The World's Electric Car Sales Have Spiked 21% So Far in 2025 (electrek.co) 169
Electrek reports:
EV and battery supply chain research specialists Benchmark Mineral Intelligence reports that 2.0 million electric vehicles were sold globally in November 2025, bringing global EV sales to 18.5 million units year-to-date. That's a 21% increase compared to the same period in 2024.
Europe was the clear growth leader in November, while North America continued to lag following the expiration of US EV tax credits. China, meanwhile, remains the world's largest EV market by a wide margin. Europe's EV market jumped 36% year-over-year in November 2025, with BEV sales up 35% and plug-in hybrid (PHEV) sales rising 39%. That brings Europe's total EV sales to 3.8 million units for the year so far, up 33% compared to January-November 2024... In North America, EV sales in the US did tick up month-over-month in November, following a sharp October drop after federal tax credits expired on September 30, 2025. Brands including Kia (up 30%), Hyundai (up 20%), Honda (up 11%), and Subaru (232 Solterra sales versus just 13 the month before) all saw gains, but overall volumes remain below levels when the federal tax credit was still available... [North America shows a -1% drop in EV sales from January to November 2025 vs. January to November 2024]
Year-to-date, EV sales in China are up 19%, with 11.6 million units sold. One of the biggest headlines out of China is exports. BYD reported a record 131,935 EV exports in November, blowing past its previous high of around 90,000 units set in June. BYD sales in Europe have jumped more than fourfold this year to around 200,000 vehicles, doubled in Southeast Asia, and climbed by more than 50% in South America...
"Overall, EV demand remains resilient, supported by expanding model ranges and sustained policy incentives worldwide," said Rho Motion data manager Charles Lester.
Beyond China, Europe, and North America, the rest of the world saw a 48% spike in EV sales in 2025 vs the same 11 months in 2024, representing 1.5 million EVs sold.
"The takeaway: EV demand continues to grow worldwide," the article adds, "but policy support — or the lack thereof — is increasingly shaping where this growth shows up."
Year-to-date, EV sales in China are up 19%, with 11.6 million units sold. One of the biggest headlines out of China is exports. BYD reported a record 131,935 EV exports in November, blowing past its previous high of around 90,000 units set in June. BYD sales in Europe have jumped more than fourfold this year to around 200,000 vehicles, doubled in Southeast Asia, and climbed by more than 50% in South America...
"Overall, EV demand remains resilient, supported by expanding model ranges and sustained policy incentives worldwide," said Rho Motion data manager Charles Lester.
Beyond China, Europe, and North America, the rest of the world saw a 48% spike in EV sales in 2025 vs the same 11 months in 2024, representing 1.5 million EVs sold.
"The takeaway: EV demand continues to grow worldwide," the article adds, "but policy support — or the lack thereof — is increasingly shaping where this growth shows up."
Charging at home (Score:5, Insightful)
Charging on the road is actually more expensive than buying gasoline. Charging at home is MUCH cheaper and most of the charging gets done at home.
But the real issues are rentals, condos, and work. The lack of charging at these sites is an issue.
If your apartment/condo has parking spots, some should have electrical chargers and the price should be at cost, not a profit center for the apartment/condo. Same for work places.
This needs to be a law, otherwise bad landlords/condos/offices will try to make a profit here, thinking they are offering a 'service' and should be compensated. They are not offering a service unless the locations are open to the public.
Re:Charging at home (Score:5, Interesting)
I think some of this is just businesses catching up.
Last month my hotel had chargers in their underground parking so I thought about topping up my PHEV, until I looked at the rates and realized it would cost far more than gas.
As expected, I didn't see the chargers in use a single time over my 3 day stay.
Imagine instead the chargers were free. The cost would be on par with the complimentary coffee pods and toiletries, and I would have come away with a very positive experience.
Installing paid chargers was a bad business decision by the hotel, I expect more public free charging in the future.
Re:Charging at home (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't, because the "fuck you, I've got mine" drivers will immediately hog them.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Charging at home (Score:5, Informative)
I don't, because the "fuck you, I've got mine" drivers will immediately hog them.
