Why Volvo Is Replacing Every EX90's Central Computer (insideevs.com) 50
An anonymous reader quotes a report from InsideEVs: On Monday morning, I spoke to a Volvo EX90 owner who reported a litany of issues with her 2025 EX90: malfunctioning phone-as-a-key functionality, a useless keyfob, a keycard that rarely worked quickly, constant phone connection issues, infotainment glitches and error messages. I was surprised not because I hadn't heard of these kinds of problems, but because I experienced them myself over a year ago at the EX90 first drive again. At the time, Volvo said software fixes were imminent. Today, we know the issues go deeper. To solve them, Volvo announced on Tuesday that it will replace the central computer of every 2025 EX90 with the new one from the 2026 EX90. It's a tacit admission that the company can't solve the EX90's issues while simultaneously launching its next-generation software-defined vehicles, and that it's easier to replace the original computer than to build bug-free software for it. But for some, the damage to the Volvo brand has already been done. "I say without exaggeration that this car is a dumpster fire inside a train wreck," InsideEVs reader and EX90 owner Sally Greer told InsideEVs.
The report notes that Volvo will replace the computer inside the 2025 EX90 with a Nvidia Drive AGX Orin-based core computer that has contains over 500 TOPS (Trillion Operations Per Second) of power, which Volvo says will help power its autonomous driving ambitions.
The report notes that Volvo will replace the computer inside the 2025 EX90 with a Nvidia Drive AGX Orin-based core computer that has contains over 500 TOPS (Trillion Operations Per Second) of power, which Volvo says will help power its autonomous driving ambitions.
Oddly, not the complaint (Score:4, Funny)
"... which Volvo says will help power its autonomous driving ambitions."
So, while the original computer system was buggy as all hell. Volvo are replacing the computer not to rectify a single bug but rather to improve their AD ambitions.
Re:Oddly, not the complaint (Score:4, Interesting)
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Again, underspec'd wasn't the complaint.
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It is easier to have one target platform than two.
Re:Oddly, not the complaint (Score:4, Interesting)
Also, the older control unit may no longer be produced. Not always a bad thing if it had problems and they'll swap it out on recall. As a software defined vehicle, the 2025s probably don't get all the 2026 model year bells and whistles by default.
I was putting new brake pads in my 46 year old truck last week. The guy at the parts counter looked up the make and model and sad, "There's a note here. The pads for that have been discontinued. There's a replacement part number with a remark. The new pads no longer contain asbestos."
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I was putting new brake pads in my 46 year old truck last week. ... The new pads no longer contain asbestos."
So we'll see you next year typing the same post.
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Again, underspec'd wasn't the complaint.
It's not the complaint, but it's the offered fix. It's hard to believe that an underpowered processor is the reason for buggy software. Maybe there are some extra features on the Nvidia chip that aren't on the current chip, but there's no mention of that and it would be hard to believe anyways.
It's also hard to believe that Volvo decided to include a lidar that is not doing anything and yet also decided to include an underpowered processor. It almost sounds like they don't know what the problem is and th
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The Nvidia AGX Orin is perfectly capable of dealing with LIDAR. I have been doing some work with a group at the Alto University in Helsinki that has a bunch of cars kitted out with LIDAR a
and use Orin AGX for the processing. https://www.aalto.fi/en/department-of-energy-and-mechanical-engineering/autonomy-mobility-lab
Perhaps you are right in that Volvo don't know what the problem is. One problem is that it snows a lot around here and it's hard to find the road in front of you with LIDAR. What with snow on th
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Where is the spin that you claim? It's you asserting it is an upgrade.
incompatible mix (Score:2)
Even if not a guise but actually true, it's probably a bad idea for a car manufacturer to get into the auto-drive business because they are very different kinds of endeavors. Those who try to be both hardware and bot-software keep choking, including Tesla and Apple. If the top players choke at it, then a second-string like Volvo is more likely to win the lottery while getting struck by lightning while chewing gum on a unicycle than succeed.
Let bot co's build bots and car builders build cars. Instead Volvo
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it's probably a bad idea for a car manufacturer to get into the auto-drive business
It's also bad for them not to. Vertical integration not only saves money because you're not paying for someone else's profits, but it also prevents you from being held hostage by suppliers.
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That's what proprietary microcomputer companies believed. But open component standards greatly accelerated competition and options, flattening the proprietary players like Commodore and TRS. (Apple is the lone exception.)
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Volvo are replacing the computer not to rectify a single bug but rather to improve their AD ambitions.
More accurately, they are doing one which also happens to benefit the other. The EX90 launched with a LIDAR system that was at the time unused. It was always billed as car that would be improved over time, but it also launched as an exceptional trainwreak. A true beta product in the *WRONG* way. When people were told their car would improve over time they didn't think this would mean "Maybe in 6 months time your key will work".
I did NOT predict this. (Score:1, Funny)
Hey, CCP bots: I did not predict this.
Kidding!
Used to be jokes about the Microsoft Car (Score:3, Interesting)
back when Windows 95 would bluescreen if you looked at it funny and flagship apps would segfault like they were written for a freshman homework assignment. By a C student.
