Nvidia CEO Says He's 'Empathetic' To DLSS 5 Concerns 107
Nvidia CEO Jensen Huang says he understands the concerns about "AI slop" with DLSS 5 but insists the feature preserves a game's underlying geometry and artistic intent. "I think their perspective makes sense, " said Huang during a recent appearance on the Lex Fridman podcast. "And I could see where they're coming from because I don't love AI slop myself. You know, all of the AI-generated content increasingly looks similar, and they're all beautiful... so I'm empathic toward what they're thinking. That's just not what DLSS 5 is trying to do." Tom's Hardware reports: Although Huang is striking a more conciliatory tone, much of his response is similar to what we heard at GTC [where Huang said gamers were "completely wrong."] The artist determines the geometry, we are completely truthful to the geometry... so every single frame, it enhances, but it doesn't change anything." There was some confusion about how DLSS 5 worked when it was first announced, and although the inner workings of it still aren't clear on a technical level, Huang has said that it isn't a general-purpose generative AI model. He describes it as "content-controlled generative AI." On the other end of the spectrum, Huang also said that it isn't a post-processing filter. The technical details of DLSS 5 live somewhere between that space, and we likely won't know them until later this year when the feature is set to release.
"The question about enhancing, DLSS 5... in the future, you could even prompt it. You know, I want it to be a toon shader. I want it to look like this, kind of. You could even give it an example and it would generate in the style of that, all consistent with the artistry, the style, the intent of the artist," Huang continued. "All of that is done for the artist so they can create something that is more beautiful but still in the style that they want." Although the talking points about DLSS 5 remain unchanged, it seems that Huang has at least heard the criticism. "I think that they got the impression that the games are going to come out the way the games are... and then we're going to post-process it. That's not what DLSS is intended to do."
Huang also made assertions that DLSS is "integrated" with the artist, and suggested that it would put the power of generative AI in the hands of artists working in game development [...]. Although DLSS 5 looks like it's doing a lot, Huang said that it's just another tool, not an essential feature. "The gamers might also appreciate that, in the last couple of years, we introduced skin shaders to game developers, and many of those games have skin shaders that include sub-surface scattering that makes skin look more skin-like... [DLSS 5] is just one more tool. They can decide what to use," Huang ended the conversation about DLSS 5. Immediately after, without missing a beat, he said 1993's Doom was the most influential video game ever made.
"The question about enhancing, DLSS 5... in the future, you could even prompt it. You know, I want it to be a toon shader. I want it to look like this, kind of. You could even give it an example and it would generate in the style of that, all consistent with the artistry, the style, the intent of the artist," Huang continued. "All of that is done for the artist so they can create something that is more beautiful but still in the style that they want." Although the talking points about DLSS 5 remain unchanged, it seems that Huang has at least heard the criticism. "I think that they got the impression that the games are going to come out the way the games are... and then we're going to post-process it. That's not what DLSS is intended to do."
Huang also made assertions that DLSS is "integrated" with the artist, and suggested that it would put the power of generative AI in the hands of artists working in game development [...]. Although DLSS 5 looks like it's doing a lot, Huang said that it's just another tool, not an essential feature. "The gamers might also appreciate that, in the last couple of years, we introduced skin shaders to game developers, and many of those games have skin shaders that include sub-surface scattering that makes skin look more skin-like... [DLSS 5] is just one more tool. They can decide what to use," Huang ended the conversation about DLSS 5. Immediately after, without missing a beat, he said 1993's Doom was the most influential video game ever made.
ReShade (Score:1)
https://reshade.me/ [reshade.me]
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The current fear rangers from reasonable things, like fear that it will be used to cover sloppy work same way that temporal anti-aliasing solutions are used today, to patently unreasonable things such as "AI bad" screechers.
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Yes, it will be used to cover up mistakes (or rather, eliminate them), but so what? What isn't? What dev tool isn't there for the purpose of making a difficult, time-consuming, and error prone task easier, faster, and less error-ridden?
You aren't fighting against AI here, you're fighting human nature.
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I'm fighting nothing. I'm answering the question.
People who cannot wrap their heads around basic empathy, such as "what do other people think about this" and instead always project "you said this, therefore you must be thinking this" are so odd.