Hotels should just make them free, but room key-activated, so only guests can use them. And, of course, they need to install enough that they aren't oversubscribed.
If you're doing a road trip in an EV, being able to charge overnight while you're sleeping (just like at home) is marvelous. When I'm road-tripping I try to stay only at hotels with free chargers. There are actually plenty of them, at least in the US, so I succeed in staying at a place with a charger about 90% of the time.
Being able to charge overnight and start the day with a 100% charge means that I generally don't have to charge except during lunch and dinner, which means I can drive several hundred miles per day but spend zero time waiting for charging. I just have to make sure I stay at a hotel with a level 2 charger and eat lunch and dinner at places near superchargers. Not starting the day at 100% changes the dynamics significantly, requiring two quick supercharger stops for partial charges in the morning (if you're trying to minimize time spent charging, you only charge to about 60%, which takes about 20 minutes, vs an hour to get to 100%).
Re: (Score:2)
Can confirm, it was an issue when charging was free in the UK. A small fee soon freed them up for people who actually need them.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I thought about topping up my PHEV
I hate to be "that guy" but if your vehicle has a gas tank you should leave the public chargers available for people driving full EVs. They don't have the option of going to a gas station when on a long road trip.
The whole point of a plug in hybrid is to take advantage of presumably cheaper utility rates at home. When you're travelling away from home, that's what the ICE portion of your powertrain is for.
Re: (Score:3)
I'll argue here. If "away from home" is going to work and on the way home I choose to stop by the grocery store and use their free charger (we have them at my work place, only two but hey, its free!) if it's open, then I don't see the problem with a PHEV or an EV using it. We also have Tesla superchargers on the far side of the parking lot as well.
The idea of these "free chargers" is to get people to ultimately use fewer gallons of gas and therefore dump less pollution into the environment. That's good, reg
Re:Charging at home (Score:5, Insightful)
I thought about topping up my PHEV
I hate to be "that guy" but if your vehicle has a gas tank you should leave the public chargers available for people driving full EVs.
As a driver of an EV, I disagree. I'd appreciate it if the PHEV (and EV!) drivers moved their vehicles when they are full, but as long as they're actively charging I don't see a problem with it. I suppose if the chargers are oversubscribed I'd appreciate PHEV drivers leaving them for the EVs, but that just means more chargers should be installed.
Re: (Score:2)
Talking about Hotels anywhere related to cost is massively skew compared to literally any other business. I honestly was floored by simply the cost of parking at a hotel in the USA, to say nothing of them nickel and diming every tiny fucking thing.
The difference isn't that big in Europe. Using a L2 charger at the Marriott in Frankfurt is almost similar in cost to a L3 DC fast charger in Huenxe on the highway reststop. But hotels seem to be virtually the only ones who price themselves insanely out of the mar
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Charging away from home (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
So you are saying that the U.S. is severely lacking in charging infrastructure
Around here in FL at least, you absolutely could own an EV that you charged exclusively at DCFC stations - and you'd pay through the nose for it. That's not an infrastructure problem, it's a capitalism problem.
Re:Charging at home (Score:4, Interesting)
I have no illusions that my country is perfect. Hoo boy are we flawed. But, wow, the alternatives have much more severe problems. Who else is gonna take the top spot. Europe? They make the US look young and nimble. China? Mmaaayyybbeee, except their true form of government is a hereditary oligarchy, and they’re approaching the third generation of sons that’ll be leading. That *never* goes well. Don’t take my word for it. Study history. If you’re pro-China, you should be *really* worried about that.
Who else? Russia? South America? Africa? The middle east? Don’t make me laugh.
For the next century, the options for top dog are the US, the US, the US, the US and a distant 5th is China, but only if their governmental system changes, otherwise they’re level-capped. Nobody else is even on the field.