Also get off my lawn.
Life immitates art, it seems.
You don't need all that in a vehicle (Score:3, Interesting)
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This is why manufacturers want to make cars this way. They sell it to the public as features, but really they are forced obsolescence and make repairs entirely uneconomical.
well (Score:5, Interesting)
Having recently bought my first Volvo EV, a used C40, I can say that their software team is either sub par, working to impossible delivery deadlines by their managment or vastly understaffed. All of these are ultimately management issues. I have been lucky in that the software works just fine for us. but we came from a very non techy Honda CRV, so a non perfect interface is fine. However there are people on the C40 forums screaming about how terrible it is and that they can't possibly live without their Picture in picture backup camera coming up instantly. Overall the software is meh. the vehicle itself is fantastic. Quiet, smooth, and stupid fast. it is really a perfect commuter car for us.
Would I be happier with better software, maybe, but use it like a car and not a cell phone and its still many orders of magnitude better than a 1983 Chevy Citation.
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Until the car won't charge, won't unlock, won't go into gear and spontaneously shifts out of gear while driving. All problems my Polestar has, and for which more than 50% of the time it sits at the dealership. The problem isn't that I use the car as a cell phone, it's that I try to use it as a car.
Re:well (Score:4, Funny)
it's that I try to use it as a car.
You're holding it wrong.
This is why Lemon Laws were created (Score:4, Informative)
Who could have seen this coming? (Score:3)
Everyone, once Geely bought Volvo around 2010. The two companies only started merging their operations in 2020. Now the new Volvos seem to have more and more crappy electronics.
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Well the only people who "saw" this coming are those with a bias against China looking to apply an "I told you so" which doesn't make sense. I have a recent Geely sub-brand car and I've never been hit with a bug in the software system. A friend of my drives a Geely EX5, and the only "bug" there is that it was delivered from the factory with a scratched panel.
Those people who *actually* know Geely not only know that their software platforms generally work just fine, but they also know that the Volvo EX90 is
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Geely is fine. Their other brands have decent reliability records, like Zeekr, Polestar, other Volvo models, even Lotus (as far as luxury sports cars go). They aren't on the level of BYD or SAIC, but they are also not the reason why Volvo is having issues. Volvo is mostly antonymous, they just use Geely parts where possible, and the computer doesn't seem to have anything to do with them.
BYD just set a record for the fastest production car ever. In the video the driver lets go of the steering wheel at 350kph
Embedded software is hard (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: Embedded software is hard (Score:2)
One more level of subtlety required, grasshopper.
You can have all 10x coders on staff and in management, but if they all failed freshman physics (or avoided it at all costs, as many I know would have liked to), their embedded code isn't going to be functional if it controls real moving machinery in the real world.
What kind of absurd logic is this? (Score:3)
It's a tacit admission [...] that it's easier to replace the original computer than to build bug-free software for it.
How the hell is replacing the computer going to do anything to fix anything at all?
I see it as simply dropping 100% of software support and then moving onto the next model. This is exactly the kind of shitty corporate behavior that made me avoid getting an over-engineered and under-tested computer car.
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This is exactly the kind of shitty corporate behavior that made me avoid getting an over-engineered and under-tested computer car.
Forgive my pedantry, but if the thing doesn't work, including due to inadequate testing, it is under-engineered, not over-engineered. Engineering is a set of scientifically sound methods to reliably make shit that works.
Saying this as an engineer.
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Well, as a computer scientist, I tell you plainly that there is nothing to forgive because you are technically correct, the best kind of correct. I will take note of this to avoid the same error in the future.
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Engineers want more design and more testing, but management just wants them to push shit out the door now so $$$ can be made.
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The problems are not just software. They have some actual hardware problems as well with reports of screens randomly dying and needing to be replaced.
I see it as simply dropping 100% of software support and then moving onto the next model. This is exactly the kind of shitty corporate behavior that made me avoid getting an over-engineered and under-tested computer car.
What behaviour? At no point are they dropping support. In fact this is the opposite, they are upgrading hardware and continuing to support and making support easier for them without expense to you. This is the wrong hill you're choosing to die on.
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The problems are not just software. They have some actual hardware problems as well with reports of screens randomly dying and needing to be replaced.
OK, that explains it a bit more because I know it's easier/cheaper to make a single platform than make two. However, the summary makes it seem like this is a total redesign (with a new software stack) rather than merely fixing what was broken. New hardware is good, entirely new bugs is less good.
What behaviour? At no point are they dropping support. In fact this is the opposite, they are upgrading hardware and continuing to support and making support easier for them without expense to you.
This is my fault, I misread "replace the central computer of every 2025 EX90 with the new one from the 2026 EX90" as "replace the central computer of every 2025 EX90 with the new one in the 2026 EX90" which implies
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From the sound of it they are having issues with under-performance causing lag, and/or bad wireless interfaces. The CPU and the wireless chip are probably soldered to the PCB and not replaceable, so easiest thing will be to just replace the whole computer.
