Uber and DoorDash Try To Halt NYC Law That Encourages Tipping (nytimes.com) 208
An anonymous reader quotes a report from the New York Times: Two of the largest food-delivery app companies have made a last-ditch effort to overturn tipping laws in New York City that go into effect in January just as its next mayor, who has been highly critical of the companies and the app industry, takes office. Tips to delivery workers have plummeted since some food-delivery apps switched to showing the tipping option only after a purchase had been completed; that change came after New York City established the country's first minimum pay-rate for the workers in 2023. The new laws will require the apps to suggest a minimum tip of 10 percent at checkout, though customers can contribute more or less, or nothing at all.
Two of the app companies, DoorDash and Uber, filed a joint federal lawsuit in the Southern District of New York late last week targeting the City Council legislation, arguing that the new rules violated the First Amendment by requiring them to "speak a government-mandated message" and exceeded the Council's authority. Although tipping will be optional under the law, the companies wrote in the suit that a "mandated pre-delivery 10 percent tip suggestion" would cause customers to use the app less because they were suffering from "tipping fatigue." "Lessened engagement would result in fewer orders," the suit said.
Two of the app companies, DoorDash and Uber, filed a joint federal lawsuit in the Southern District of New York late last week targeting the City Council legislation, arguing that the new rules violated the First Amendment by requiring them to "speak a government-mandated message" and exceeded the Council's authority. Although tipping will be optional under the law, the companies wrote in the suit that a "mandated pre-delivery 10 percent tip suggestion" would cause customers to use the app less because they were suffering from "tipping fatigue." "Lessened engagement would result in fewer orders," the suit said.
Start paying people normal salaries (Score:5, Insightful)
Works well for the rest of the world. Like the metric system, and everything else that is not retarded.
Re:Start paying people normal salaries (Score:5, Insightful)
Works well for the rest of the world. Like the metric system, and everything else that is not retarded.
This. Raise prices by 30% across the board and use it to pay them. Then everyone will be happy.
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I'm 100% in favor of that. I want the true cost in my purchase. End the dark patterns of giving me a bunch of 'discounts' then asking me to tip on the 'orignal price' which is already more than the store charges, then charge me a delivery fee on top.
If I'm paying a delivery fee, why does the food cost more before the fee? What part of the fee is funding the delivery? Is this like a convenience fee? Who exactly is getting the convenience?
Re:Start paying people normal salaries (Score:5, Informative)
If I'm paying a delivery fee, why does the food cost more before the fee? What part of the fee is funding the delivery?
It is standard marketing psychology.
People will pay X for food and Y for delivery, but won't pay (X+Y) for the food with free delivery.
When people comparison shop, they will compare the food cost but ignore the delivery fee. So it is better to shove some of the cost into tack-on fees.
UberDash wants the tip to come after the customer commits to buy so the cost of the tip isn't factored into the decision.
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If I'm paying a delivery fee, why does the food cost more before the fee? What part of the fee is funding the delivery?
It is standard marketing psychology.
People will pay X for food and Y for delivery, but won't pay (X+Y) for the food with free delivery.
When people comparison shop, they will compare the food cost but ignore the delivery fee.
With the gross abuse of "fees" being added on to damn near everything in our lives, one would think consumers would be more wise to that by now.
This mentality shopping for a new car would mean an ignorant consumer is only looking at the factory sticker (X), worries about tax "later" (Y), and assumes that other stealership sticker is just a coupon for a free fruit basket.
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Haven't you figured out that the delivery companies promote tipping to avoid paying the driver, part-time/independent//whatever, full value?
And haven't you also figured out that the drivers believe they are entitled, and above reproach, for demanding a tip sufficient to satisfy their demands...?
And haven't you seen a few examples of drivers who, having not received their deserved tip, destroy or keep the delivery. Amazing to me they think this is tolerable.
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And haven't you seen a few examples of drivers who, having not received their deserved tip, destroy or keep the delivery. Amazing to me they think this is tolerable.
Turn them into employees already and start the requisite discipline. You're describing companies with no HR and no HR policy. Real Lord of the Flies bullshit right there, with tolerated results.
Perhaps restaurants need to re-hire drivers directly. Boycott the Fly Lords. With arrogance like that, I'd certainly promote the business that goes that route with my patronage. At least I know that's an employee who is more subject to answer to corporate FAFO policy. And a business who respects their employees
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So basically the company is deceiving the consumer about the price, and the people who deceive better win. So yes get rid of tips.
I have no problem for tipping for exceptional service, but if its standard it should be included in the price. Of course when I am in the US I tip because I know how the system works and its unfair to the people doing the service not to but I still think it sucks.