Re:Charging at home (Score:4, Funny)
If the US election cycle starts to fail or get truly corrupted, that’s the canary in the coal mine indicating that we’re 1 or 2 generations from falling out of the top spot. Despite what conspiracy theorists say, our elections are still solid.
Dynasties, on the other hand, almost *never* last past the third generation.
Re: (Score:2)
That's not what I took away from his post. The US is a giant which appears to be dying slowly. But what replaces the US? The answer is possibly nothing, and the world will consist of regional players for a long time.
Also, I don't think the US is going to die as such. Europe is littered with the remnants of powerful empires. None of them have returned as a great empire, sure, but the EU does have global economic influence. In a kind of cack handed and incompetent way, sure, but it does. You get that for simp
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Well, considering recent events I would say that "second world" is the correct term either way.
State of the worlds? (Score:2)
Mod parent funny. (But what I was looking for in the comments was time-based electricity rate considerations.)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, I could go with "shit-hole" for the USA as well. Certainly more and more accurate every day. Although I have to say most shit-holes at least have a dictator in place that knows how to oppress people and steal everything, not some two-bit wannabe that is a failure at everything ...
Re: (Score:2)
I mean, I'd still rather live in this shit hole USA then 90% of the rest of the world. People also still seem to want to immigrate here from their country and a lot of people still want to come to school here. If we are such a shit hole country, you would think most of these people would not bother coming here at all.
So really, calling USA shit hole just because of politics seems silly. Sure, we could do better but life's pretty darn good here. Even under Trump. Maybe just stop reading the news and you'll f
Re: (Score:3)
I mean, I'd still rather live in this shit hole USA then 90% of the rest of the world.
That is because you do not know the rest of the world and have eaten up the propaganda.
Re: (Score:2)
The economical characterisation you use "economically challenged countries that have not advanced" is formally referred as "developed", "developing" and "least advanced" countries by international organisations like the UN or the IMF (which don't use "third world" as nomenclature). You can check Wikipedia for "First World", "Second World", "Third World", "Three-world model". There isn't a new definition, but economists have argued that the "Three world" nomenclature is less relevant since the end of the Col
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The difference is not that large. "Much younger" is a direct lie.
Re: (Score:2)
Unlike say South Korea, Japan, Europe...you can drive across the entire country in a day. In the USA it takes DAYS to cross the entire country.
People in Europe aren't restricted to stay in one country their whole lives. In fact it's not uncommon for them to drive from one country, right across another into a third. A friend of mine, who lives in France, relatively near the border, did his PhD in Italy. Plus, I think you've failed to understand how long Japan is and that driving from one end to the other would be difficult due to sea getting in the way. But Kagoshima to Aomori is about 1200 miles. I don't think you could safely drive that in a day
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Charging at home (Score:4, Informative)
Here's another article with the same conclusion: https://www.strategyand.pwc.co... [pwc.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Not entirely useless, but it's not useful to buy a car that doesn't do what you may need it to. It's a lot of money to spend just to box yourself in.
The counter to this is why buy one that pollutes more 99% of the time just so it can be used for that 1% when you can use alternative means (including not driving a dangerous amount of time non-stop which you kid yourself you are good at) or hire one. Sure, if you are hauling a boat every weekend and you can't find an EV that does it reliably, fine, but if it's having to move house across three states, then perhaps plan ahead a bit more.
Why should I subsidize EVs? (Score:3, Interesting)
From what I understand electric cars don't substantially reduce the demand for gasoline. I thought they did but someone had corrected me.
If the entire fleet of American cars changed to elec
Re:Why should I subsidize EVs? (Score:4, Informative)
From what I understand electric cars don't substantially reduce the demand for gasoline. I thought they did but someone had corrected me.
"Someone" told you wrong.
If the entire fleet of American cars changed to electric that might be the case but I think the oil companies would have something to say about that. So that's not going to happen.
Ah, you nailed the key point: a trillion dollar industry has a vested interest in selling as much oil as possible, and is doing whatever they can toward killing electric cars.
Never mind the fact that the increased cost of an EV puts it out of the price range of a lot of people especially now that the subsidies are gone.
