11 installed on them using the bypasses...
If that's the case, why won't the current owners just do that? Are we too stupid/lazy/rich to do that
Mostly too rich. There are potential problems we don't want to deal with, and will pay to avoid it.
so they can be used by people that get their power from coal-fired power plants and run native language OS versions with English keyboards?
They can probably get local character set equipped key caps from China.
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Let's be serious, these claims are outlandish, extreme, and meant only to tug at the emotions of the reader.
(Up to) 400 million perfectly good computers that can't upgrade to Windows 11? That's a second-order made-up (estimate) number - they estimate a billion computers, then estimate 40% can't be upgraded, to create the image of 400 million computers going to the landfill by November 1, 2025 - it's a wildly unrealistic number/claim.
The vast majority of Win 10 computers that can't be upgraded will continue
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I have been running Win 7 all these years and finally had to move out because Norton Security said they will stop updates in a few months time, None of the browsers work properly with many modern websites. Google Drive stopped working. Microsoft OneDrive too stopped working and so on. Finally, last year I moved to Linux Mint with Win 7 as a VM for use for my PIC programming software. So it is not just a matter of the PC will run, yes but many applications will stop running over some time on those machines.
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"It's astonishing one company could generate this amount of electronic waste."
Apple has been doing this for decades. Nor are they getting better, the workings of the T2 chip is a great secret and the later Intel Macs and all the M-series use it. It has been partly hacked but Linux on Apple Silicon is not fully there yet. The T2 does several things besides security.
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what the hell kind of garbage did you buy?
I am typing this on a nice Dell XPS laptop I bought 8.5 years ago. 4K screen, backlit keyboard, 16 GB RAM, 7th gen i7 processor. Used for over 50 hours per week for 8.5 years. I would say that kind of usage indicates that it is not garbage - but quality hardware. Unfortunately, it won't officially run Windows 11.
The only thing I have had to replace is the power cord - as the old one bent back and forth a lot being moved several times a day.
Re: Astonishing one company can do this (Score:2)
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uh-huh, behind my desk is an intel computer I built myself 10 years ago - Rampage V edition 10, Intel i7-6950X EXTREME (it runs fast because it has EXTREME in the name...also ran fantastically hot but that was another issue...) quad channel DDR4 that was overclocked and an MSI NVIDIA GTX 790. It STILL runs like a champ and I could do about 80% of what I needed it to including coding, photo and video editing and mid level gaming and all around home server.
And what I thought would be my last build... wasn't.
Re: Astonishing one company can do this (Score:2)
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Can't risk security issues in healthcare.
Shouldn't that make Windows unacceptable? /s
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Are we really doing developing countries a favor by dumping countless millions of laptops with 10 year-old batteries and countless millions of 8+ year-old desktops that use a staggering amount of electricity compared to cheap, modern tiny Windows 11 NUC-style computers that support Windows 11?
Yes, we can ignore all the bunker fuel burned to ship this big old computers to 3rd world countries, and we can pretend that all their electricity is from renewable green sources, and that they will choose to install a
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So this year I forked over a ton of cash and built a whole new rig just so Microsoft, which had declared Windows 10 would be the last Windows ever, could sell a buncha new licenses for forced obsolescence.
No. You built the new computer because you wanted/needed to run Windows 11 - why can't you just accept responsibility for your actions/decisions? All you needed to do was buy a new CPU/MB/RAM, and continued to use all that "perfectly good" storage, video card, chassis and power supply from your Windows 10 rig - you chose to replace rather than upgrade. And if your last, 10 year-old custom-built desktop ran a retail version of Windows 10, you could have transferred the windows license to the newly-upgraded r
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Yes - that's the point. I needed to run Windows 11 because I use Windows specific apps. I also have 2 personal macbooks, have an employer provided macbook for my professional job and will probably install some version of Linux on the old system and maybe turn it into a NAS of some sort.
But then that wasn't the point of your reply was it? Because in your rush to play whataboustism and score some internet karma you seemed to have missed the last line of my post - "just so Microsoft, which had declared Wind
Re: Astonishing one company can do this (Score:3)
BS. How many consumer PCs six years ago came with TPMs? The real requirements for a consumer PC for web browsing and occasional Office use hasn't changed in 10 years. Windows 11's hardware requirements should be no different than 10's. TPM should be optional. M$ is just colluding with the hardware vendors to increase sales.
