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Wine Software

TWINE - Wine and Twin converge 77

mecca writes "CodeWeavers has announced they are in the process of merging the Willows TWIN code and Wine code in order to help port Windows software." Interestingly this project is being spear-headed by Rob Farnum, the key architect of Twin. The resulting code will be under the LGPL (Twin is LGPL'd, Wine is BSD'd. So the LGPL wins).It would appear that the Wine guys are cool with this. Some Twine code is available now, and more should come soon. Codeweavers is offering employment including to people who don't want to move to cold Minnesota.
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TWINE - Wine and Twin converge

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  • To quote the LGPL:

    A program that contains no derivative of any portion of the Library, but is designed to work with the Library by being compiled or linked with it, is called a "work that uses the Library". Such a work, in isolation, is not a derivative work of the Library, and therefore falls outside the scope of this License...

    This wording was designed so that proprietary or non-GPL-but-still-Free software could link statically to an LGPL library by distributing the object modules. An executable file already statically linked would not qualify for this term, and falls under Section 6.

    My understanding is that a dynamic executable has not yet been linked by the terms of the license, but instead is linked at runtime (with ld.so or some other mechanism), so the dynamic executable still qualifies as a "work that uses the Library" per this section, and so it can be distributed directly without object modules.

    All this assumes that the object module or dynamic executable doesn't still become a "derived work" by the vague explanation later in section 5.

    The wording was carefully arranged so that you can update or modify the LGPL part of the work, while keeping the API intact, and still be able to have a working executable. Dynamic executables allow this without including the object modules.
  • Mirc is most definitely not a Good Thing.
  • > it's usually run by linux-wannabes.

    Someone posting illiterately as an AC who actually expects to be taken seriously when he accuses others of being "wannabes". How did you get in here, sonny? Didn't Rob card you? Or did you tell him you were looking for your daddy?

    Craig [airnet.net]

  • > If (T)Wine is LGPL'ed, then they'll have to release object files for the Office Suite so that it can be re-linked, right?

    Wrong. You can release your executable any way you want, but if you make any changes to the library source they must be publicly available, a la GPL.

    Libc is LGPL, for example, and every available Linux executable (including Applix, Netscape 4, StarOffice, etc.) is linked against it.

    Craig

  • which is a bad thing, not a good thing. Far too many people have figgue this out, which means that I can't live on a 100 acre farm for dirt cheep.

    anyone know if I can get a good job in Montana, someplace that Isn't so crowded, but still has good fishing, wide open space, and not far from a good job.

  • It's been pretty nice today, plus the three for four inches of snow that's fallen today has put a nice coat of white on everything.

    I've only heard about 2 roads being closed, so it's a pretty small storm.
  • What part of SD is known as Silicon Prairie? Is this a term that someone made up since I moved from there in '95? I know Gateway was located in N. Sioux City, but calling that Silicon Prairie sounds kinda lame to me. I'd rather be working here. [usgs.gov]

    I don't mind the cold, either. It's not as bad as people seem to think. What I think is really funny is seeing people in the South practically wearing parkas in the winter when it's maybe 30-32 degrees F. That's about the time I zip up my windbreaker.

  • I used to work there, and it was something cooler than ERDAS. The pay wasn't great, but it has some neat projects to work on. Too bad the wife doesn't view cool projects & hardware as an important part of work. =(

  • No doubt. I've never really had a problem with the cold. I actually miss the cold now that I'm here in chicago. As for the cost of living, I still buy a ton of crap when I go home because its about the cheapest place you can live in America. And at least during the summer it isn't 80 bazillion degrees.
  • WINE is more than a binary emulator, it too is a library to allow porting of Windows sources. That's the intened usage for Corel's future WINE-based projects.
    --
    Aaron Gaudio
    "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
  • I doubt WINE is going to change their license based on what TWINE does. TWINE is a seperate product which will use code from WINE, correct?
    --
    Aaron Gaudio
    "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
  • Erm, does anyone bother static-linking things these days (yes, yes, I know you need to once in a while, but...). Somehow I don't think it'll make any difference.