Google "learning curve". Technology prices always start high and drop low.
So you can do the math (Score:2)
Honestly if we're going to get mad at oil companies we should get mad at car companies too. Go watch Who Framed Roger Rabbit.
A automobile based transportation system is horrible for everyone except car companies and people who like cars because they grew up with them. But those same feelings of love for your car could just as easily be redirected to
Re: (Score:2)
"Someone" told you wrong.
That probably was me, and I've brought receipts.
EVs represent 1.4% of the US vehicle fleet. [edmunds.com] There's a lot of cars in the USA. If you assume demand is linear and just added an extra 1.4% to the price of gas, well, that'd raise the current average price of gas by about $0.04/gal.
Granted, the real economics are probably a bit more squirrely if say, a magic genie showed up and granted the petroleum industry their wish that every EV instantly became a dino-juice burner, as the sudden surge in demand would caus
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
At the end of the day as someone stuck driving old gas cars why should I be required to subsidize electric cars? Either with my tax dollars or with my rent.
To put it another way: "Why should I have to contribute to society? I don't need [xyz]."
Being a part of society has non-negotiable responsibilities. There is no opt out.
I contribute to society (Score:2)
So yeah you have a right to demand that I chip in for things that benefit me but you have no right to demand I subsidize your personal choices.
That's the argument you're going to get. And honestly if we're talking about cars it's right. We shouldn't have a car based transportation system to begin with it's ludicrously inefficient and only exists because we externalize the costs from it.
So you're going to have a tough time convincin
Re: (Score:2)
Because society benefits me. Electric cars aren't benefiting me.
Society benefits everyone. Everyone contributes to society. Non-negotiable.
Re: (Score:2)
[I contribute to society] Because society benefits me
I see society differently. I don't see it as something like a shop in which I can make a transaction if I like the goods they offer, or I can ignore it if I don't.
I see society as the community of people with which we live. If a member of society is weak, I am in favour of lifting them up. If a member of society is strong, I am in favour of them lending a helping hand.
I care for its future. As a part of society, I am in favour of investing for a better future, even if I am not a direct beneficiary.
Re: (Score:2)
Because society benefits me. Electric cars aren't benefiting me.
Yes they are. How many wars has the USA fought, how many governments has the USA toppled, and how many dictatorships has the USA supported to help protect oil supplies? What were the costs of those in actual dollars, casualties, injuries, and blowback (ie, the 9/11 attacks)? How many abandoned oil wells and oil spills has the US government been forced to clean up? How many people have health issues such as asthma or cancer because of vehicle exhaust and what has been the financial toll? The list goes o
Re: (Score:2)
Being a part of society has non-negotiable responsibilities. There is no opt out.
Also, government is the enemy.
Re: (Score:2)
Never mind the fact that the increased cost of an EV puts it out of the price range of a lot of people especially now that the subsidies are gone.
In Europe, the price of an EV is on par with a gasoline car right now, and in East Asia, EVs are cheaper than gasoline cars.
Re: (Score:2)
Also isn't a Volkswagen t-roc or t-ceoss around 30,000 euros versus 43,000 for an equivalent Tesla?
Again though I think you've got more choices because Europe is allowing those cheap Chinese electric cars into their markets.
Re: (Score:2)
We have cheaper cars in Europe overall. Lots of small cheap cars available. Chinese competition certainly increases price pressures, but it’s not the sole factor. Plenty of cheap EVs from European OEMs too, eg the Dacia Spring
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
A Kia EV3 would be the more likely equivalent to a Volkswagen T-Roc, and it comes in at 36,000 Euro. If you configure the T-Roc to be more close to the EV3 in amenities, you need to look at least for the T-Roc Life, which includes a rear view camera and adaptive cruise control. It's already above 34,000 Euro. If you want front seats to be adjustable for height, you need the Style line, and you are at 38,000 Euro.
Re: (Score:2)
From what I understand electric cars don't substantially reduce the demand for gasoline. I thought they did but someone had corrected me.
