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Technology

Anti-DIVX article 206

Posted by CmdrTaco from the here's-the-deal dept.
Zane sent us an article from Best Buy that basically sums up all the problems with Circuit City's DivX Specs. Its actually a fairly complete article covering most of the major flaws of the format. Its interesting watching Best Buy & Circuit City duke it out too.
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Anti-DIVX article More

Anti-DIVX article

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  • The divx machines are individually serialized
    and the titles you buy are locked to that
    machine.

    So: What if you are dumb enough to buy more
    than one machine? What, you say, I
    have to buy movies more than once?!

    What if your machine dies after a time.
    how much does it cost to move all
    your titles to the new machine?
    Do they even have that ability?

    Hmm what if you get on the phone while
    the machine is reporting your viewing
    habits and downloading propaganda?
    Listening to modems is so much fun.
    What if the machines fight for the phone.


    It was a good article. I did not know that some
    of the titles are not available for permanent
    license. I doubt CC tells you that in their pitch.

    Heh, I wonder if the stores get charged for
    running demos. Someone could get a obscure divx
    title and start it on every one of their machines.

    Sigh...






  • Eh? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    And what, pray tell, are these "onerous restrictions" that you speak of? The zone encoding? I guess if you routinely take your DVDs with you on international travel, you might find zones to be an annoyance, although this scenario is a bit of a stretch. (And as the previous AC pointed out, given the differing television formats in different zones, the point is moot anyway.)

    DVD is an awesome technology. Divx has shown no signs of gaining any sort of mainstream acceptance, and people as influential as us Slashdot regulars will easily be able to keep it that way. :-)

  • divx blows... (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    The article does exaggerate a few points, such as the fact that you don't actually have to ever plug in a divx-crippled player. If you buy it, and only play DVDs on it, the POS never actually has to touch a phone line. But the minute you insert a divx-crippled disc, it always has to, or it won't ever work. Doesn't matter, because divx still blows chunks... You lose SO much over true DVD, and you have to have "the man" watching what you watch all the time. Too 1984 for me, thanks...

    What kind of idiot buys a divx anyway???
  • So, lets say you have a dozen DIVX disks, all of them are either silver licensed (or whatever the name is) or safely locked in a box. You have a friend, who has the identical situation. Now, your kid invites their kid over, and their kid brings his favorite movie over, so they can watch it together (an likely mistake).

    You then get a $3.25 (or whatever) bill for a movie you didn't approve of, you dispute it, and refuse to pay it. Are you saying that they can hold use of all of your hundreds of dollars in silver licenses ransom towards setting this $3.25 bill?!?!
  • I'd have to wonder exactly _when_ the Divx player would call.. When you start a movie? In the middle of the night?

    Imagine the scenario of sitting around one evening. The phone rings, just as the family is heading to the den to watch a movie on their Divx player. A lot of people would say "Go ahead, start the movie, I'll be there in a minute," but the family probably wouldn't be able to start the movie because the phone line was in use!

    Silly people..
  • One of the biggest problems I have with Divx is: what happens if Divx Corp goes under? All Divx discs will just turn into coasters!

    Alex Bischoff
    ---

  • DIVX encoding is just as available to the world as any other encoding scheme, and if it is ever cracked, the entire DIVX scheme will be broken. What would they do at that point? They would have to either use a new encoding scheme or give up. In either case, current DIVX players would revert to ordinary DVD players, or at least require firmware upgrades, and any "silvered" disks or pre-purchased DIVX discs out there would no longer play.

    This also means that they would probably never license a DIVX-ROM device, even if they could use it to "rent" software -- it would give crackers a lot more access.

  • How often do you go to Blockbuster and wander around trying to decide what you want to rent? With Divx, you make a shopping trip and buy a dozen movies.

    That's bullshit man. The majority of video renters check out new releases. If you buy 12 videos ahead of time and watch one per week, you are basically giving up on the idea of watching new releases... well after your first two, anyway. You're also doomed to the concept of buying flicks well in advance, because once you watch six of your twelve, you now only have six to choose from -- the six you had earlier decided you didn't want to watch -- so now it's back to the store to buy another six discs.