    Although anyway Corel may stick to their decision to use WINE, rather than switching to Twine.

  • After 12 inches of snow, I had to "hack" my way out of my driveway this morning in MN. Clean air, low cost of living etc. make MN full of benefits, just like Linux. Also, just like Linux, there are hardships, but some of us are weather and environment hackers, sub-zero cyclists, etc. who enjoy the challenge and the rewards of living here.
  • We really need this. Are the Willows TWIN folks still working for Caldera's holding company? If so, those guys should be thanked for supporting the work.

    Bruce

  • I don't generally hang out on slashdot waiting to get first post :-) I've been testing a new DSL link today.

    Bruce

  • Qt's free software now, and KDE is in Debian because it's real free software now. I'm proud of having something to do with making that happen. All of the KDE coders were very glad when Qt went free.


    I was testing a new DSL when I got first post. I'm going to serve some nice free software sites off of it. I bet you won't like that either.


    Bruce

  • How exactly does one become a linux-wannabe? I thought the point of running linux was to run an open source, fast, reliable OS you can modify, not to be cool. Personally I am currently running KDE, because I think it's a neat project (and would like to develop some apps for it if I get the time), but I've also used fvwm, mwm, twm, olwm, olvwm, afterstep, qvwm, windowmaker, ect. However, I'll admit the original guy was a wanker, but that shouldn't reflect upon all KDE users. In general, many KDE users do tend to be newer to unix than a lot of people, but that isn't a bad thing. As long as the support structure is in place where more expirienced unix people offer assistence, KDE could very well be unixes best chance to bring people to a desktop unix system, and to bring a desktop unix system to people (not necessarily the same thing).
  • by Scola ( 4708 )
    MS extending products meant to migrate people away from MS OSes? That would be great in my opinion, but it ain't going to happen.
  • by Scola ( 4708 )
    Yes, but what if a company or a group acting under a BSD-style license wanted to make an emulator for some MS API in the future (Win64?), and wanted to grab say half the source from wine and do the rest themselves. Well, with a LGPL license they wouldn't, and thus the unix world would loose a valuable piece of software.
  • So they fork. So what. If it is an open source product who cares who's leading the charge? If it is a commercial product as would be allowed by the BSD-style license of wine, in the short term the commercail product might draw more people to linux, and in the long term the open source product will win out do to the superiority of the development model.
  • I think that the purpose of putting the code into the Wine code base first is so that Wine can continue to keep its old license. Wine code CAN be used in (L)GPL projects, but (L)GPL code cannot be used in wine. Therefore, to keep both projects moving, a developer needs to fix wine problems in the wine source itself first (under the wine license) and then move it to the TWINE project, where the it gets rebranded as LGPL.
  • Twin was originally designed as a tool to source-port Windows applications to Other OSes (like Linux and the Mac). Working binary emulation I think is more of a secondary goal, but there is an x86 emulator in the Twin sources. Wine, if I understand correctly, is only a binary emulator, and only runs on machines that can natively run x86 machine code.
  • Cold? What's that? I've got -3C currently in Mankato, barometer at 760mm, and snow's been piling up nicely all day. The Cities were getting an inch per hour earlier today. . . but it was downright balmy earlier this week. This winter was really tame. Anyone who complains about the temperature is a wee pansy. :)

    I think it would be pretty keen to have a job in Minneapolis, it's a fun city (go T-Wolves!). . .I'll probably be stuck in that bland suburban expanse--Bloomington.
  • I'd like to work THERE as well. You'd probably get to play with ERDAS Imagine or something even cooler. Landsat 7 in July! Whee!
  • Hmmm, I read some antiquated information. The official website says March/April. That's even sooner. :)
  • quick someone point a microwave generator at his head before he says something so inane that
    it causes a rippling effect and collapse's the universe.

    Morons should never be allowed to breed. This
    fscking retard is proof of that.
  • I still like:

    "Hey, baby, what's your cosine?"
  • The general "Open Free Software Hippie" movement is a breadth-first solution. Although it's cool that these projects are working together, fragmentation is often a feature, not a bug.