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I don't think I inferred anything that was not implied in your argument. Are you taking issue with my use of the w
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I will once again reiterate my previous answer, as you doubled down on "you must be thinking this if you understand this".
The answer to your last question is "I have empathy". Top 5 percentile of population in it, measured back during my university days. I am very good at reading people's emotional state and intent and expressing it in a way that they would agree with if I want to.
Since nerds tend to suffer from the opposite, exceedingly low empathy "I don't understand how these people could act like this",
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I know how it feels to be the angry complaining gamer. I can look at other people's words and feel it through them. Which doesn't change the fact that the premise for their emotions is a false one. Or, a silly one, like "it'll just be used to cover up sloppy work", as if one is an expert game developer and not an armchair quarterback.
I reject the sloppy work argument
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Issue here is far more than any single detail such as "lighting engine". Various forms of temporal anti aliasing for example has nothing to do with it, and yet if you turn it off in quite a few modern games, you will notice a lot of really nasty shortcuts that were taken, because developers expected everything being smoothed over with temporal anti aliasing hiding the problems.
So your choice today is ghosting artifacts and everything smoothed over, or image with flickering, weird edges of things and so on.
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Same argument can be made for a lot of recent technologies, and in the end, AMD just follows nvidia.
Think DLSS > FSR.
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As long as it requires not one, but two unobtainable 5090 cards, I think you'll find approximately 100% of gamers will be left with a game that looks like crap.
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As long as you can turn it off, who cares?
I'm sure at least some of the hate directed towards DLSS 5 is just sour grapes, because it will probably be a great long while before the technology trickles down to GPUs that don't require the sale of a kidney to afford.
Re: ReShade (Score:1)
I thought no this is the correct response.
The people that whippee up something quick for a tech demo failed, but in the long run artists will be able to properly use it to make things look better.
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But what this demo showed was not that, it was taking "AI renderings" abusing artists art, and reshaping it to what someone else thinks is what "looks good". The overlay is not something that a game developer has control over. So, it is a concern, and it isnt that the demo failed, its that it showed bad tech usage. It showed bad technique and overlays crap as a result. It also does not fix current i
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Say someone wants to demonstrate how the rotor motor from an Apache attack helicopter can be mounted on a motorcycle frame. Woul
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Disagree. I don't think many of the folks criticising this even heard about the hardware requirements until later. If that were the issue here we wouldn't see people rolling their eyes at the slop, they'd be lamenting their access to it. They're absolutely not doing that.
If anything, the sentiment I saw was that this was going to be inevitably included in next gen consoles in a way that would influence the industry as a whole... but also that it reduced the authenticity of the game and... I think people und
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It was a drop-in tech demo meant to demonstrate the lighting, not the visual styles of the art directors. That will be up to the art directors who implement it. For example, Bethesda says they are going to add it to Starfield after tweaking it to match their art direction. "This is a very early look, and our art teams will be further adjusting the lighting and final effect to look the way we th
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Are you suggesting that all computer generated images are interchangeable?
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I'm sure at least some of the hate directed towards DLSS 5 is just sour grapes, because it will probably be a great long while before the technology trickles down to GPUs that don't require the sale of a kidney to afford.
In the past 8 years there's literally been zero fixes for the core problems of DLSS, the artefacts and temporal instability that it causes. Why do you think there's going to be a magic fix now that the system literally re-renders the entire scene?
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As long as you can turn it off, who cares?
Everyone should care. The past 10 years have shown us that developers will take any shortcut they can. There's a reason visual graphics are getting *worse*, and that's because developers just don't care anymore. Who needs carefully designed lighting when you can just rely on raytracing. Fuck the people who don't want to use ray tracing, they can put up with bland graphics that look worse than what we had in 2010.
Who needs optimisation anyway? Everyone can just turn on frame generation to magic in missing fr
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this is the sound of the triple A side of the industry eating its own lies about itself and choking
(you're not wrong, but I daresay most actual developers don't wanna live that life)
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These kinds of comments always read like time and money is somehow no object.
If they take such shortcuts then that just means your game is cheaper or it has more content elsewhere. They're not just going to sit around doing nothing while still getting paid with whatever time they saved of course.
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These kinds of comments always read like time and money is somehow no object.