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Actually, lemme tell ya a secret - if I get a discount, comp, freebie at a restaurant, even a loyalty reward., I tip on the actual value of the meal(s). It's fair.
Re:Start paying people normal salaries (Score:5, Informative)
Works well for the rest of the world. Like the metric system, and everything else that is not retarded.
This. Raise prices by 30% across the board and use it to pay them. Then everyone will be happy.
That's pretty much why these scummy companies are fighting it. We all know tipping in the US is mandatory in all but law, it's culturally obligatory which bears little difference to a legal mandate. Companies like to keep it this way so they can pretend their bill is lower, thus enticing people in with prices that don't accurately reflect what it will actually cost the payer. Uber et al. want to exploit this as much as they can by presenting the pre-tip price on payment and then adding the tip option so it feels like you're paying less than you are (yes, this actually works and works quite well.. Victor Gruen is famous for making a career out of things that fool consumers but shouldn't).
Stop being a sponsor. (Score:3, Insightful)
Works well for the rest of the world. Like the metric system, and everything else that is not retarded.
This. Raise prices by 30% across the board and use it to pay them. Then everyone will be happy.
That's pretty much why these scummy companies are fighting it. We all know tipping in the US is mandatory in all but law, it's culturally obligatory..
It's not THAT obligatory. My face isn't on the evening news if I don't tip my pizza guy. No one is going to hunt you down and blacklist you from their restaurant if you don't tip. In fact, I doubt that has ever happened. After decades of cultural trainwashing.
Ironically enough, the only likely way to send the message to scummy companies and eliminate +tips positions paying less than minimum wage, is to stop tipping. Otherwise, you're literally sponsoring the problem as a pseudo-business partner every t
Re: Stop being a sponsor. (Score:2, Insightful)
The real answer is to change the laws first so that these people would be making AT LEAST minimum wages, but there's a lot of lobbying by shitty companies that make this unlikely to happen.
If you're in the U.S.A. and you're not tipping the people making less than minimum wage, then you're either unaware of what sub minimum wage is, or you're
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If you're in the U.S.A. and you're not tipping the people making less than minimum wage, then you're either unaware of what sub minimum wage is, or you're a sociopath.
I've always tipped around the 100 percent level. Sometimes at way more than that. I've done okay in life money wise, and don't mind spreading that around a little.
A side effect - although I don't do it for it, is the you are treated very well. If going into a restaurant we frequent, the staff gives a bump in the service. My table is ready, and the drinks are on the table. The waitstaff can see out to the parking lot, so when they see that gray Jeep pull in, they get ready. The wife orders sub sandwiches
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If you're in the U.S.A. and you're not tipping the people making less than minimum wage, then you're either unaware of what sub minimum wage is, or you're a sociopath.
Yes, I'm well aware of sub-minimum wage problem. You're right. Pass legislation that takes effect in a year or two, and give business time to adjust and eliminate those positions is one possible solution. Or simply use the same Cultural Guilt that perpetuated tipping into the it's-everywhere shit it is today and start reversing the trend. Reward businesses that actively discourage tipping with patronage being fully aware of your price out the door sans guilt or shame sprinkles, knowing their employees a
Re: Stop being a sponsor. (Score:2)
If you're willing to consume luxury services yourself, but not willing to contribute a reasonable amount to the people who provide those services, then you quite possibly are displaying a remorseless lack of empathy and disregard for others' feelings...meaning you're a sociopath.
The "I got mine" attitude people display these days is sociopathic.
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The real answer is to change the laws first so that these people would be making AT LEAST minimum wages, but there's a lot of lobbying by shitty companies that make this unlikely to happen.
If you're in the U.S.A. and you're not tipping the people making less than minimum wage, then you're either unaware of what sub minimum wage is, or you're a sociopath.
I agree with the first part, but how am I supposed to know if the person helping me is making sub minimum wage? There are no signs saying that. I really can't assume either way. Then again, this is why I don't do delivery services. If I want something, I might order online, but then I get in my car and go get it, even if that's a little inconvenient.
Honestly, I wished we went to no tipping at all in the US (unless you want to reward for truly exceptional service). I've traveled to Europe and got reasonable
Re:Start paying people normal salaries (Score:4, Interesting)
We all know tipping in the US is mandatory in all but law, it's culturally obligatory which bears little difference to a legal mandate.
Uh, no, it isn't. Post COVID, some companies are trying to guilt trip customers into tipping all employees in every job... I'm looking at you, fancy-pantsy coffee shops like Starbucks, Dutch Brothers, 7-Brew, etc.... but the vast majority of employees do not ask for nor receive tips as part of their jobs in America. And in jobs where I'd like to tip them for extra service.... grocery pickup, for instance... they're generally not allowed to ask for or receive tips.