  • Nice one man, that AC kiddie just can't keep up with ya. :)
    ------------------------------
  • I for one am damn glad to hear that these two forces are getting together and cooperating on this project. Linux may have a lot of cool apps, but it seems too often that there are multiple teams doing the same thing. Why do we need 20 different word processors when the authors could get together and make one kick-ass one that would dwarf word perfect or M$Word? It's too bad the Gnome and KDE teams haven't cooperated like this...
  • Why shouldn't Linux get a crack at the same competition and refinement that Windows had some years ago?

    I remember some ages-past article about "The Dueling Suites" in PC Computing which actually compared Office with SmartSuite and Corel (who's that?) Of course, MS won the top reviews throughout the article with strong wording, "hands down" or something similar.

    Microsoft sycophants they may have been, but I personally feel that Word was a stronger product at the time, with a cleaner interface, more customizable, and easier to use. I know there's probably going to be someone posting a reply about "I loved SmartSuite, still use it even though corporate's gone office" or something, but I still feel that Office improved faster than its competitiors. Just like how MS whipped its programmers into making IE faster than Netscape.

    Word, having overtaken Wordperfect and Ami Pro, went on to become the virus it is today.

    Microsoft would not have done half the refinement and improvement they put into Word were there no competition from Lotus and Wordperfect - Borland - Corel.

    For now, it's usability and basic features that drive the development of KOffice [kde.org], AbiWord, lyx, etc. but I think that ego and a quest for popularity would be good for driving future enhancements.

    Besides, multiple word processors leaves open the possiblity that they will fill different niches, instead of emulating Word's one-bloat-fits-all approach.
  • What is wrong with a good GUI? Just because someone likes a desktop environment that lifts some ideas from Microsoft, it doesn't make them any less intelligent, knowledgable, or "real".

    Now, the charge is often levelled that a CLI is more flexible, and thus is more powerful in the hands of a knowledgable user. I agree with that, completely. However I feel that a knowledgable user's time is best spent on useful things, not routine ones. A GUI can be quite useful and time-saving for mundane, ordinary tasks.

    Clicking on a modem in my task bar and hitting "connect" is simple, as anything I do 10 times a day *should* be. (my isp is quite unreliable at times). Same with opening netscape --geometry blah --no-about-splash, and reading/replying to email. Routine, easy tasks, that are convenient to do with mouse clicks.

    A GUI can also make powerful, complicated features of CLI software easier to access, too. rpm managers, and other frontends are nice things to have in a gui.

    Perhaps much of the GUI frustration comes from ex-Windows users, or those who have to try to administrate NT for a living. To these people I say that KDE is not attempting to replace the command line.

    KDE is not a budding Win32, trying to shield you from a command line. Nothing about KDE prevents you from popping a konsole (or kvt if you prefer) and doing whatever it is that doesn't work in gui form. KDE is just a way of making GUI-capable things even easier.
  • there is alot of coperation between KDE and Gnome and people help each other out but in a differant way its like
    how shall we do this ? is that the best way ?
    then they tend to go off write code and then look at what each other has done !

    this is a cool way to go about things two free desktops its got to be good !

    and why do we need 20 differant word processors well dont you hate it when word **** yeah well thats why people like differant things and whatch the kde office and soon a gnome port im sure this is what M$ are afraid of and rightly so
    vi for those terminals and editing scripts
    emacs for programing
    and something else (corel) for WP thats me what about you ?

    differant I bet thats why their are 20 because we can Have choice !!!!!!!!!!!!

    freedom thats what its about people are diffrent every machine should not be the same !
  • It's timing, it's all a matter of timing. Someday I'm gonna dial up at 1200 using my old Anchor modem and get first post running lynx, just to prove it can be done. Otherwise, though, you'll pry the Cisco 675 out of my cold, dead fingers.

    I've noticed that a lot of the net goes just as fast (slow) as it did before I got DSL. But it's
    a lot easier to tell who's sitting next to an OC3 now :)

    ========
  • Yeah, if it gets warm enough you can get an NHL team in Minneapolis again just like Dallas...

    ========

    Tweet!! Two minutes for obstruction SYN flooding!