Yes because when I replace a gasoline vehicle with an electric one I just go down to the station to fill up gasoline into a barrel and then roll it off in the ocean or some shit like that?
Maybe you should think when someone is "correcting" you. Literally every EV on the road is a substitute for a different vehicle with similar modal properties. No one is saying "I was riding a bicycle, but now that EVs don't use gas I'll go by a car" they are substituting one gasoline car for an EV. The former runs on ... g
Re: (Score:2)
If I'm driving a gas car then why should I have to subsidize anyone in my apartment let's driving an electric car?
I drive an EV. Why should I subsidize your gas car with oil industry tax incentives?
Also, it's a false dichotomy. Apartment buildings can install metered chargers and pay for them through user fees. At 2 cent per kWh surcharge, they'll pay themselves back in about 7-10 years.
Re: (Score:2)
I drive an EV. Why should I subsidize your gas car with oil industry tax incentives?
Remove all the parts from your EV, charging infrastructure, and roads made directly or indirectly from oil and there will no EV, chargers, or roads left.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Charging at home (Score:2)
Gas stations will replace your propane tanks
Don't see why they can't do the same with batteries
Re: (Score:2)
Gas stations will replace your propane tanks
Don't see why they can't do the same with batteries
EVs aren't designed to be able to do this as it reduces overall structure weight if they are somewhat integrated into it. To make them replaceable requires additional car structural elements plus trunions and the like. It also requires standardisation, warranties, etc. That just not in place. Plus there is the potential issue of damaging connectors and the like causing issues such as fires. With the rate of charging increasing so rapidly, it's not likely to happen because the demand for it will be too low.
Re: (Score:2)
But the real issues are rentals, condos, and work. The lack of charging at these sites is an issue.
Not all charging is equal. Those people who say charging on "on the road" is more expensive are almost universally talking DC Fast Chargers. The point isn't one or the other. There's over 100,000 L2 chargers in the USA mostly in cities, and they are only a smidgen more expensive than charging at home. It would be great if condo's provided charging at cost, but they don't have to in order to be competitive. There very much is an ability to make profit (which encourages the placement of chargers) while still
Re: (Score:2)
Charging on the road is actually more expensive than buying gasoline. Charging at home is MUCH cheaper and most of the charging gets done at home.
How much are you paying per KWH? My last bill had supply + delivery at $0.30/KWH. At that price it's comparable to gasoline which currently is $2.79/gallon in my area. The annual EV tax in my state is $250 to offset the fuel tax loss. So an EV getting 3.5 miles/kwh costs $1107 for 10,000 miles in a year. A gas car getting 25 MPG costs $1,116. And electricity is projected to go up while gasoline goes down.
Apartment charging isn't about bad landlords (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Depends where you public charge. Tesla is usually the cheapest for some reason, and it's much cheaper than petrol.
There is also work place charging, but yes laws need implementing to make home charging mandatory for everyone.
US Tesla sales are down 25% (Score:2)
Other car companies are having a hard time too with their electrics. Tesla obviously takes the biggest hit cuz electric is all they do.
It probably also doesn't help th
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, the charging situation is interesting.
If you charge at home, so much cheaper than gas.
If you can't charge at home, so much more expensive than gas.
Re: (Score:2)
But it does still mean that if you don't have your own house with a charging setup you don't get the savings.
I guess there are people who can charge for free at work.
For Tesla I think the real problem is going to be that losing 20% of their sales after paying their CEO $100 billion dollars in salary means they aren't really go
Re: (Score:2)
I don't think it's really any more expensive for the sort of person buying a Tesla since that person is probably going to buy a big honking SUV with a big honking gas tank.
That has always been the most paradoxical aspect of Tesla ownership - if you can afford a Tesla, you probably also can afford gas.