I would agree with you if we didn't produce better looking games in the past, and if major studios weren't making FUCK YOU levels of money while producing sub tier quality games. We have very clearly gone downhill.
There's no justifiable defense here. No we aren't living in a world where we're getting highly amazing levels of extra content as a result of these "shortcuts". None of what you say seems to be playing out in reality. Bonus points I didn't even address procedural generation which is used in a lot
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Graphics quality of games has been going up and up if only because more advanced hardware that can run it keeps popping up. It's silly to say games used to look better.
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No, as far as AAA is concerned it just means you can hire fewer and/or cheaper artists. Possibly redistributing the savings into hiring more middle managers. It certainly does not mean the game is cheaper - AAA games have not gone down in price in a long time.
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Now, think about the small studios that do innovative things and can do more and better with less time and cost.
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That's just not how the market and competition works. If they can spend less money on it then the price of the games will go down for the simple reason that another company will start underbidding them for a similar game to get more customers and then they have no choice but to follow suit.
The price of AAA games has been relatively consistent for a long time when accounted for inflation, but obviously each generation comes with more sophisticated graphics technology and if they couldn't use new technology t
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Should developers be spending their limited time trying to shave a few cycles off a calculation that will be performed at 4ghz across 12 cores, or fixing the inventory system? Should they be trying to reduce
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That makes no sense. First off, you're missing something like six or seven decades of developers taking "any shortcut they can". Probably more.
No I'm not. I'm actively pointing out that this is the fundamental problem. Developers will take every shortcut they can and giving them DLSS will result in every game looking like trash without it, and same shaded artefacted trash with it.
Enjoy your new world of crap visuals.
Isn't the whole point of computing getting a machine to make your work faster and easier?
It's even faster and easier to not release a game at all. Is that the end goal of your race to the bottom? No the goal of computing is making work *more efficient*. That implies you get the same quality output at the end which every in
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That you're making blanket assumptions based on a brief tech demo where it was added into existing title
You won't be able to turn it off (Score:2)
That's why you're starting to see Ray traced lighting everywhere. It requires fewer man hours to program because you can let the GPU do a bunch of the work as long as you're willing to let it tank frame rates.
Which would be fine if games were designed for 30fps gaming like they were on the Xb
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Empathy??? (Score:1)
How delusional do you have to be to essentially belittle your customers like this.
Your GPUs should not be making artistic decisions, they should just render sht the actually creative people made and designed. Nobody needs this LLM-slop, that is bringing the worst qualities of analog reproduction into the digital age: altering the original content with some super special sauce seasoning.
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Bullshit. When optimization algorithms compress the hell out of geometry, textures, etc, the aim is to ... PRESERVE ... the original content and details, as closely as possible. If you think that artistic decisions are ignored, you're deluded and you have no idea how any of this works. Programmers make tools so that artists can express themselves most effectively and efficiently.
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It's not like this is going to appear in a game without the developers of said game putting it there, so how in the 9 fucking hells could it possible not be true to their intent?
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I was talking about the games industry. You know, the place that would use DLSS for their product. Well let's see if it gets adopted I suppose. And by whom.
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I was talking about the games industry.
You don't think stable diffusion is used in games? That's silly- it's all over in them.
You know, the place that would use DLSS for their product. Well let's see if it gets adopted I suppose. And by whom.
Precisely. Either it will- or it won't.
It'll be a hit, or it will bomb. But either way, what it will not be, is contrary to the intent of those that put it in their game.
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Stable Diffusion is only 3.5 years old. Maybe you are an LLM?
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Diffusion-generated art is all over gaming.
Or perhaps you were arguing that, "since games were made before its advent, they can be made without it!" To which... well, no shit. What is your point?
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Honestly, the amount of people who don't know that most if not all games being made today are made with at least some help from image generative AI (of which Stable Diffusion is probably by far the most used model) is mind boggling.
I can get this from people who aren't into making games even as an interest, but this is about people who have interest in the subject. And they have no idea.
Social media really isolated some people into their own islands of awareness, where they aren't even aware of the elephant
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You said greater than 10 years ago.
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Diffusion generated art is a process. The model is merely the weights used for that process.
It takes software to feed the noise and embeddings to the model in order to produce the image.