    ========
  • Why do we need 20 different word processors when the authors could get together and make one kick-ass one that would dwarf word perfect or M$Word?

    Because no two people could ever possibly agree on the final goal. Everyone has a different opinion about how a word processor should work.

    The whole point of freedom is choice. If there aren't choices, how free are you? If everyone worked together on one word processor, there'd be only one word processor, and no choice.

    Me? I use vim [vim.org]. But I don't expect everyone else to follow me. Use what you like, or if you don't like what's available, write your own. :-)

  • People don't realize how many tehnical companies are up around these parts: and I will kick anyone's ass who says this town is cold-- as soon as I get my tongue removed from this flag-pole... But seriously: There are a lot of hi-tech companies around here: Seagate [seagate.com], Digi International [dgii.com], SGI [sgi.com], Comtrol, and of course IBM (Rochester, MN). South Dakota had the "Silicon Prairie," we have the "Technical Tundra." I'm going out for ice-cream... -AP (Minnetonka, MN) [Min-uh-TONG-ka]
  • The glorious meept would like to point you all the a website which has some windows emulators which cost no more than an expensive linux distribution, but at the same time , make you more attractive to women. Even the pretty ones: here [www]
  • Twin + WINE = TWINE... So what? [I'm not being sarcastic here -- I'm honestly wondering. BTW, I have not used WINE or TWIN, so please excuse my ignorance.]

    In the TWINE FAQ [codeweavers.com], in lists the following liabilities to the wine project:

    1. However, Wine has been used primarily for binary emulation. It's Winelib source porting toolkit has often been neglected and lags behind the source porting facilities in TWIN.
    2. Also, Wine has little or no provision for cross platform support. It really only targets x86 Linux machines well.

    Later in the FAQ:

    1. Although the Twine project is an open source project, with limited CVS write access, we ask all Twine developers to never modify Wine code within Twine. Instead, we prefer that all work on Wine modules be done directly within the confines of the Wine project. That way, any efforts we make within Twine are immediately shared with the Wine project, and no licenses are violated.
    2. Further, CodeWeavers is retaining all rights to new code written for use in Twine. This means that we will be able to release that code under the Wine license.
    Those last two paragraphs case me to hesitate -- what's really free/open source here?

    More fundamentally, in terms of the broad Linux movement, wouldn't it make more sense for the majority of us Linux C++ programmers to focus our efforts on creating/finishing a completely OpenSource tool which could port the Win32 API's and the MFC to Linux compatible source code?

  • Makes sense. Thanks for the clarifications.
  • I think i'm going to be intoxicated.. =>
  • TWINE - The World Is Not Enough
    November 19, 1999
  • They could grab the source from Wine which has a BSD-style license. See the GNU web site for an important difference between a BSD-style license and *the* BSD license. They just couldn't do so for Twine or Twin, which are LGPL'd. Even so, the LGPL is pretty liberal, more so than the GPL, and only covers the particular library you're working on. Proprietary code may still be linked against it. Many people would not have a problem using LGPL.
  • KDE is pretty much the realization of the vision I had for Linux some time ago: providing a flexible, powerful GUI environment for those who want or think they need it, and the legendary CLI for those who prefer that approach, making each one removable. Because of Linux's modular, keep-it-simple philosophy, it is able to do this very well. Unlike some other OS's who feel the need to integrate everything under the sun...

    What I DON'T want to see is the vast majority of Linux applications becoming dependent on KDE or GNOME. I'm short on hard disk space right now and so can't run either ;_;
  • No, there are not a lot of hi-tech companies around here, especially if you're looking to write code. Seagate is big, but SGI just has the old Cray division here. Not sure about Digi. Other than that, we have Secure Computing and Control Data and lots of little guys .

    Dave Beal, who covers business news for the Pioneer Press, for a while did a weekly column about MN's tech companies. He did Secure, SGI, Net Perceptions, and a couple others and then gave it up, because there just weren't any more, unless you want to write about the three hackers holed up in a garage in Eden Prairie.

    High taxes and lousy weather (although it grows on ya) don't make much of a combo.

He's dead, Jim.

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