Tipping is fine for waitressing, because if the service is good they can make considerably more money. But the post-COVID attempt by some companies to normalize tipping in their industries never took off in the US. Americans resented the push and saw it for what it was.
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That's pretty much why these scummy companies are fighting it. We all know tipping in the US is mandatory in all but law, it's culturally obligatory which bears little difference to a legal mandate. Companies like to keep it this way so they can pretend their bill is lower, thus enticing people in with prices that don't accurately reflect what it will actually cost the payer. Uber et al. want to exploit this as much as they can by presenting the pre-tip price on payment and then adding the tip option so it feels like you're paying less than you are (yes, this actually works and works quite well.. Victor Gruen is famous for making a career out of things that fool consumers but shouldn't).
What is "culturally obligatory"? Are you THAT subject to peer pressure? If you don't, or do, want to do, or say, something f*&k other people's opinions. Learn to stand up and be an individual for shit's sake.
Re: Start paying people normal salaries (Score:2)
If society is built around tipping, and youbknow that, then you're "an individual" that punches down if you don't. You're literally the baddie. That is unless.yoh limit yourself to exclusively purchase from.establishments that you know for a fact pay a living wage. Do you?
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And you have to go 30%.
The employer may, if they are ethical, forward the 20% portion to the employee. 20% was the tipping standard before tipping culture in America became fascist.
Then the employer will keep the 10% portion, if for no other reason, out of spite.
I've been seeing the 30% standard being injected into otherwise reasonable messaging. Nope. I do not tip for ordering and receiving while standing. if clerking demands a tip, am I tipping my clerk at the Skechers* store? No I am not.
* - This is a bl
Re: Start paying people normal salaries (Score:2)
Since the Fed has printed well over 500% more base money since 2008 and inflation has been 50% why not print 300% more for income support to get the same 30% inflation you want, while individuals gain ten times more real purchasing power?
What is wrong with printing faster than prices rise?
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Well don't raise prices and end tipping. If only rich people are tipping then why are we doing it at all?
I'm told tipping is not optional and the person serving me food needs it to live. So if that is the case why are poor people eating out and taking food out of the servers mouth if they can't tip?
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I'm told tipping is not optional
Tipping is optional. According to Google, 25% of DoorDash customers do not tip.
and the person serving me food needs it to live.
There are starving children in Africa. If you're doing nothing for them, you probably shouldn't feel too guilty about the DoorDash deliverer.
So if that is the case why are poor people eating out and taking food out of the servers mouth if they can't tip?
Not using DoorDash at all is taking away even more money.
Disclaimer: I don't eat restaurant food, so I've never used DoorDash. I use InstaCart for groceries, and tip the default amount.
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I'm told tipping is not optional
Tipping is optional. According to Google, 25% of DoorDash customers do not tip.
I won't use DoorDash, but not tipping is an abomination. As I noted in another post, I tip around 100 percent, sometimes higher.
and the person serving me food needs it to live.
There are starving children in Africa. If you're doing nothing for them, you probably shouldn't feel too guilty about the DoorDash deliverer.
I understand and more or less agree. We can pretty much only do what we can. Saving the world is a Quixotic fever dream.
So if that is the case why are poor people eating out and taking food out of the servers mouth if they can't tip?
Not using DoorDash at all is taking away even more money.
Disclaimer: I don't eat restaurant food, so I've never used DoorDash. I use InstaCart for groceries, and tip the default amount.
I have too many social situations where I eat out fairly often. Would rather be eating the better food we have at home. The default tip amount is too little, IMO. And some of the suggested tips are stupid low. At our recent Christmas party, I got the bill and it h
Calling them out. (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm told tipping is not optional and the person serving me food needs it to live.
If a business were to literally tell me that, I would politely ask them why the fuck they're bragging about being a slave owner running a restaurant-turned-plantation, while trying to make me feel guilty about that.
If you can't afford to pay your people a reasonable wage and run the business, then shut it down. Tips are MY choice. They're not your fucking payroll subsidy for you to guilt consumers into paying.
Hell, start a movement. I'd be proud to go to a restaurant that openly brags about paying their people a reasonable wage, and actively discourages tipping. Even if that did mean higher prices. I'd have a hell of a lot more respect for the owner.
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If a business were to literally tell me that, I would politely ask them why the fuck they're bragging about being a slave owner running a restaurant-turned-plantation, while trying to make me feel guilty about that.
Exactly. I was at a big-box store yesterday - okay, Walmart, don't judge me - and they were playing an advertisement broadcast over the store-wide speaker system that was celebrating "Walmart's contributions to the needy in the community by supporting donations of food, clothing, and toys..." I literally laughed out loud. Many of the recipients of such donations are Walmart's EMPLOYEES who receive poverty-level wages and hours just low enough to keep them from qualifying for benefits. If Walmart really care
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Somehow I think Doordash can afford to pay their employees a bit more. https://ir.doordash.com/news/n... [doordash.com]
Revenue is up 27%.