    Furthermore, if you eventually decide you don't want to watch any of those discs (let's say your friend tells you how crappy one of them is), you are out that money, period.

    WTF is so hard about going to a video store? I have four of them within three miles of my house. Are we so lazy that we can't stand a ten-minute trip outside? (If we are, we can still use NetFlix to rent over the web and get our full-DVD rentals by mail...)

  • ...look through a shoebox filled with movies (maybe have them delivered to your home in bulk via subscription - CDs can be churned out for pennies)

    The DIVX discs can't be churned out for pennies, because unlike ordinary DVDs, they are all *individually* serialized. The folks at Circuit City have to know what your player has played and how to bill it. That's one reason why they still have to charge about 5 bucks for that first-time disk purchase. They would love it if they could hand them out on street corners in the hopes that DIVX owners would eventually play the movies. But they can't.

  • Interestingly enough, they had a horrible time getting a working player out the door, let alone a good one. The first sales trial of Divx was delayed a couple of times, ostensibly because the studios hadn't put out as many titles as Rick Sharp promised they would (which is true; they hadn't), but actually because they couldn't get the players working reliably. There was some speculation for a while that they wouldn't get them working at all.

    'Course, when you have the country's largest electronics retailer team up with a Beverly Hills law firm to define a new technology, I guess getting something that works at all (let alone well) is a victory.

  • Bah that's not the point. The point is to crack this player and then laugh at Circuit City's "strong" encryption methods, not to actually *use* the cracked player to watch movies that you could just rent on DVD anyway.
  • If that's the case, that means that it should be technically possible to crack the player. Since it's not actually calling up when you want to play the disc, that means the keys to decrypt the discs are already available locally on the player. All you need to do is somehow modify the player so that it *thinks* it's calling up once a month, when in reality it never calls anybody.
  • Supposedly the memory is tamper-resistant, so erasing it may be difficult. Also, it'll stop playing DivX discs after a certain number have been played until it can contact the company to sort out your bill, so you can't just somehow prevent it from ever calling.

    The most feasible solution I've seen is for somebody with the appropriate equipment to watch their player make a few calls, and from them reverse-engineer the protocol it uses. Then you'd have to set up a closed-circuit fake phone circuit in your house, so when it dials the DivX billing number, your circuit connects it to your computer, which will then pretend to be the DivX billing computer.

  • A Divx player remembers the serial numbers of the disks you've played, using internal memory. Then the player dials up Divx Central Headquarters at 3 AM every two weeks, or something like that, and syncs its information with them.

    So you don't have to have the phone free when you fire up the Divx player.

  • Reading this article reminded me of something else I saw on the Web the other day: the cluetrain manifesto [cluetrain.com].

    Companies need to lighten up and take themselves less seriously. They need to get a sense of humor.

    Getting a sense of humor does not mean putting some jokes on the corporate web site. Rather, it requires big values, a little humility, straight talk, and a genuine point of view.

    Already, companies that speak in the language of the pitch, the dog-and-pony show, are no longer speaking to anyone.

    In just a few more years, the current homogenized "voice" of business--the sound of mission statements and brochures--will seem as contrived and artificial as the language of the 18th century French court.

  • Posted by wadageek:

    Wait until you need after the sale service if you really want to find out.
  • Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love:

    Actually the dial in portion of divx isn't copy protection. You don't want to copy the disc, just watch it. Do you own the disc? Absolutely, a good enough lawyer (or team of lawyers) could kick CC's ass in court if they tried to crack down on a key distribution system.

    But my main point is this, I too have heard claims about how "strong" divx encryption is, I think that divx players would be four times more expensive if they had the type of CPU power needed to decrypt (on the fly) and play 5.2 GB of strongly encrypted data. I've heard claims of triple des and what not, but I don't believe it.

    If someone were to make the claim that he'd sell you a device that would octouple out gas mileage, double your car's hoursepower and protect you in case of an accident yet only costs $14.99 and fits in your trunk, chances are he's lying. Same thing with divx.