I'm not sure this is really about hardware (Score:2)
TPM should be optional. M$ is just colluding with the hardware vendors to increase sales.
Unfortunately, there is another possible explanation for the emphasis on TPM that is much more sinister. It's possible that Microsoft and its allies are making a concerted effort to lock down desktop clients in the same way that the two major mobile ecosystems are locked down, to kill off general purpose computing and reduce the desktop PC to a machine that can only run approved apps and consume approved content. It already happens with things like banking apps that you can't run if you choose to root your
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where a few games won't run because their anti-cheat software behaves like malware and the free platforms treat it accordingly.
To be fair, it's more to do with "would require a complete rewrite Wine's memory management code" and "would also require completely new code to support an explicitly unsupported set of Windows kernel APIs" than "treating it like malware."
Especially given that Valve's Proton is a thing. You think Valve wouldn't love to support running all of those anti-cheats on all platforms? Remember why they made Proton in the first place: To avoid Microsoft's heel pressed against their throat.
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That's a conscious decision on the part of the user / owner.
Except most normies won't realize the choice even exists because of the way the industry, and government, has trained consumers for decades.
"It Just Works" means that most don't know where their documents are saved, let alone what "lenoux" is.
The idea of "reinstalling" an OS is something that fills them with dread because of all of the malware they've been told will survive even if the guy at geek squad / the genius bar does it correctly. (Assuming they even know that much in the first place.)
Factory
Already? (Score:3)
Yeah, that does seem ridiculously quick for Windows 11 - they're only just now ending support for Windows 10, after all...
(do I really need to say it?)
Re:Already? (Score:5, Informative)
We would all be better off without Windows 11, really.
Re:Already? (Score:5, Insightful)
I've never used Windows past version 7. I definitely feel better off. 8.1 was ridiculous, 9 got lost, 10 peeked into your private life, and, well, 11 took that full Monty and went straight for your underwear drawer.
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Okay, I'm stealing that one! Hilarious!
Re:Already? (Score:5, Informative)
I've never used Windows past version 7. I definitely feel better off. 8.1 was ridiculous, 9 got lost, 10 peeked into your private life
Microsoft put the same telemetry they put into 10 into 7 and 8 via updates. Some of those were "updates" that included nothing but telemetry, sometimes they bundled the telemetry with actual updates so if you wanted one you had to have the other. There are scripts and other tools to remove those updates, but if you are not using those and you have been doing updates, they all spy on you.
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Yep, I always used Tronscript to remove those updates after a Windows 7 clean install and update, which also immunized the OS from getting the telemetry updates again.
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Then don't run it, no one is forcing you to run Win 11, are they?
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Just to be clear since I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, the subject is wrong - they are criticizing the end of support of Windows 10.
Less than a quarter of electronic waste is recycled, so most of those computers will end up in landfills.
Also this is wrong since most of them will end up being resold in poor nations with Linux installed (or old Windows 7 or 10 running without support).
And computers that are unusable are too valuable to end up in a 'landfill', which is where you bury garbage. But PIRG has always been a bit...excessive with hyperbole. Most old computing equipment goes to poor count
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Just to be clear since I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, the subject is wrong - they are criticizing the end of support of Windows 10.
(do I really need to say it?)
Apparently, I really needed to say it...
Re: Already? (Score:2)
Damn, where's my Windows 12? (Score:2)
Wait, do I need to trash my 13600k and build a new system with an Intel Core Ultra for it to be compatible?
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Wait, do I need to trash my 13600k and build a new system with an Intel Core Ultra for it to be compatible?
Yes, and make sure you spend a shitload of money on it too. That way when Microsoft does this again in a few years you'll get to experience that same sweet regret all over again.
blocked, not can't (Score:5, Insightful)
>"petitioning Microsoft to reconsider pulling support for Windows 10 in 2025, since "as many as 400 million perfectly good computers that can't upgrade to Windows 11"
Most of the machine *can* upgrade to Windows 11, Microsoft has just chosen to artificially block them as part of their "security" (yeah right) stance.
My advice is to move to Linux, if you can, where your privacy and humanity is respected, where you can fully control your own computer and without "cloud" invasion, where updates/upgrades are quick, easy, and free, where security and performance is great, where your machine can live on for many more years.