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Today in "where is the lie?"
Why did you mention revenue and not profit? Could it be because profit is so low, it demonstrates that business is borderline unprofitable in current state?
Quoting from your own source:
"GAAP gross profit as a percentage of Marketplace GOV was 6.8% in Q3 2025, up from 6.4% in Q3 2024 and 6.6% in Q2 2025."
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So they made a piddly $1.8 billion profit.
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Gotta say, it's rare to find person who doesn't understand basic math like "what is percentage and why it matters more than absolute numbers when discussing percentages on the other end of the formula" on an IT focused forum.
You're a rare breed.
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Revenue is up 27%.
Revenue means little.
You need to look at net income (profit).
But DoorDash is not a charity and has no reason to pay drivers more than what is needed to recruit and retain them.
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Revenue is up 27%.
Revenue means little.
You need to look at net income (profit).
But DoorDash is not a charity and has no reason to pay drivers more than what is needed to recruit and retain them.
It's pretty easy to see were 27% might be going. Let's take a good hard look at executive compensation first.
You're right. They're not a charity. But they can certainly be shamed into being known as a company full of greedy fucks who assume "driver" is an excuse for paying flat wages while executive bonuses get fatter and fatter.
If we're already debating on the morality of billionaires, imagine when the CEO to employee payroll diff is an order of magnitude larger, and we're debating the fucked nature of
Re:Start paying people normal salaries (Score:5, Informative)
Noone is advocating raising prices. They're just advocating for quoting the actual price up front. You would end up paying the exact same amount, it's just declared up front instead of misleading you with artificially lower prices and expecting you to make up the difference with a tip.
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exactly I'd up vote you, but....no points.
Re: Start paying people normal salaries (Score:2)
"As a member of the freemarket faithful I think people should see the real costs of everything"
Are you going to use the threat of state violence to force other "freemarket faithful"s to stop hiding the full price?
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Personally, I'm against tipping on principle. But when it's priced into the system, you go with how the system works.
And one of the critical aspects of tipping system is that it's voluntary. If it's not, then it's definitionally not a gratuity. And presenting gratuity as "sorta kinda" mandatory in the bill is entirely against the spirit of the system.
And "let them eat cake" rich types don't seem to realize that most people are price conscious. Jacking the price by 30% is likely going to nuke at least the 25
Re: Start paying people normal salaries (Score:2)
The govt doesn't pay its bills quarterly, or only at tax time. It needs money coming in every day to pay its bills every day.
Plus, it collects its money when you have it to guard against you not having it on "collection day".
It's reasonable and rational.
Re: Start paying people normal salaries (Score:2)
Why not sell new Treasuries faster than old ones are redeemed? Why not sell them to the Fed, which returns the interest anyway?
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In other words, no-one looses, delivery people will finally get the pay they earn.
Now another thing is Trump wants to free tips from tax, that won't happen with the raised salaries.
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The US: if we have to pay people enough that they can afford to live and have health care then the industry will die!
The rest of the world: ???
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Except Uber, Doordash, Instacart, etc don't think of gig workers as people. Definitely not employees. They're parts of a system that is continuously being optimized for increased revenue. While they're trying to optimize the shopper/driver experience to make sure they make as little money as possible without quitting, they're doing R&D on projects to replace the people in the system altogether.
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Define "normal salary".
the basic amount you need to make a living from a job without depending on extra "charity"?
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Define "normal salary".
the basic amount you need to make a living from a job without depending on extra "charity"?
OK, let's be more specific.
Define "normal", since idiots making $200K a year can still find ways to be fucking broke.
Especially in the United States of Capitalism where brainwashing citizens into buying pointless shit incessantly has turned into some kind of duty to the country.
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Define "normal salary".
the basic amount you need to make a living from a job without depending on extra "charity"?
What. amount of Money is that? I'm not trying to be obtuse or give you a hard time. It is just so difficult to pin a number on that.
I had an extreme example. In 1979, I was making 13K a year as an electronic tech. Nothing flashy, but a person could do okay. An engineer co-worker was making six figures and was always whining about how he needed more money. 6 figures at the low end in 1979 dollars was about 500,000 dollars today.