    LK
  • Posted by AnObvious Coward:

    What does that foolishness stand for? Divide
    youself from 'X' $$$?

    Takes a phone line? Charges you for each use?
    Non-transferable? AND you have to call these
    people if you have problems?(with the machine
    USING your phone line?)

    I don't know about Disney, but Microsoft must have
    developed the marketing strategy. Probably the
    software too, even though the article didn't
    mention it randomly shutting your TV down.
  • Since Divx uses Triple-DES encryption, it is only available in the US (and only in 43 states). This is why regional coding shouldn't even play into the debate since it would not be apples to apples.

    If Divx every makes it off the mainland, then this should be considered an issue.

    Also, there is a 99.9% chance that if you have a set top DVD player and a DVD-ROM ... you bought them in the same "zone" so regional coding would not matter than either.
  • Disney backed Divx because they thought they could make even more money off the people addicted to their films.

    This backfired when Warner sold MILLIONS in DVD product while Disney sold "Thousands" in Divx product. People didn't by into their pay-per-view (screw-per-view) scheme like they had hoped, even with little Jimmy crying about not being able to watch the Lion King 15 times a day.
  • Yes. A DVD drive can read CD-Roms, CD-Rs, CD-RW's, etc. (first generation DVD drives couldn't read CD-R's, but the newer ones can). I have a second-generation DVD drive that I use in linux as a CD-ROM drive. Unfortunately, I still have to boot Windows to play DVD movies as there isn't support for those yet in Linux. Hopefully that's coming.

    However, only a DivX player can read DivX discs, and there are no DivX drives for PCs.

  • your post is pure FUD (Score:3)

    by Phaid ( 938 ) on Thursday April 01, 1999 @03:08PM (#1953082) Homepage
    But my real problem with the article was how it exagerrated the problems. If you sell your player, you call them up and they transfer it. No big deal.

    Um, yes, but if I sell my DVD player, I don't have to call anyone at all.

    If you want to watch your movie somewhere else, i'm sure you can just call them up or push a few buttons on your remote, and it'll work at your friend's house.

    "I'm sure". No indeed, if you want to watch a movie at your friend's house, they'll get charged for the next viewing. If you have upgraded the movie to "Silver" then you have to call Divx up and change the ownership of the movie to your friend. Then I guess you have to change it back later.

    And complaining that "Not a lot of movies are out for Divx" is like complaining that Linux doesn't have any applications.

    Actually it's almost entirely unlike complaining that Linux doesn't have any applications, mainly because that statement about Linux isn't true, while it is true about Divx.

    The entire divx concept is pure crap. I can rent DVDs at any of several Hollywood video and Blockbuster outlets in my town, as well as one of the local smaller chains, and I can buy them at any number of places, even including Wal-Mart if I so choose! I could only get DivX at... Circuit City. I pay less for a 3-day rental of a DVD than I would for a first viewing of a DivX film. If I buy a DVD, it's mine and I can watch it wherever and whenever I want -- and the cost of most DVD movies is no greater than the cost of buying a DivX and upgrading it to silver. I don't have to call anyone in Virginia to transfer title of the thing if I watch it at a friend's house -- and if I rent a DVD and decide it's so cool I have to take it to my friends' house the next day and watch it there, I don't have to pay anyone a second time. No one in Virginia gets to send me spam or know my viewing habits.

    Finally, I have two DVD players -- one a standalone DVD player in my living room, the other a PC with a DVD-ROM drive whose output is hooked up to a TV in my bedroom. Can't watch DivX on the PC, can I? And if I owned two DivX players, one for upstairs and one for down, I'd have to pay twice to see my own movies.

    No thanks.
  • I could care less about DivX, it sounds like an annoying, wasteful, proprietary idea. And there is little love lost between me and Circuit City or Best Buy, even though they do have okay prices on electronics, and lately Radio Shack has been getting worse.

    However, big thanks to Rob for not posting yet another April Fools non-news stuff that doesn't matter content-free rubbish-laden text. That was getting old.

  • What I think is more likely is that Divx will go out of bussiness and a lot of angry people will be stuck with worthless players and movies and you will probally see a class action lawsuit against circuit city.