I have lots of machines that are 10 to 13 years old running Linux and perform very well, and expect will still do so for many more. As long as it has an SSD and enough RAM (I recommend 6+GB but have many with just 4GB), use for browsing, graphics manipulation, playing/recording audio, playing most video, simple/casual gaming, and office-apps are just fine.
Re:blocked, not can't (Score:4, Insightful)
I have some machines 20 years old, working perfectly. I don't think an SSD is necessary. Most of mine run spinning rust and they're fine. Gotta be careful with swapfile: excess background tasks hogging up RAM causing swapping. Also defrag occasionally.
In a way I'm glad Microsoft is abandoning 10. It would be so so awesome if it triggered a large loss for Microsoft and exodus from Windows.
We techies should use it as an opportunity to help people upgrade to Linux. Not sure what distro I'd recommend though. (yes, we all have opinions on that...)
Re: blocked, not can't (Score:4, Informative)
>"Linux missed this opportunity. It is not usable as desktop for common users."
Wow, tell that to all the "common users" I have set up with Linux and use it just fine as a desktop. Even my old mom has used it for over 15 years.
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Even my old mom has used it for over 15 years.
What about your new mom?
Sorry, had to!
Which distro / desktop is she using?
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>>Even my old mom has used it for over 15 years. :) hardy, har har
>What about your new mom?
>Sorry, had to!
>Which distro / desktop is she using?
Started out as Mandrake then Mandriva then Mageia (kept changing names), all in KDE. Then Mint/Cinnamon.
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ok now that might be harder to do with someone who doesnt have a linux expert on speeddial. And i dont want to be that linux expert for my family and friends (sorry, not sorry).
When win7 lost support, i tried linux on the desktop yet again as i have since 1997. mint in this case. It has the same problems of needing updates, where people force in "design changes" a long with security changes. It has a lifecycle, and you will be told to upgrade to a newer releas
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"Linux missed this opportunity. It is not usable as desktop for common users."
Some distributions are not suitable for common users, some of the are quite suitable. There are multiple articles and videos on best Linux for Windows refugees out there.
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There are multiple articles and videos on best Linux for Windows refugees out there.
My point exactly: there are multiple. For most people, sadly, it's Microsoft Windows. No choices. Many (most?) don't even mess with the few customizations there are in Windows. But it's mostly consistent from computer to computer.
I know many semi-techies who talk about that they're using "Linux". I ask "which distribution?" I get deer in headlights. After more questions, or sometimes eyes-on, it very often turns out to be Ubuntu, but could be any of (too?) many.
A concern: non-techie person "A" uses Mint / C
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Slashdot logic: Microsoft doesn't take security seriously!
Microsoft: we'll re-design our security infrastructure from the ground up including hardware hardening and yeah we may be the last consumer OS to do so but we're finally improving security.
Slashdot logic:
"security" (yeah right)
Honestly everyone here is a whiney bitch.
Re: blocked, not can't (Score:2)
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It was never really about the capability of the hardware to run Windows 11, it was about Microsoft's desire to cut costs by not having to support it. Every supported configuration has to be tested, and if issues are found relating to 10 year old drivers, they have to be fixed.
What we really need is a law to set the minimum support term, say 10 years after the last official sale. For Windows 10 that would be 2031. Even that might not be enough though - both Microsoft and Apple are notorious for releasing upd
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What we really need is a law to set the minimum support term, say 10 years after the last official sale
Really? Once I stop selling an OS I need to keep supporting it for 10 years? That would mean te os would have what, 20+ years of support? That is completely unworkable, not practical. That would have MS still supporting Win 7 and 8/8.1.
Apple drops support for hardware SEVEN YEARS AFTER FIRST SALE, not last sale - that's gonna really mess up their support model.
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Doesn't seem unreasonable. Support Windows 7 with security patches. No need for things like driver or feature updates, just fixes for known security flaws.
greedy fucking bastards (Score:5, Insightful)
Greedy, already rich, fucking bastards do not care about your perfectly working hardware. No, you are going to have more tracking. Teams will be forced on you, even if it doesn't work.
Eat shit and pay up motherfucker.
Love, Microsoft
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>"Eat shit and pay up motherfucker.
>"Love, Microsoft
https://linuxmint.com/ [linuxmint.com]
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Greedy, already rich, fucking bastards do not care about your perfectly working hardware. No, you are going to have more tracking. Teams will be forced on you, even if it doesn't work.