Me being the blunt ass I am, asked him how I could get by with 13K, even
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well, "normal" is not a precise term to begin with. countries define minimum wages, you can compute average wages, and average cost of living (which can vary greatly across locations or regions), and "making a living" depends on an additional host of personal circumstances not even counting luxuries: do you already own a house, pay rent, have kids, long commutes, etc. on the other end ... what's your job? what value does it produce? so, no, i have no idea how to quantify that in a general and meaningful way
Re: Start paying people normal salaries (Score:2)
what i was getting at is that if you work a fulltime job, don't indulge in luxuries, and you still depend on voluntary tips "to live" then that's not a "normal salary".
It's not uncommon for waitstaff to be among the highest paid workers in a restaurant "depending on voluntary tips" isn't the purgatory you imagine for all wait staff...
Re: Start paying people normal salaries (Score:2)
Right.
And none them would be happy with a system that guaranteed them say, $25/hr, if any money (with tips) over that was distributed until everyone there was making $25/hr.
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Start with $25 Minimum Wage [profgalloway.com] and then see where things go from there.
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Start with $25 Minimum Wage [profgalloway.com] and then see where things go from there.
50 K per year.
Okay, so now about the people who are above that. Do they get a bump in pay? Or do they just get ever closer to minimum?
As I noted, I'm not trying to be my usual asshole self here. It's just not all that simple. Different people have different numbers of acceptability, and there are ripple effects. Other discussions need to happen, as at one time, much of the minimum wage work was for high school students, and often for wives to pick up some extra money. Like how my mother did waitress w
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Did you read the article? Galloway makes a pretty compelling argument, even I was on the fence about that high a number but I've started to become convinced particualrly when for my entire life we couldn't raise it because of prices and labor markets and doom and doom and yet all those things have happened with a $7.25 minimum wage
Do they get a bump in pay?
Probably yes, if suddenly you are making minimum wage, even at $25 the floor rises so other wages will rise with them particularly in that 50-150k middle class rage. It will be
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Start with $25 Minimum Wage [profgalloway.com] and then see where things go from there.
After the legislation passes and digital price tags update overnight before even a cent has been earned or paid yet to the new $25/hour worker, we'll see where things "go" with a $10 gallon of milk, $20 eggs, and $30 for a McBurger.
As if Greed isn't sitting in a 3000HP hypercar that can outrun damn near anything.
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I would be a little more open to that argument if prices haven't already been rising rapidly with the $7.25 minimum wage.
Also many states have had higher MW and they have no seen the drastic rise in prices that were predicted. And of course there is the always present example of the cost of a Big Mc in nations with a high HW and the relative cost isn't much more than ours.
I've become convinced this threat of massive price spikes is just that, a threat.
Re: Start paying people normal salaries (Score:2)
I just saw an article where an employer said he'd no longer hire entry-level workers, they're just too expensive.
That's the issue in a nutshell.
Employers pay workers what they are worth, not what workers 'need', ideally. The incompetent (entry-level) worker has the same needs (rent, food, car, etc) as the expert worker, so should they both make the same wage? Of course not.
If it becomes illegal to pay a worker less than $18/hr, then jobs that aren't worth $18/hr will go away, and where will high school grad
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If it becomes illegal to pay a worker less than $18/hr, then jobs that aren't worth $18/hr will go away
If a business can only stay in business with their current practices if they pay their workers $0.50 an hour does that business deserve to stay in business?
Requiring a fast-food restaurant to pay a clerk $25/hr to stand at the counter to punch orders into a POS terminal will have the effect of eliminating that job, to be replaced by a kiosk
MW is $7.25/hr and this is already happening. And if it does then those companies get the taxes consumate to what it takes to maintain civilized society.
Corporations exist to the benefit of society, not to the benefit of themselves and themselves alone.
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Fast food prices are already largely at the unreasonable level.
If that happened under a $7.25 MW I think that cuts against the idea that raising so much will force that. Galloway also addresses this in the article if you've read it:
UC Berkeley economist Michael Reich and University of Victoria economist Justin Wiltshire recently wrote, “Outside the theoretical world, economists have conducted hundreds of studies on the actual effects of minimum wage. They repeatedly find that increasing the minimum wage raises the pay of low-wage workers, without leading to even
Re:Start paying people normal salaries (Score:5, Informative)
Walmart and McDonald's pay shit and then encourage employees to sign up for public assistance.
That means corporations are subsidizing their low wages with YOUR tax dollars.
My boss is always complaining they can't get reliable entry level techs. Well you pay gas station wages you get gas station quality work.
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Walmart and McDonald's pay shit and then encourage employees to sign up for public assistance.
That means corporations are subsidizing their low wages with YOUR tax dollars.
My boss is always complaining they can't get reliable entry level techs. Well you pay gas station wages you get gas station quality work.
Your answer has zero to do with my question. It's an emotional response. If you are going to play, answer the question. How much should minimum wage be, then give us how it is going to be worked out. This is not obtuseness, it is a simple request.