For a very brief period in time the numbers almost worked out for my partner. Back when gas was more expensive, there was still a tax credit and discounts were being offered on the Model 3, the gas savings would've made buying a Model 3 just a sliver cheaper than his current car payment plus what he was spending in gas every month (for a longer-than-the-national-average commute)
Re: (Score:2)
The Camrys from 10 years ago had really nice seats, great lumbar support. I'd buy one now if I found one with low mileage. Not really interested in the newer models where they are running the drivetrain through the stereo.
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, the charging situation is interesting.
If you charge at home, so much cheaper than gas.
If you can't charge at home, so much more expensive than gas.
It really depends on where you live. For 10,000 miles in a year gasoline vs electricity is pretty comparable in my area, because gas is dropping, electricity is rising, and they have enacted a $250 EV annual fee to offset lost gas tax revenue.
Re: (Score:3)
So a lot of people are stuck in apartments and not going to be considering an electric for savings.
The savings ain't always what it used to be depending on where you live and what type of ICE car you compare against. Going with all present US averages for gas presently at $2.92/gal, home utility rates at $0.18/kWh, and an average of 13,596 miles driven annually:
A 4kWh per mile EV would cost $611.82/yr, and a base model Camry (at an average 51MPG) would cost $778.45/yr.
Now, here's where the savings go *poof*:
Some states charge an EV registration fee that's more than the difference in fuel costs. EVs are
Re:US Tesla sales are down 25% (Score:5, Informative)
This paper [wiley.com] does a thorough comparison of total cost of ownership between EVs and ICEs. Once you factor in everything, the conclusion is... that it's really complicated. From the abstract:
We show that for a 300-mile range midsize electric SUV, TCO varies by $52,000, or nearly 40%, across locations. Home charging access reduces the lifetime cost by approximately $10,000 on average, and up to $26,000. EVs are more competitive in cities with high gasoline prices, low electricity prices, moderate climates, and direct purchase incentives, and for users with home charging access, time-of-use electricity pricing, and high annual mileage. In general, we find that small and low-range EVs are less expensive than gasoline vehicles. Larger, long-range EVs are currently more expensive than their gasoline counterparts. And midsize EVs can reach cost parity in some cities if incentives are applied.
This study is specific to the US, which isn't a typical market. The small, inexpensive EVs that are popular in many other countries don't exist there. You just can't buy them. The US EV market is heavily focused on large vehicles (especially SUVs and pickups) and luxury cars. That biases the TCO upward a lot compared to many other countries.
Re: (Score:2)
This paper [wiley.com] does a thorough comparison of total cost of ownership between EVs and ICEs. Once you factor in everything, the conclusion is... that it's really complicated. From the abstract:
We show that for a 300-mile range midsize electric SUV, TCO varies by $52,000, or nearly 40%, across locations. Home charging access reduces the lifetime cost by approximately $10,000 on average, and up to $26,000. EVs are more competitive in cities with high gasoline prices, low electricity prices, moderate climates, and direct purchase incentives, and for users with home charging access, time-of-use electricity pricing, and high annual mileage. In general, we find that small and low-range EVs are less expensive than gasoline vehicles. Larger, long-range EVs are currently more expensive than their gasoline counterparts. And midsize EVs can reach cost parity in some cities if incentives are applied.
This study is specific to the US, which isn't a typical market. The small, inexpensive EVs that are popular in many other countries don't exist there. You just can't buy them. The US EV market is heavily focused on large vehicles (especially SUVs and pickups) and luxury cars. That biases the TCO upward a lot compared to many other countries.
I was interested in a model Y and ran the numbers in my area. There was no cost savings compared to a 25mpg car. Ignoring the cost of the new car, electricity at home is now $0.30/kwh (supply + delivery), gas is $2.79/gallon, and the state EV fee is $250. In addition the insurance costs for the Y were significantly higher than the car it would have been replacing. I liked the Y a lot and I really want FSD someday. But if your motivation is purely economic the numbers don't pan out.