I swear to fuck you get dumber every time you try.
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The argument you're implying is that models have self-execution abilities, and are in fact not calculated by programs.
By the way, any system that takes sequences of stochastic data is a markov system. Mathematically speaking. Please feel free to explain to me condescendingly that maths is secondary to computer science as if they're somehow in disagreement.
That is entirely incorrect, and I explained that to your stalker ass last time.
A Markov system must satisfy the Markov Property.
Feel free to educate yourself. [wikipedia.org]
Maths and computer science aren't in disagreement at all, only reality and your ignorance.
LLMs are autoregressive- they consider the entire past history to predict t
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Don't flatter yourself
I'm not- you're doing that for me.
You think I don't see you trying to snipe people out of spite? I'm not fucking stalking you, you self important bufon. I'm making sure you don't come into my spaces to talk bullshit about other stuff you also don't fucking understand because the chip on your shoulder is so damn big...
Ya, you are.
Thankyou for again explaining that you got the words you're saying here from marketing from a company that stands to make money off you believing them. The fact you're relying on nobody involved understanding the contents of the page you posted was already taken into consideration.
What in the fuck are you talking about?
From the page:
A stochastic process has the Markov property if the conditional probability distribution of future states of the process (conditional on both past and present values) depends only upon the present state; that is, given the present, the future does not depend on the past.
Emphasis mine.
A Markov system's evolution depends only on the current state.
i.e.,
If the last token was A, the next token's probability stems only from that fact.
If that is not a true statement, then your system is not Markovian.
To demonstrate the difference, a Markovian token predictor would have a next state probability field of V^n, where V is the vocabulary, and n is how large your n-gram is.
A non
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Mind you I have a pretty old card so maybe if you turn on Ray tracing that's not true. But I've seen comparisons from Ray traced games on the 9000 series now that AMD is caught up to where Nvidia is and they look identical to me.
Back in the day even with my shitty color
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"I can't tell the difference".
That's ok. Most people can't tell the difference between AI images and real ones either.
Meanwhile everyone with even cursory interest in gaming knows that we had a massive event back in 2010s when Nvidia started to optimize things on driver level so that they would omit certain details from the image to generate more performance. At first, people had the same reaction as they're having to AI now. "Oh my god, you're making image worse, and muh artistic something something".
Today
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Not to mention that the first thing any gamer does when they get a game is turn all that artistic crap off, both to get a better framerate, but also to make the game easier to see. The fewer "artistic effects" on the screen, the easier it is to see what's happening. The idea that gamers care about "artistic intent" is hilarious if you've ever seen any gamer community.
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I play single-player games, and like them to look pretty.
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GPUs have been making artistic decisions for well over a decade at this point.
Wow, ignorant much? GPUS have made zero artistic decisions that it wasn't precisely programmed to do with the exception of ... DLSS... which is what everyone is complaining about. All possible optimisations to that point have been both explicitly in control of the developer, and more importantly deterministic.
DLSS is neither.
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It actually bodes really well for DLSS5 that so many people don't remember 2010s, when nvidia started making driver level changes to rendering pipeline to simplify frames in a way that gave them more performance advantage.
It was a pretty big brouhaha, similar to one we're having here. And now... no one is even aware of it. Or the fact that AMD joined them very quickly, leading to quite a decent discrepancy in how image is rendered.
Intel has their own variation on this as well.
Re: Empathy??? (Score:2)
Amen!
The the to play games is through mateix style displays showing you the math or pixel perfect sprites.
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How delusional do you have to be to essentially belittle your customers like this.
Imagine thinking gamers still matter to Huang.
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When a lizard-brained psychopath who is physically incapable of empathy uses the word, you know it's some type of lie or manipulation.
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It shows they don't need to be in the same room with someone to analyze their actions.
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Basically, are you watching a performance or normal personal behavior? Only one of those can be used for the kind of assessment you made, and unless you know the guy personally,
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It's telling that you compare Altman's actions with acting. That is often what he's doing, but when you don't tell someone it's an act, we have another word for that: deception. And if an actor regularly acts, that is indeed his regular behavior.
If you want an honest, dispassionate analysis of someone, friends are exactly the ones not to consult.