    A lot of stupid angry people will be stuck with players that will probably still be able to play DVDs, but with arguably less quality and they still paid more for their machine. One could only hope that Divx bites the dust someday soon. As for the lawsuit.. I dunno... maybe it'll happen. I won't shed a tear for either side though. Anyone who bought Divx didn't do their research. It's not like it was a secret that Divx sucked.

  • I went to CC with a friend just to let them try to talk me into buying a Divx player instead of a DVD. I already knew I was going to buy a DVD player, and not from CC, but what the heck.. they're fun to mess with. ;) I brought up several of the points raised in the BB comparison just to see how he would try to squirm out of it. You're right though.. everything he said was like it was read out of a sales brochure. They must have a Circuit City Divx Re-education Camp somewhere. This guy was brainwashed. He kept trying to tell me what features I should want. I think the ASPCA should investigate. They aren't treating their trained mammals right at CC. ;)

  • Eh? (Score:1)

    by Danse ( 1026 )

    Yep. I don't care how many other people want the disc. If I want it, then I'd like to be able to buy it from whatever country it's available in and play it on my player. Bummer that it doesn't work that way. Might be able to play it on a PC player with the right software. Dunno for sure.

  • My understanding of DIVX is that it uses some kind of rotating keyset. And it's not Motion-JPEG on DVD, it's using MPEG-2. So I don't know if your theory would work.
  • This one I don't get. Maybe it's a pain or unsightly to run a phone cord to the nearest jack, but they do include a 25' cord, and it sounds like they even include the requisite "Y" plug.

    DIVX bites, but not particularly because it's hard to plug a phone cord into the wall.
  • According to what I have read, that is when it calls.

    'Course that doen't work so well for us night owls or those who use their phone to call their ISP all night every night.

    I wonder how well it could be spoofed by connecting it to my Linux box through a dial tone/ring generator...

  • That's `cause he owns it. I've read that Rick Sharp (head of Circuit City) thought up the outlines of the product, then assigned some good folks to flesh it out. I don't think he's going to fire himself. :-) (Hi, Rick!)

    (Dupe so I'm logged in---posting code forgot between preview and post last time.)

  • HDTV uses a 16:9 (1.77:1) width ratio for its picture. While this is an improvement over current 4:3 (1.33:1), it still is a narrower picture than most movies (2.35:1). So a HDTV picture will still cut off parts of the frame.
  • I used to work for CC doing computer tech support at answer city, and I created their first web page. When I left about a year ago, they were planning on rolling out NT 4 on EVERY SINGLE MACHINE. Apparently they got a huge corporate license from MS that requires exclusivity on the desktops, and any servers capable of running the software.

    It was a crappy company to work for, they treat employees and customers like dung. I am much happier where I am now.
  • At least, that's what Circuit City says. Just like they said they're committed to maintaining customer support before they closed down their computer support division. And when they closed that down, they told everyone they're still dedicated to supporting their other products, and no, the rest of the shop (supporting tvs, stereos, microwaves, etc), will definately not be closing within a year. Less than a year later, last month as a matter of fact, they closed their consumer support division completely. The only thing they support now is DivX. And they've sunk all their cash into it, if it goes, CC is going to be hurting something aweful.
  • Note that most DVD players (ie non-DVD-ROM drives) still can't play CD-R's...supposedly some of the higher end Sonys can, but most can't...
  • Note that I explicitly said "DVD Player" and NOT "DVD-ROM," I was talking tangentially about how the majority of set-top DVD Players (you know, for watchign movies on your TV) still *won't* read CD-R.
  • Some of the high end sonys have a dual laser pickup and will read CD-Rs. It's mainly a nice feature if you make your own music CDs. I've got a 200 disc changer but it's cumbersome to insert and remove discs. My DVD player is kindof nice cause I can use it as a "single tray" CD player to quickly play a disc without having to load it into the changer. Not all that big a deal but when you're paying a few hundred bucks for something like a DVD player, it's a tad grating that it can't do something your $70 portable can do. :>
  • But even if Disney had the audience to make or break it- the bad PR from all the grief caused by this stilted, broken, bogus videodisk format would have driven them out of the DIVX business as the people gave up in disgust over it all.
  • Simply put, it's a greedy power-grab by those parties in the entertainment industry that are most in need of a clue-by-fouring about things as they are and things as they're becoming. It's like the "secure music format" BS that the recording industry's trying to foist off as an alternative to MP3 (how many /.'ers out there think that's slowly going down in flames like DIVX is? ;-)
  • Stupid box has to certify the use before it'll unlock the disk for 48 hours.