Re: (Score:2)
Damn it, that should've read "A 4 mile per kWh EV". The math is otherwise right:
(13596 / 4) * 0.18 = 611.82
Re: (Score:2)
A 4kWh per mile EV would cost $611.82/yr
The average large EV fuel economy is 4 _miles_ per kWh, but your math is correct. Except that you're comparing a large-ish SUV (Model Y) and the tiniest, most sluggish Camry. Model 3 RWD short range is 5 miles per kWh. Fuel price is also very volatile, and it's pushed down by the very EVs that benefit from its increase.
More importantly, the vehicle price itself is a big part of the savings. The US does NOT produce cheap EVs, but China does. E.g. Leapmotor A10 CUV is priced at $15k for the base model: http [moparinsiders.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Tesla had a tight supply of most models before the credit ended. Now they have a glut. Tons of Model 3P to choose from, where before there were none. Musk DGAF. He's going public with SpaceX.
Re: (Score:2)
Tesla sales are down because... Elon Musk.
Re: (Score:2)
Which is almost exactly the number of people who are buying them with the tax credits.
The trend is repeated in multiple nations with different tax or subsidy incentives or none.
Re:It's all fun now, but ... (Score:4)
Nice FUD you have there. Makes you part of the problem.
Re:It's all fun now, but ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, sure, but you can say the same thing of so much in automotive tech...
When all those gaskets need to be replaced, when the transmission grinds itself, when the coolant system leaks, when the turbo goes, if the timing belt goes, every few months when you change the oil, etc etc.
Sure, it's a item worthy of being wary of and a good opportunity to improve, but it's not like ICE engines are nice and immune from expensive costs down the line.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Battery failure is between 1-3%.. akin to engine failure. They are finding LFP packs retain their health for far longer than thought as well.
Big oil told you wrong.
Re:It's all fun now, but ... (Score:4, Interesting)
My friend has a 2013 Model S with 290,000 miles on it (yeah he drives a 25k miles per year). The battery still gives him nearly 180 miles, it was originally 210. Biggest maintenance expense is tire changes, and I think he had to replace his windshield once. That's not anecdotal or an anomaly, you can check online it's typical. He will get a new car next year only because the it is starting to have cosmetic issues and he wants to have full self driving.
Re: (Score:2)
About a year ago, a friend of mine demo’s model 3 self driving to me. In a 10 minute city drive, he had to intervene once to keep us from hitting another vehicle, and a second time to stop from running down a pedestrian.
I’m in favor of developing for self driving cars. They’re not
Re: (Score:2)
About a year ago, a friend of mine demo’s model 3 self driving to me. In a 10 minute city drive, he had to intervene once to keep us from hitting another vehicle, and a second time to stop from running down a pedestrian.
That's unusually bad, even for a year ago, but FSD has improved enormously since then. There were some huge updates around ~August that made it go from "Workable, but you have to watch it like a hawk" to "Really quite good, though still needs light supervision". I use FSD all the time and almost never have to intervene. It even passes the wife test now, meaning she uses it nearly all of the time, too, and I'd have said that would never happen.
OTOH, I used Waymo all last week for commuting around the ba
So the batteries aren't much of a problem (Score:2)
The real problem is that everything else on the vehicle ends up being very expensive to fix so it ends up being like a BMW where it ends up in the junkyard and rotting there because it needs $20,000 worth of repairs. Also you typically need specialized tools and computer systems to do those repairs. So besides the occasional hobbyist that resurrects one most of the electric cars on the market today are destine
Re:It's all fun now, but ... (Score:4, Interesting)
We even have the reverse problem. With Lithium prices skyrocketing a few years ago (and returning to normal now), lots of businesses popped up to recycle used car batteries to sell the lithium for a profit. Most of those businesses struggle now, because there are not enough batteries to recycle, because they are still healthy and going strong.
Re: (Score:2)
Let's be clear -- the thing that solved this was actively heating/cooling the battery packs. The failure of the leaf batteries was due to being passive.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
An ICE doesn't come with a huge price tag after 8 years.