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Black box not useful for artists (Score:4, Insightful)
Artists are all about control. If the "inner workings of it still aren't clear on a technical level" this means that you can't predict its behavior. If you can't predict its behavior, how can you use it in any dynamic environment with certainty that it will work well as you intend? He should try to peddle it for improving workflows of VFX artists, I'm sure it will be very popular there too.
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Has it occurred to you that perhaps artists aren't a homogeneous group? It should be obvious since the word itself is so fucking vague that no 2 people at random will agree on who it includes.
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So one cannot have an understanding what's going on in a particular industry? I've worked with and talk to people in both games and film industry. My statement is derived from an understanding of artists and of pipelines. Film and game studios - they all enable artists to do their work. For example, Pixar's RenderMan, includes "non-physical" controls, which "are designed to help artists make art-directed imagery by ignoring certain laws of physics we usually simulate." (from the docs). First time I saw thi
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First time I saw this in a paper. So, yeah, "artists", and you also seem to have no clue.
And you seem to have an elementary grasp of logic.
That an artist may want that proves my point, not yours.
Artists are not a homogeneous group. Some may want to bend the laws of physics. Others will be steadfastly against it.br. There is no amount of mental gymnastics you can execute to make your statement less ridiculous.
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Some may want to bend the laws of physics. Others will be steadfastly against it.
And *all* would like their work to appear as *they* intended. It's not hard to grasp. Point me to one artist (who is not a burnt out husk) that would say "sure I don't care about the skin texture I labored to hard to make fucking pores and wrinkles for, just turn DLSS so you can see it better, as NVIDIA knows best". Give it a rest.
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You said:
And *all* would like their work to appear as *they* intended.
Which of course, no one ever denied. This is called a straw man.
It's not hard to grasp. Point me to one artist (who is not a burnt out husk) that would say "sure I don't care about the skin texture I labored to hard to make fucking pores and wrinkles for, just turn DLSS so you can see it better, as NVIDIA knows best". Give it a rest.
And this is you beating that straw man to a pulp.
All I need to do is point to one artist who judged his work by what the output of the model was, no differently than a complex filter in photoshop, which they also have no fucking clue what its technical details are, but a pretty fine grasp of what its non-technical deta
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You misunderstand, either on purpose or because you can't read. Photoshop, and genAI can be used while authoring, yes. To get the look one wishes, as part of the creative process. DLSS is runtime working ON THE RESULTS of their work. It's like working first, making your artistic decision, and then passing it over to the AI to make its own judgement and interpretation. Just no.
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All I need to do is point to one artist who judged his work by what the output of the model was, no differently than a complex filter in photoshop, which they also have no fucking clue what its technical details are, but a pretty fine grasp of what its non-technical details are- almost precisely analogous to how they'll use model-generated/augmented art.
It's not really the same. With the photoshop filter the artist can choose which filter they want to use, apply it, check whether they like the end result, go back to the original if they don't, apply a different filter on top of that if it's not quite right, tweak the results of the filter by hand, etc etc and only after all that if they're completely satisfied with the end result it will go into the actual game binaries. Certain textures may benefit from one type of filters while others need another type o
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Hating it all the way to the bank (Score:5, Insightful)
"I don't love AI slop myself" says the biggest contributor to the generation of AI slop.
Prices (Score:2)
How about graphics card prices? Is he empathetic to those?
This is so much worse than on first glance (Score:5, Interesting)
DLSS 5 isn't a shader, it's an image fuckaround, and one that isn't temporally stable either. I originally skipped the FIFA example they demonstrated (because I hate the game and EA), but holy shit DLSS 5 fundamentally can't handle moving scenes at all. Originally the only motion I saw was in Starfield's outdoor scene and I noted in the previous article how shadows and ambient occlusion are now completely unstable which was distracting as all hell, but now that I've seen the FIFA demo,... oooh boy.