Because there is more than just the endless recycling of one or another version of Employers are evil, and working people are screwed. Maybe working people should start their own companies, and pay whatever is considered proper.
Complaints without offered sol
Re:Start paying people normal salaries (Score:4, Informative)
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/1... [cnbc.com]
Walmart was the top employer of Medicaid enrollees in three states and one of the top four employers in the remaining three states. The retailer was the top employer of SNAP recipients in five states and one of the top four employers in the remaining four states.
McDonald’s was among the top five employers of Medicaid enrollees in five of six states and SNAP recipients in eight of nine states.
Re: Start paying people normal salaries (Score:2)
Cherry-picked facts are always fun, I wonder how many of those workers were senior citizens supplementing their inadequate retirement savings with federal assistance?
If Walmart, McDonalds, etc all paid wages and offered each worker adequate hours such that they no longer qualified for SNAP, free school lunches, subsidized internet/cell service, Medicaid, etc then they would never be able to find sufficient workers.
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Cherry-picked facts are always fun
What was cherry-picked? Be specific.
If Walmart, McDonalds, etc all paid wages and offered each worker adequate hours such that they no longer qualified for SNAP, free school lunches, subsidized internet/cell service, Medicaid, etc then they would never be able to find sufficient workers.
Citation required.
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Cherry-picked facts are always fun, I wonder how many of those workers were senior citizens supplementing their inadequate retirement savings with federal assistance?
If Walmart, McDonalds, etc all paid wages and offered each worker adequate hours such that they no longer qualified for SNAP, free school lunches, subsidized internet/cell service, Medicaid, etc then they would never be able to find sufficient workers.
Archie is one of our resident Marxists.
Now there is no question that there is an unbalanced situation here. But there is a problem, and that is supply and demand. There is also the matter of drive. There is also the matter of skillset. And that is even before we get to the matter of what should the minimum wage be?
The crazy thing is the people who whine the most can't even begin to elucidate how this should happen. It's much more complex than "just pay people 25 dollars an hour." Let me try again here
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Even people making $100k can qualify for SNAP if they have enough dependents.
Citation required.
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Citation required.
SNAP eligibility [usda.gov]
Poverty guidelines [hhs.gov]
SNAP is available to those with household income below 130% of the poverty line.
The poverty line is $32,150 for a family of four, with an additional $5,500 for each additional dependent. There is no limit on the number of dependents.
A worker earning $100k with twelve dependents would qualify for SNAP.
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Citation required.
SNAP eligibility [usda.gov]
Poverty guidelines [hhs.gov]
SNAP is available to those with household income below 130% of the poverty line.
The poverty line is $32,150 for a family of four, with an additional $5,500 for each additional dependent. There is no limit on the number of dependents.
A worker earning $100k with twelve dependents would qualify for SNAP.
Or as we can say to q_e_t ... Ohhh Snap!
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Even people making $100k can qualify for SNAP if they have enough dependents.
Citation required.
Don't know how to Google? Citation required.
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Not a special legal category that is less than, usually a lot less than, the "minimum" legally allowed.
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The Soviets used metric.
Do you mean the Johnny-come-lately Americans? I guess they were operating on Imperial time. They did bring a bunch of very useful 105 and 155 mm Howitzers though.
You can't force where a company displays (Score:3)
You CAN force a company to pay an employee a minimum amount, so maybe they should concentrate on that instead.
btw I laughed at the “mandated pre-delivery 10 percent tip suggestion” would cause customers to use the app less because they were suffering from “tipping fatigue.” that the companies state in the suit. They make money from the extremely lazy. The extremely lazy also tend to be extremely cheap. Encouraging them to continue being both means they'll keep using the product.
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This is about tipping, not about normal payment information. The idea of having proper wages for drivers, can you really be against that? On the flip side, it's weird that tips aren't being given because people aren't being asked to give the tip until after service has been given, so I'm not sure why tips have dropped off.
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This is about tipping, not about normal payment information.
It's about where during the transaction they give the option for gratuity. Currently, you pay for the food, then the option for gratuity is presented. The law is trying to force companies to present that option at the same time as paying for the food.
It's about placement, not tipping. The option for gratuity hasn't been eliminated, it's just been placed after the payment for the service itself. As and far as I know, one can mandate by law exactly when someone requests a gratuity.
Some regard a 'tip' as 't
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I order food delivery on a one-time-per-week basis. Usually when I do it, I order and then totally dismiss the app, just waiting the food to arrive. I don't open the app again until next order. So, in my case, any asking for tips after the service would just be completely ignored.
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Usually when I do it, I order and then totally dismiss the app, just waiting the food to arrive. I don't open the app again until next order. So, in my case, any asking for tips after the service would just be completely ignored.