An ICE definitely comes with a huge price tag at the range you can ride a typical EV. The data is in, a typical EV battery will outlast the entire car engine requiring either engine replacement or ground up re-build. That from experience costs thousands of dollars which is why the reason so many people scrap their cars at 200000 miles (my last ICE car got turned into a small cube at 190000miles, ok I was being facetous, it was actually broken down into components and sold for scrap and spares). 200000 miles
Re: (Score:2)
An ICE doesn't come with a huge price tag after 8 years.
Neither does an EV. After 8 years an EV's battery pack will have degraded a little; perhaps it'll only have 85-90% of the range that it had when new (the 8-year warranty generally guarantees 80%). But the degradation curve is actually front-loaded; you lose the largest amount of range in the first year, less in the second, and so on. By the time it's 20 years old it will probably only have 75% of the range it had new. At 30 years, 70%, and so on.
Barring some manufacturing problem or catastrophic event,
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Gasoline was pushed by oil companies because they had nothing else to do with this byproduct
Maybe originally, but now the demand for gasoline far outstrips the amount naturally found in crude oil. That's why they invented cracking.
If one day there ever were an excess of light components in oil, they could simply transform it into higher-weight molecules. Along those lines, one of the biggest uses for natural gas is for building polymer chains.
Re: (Score:2)
What do you plan to do with all of the gasoline that is put out by refining oil?
You really should read up a bit on the modern chemistry involved in oil refining. Nothing is really a "byproduct" anymore - the output can be entirely tweaked using additional processing.
Re: (Score:2)
The byproducts have shifted. Now the wells (at least in West Texas) pull out way more natural gas than the company cares to sell or store, in pursuit of gasoline. The natural gas is literally burned off at the wellhead, immediately upon extraction. Thrown away. (How's that for "energy security?") The process is called flaring.
The gas is so cheap that it doesn't make economic sense for them to build storage capacity. It's to the point that the oil industry promotes natural-gas vehicles and appliances just so
Re: (Score:2)
If natural gas was as easy to get to the refinery as a barrel of crude oil, you better believe they'd process it into something more marketable. Of course, if it was easier to transport, they'd just sell it as-is to power plants.
Re: (Score:3)
That was an interesting point. I thought about it for a second and asked AI "If gasoline was not refined from crude oil, how many barrels of oil would be needed, think about it carefully. Consider that some of the barrel would be wasted if the gasoline part was unnecessary."
This is a great question that requires a careful examination of the entire crude oil refining process, not just the final products. The answer is it would still take approximately the same number of barrels of crude oil to supply the dem
Re: (Score:2)
It's a good thing we don't let AI run the oil refineries (yet). The gasoline fractions can be cracked into lighter fuels, such as propane and butane, or reformed into heavier fuels such as diesel.
The technology to do this is already in use.
Re: (Score:2)
It sort of acknowledged and glossed over that point: "Refineries would have to invest in new, extremely expensive equipment to break down or convert this unwanted gasoline fraction into heavier products, or simply dispose of it, which is highly inefficient and costly."
I didn't want to deep dive into the whole economics thing though as then we'll be adding layers of speculation.
Re: (Score:2)
Less demand for gasoline would probably make diesel and jet fuel (kerosene, basically) cheaper, since refineries already do crack heavier chains into gasoline fractions.
Re: (Score:2)
It's a good thing we don't let AI run the oil refineries (yet). The gasoline fractions can be cracked into lighter fuels, such as propane and butane, or reformed into heavier fuels such as diesel.
The technology to do this is already in use.
You can't just enter some numbers in the refinery controls and get whichever products you want from a barrel of oil. There are very real limits and costs associated with cracking and reforming. Fluid catalytic cracking is the most common, but there are still fixed ranges for the outputs in which it operates.
https://www.ebsco.com/research... [ebsco.com]
Don't ever trust LLMS [Re:Lets see how long th...] (Score:2)
Chatbots are designed to give output that looks like it answers the question.
Re: (Score:2)
Indeed. And on top of that they are designed to flatter the person asking the question whenever possible.
Re: (Score:2)
THAT is all you have? Do you even begin to understand how utterly clueless that sounds?
Re: (Score:2)