- During the goal celebration the player's shirt goes unstable with DLSS on looking like 10 chest bursters were trying to work their way out of his body. https://www.reddit.com/r/EASpo... [reddit.com] like seriously these were moving like crazy and weren't part of the original image, nor was the moire artefacts. ... ONLY ON ONE HALF OF THE HEAD? https://cdn.videocardz.com/1/2... [videocardz.com]
- During the kick the player's seems to yeet the ball through an alternate dimension with DLSS turned on. Please all you "it looks better" people, TELL ME WHAT THE FUCK LOOKS BETTER HERE: https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmas... [reddit.com]
- No seriously, tell me how much your specular highlights are important to you when the game starts refusing to render basic elements properly https://www.extremetech.com/ga... [extremetech.com]
- I mean yeah subsurface scattering is faked now for devs who were too slack to do the job properly, but is that visual treat really worth DLSS changing a characters haircut
It's like Microsoft complained about being called Microslop, and NVIDIA said... hold my beer.
This isn't a shader. It's a really poorly created AI image creator that required TWO RTX5090s to run in the demo. Congrats you can pay $4000USD for the privilege of your games looking like AI slop. That's what this is really about. Open your wallet paybitch!
Can't wait for the first DLSS 5 example to revert us back to not being able to count fingers on hands anymore. I've never seen a more rubbish product.
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There's this Disney video game my partner loves playing and it has absolutely horrible issues with clipping. They recently added horseback riding as a game mechanic, and the horse clips through damn near everything. That's pretty much where the bar is right now for graphical accuracy in games, so I'm not entirely sure that a bit of AI introduced graphical glitches are a total dealbreaker.
Needing $4k worth of GPUs though? Yeah, that part's not gonna fly.
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Intel... (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm about done with NVIDIA. Here's to hoping Intel improves their Linux driver support... They step up their game, and I could be convinced to switch. But right now.... It's all crap.
T
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So you're only about 95% done with NVIDIA, since they own 5% of Intel? That should tell you everything you need to know about the market. Even Trump admits NVIDIA has a monopoly, and he said so with Lisa Su sitting next to him.
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If you're using Linux then there is absolutely no reason to choose Intel over AMD for graphics, and lots of reasons to do the opposite. The OSS AMD driver is excellent. I have several graphics-related problems on my main desktop with Nvidia graphics, and none on my AMD MiniPC.
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Dude. We are in free fall. This is the end game. Nothing will ever get better until total and complete collapse of society as a whole worldwide. You can thank Europeans that have not had to deal with Reality in 2 thousand years for this result.
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You can thank Europeans that have not had to deal with Reality in 2 thousand years for this result.
They had about as much reality as they could eat just last century and still learned nothing.
The blatant lies part of the hype (Score:3)
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I almost believed it until I saw the FIFA footage with the ball disappearing and re-appearing and smearing all over the place. It's clearly not aware of wireframes and in-game objects.
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Then please demonstrate the ease of proof by proving your claims.
Finally (Score:2)
Someone who knows what "empathetic" means.
It's hot garbage (Score:2)
It's really nice to have what is basically the world's most awesome anti-aliasing / magical magnification application there is.
The problem is that you cannot extract more information than there was in the source data, so when you add detail you are literally adding it (not recovering it). When AI adds detail, it can do some amazing things... but it can also hallucinate or average things towards a blend of its relevant training data.
It's a cheap shortcut that is unnecessary for most people and for the peopl
Product sucks (Score:2)
Do better next time.
Sigh (Score:3)
"You know, all of the AI-generated content increasingly looks similar, and they're all beautiful..."
Yeah, you and I are not on the same page.
Nvidia's do you not have phones moment (Score:2)
Frame gen was stupid. This is somehow even worse. Who are Nvidia building these products, that gamers DO NOT want, for??
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can someone please buy him a new jacket (Score:2)
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The efficiency of generative AI slop or not is the point. And we've had this discussion about web design in general and how the pigeonhole effect that frameworks have on style choices, style lost. Still .net made microsoft untouchable, to give an example. Back to generative AI, I have a suspicion that the unattractive "slop" is due to constraints in choices put on the agent, like a web framework no doubt.
I'm not a web developer but most art is simply recycled from other projects just the same? in a generative framework?
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What a user does on a computer on a platform tends to be about, replication and not artistic output. The art of it is telling the replicator well, what to replicate. People are using AI agents to demand relevant, wide scoped, project defining output with vague generalized abbreviated human language. Therefore the output due to their own ignorance is a mess of mass produced garbage. So I am of a mind that it is not the fault of the agent.