Which is what 99% of their customers do, which is why they placed the gratuity option after payment for goods services to begin with, hence:
They make money from the extremely lazy. The extremely lazy also tend to be extremely cheap. Encouraging them to continue being both means they'll keep using the product
That said, seeing that it's not eliminating gratuity or engaging in consumer fraud, it's going to be real hard to make a law forcing them to design their app in a specific manner stick. And NYC would be better off trying to pass a law that ensures delivery people are simply paid more, forces a gratuity, or makes the company make up for gratuity not received due to their
This is wrong (Score:4, Interesting)
I want gig workers to receive a living wage whether I am doing business with them or not, but this is the wrong way to try to accomplish that.
The right way is to change the employment laws such that they have to be paid decently, and to raise the minimum wage if necessary, etc.
Trying to solve the problem with tips is completely wrong. They're supposed to be an expression of appreciation above and beyond what you need to survive, not the basis of survival. Trying to trick the customer into paying that indirectly is some bootlicking bullshit which also disguises the true cost of survival.
Re:This is wrong (Score:5, Interesting)
Trying to solve the problem with tips is completely wrong.
No. Tipping is the problem, and the problem has gotten entirely out of hand. Make tipping illegal, and employers will be forced to pay wages that will retain their employees, and then, in turn, raise prices to compensate. At which point, we will have the system that Europe has been using for longer than I know, where being a waiter is not a stop-gap employment option while you're trying to do something else, but a respectable profession. There are establishments I frequent in various parts of the Continent where I see the same waiters working there, year after year, and there is never any problem with the service. Tipping is not expected, and if you do, it's a couple of percent. The prices on the menu are the prices you pay. No extra taxes, no extra tipping. Completely transparent.
It is pure commercial greed that prevents the US from adopting the same rational standard, and instead we get the fraud where the price you see is nowhere near the price you pay, except in very specific, isolated cases like fuel and airline tickets.
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I'm not saying any of the above is necessarily bad. It's the cultural expectation and no surprise to anyone that lives there. But just b
Re: This is wrong (Score:2)
The right way is to change the employment laws such that they have to be paid decently, and to raise the minimum wage if necessary, etc.
And raise the delivery fee to cover the higher wages you want drivers paid - if you want the driver to make $18/hr, then add in car costs, then add overhead/profit for the delivery service, and divide that by the estimated number of deliveries a driver can make in an hour - you could be looking at $10-12/delivery, with added fees if you are far from your restaurant...
The wages paid to the driver are YOUR responsibility, their pay is a function of the fees you pay.
Re:This is wrong (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes but have you considered that without this system poor people won't be able to get mcdonalds delivered to their door?
So it's a plan with no drawbacks?
I do recognize that this is an issue for the disabled, but it's unsustainable for them as well, and I reject temporary solutions that aren't backed up by permanent ones. If the plan is only to kick the can and wish for a miracle, it's a bad plan.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
The days of people complimenting are gone. (Score:5, Informative)
If it's on the receipt it is NOT a tip.
pre-tip (Score:5, Insightful)
Tipping ahead of time invites vindictive actions by the tipees, or scammy actions by tippers. The idea of a tip used to be to reward good service. Tipping ahead of time is more like extortion to avoid bad service.
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Besides, it's always been a bullshit concept. When your food takes a long time to come out because someone in the kitchen screws up, the waitress ends up with a lower tip. Wait staff tips have alwa
Pre-delivery tip is not a tip... (Score:5, Insightful)
If you are asking me to tip someone before I even know the level of service, then what you are asking for is not a tip. What you are asking is for me to pay this person's wages so you don't have to.
Besides that, tipping for Doordash and uber eats drivers is also not really tipping. If I were actually in the car with the driver, then I would be experiencing service and could tip accordingly. But for Doordash, the order simply shows up on my doorstep and I have no interaction with the driver. The only thing I know is whether the order was delivered in a timely manner, but I also know that the timeliness of the order is often not in the driver's control.
I wish we could go back to the system in most of Europe, where the workers are fairly paid and a tip is supposed to be just a little extra for excellence (and not considered mandatory). Demanding the customer supply the vast majority of the worker's wages is not fair to the customer (who is being asked to defray the "employer's" cost out of guilt) or to the worker who cannot rely on a steady stream of income and whose wages can be unfairly withheld by bad customers.
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If you are asking me to tip someone before I even know the level of service, then what you are asking for is not a tip. What you are asking is for me to pay this person's wages so you don't have to.
Exactly this. Tipping is supposed to reward very good service and those who go above and beyond at times. As you've described it's a payroll subsidy being pushed on consumers with cultural guilt.
Besides that, tipping for Doordash and uber eats drivers is also not really tipping. If I were actually in the car with the driver, then I would be experiencing service and could tip accordingly.