They may also have run into component reliability or software premature ageing issues. Tesla had that with early model computers, where excessive logging would wear the flash memory out in a few years and brick the car. They were very difficult about out-o
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The CPU and the wireless chip are probably soldered to the PCB and not replaceable, so easiest thing will be to just replace the whole computer.
You would think companies would learn to make electronics that are more modular but they can't seem to help themselves and keep over-optimizing for cost. Yes, this does improve mechanical reliability but PC/104 connectors are so reliable that it's used for satellites.
Tesla had that with early model computers, where excessive logging would wear the flash memory out in a few years and brick the car.
Ha! I remember that. If I recall correctly, they left on some (kernel?) debugging and it basically turned the computer into an eMMC flash memory wear tester, another simple but expensive mistake.
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It's not worth it. For every time it costs you money to replace the whole unit, another 9 times you saved money.
Especially in cars where electronics need to be highly resistant to vibration and moisture. You don't want sockets or rework on the boards.
Go further (Score:3)
Replace the SUV altogether. Fuck SUVs.
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The EX90 is a European SUV, I think in America they call them "compact"
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Hell, my Hyundai Inster is called a SUV, but it is just a slightly taller subcompact.
OMG. They used Nvidia Drive AGX Orin. (Score:3)
We have been using Nvidia AGX Orin for a few projects around here for two years or more. OMG what a pile of shit the supplied software is. Damn thing runs some version of Ubuntu f'ed up by Nvidia. Ubuntu is of course already a version of Debian f'ed up by Canonical. Nvidia's support for that POS is just garbage. Nvidia manages to break everything with new releases. Get your stuff working on one and be ready for massive problems getting it to run on the next. Of course they require new OS releases for every new hardware revision of AGX Orin. So I'm not surprised Volvo has given up and decided it's better to replace all those installed Orins's with newer ones.
Initially I thought these problems were down to our own ignorance and incompetence but no, I get similar reports from other companies trying to use that crap. And now Volvo.
This is not what we are used from hardware/software intended for mission/safety critical applications, like for example in cars.
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We have been using Nvidia AGX Orin for a few projects around here for two years or more. OMG what a pile of shit the supplied software is.
I think the AGX Orin is one of the reasons I'm so deeply frustrated with AMD. Fuck's sake guys throw us a bone for the love of god please. I would take quite a hit on the hardware to move off the AGX Orin. I don't, like almost everyone use custom CUDA, I just use pytorch and/or some inference framework that I don't care for strongly.
Why can thy not release something with
I wonder... (Score:2)
Did it work on their machine?
Seems an odd fix for 'software issues'... (Score:3, Insightful)
"malfunctioning phone-as-a-key functionality, a useless keyfob, a keycard that rarely worked quickly, constant phone connection issues, infotainment glitches and error messages"
is not needing the same functionality that the following provides:
"a Nvidia Drive AGX Orin-based core computer that has contains over 500 TOPS (Trillion Operations Per Second) of power, which Volvo says will help power its autonomous driving ambitions"
This is for lane assist, speed limit assist, auto-braking, follow mode, and other modern cruise control systems that many don't use.
This really should not be same computer (but I presume there is a VM here with static allocation) as the keyfobs, bluetooth, and especially the infotainment system.
I suspect the wireless module in the old computer board was crap (or otherwise poor motherboard design) and the new board fixes that, but also comes with the above features as a bonus.
Re: Seems an odd fix for 'software issues'... (Score:2)
That was my thoughts too, all the issues relate to wireless. There are wireless and Bluetooth chips that are so bad no amount of software makes them properly interoperate with other devices.
My fix would've been to add a dummy key card or similar somewhere in the car and reboot/power cycle the computer whenever the wireless goes bananas and loses contact with the dummy. (It's what I do on my RPI5).
Faster HW sometimes fixes SW problems (Score:2)
As others have pointed out, embedded software is hard, real-world timing problems are unforgiving. Now one possibility that occurred to me is the problems may be related to timing managed by the operating system. If they're using a typical cyclical executive with timeframes allocated for each task, and some tasks can't be completed within its allotted timeframe, then a faster computer would fix those problems. Comms protocols, in particular, often have timing constraints where if you can't complete the t
Confused (Score:2)
Used cars... (Score:2)
A relative just recently bought a used car, an 8 year old car.
I had a fit of laughter when the screen booted up proudly announcing "certified for windows Vista" .
Nothing physical can keep up in novelty with software, stop trying to make it so.
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an 8 year old car.
"certified for windows Vista" .
So, please forgive the pedantry - actually, it might actually be more to your point - but the math ain't mathing here.
General Availability for Windows Vista was in January of 2007, which was 18 years ago. Its EOL date was in April 2017, 9 years ago.
If the car is really eight years old, even if it was a model-year and was the very first one of its model year, it STILL would be newer than Vista's EOL date. Eight years ago, Windows 10 was already out for two years.
Half of me wants to believe the story that the
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Pedantry accepted. 9 and something years: built in 2016. Sorry.
Volvo Android Automotive OS sucks (Score:2)
Software-defined vehicles .. (Score:2)