Eat shit and pay up motherfucker.
Love, Microsoft
You're asking Microsoft to provide support for free and they're the greedy ones?
Tell you what: create a petition saying everyone who wants continued support for W10 will pay $1/month/system for it, then we'll talk.
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Tell you what: create a petition saying everyone who wants continued support for W10 will pay $1/month/system for it, then we'll talk.
If we take the claims of this group seriously, that would generate $400M/month for MS, $4.8 billion a year - if they were the greedy party, wouldn't they offer that? No, the greedy ones are the folks that want their windows 10 license to cover free lifetime support (but it's not popular to point that out here)
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"At the 2015 Ignite conference, Microsoft employee Jerry Nixon stated that Windows 10 would be the "last version of Windows", a statement reflecting the company's intent to apply the software as a service business model to Windows, with new versions and updates to be released over an indefinite period."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
They told us Windows 10 was the last Windows with "updates to be released over an indefinite period." Now you tell me that I complain when I expect that?
If you demand cash for
Nope (Score:2)
It's perfectly reasonable a new OS version has higher system requirements. It's just in this case MS is pushing them to ensure manufacturers create PCs that can support certain security features. For example I understand TPM can help enforce boot security and disk encryption key storage. Good stuff to keep secure.
But if they want to throw out their PC and get a new one instead of hardware upgrading (if possible, not always), or even just switching OSs entirely for Linux (free, the only cost is time to learn
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Linux Mint looks very similar to Windows right out of the box. Installing it is also not difficult. The learning curve with Linux Mint mostly is getting familiar with different applications.
Re:Nope (Score:4, Insightful)
And, somehow, Linux desktops do really well with security, without trying to lock the desktop down with TPM.
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For now, sure - security by low market share is a security model that (by definition) doesn't scale up.
Imagine a billion Linux users, all manner of finance, business, etc users relying on Linux to run their businesses like we see with windows now. With the source code in the public domain, don't you think Linux would become the target Windows currently is, and might require a bit of help from the hardware to keep it secure?
Linux is a fringe OS, it is not impenetrable, it has vulnerabilities, and its low mar
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I do believe that with increased "market share", Linux security vulnerabilities would be found and exploited more. I never claimed it is impenetrable or without vulnerabilities, but it has always been generally very good.
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It's perfectly reasonable a new OS version has higher system requirements. It's just in this case MS is pushing them to ensure manufacturers create PCs that can support certain security features. For example I understand TPM can help enforce boot security and disk encryption key storage. Good stuff to keep secure.
It is possible for Microsoft to do both, you know.
Then they just have to make sure the price difference is high enough to destroy any profit benefit from cutting corners on the hardware.
This is unprecedented (Score:5, Insightful)
I've been in the IT industry for a VERY long time. Before Linux, and before the IBM PC was even a thing (I "cut my teeth" doing Cobol/RPG programming on the TRS-80 back in the day). So, believe me when I say that an act of artificial obsolescence on this scale is truly unprecedented. Honestly, I expect that Microsoft will walk back this decision before the October deadline occurs for a number of reasons, number one of which is that it could spell the end of Microsoft's dominance in the OS market (and, consequently, other markets).
I believe that, at the very least, it will restart conversations (at every level of government) of the continued existence of Microsoft's monopoly power in the market. And rightfully so, if you think about it. When Microsoft was first brought to task for illegal use of this monopoly, it was in large part due to the bundling of Internet Explorer with its operating system. Here we are, I don't know how many years later and, if anything, it has become even MORE DIFFICULT to choose a different web browser with Windows 11. You literally have to change the default program for EVERY web document/technology separately! And FORGET about uninstalling it; that's not happening. To top it all off, they're using the same monopoly to bundle additional products like Office 365, OneDrive, Teams etc. It's as if they actually WON the previous monopoly case at this point!
Now, where I think this really matters (and Microsoft has not adequately considered the ramifications) is in government sectors at all levels. At a moment in time where the economy isn't doing that great, government budgets are tightening. At the same time, network security is of paramount importance (especially in the age of state actors!). I know of at least ONE major university (the one in my area) that has a state mandate wherein ALL state government-owned systems must be able to receive security updates on a timely basis. Otherwise, they MUST be decommissioned. I'm sure it's similar at the federal level. I hate to think about how this will affect K12 schools. These institutions don't have the budgets to replace such a substantial number of systems that they rely on daily in order to function, all at the whim of a single company. Put simply: yes, Microsoft is still a monopoly that is abusing its monopoly power.