    Yeah, and I envision your scenerio- and I'm amazed that they didn't include it into their comparision of the two formats.
  • It's "News for Nerds. Stuff that matters." This "matters", if you must know.

    How many times do we all have to tell people- "Yes, /. talks about Linux/Open Source, but NO, it's not the only thing we talk about..."?
  • ...for DVD vs. DIVX that I've seen. It says it exactly like it is without a LOT of marketroid BS- amazing that it's coming from a corporation.
  • Don't you see?!! There IS NO SUCH THING as DivX, this is just another April Fools joke!!!

    -Eric
  • If you buy a Zone 1 DVD, you can only play it on a Zone 1 DVD player.

    maybe on a DVD player, but on a PC it's easy to find a .reg file that will allow you to play zone1 or 2 or whatever with your DVD software
    --
  • I wander for less than a few minutes. Not to mention that I like to wander at 11 PM somtimes.

    Ever see a Circuit City open at 11 PM?

    Face it-- _nobody_ likes DIVX, except for the few of you who feel the need to play the devil's advocate. You probably don't even like DIVX yourself, and argue just for the sake of arguing. =P
  • You, as a /. reader, probably know your way around the backside of a workstation, so running the phone lines is no big deal. (This, of course, assumes that you have suffered sufficient blunt-force crainial trauma to actually buy a Divx player.)
    Compare this to Joey Baggadonuts, fresh from getting smoke blown up his butt by a Circuit City salesdrone. He carts home his overpriced Divx player, pulls it out of the box, takes one look at the spaghetti they call a wiring diagram, and says "What the hell is this?"

    Keith Russell
    Whatever happened to peaceful coexistance?
  • You, as a /. reader, probably know your way around the backside of a workstation, so running the phone lines is no big deal. (This, of course, assumes that you have suffered sufficient blunt-force crainial trauma to actually buy a Divx player.)

    Compare your experience to Joey Baggadonuts, fresh from getting smoke blown up his butt by a Circuit City salesdrone. He carts home his overpriced Divx player, pulls it out of the box, takes one look at the spaghetti they call a wiring diagram, and says "What the hell is this?"

    Just connecting the Divx player to the TV and the phone may be confusing enough. Add the VCR. Add the modem line. Add the kids' Playstation/N64/Intellivision. What if a tech-savvy person hooked all that up, but isn't available now?

    Customer satisfaction becomes customer confusion.

    Keith Russell
    Whatever happened to peaceful coexistance?
  • I don't have references, so feel free to flame if you must. I seem to remember reading somewhere that while DVD provides better resolution than VHS and sufficient quality for today's TVs it doesn't fully utilize the capabilities of HDTV. Is this true?

    Will there be a new format in a few years that looks great on an HDTV set and makes DVDs look like old VHS tapes?

    An enhanced DVD format would of course require you to buy a new player, but if future players are going to provide better quality wouldn't it be better to buy DIVX disks at $4.50 each rather than buying DVDs at $15-20 each and replacing them in 5 years with enhanced DVDs for another $15-20 each?

    What is the resolution of HDTV anyway? Prices on LCD projectors have been dropping rapidly and so has the size and weight, resolution and brightness are increasing. Within 5-10 years I expect to have a ceiling mounted LCD projector that can display a picture the full height of a wall (i.e. at least 8-10 feet high maybe higher depending on the room) and with some ridiculous number of pixels. Do I really want to build a collection based on DVDs? I bet if I get the projector I've described I'll be replacing all my disks.
  • Question: hardware mpeg decoders are pure decoders
    and don't give two dingos kindeys about zones, right? So if your software DVD interface cares about zones, can't you simply use a different software DVD interface?