Uh, now that's not exactly fair, now is it? If you were actually in the car with the driver, you wouldn't be experiencing the service you actually paid for; sitting your ass on the couch while someone else plays food fetch.
Tips on top of delivery fees, should probably be illegal. That's how we end up with deli
The final solution? (Score:4, Interesting)
I wonder if the only way to solve the US tipping problem would be to all (or ate least a huge amount) of customers to stop tipping completely. Maybe laws banning tips need to be passed.
Without tips, I guess people would have to look for other jobs and hence restaurants and delivery services would have to raise wages to compensate for it.
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I wonder if the only way to solve the US tipping problem would be to all (or ate least a huge amount) of customers to stop tipping completely. Maybe laws banning tips need to be passed.
Before a law like that could be passed, you'd have to evaluate the impact of all jobs that are currently paying sub-minimum wage, because "tips". Unfortunately there might still be a LOT of those. But you could still pass legislation that takes effect in a year or two. Give businesses time to raise those positions.
Cultural Guilt turned tipping into the it's-everywhere shit it is today. Cultural Guilt can reverse that by shaming or boycotting businesses that demand or insist on tipping, while rewarding t
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A 10% tip might be soon seen as a gift from the Almighty himself.
That could cause some blow back from the workers. There is a growing sentiment that remuneration is owed regardless of labor performed or conditions met.
That exact arrogant attitude is why companies are looking to shift the leverage back in their favor by any means necessary. Including a slow-burning Recession.
People got waaay to cocky when COVID not only paid them more to sit on their ass, but also created resource shortages for employers, who were forced to raise salaries. Employers can't have that shit long-term. Fire your employees to replace them with AI vaporware you never bought and didn't work out in 3 months? No problem! They'll come back to w
Electronic Payments Changed Tipping (Score:2)
I think there are several factors at play here. Possibly the most important factor is transacting without cash, i.e. electronic payments.
I'm not here to argue the reason to tip or not to tip.
Because so many of us no longer, reliably carry cash; systems have defaulted to allow you to tip for services yet to be delivered. In theory, if you tip ahead of service delivered, you are sending a signal to the service provider that you expect something above the base line. Broadly speaking, this is no longer true
Few dumb things in this whole matter (Score:2, Interesting)
2. In the case of an Uber ride, sure driver can be tipped for a superb ride. But let's stop the bullshit and talk about this. What the is the difference between a superb ride and a normal ride? NOTHING. Every d
They need to be forced to stop calling these tips (Score:2)
Competing apps in other markets, the true insult (Score:2)
They have a cohesive app that works great and margins (for the platform provider) are far lower, but they still remain profitable. They're just not paying for a bunch of unnecessary overhead like software developers, product managers, and redundant data scie
The tip should be deserved, not entitled (Score:2)
Firstly, the money will nearly never go to the staff. It will go to the business to offset their wages. Secondly, why should I be forced to pay more for my meal every time? Some experiences, good service deserves a tip and I can be quite generous then, but those kind of experiences are few and far between and most everyday experiences don't deserve a separate tip. Exceptional service? Sure. But not the baseline service.
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In every app I use you can tip in advance and then adjust the tip after the fact. I do that a lot when a driver delivers food to the wrong house and then asks me to go get it.
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I only tip for good service, while tipping extra for above the bare minimum, and not tipping for bad service.
that was the purpose of tipping where i'm from, and it was very common a few decades ago but has been steadily in decline. now it's not rare but not frequent either. i do tip occasionally, as appreciation or courtesy, but i always feel awkward about it. i know some extra cash is always nice, but i personally find it odd that a stranger gives you some small change for doing something you're expected to be doing anyway. it might be a little bit insulting? in some cultures it definitely is. on the other extrem
Re: Redefined 'tips' (Score:2)
My grandfather (a wealthy man that owned a large chain of successful regional restaurants) had the habit of tipping before being served, so the server knew to give good service. He was a good tipper and servers loved to see him come to their restaurant/bar.
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pest, you forgot your meds again ...
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People don't tip if it's after the purchase/delivery?
I just lost some of the shred of faith I had left in humanity.
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Wanna take a guess what happens when I'm forced to determine the tip before the transaction is complete and I have my food in hand? It will be zero.
Yep. Was forced to "pre-tip" when ordering a pizza last winter because the restaurant wouldn't allow pay-at-the-door. They subcontracted my delivery out to door dash without my knowledge or consent. The bastards dropped it on my front porch in 20 degree weather without ringing the doorbell. No email from the restaurant. No text. I don't have a door dash account, so no notification of any kind. It sat out there for 15 minutes before I noticed because it was overdue. It was ice cold. That was the las