Back in 2015, Microsoft declared Windows 10 to be "the last version of Windows." People, and governments, were fine with it. Well 10 years later, and this is the EXACT OPPOSITE of that. Part of the reason for this is because, these days, publicly-traded companies don't think long-term. They care about earnings conference calls and stock prices. Can we really trust almost ALL of our modern IT infrastructure to ONE of these companies?
There's a reason why some government entities (especially in Germany) are switching to Linux and open-source solutions, and it's all about reducing vendor lock-in. Should this artificial "end-of-life" actually come to pass with Windows 10, I think we'll be seeing a much bigger uptick in this trend. I can imagine a world where entire nations standardize on Debian, Ubuntu or some other desktop Linux distribution or derivative. How ironic would it be if, as a result of one disastrous decision by Microsoft, the entire state of California mandated that ALL government PCs must run on Cali Linux (a standardized desktop Debian derivative that I just made up)? In this utopia, I can imagine a state agency that oversees and funds the development of this derivative (with some funding going to Debian and some other open source projects of course). The same agency could invite companies to submit bids for contracted support for the various government agencies (after all, "if you build it, they will come!").
Surely, Satya Nadella cannot be this dumb.
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So, believe me when I say that an act of artificial obsolescence on this scale is truly unprecedented.
Not really. What is unprecedented is a call for support for an OS that is not in any way in a long term support contract for over 10 years. You don't get this anywhere else. Heck for the most popular desktop Linux you get 9 months of support. MONTHS! Not even a year. And consumers do not usually seek out LTS releases.
The fact that a future version finally mandates hardware level security (the last consumer OS to do so, and I remind you it's no the 90s, we're in the world of OS acting as passkeys for externa
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I agree, which is one of the problems. On the whole, we'll be LESS secure.
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I agree, which is one of the problems. On the whole, we'll be LESS secure.
No, we'll be just as insecure as we were the day before support ended. Every vulnerability that existed when support drops will remain, but understand, those are vulnerabilities that haven't been found or exploited in the ten years of Windows 10 support history.
Software that doesn't change neither becomes more or less secure, it stays the same. The world will not end, planes won't fall out of the sky, power plants will remain online, banks won't collapse, etc., you'll just stop getting updates on Patch Tues
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Not really. What is unprecedented is a call for support for an OS that is not in any way in a long term support contract for over 10 years. You don't get this anywhere else. Heck for the most popular desktop Linux you get 9 months of support. MONTHS! Not even a year.
This is not the same thing AT ALL. Those desktop Linux systems can be upgraded to the next version. There are no new hardware requirements to upgrade to a new, supported version of Linux.
it will restart conversations (at every level of government) of the continued existence of Microsoft's monopoly power in the market
It will not do so in the slightest. Governments are wholly unaffected by this, they are already running Windows 11, or they have LTS agreements in place. And they really don't care much what consumers do with their hardware.
They absolutely are not running Windows 11 on all of their systems, and they DO NOT all have LTS agreements in place. Not even close. I know this for a fact, because I work for one of them.
Here we are, I don't know how many years later
This is the problem with your logic. We're here many years later. What was an antitrust issue in 1995 is now an expected minimum feature. Consumers expect that on a freshly installed PC the vendor provides an internet browser. Also no it's not more difficult to install a browser. Unless you mean clicking a single button (you can't auto default a browser, but you can automatically bring up the window for the user to click on your browser) is "difficult". I don't know anyone who uses Edge, and I know a lot of computer users who metaphorically couldn't tie their own digital shoelaces.
Your post is another typical case of Slashdot being out of touch with reality.
It is more difficult than it used to be; that's a known fact. And, at least in the earlier days, you could uninstall Internet Explo
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>"the reality is that one of the many consequences of this decision will be that, overall, there will be LESS network security. Mom and pop are not about to go out and buy a new computer just because their existing system stopped receiving updates. Microsoft can't disable computers and force them to, because that would be illegal."
^^^ THIS
Not the case for "corporate" or government computers, but for home, student, casual, and many small businesses, which probably account for maybe as many as half of MS-W
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This is not the same thing AT ALL. Those desktop Linux systems can be upgraded to the next version. There are no new hardware requirements to upgrade to a new, supported version of Linux.