    I'd think this would be easier than modifying consumer units (which can be and _IS_ being done..)

  • "...But i can only play MP3s on my computer. This new format doesn't work with my old equipment, so it sucks."

    Nobody is saying that. not even DVD works on old equipment (that VHS slot is a little too big)

    If I buy 2 brand-new computers, I can play all my mp3s on either computer without paying extra. If I buy 2 brand-new DivX players, I have to buy seperate movies for each one. That is ridiculous. DivX is ridiculous.

    my $ .02

  • ...you are backing a crappy technology when your competitor can write an article like this and not set off anyone's BS detectors. Well written and had almost none of the expected "us vs them" that corporate comparisions usually have. I wonder if the people responsible for selling Circuit City on DIVX still work there? I'd imagine that heads have rolled by now. Wait I think I see one now...
  • This is not a defense of Divx, but...

    My father-in-law was thinking about buying one because he lives in very rural America. He wanted to be able to go into town, buy 10 or 20 divx movies, then watch them at his leisure. There are no video stores where he lives, so he felt this was a decent compromise.

    I told him that www.reel.com rents movies by mail. He bought a DVD.

    However, this is one case where a divx *might* be useful.

    -dan
  • This article does a good job of summing up all that I've seen on the topic over the past several months. What I find amusing is that they try to promote DVD as "less convienient". If you are the rent once/watch once user that may be a valid point. However I think most people see a movie a couple of times before they purchase. I see Divix as a way to produce more landfill waste and fleece the unsuspecting consumer.

    Get a DVD as a gift that just isn't what you thought it would be and you can pass it along to someone else after a preview. Pass along a Divix and they have to buy it again. It wasn't entirely clear, and I haven't seen anything to this effect, but does anyone know if a Divix disk can be unlocked on one player and then the "Silver" option purchased for another player in the future? What would the ramifications be if your player were destroyed (struck by lighning, the kids put a PBJ sandwich in it, whatever) and you had to replace it? Would you have to "repurchase" the movies or just spend hours on the phone getting it all sorted out?


    Yep, sounds like what I want in an entertainment system, more hassle.



    --Kit

  • When did tentacles become a synonym for interest?

  • You work at Circuit City, don't you?

    I knew it was a matter of time before someone accused me of this. Jesus, people. I'm just saying that maybe one of your arguments doesn't hold water and that while Divx has its problems, there are a lot of good ideas there.

    I don't doubt that there are a few good ideas there, but they're so overwhelmed by the flaws that they're difficult to detect. :-)

    But the discussion thus far has centered primarily on the technical, financial, and ease-of-use flaws in DIVX. Few have discussed the real problem with DIVX:

    Suppose that technically and economically, DIVX were flawless. It would still be a really bad idea. Why?

    Well, suppose DIVX really takes off, enough so that it kills normal DVD, videotapes, and laser discs. If it were technically and economically brilliant, it might have a chance of doing just that.

    But suddenly, one centralized company controls everybody's ability to view movies. This, my friend, is a monopoly. And it means that Circuit City and their lawyer cohorts can now set prices as high as they like. And they will...just low enough that people still pay up, but not any lower than that. The studios love this idea because they'll be reaping the benefits as well.

    You see, the best thing about DVD is that it encourages competition: between movie studios, between video stores, between DVD player manufacturers, etc. DIVX would eliminate virtually all of that.

    And that's why DIVX, or any similar single-source scheme, cannot be allowed to flourish.


    --
  • I wouldn't be the least surprised if Micro$haft and CC/Divx were in cahoots. Anyone know where you could get info like that? Has M$ dumped money into CC/Divx? Or have they just given FUD classes to CC drones?


    Just so you know, DIVX was invented by and is owned by Circuit City (66%) and an L.A. law firm (34%), I can't remember the name of the firm, but one of the partners' last name starts with a "Z". Circuit City is blowing huge wads trying to get this crap accepted (over $100 million last year) and has publicly announced intentions to spend over $400 million more over the coming few years. They're also trying to find another partner to invest in and promote the format.