Yet.
Didn't some Linux distros drop support for older, 32-bit CPUs?
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I figured that this would come up at some point in this thread, but you have to remember that the migration from 32-bit to 64-bit systems was done VERY gradually (over the course of ~20 years).
With the Windows 10 EOL there is a specific cutoff date and, in some extreme cases, there are 5 year old computers that don't meet the new requirements. Totally different, imo.
I would also point out that there are still plenty of Linux distros (Void, Arch and Peppermint, to name a few) that DO still provide a 32-bit
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>"Heck for the most popular desktop Linux you get 9 months of support. MONTHS! Not even a year. And consumers do not usually seek out LTS releases."
Linux Mint is one of THE most popular distros, and there is no short-term version. It has 5 years of updates for each version. And anytime before or after that, you can in-place upgrade to the next version.
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Back in 2015, Microsoft declared Windows 10 to be "the last version of Windows." People, and governments, were fine with it. Well 10 years later, and this is the EXACT OPPOSITE of that. Part of the reason for this is because, these days, publicly-traded companies don't think long-term. They care about earnings conference calls and stock prices. Can we really trust almost ALL of our modern IT infrastructure to ONE of these companies?
Let's not forget the rest of what they said in 2015 - they said windows 10 would be the last version of Windows AND THEY WOULD JUST KEEP UPDATING IT. Those updates, at some point, would require certain hardware to lose support for various reasons - did anyone really think that their Core 2 Duo desktop would be supported for 25, 30 years?
Also, clearly implied if not outright spoken at the time was that there'd be a new OS to replace Windows, that Windows 10 was the end of the Windows OS product line that sta
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IT would stop working, users couldn't do their jobs, work efficiency would drop 80%, of you would switch to Linux for common users.
Not really. In most government agencies, I'd say workers spend most of their time in a single application (like SAP) and the rest of their time doing other things on the web or using an office suite. In fact, in large organizations, this "one app" is a web application on the intranet. All you really need is a web browser, printer drivers and an office suite. Many office suites are also web-based these days. Considering today's labor market, if it were a job requirement to retrain on new software, I don
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That is simply nonsense. Obviously, people like you deeply fear change.
Source of 40% figure? (Score:2)
Windows 11 is compatible with CPUs sold in the last 7-8 years (Ryzen 2000 and newer, Core 8000 and newer). Considering business cycles, most businesses should have a Windows 11 compatible PC. For consumers, 7-8 years is also typically longer than the upgrade cycle. I know some people use older PCs, but the 40% figure feels high, and some of the people using older PCs are techies who might already use Linux.
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yes. until Microsoft starting putting scary popups in their software saying Win 10 was unsupported and that they should download a compatibility checker to see if they can upgrade to 11.
I'm no longer in my mother's basement and live the other side of town. She's in her 80s so explaining to her why her 16GB core i5 laptop is throwing out weird messages. She's wealthy enough she could buy a new laptop but then someone still has to migrate all her documents and explain to her why 11 doesn't work the same.
Mille
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I'm no longer in my mother's basement and live the other side of town. She's in her 80s so explaining to her why her 16GB core i5 laptop is throwing out weird messages.
If you want to flex over your moms robust laptop, you need to say what generation it is, so you can explain to us why she's relying on a 10 year-old cast-off laptop from you (did your mom really need 16 gigs of ram?)
Her messages aren't weird, would you prefer MS to silently just stop updating her laptop? Yes, there should be a way to override the alerts, but they aren't weird, they are useful if you fear being hacked.
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Windows 11 is compatible with CPUs sold in the last 7-8 years (Ryzen 2000 and newer, Core 8000 and newer). Considering business cycles, most businesses should have a Windows 11 compatible PC. For consumers, 7-8 years is also typically longer than the upgrade cycle. I know some people use older PCs, but the 40% figure feels high, and some of the people using older PCs are techies who might already use Linux.
PIRG doesn't cite a source. The only source I can find for the 40% figure is a blogpost by lansweeper from 2022 referenced https://www.zdnet.com/article/... [zdnet.com] But if you follow the link to the original source in that article you get an updated 2025 16 September article which is also the date of the PIRG press release announcing the initiative to get win 10 support extended https://pirg.org/media-center/... [pirg.org]
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I totally agree on your main point; 7-8 years is a good run for a specific major release of an OS, or any other
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Thanks for the detailed and interesting reply.
I don't think that Microsoft's TPM decision was arbitrary or benefits them or most of their partners. Forcing a standard is rarely a benefit to large corporations, more like a financial liability. But it's a good way to get the ecosystem to adopt something if it feels beneficial. That said, at this point TPM 2.0 is standard, and I think that Microsoft can relax the requirement. It's kind of like DRM in games: I can see why publishers want it, but once the game i
Re:Source of 40% figure? (Score:4, Interesting)
You are imagining rich, large companies where you have likely worked.
There are a ton of small companies, small warehouses, mom and pop restaurants, plumbers, and a myriad other small businesses that have no desire to upgrade their computers. It's a major pain and expense for them, and they don't have staff that know how to do it. So they keep that old PC going as LONG as they can.
As a software developer, I personally have two Windows PCs that don't quality for the upgrade. They're both working just fine, they're not even noticeably slower than my newest laptop, which is a couple of years old. I used Rufus to upgrade them to Windows 11, the tool worked great, I've had zero problems afterwards. The thing is, you've got to be a tech geek to be able to use a tool like Rufus.
No, I don't agree that it's a small problem.
Windows 10 EOL is an opportunity! (Score:2)
Well ... (Score:2)
... maybe governments should pay (with taxpayer money) for MS to continue Windows 10 support for all then?
I mean, if it's a public good (not to make X number of machines obsolete, etc.), then why shouldn't the public pay for it?
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I have a better idea: use that taxpayer money to take them to the courts again in order to break up the Microsoft monopoly and force them to split off the OS company once and for all. No more illegal bundling.
This would have a deterrent effect that would ensure that this sort of thing never happens again.
perfectly good computers will be thrown out (Score:2)
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People who use Windows computers, typically have no idea how to put Linux on a desktop. For them, Windows works fine, because the computer came with it preinstalled. They don't actually care what the OS is, they just want it to run Word, Excel, and let them browse the web. For people like that, Windows does indeed work perfectly well.
Windows in a VM on Linux (Score:2)
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As is hyper-v on win 10 and 11
Running Win 10 in a VM doesn't make it more secure, you know that, right?
Politicians (Score:2)
It did its job. (Score:2)
Windows 10 was sold. Microsoft made the money it wanted. Now they want more money. So, they want you to buy it again. They're simply cowards and do not say it out loud that it's subscription-based software. It's still the same OS, ever since windows 2k, if not earlier. It's not a different product. It's still "windows".
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Windows 10 was sold. Microsoft made the money it wanted. Now they want more money.
Of course they do. They're a business, not a charity. What else would you expect of any business? I know I don't go to work every day anticipating giving away my work product for free.
It's still the same OS, ever since windows 2k, if not earlier. It's not a different product. It's still "windows".
That's not exactly right. You can continue to use W10, you just won't get any bug fixes or security updates. Shoot, you could still run W2k if you wanted. That end of support is an issue tells me what you want is not literally the same W10 you bought three, five, or ten years ago.
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Please, explain how the free upgrade from Win 10 to 11 forces anyone to buy windows again. Then explain the greedy profit motive behind the free upgrade from windows 7 and 8/8.1 enriches Microsoft.
I guess Microsoft sucks at being greedy?
This is ridiculous (Score:2)
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They gave everyone 4+ years notice, at some point MS should be allowed to evolve their product.
Time for some WINE? (Score:3)
Perhaps this is a golden opportunity for civic minded programmers to spend some time getting WINE to the point where most users can comfortably run WINE instead of Windows XX.
Essentially make the key that allows users to let themselves out of the Microsoft jail they've been trapped in all these years.
Way Too Little, Way Too Late (Score:2)
This artificial expiration has been coming for a long time. Those in the industry have been working toward the deadline for over a year.
There is zero chance Microsoft walks this back with only one month to go. These petitioners are pissing in the wind way too late in the process.
In the enterprise space, we can buy Extended Security Updates(ESU) for at least another year, if we can't get converted fast enough.
It's a bullshit move on Microsoft's part. There was no real need for it. In the end it helps the har
US v. Microsoft (Score:2)
If I had to guess, we let this happen by the USA electing George W. Bush in 2000. His incoming Attorney General settled United States v. Microsoft Corp., 253 F.3d 34 (D.C. Cir. 2001), with a wrist slap instead of a Windows division breakup.