    DIVX is invented/owned by the slimiest of electronics retailers and a group of L.A. lawyers.
    Gee, there's a real news flash.

    This reminds me of first year WebTV sales. It actually would have been cheaper for WebTV to wrap the boxes in ten dollar bills and give them away than to promote and sell them like they did. I expect CC will find that millions in promotion cannot make a stupid idea like DIVX popular.

  • The Circut City connection is why Divx will ultimately fail. It's a bizarre plan to push a new "standard" that's available through only one retail outlet.

    Especially since (the article mentioned) that Circuit City has raised the price of their DVD players to make Divx seem more competititve. So, they are basically losing sales in order to push this crap.

    Customer - "Why is this DVD player $100 more expensive than at Best Buy?"

    Circuit City Salesman - "Because we have Divx which is better"

    Customer - "Huh?"


    --

  • Maybe I just have too much money, but so what. To me this technology is usefull, if you don't like it, don't buy it. The fact of the matter is that for people like me, renting videos/laserdisks/dvds is a pain in the ass. I frequently rack up late fees far in excess of the divx rental fee. Its a matter of simple math for me, DIVX is cheaper.

    I can see some concern about being stuck with a DIVX player if the company goes belly up. But my worry, although minimal, is really only cost of the machine and that of hassle. For approximately 100 dollars extra, I can get DVD functionality too.

    I also see some advantages in availability of titles. It may very well be that video rental stores that carry DIVX will keep all titles in stock. Given the fact that the disks themselves have no value, and they can be produced very cheaply. It would make more sense for them to buy 100 divx cds of the latest hit at 50 cents or whatever a pop then to risk turning away potential customers.

    While I would prefer a non-propietary solution, I'm willing to accept this 'risk'. They'll never totally corner the market anyways, with other technologies rolling out at a break neck pace, they'll be forced to lower their margins.
  • Can a DVD player in your computer also read regular CD-ROMs? Just wondering..
  • Sure you CAN buy a divx player and only watch DVDs. But that would just be stupid, when you can buy a DVD player for less and get better picture quality.
  • I doubt it will ever give unlimited usage. What I think is more likely is that Divx will go out of bussiness and a lot of angry people will be stuck with worthless players and movies and you will probally see a class action lawsuit against circuit city.
  • Well aparently the license for Silver discs can be transfered to another person if you sell the disc. I'd assume you could transfer it to yourself if you got a new player. This kinda makes me think of another bad point though. Accourding to the article a "silver" disc can only be "owned" by one player at a time. What happens when you get two players in one house? I know that doesn't seem likely now, but look at vcrs. Many people have 1 vcr per tv. Will you need spend $20 for each player in your house? That's just insane.

  • Humor (Score:1)

    by dirty ( 13560 )
    I prefered the comment about your kids eyes bugging out after watching a movie 100times in a row.

    Seriously though, it was an excellent article with no BS at all, atleast as far as I could see. I especially liked the end where they reminded you that they are a competitor of circuit city, and encouraged you to go to circuit city and ask them to respond to the issues they raised. I'm sure they only did this because they knew circuit city couldn't provide decent answers, but it was still nice to see.
  • www.netflix.com - 7 day rentals
  • Not to mention the problems that arise when your home appliances start demanding time on your phone line... "Dear, can you call your friend back later? I want to watch a movie". Modems were bad enough!
  • I recall when you used to go to a video rental
    place and rent movies for a few bucks. then
    after watching them, you'de return them. If you
    happened to rent one and it was fubard, you'de
    just go back to the store and they'd give you a
    new copy. If you liked the film enough, you'de
    buy it. all the same format; rented or bought.

    wait a second. they rent out DVD at my local
    video store. what good is DIVX.

    could you imagine walking into your video store
    and renting a tape with them telling you you
    could keep it (smile) but you'de have to let
    your VCR call their system with your CC# to
    watch it again (frown).

    -Z
  • think about it- it uses mpeg compression, which is not exactly a secret algorithm, and computers have DVD players nowadays. How hard would it be, once you get the key to a DIVX disk one time, to write a program that stores the keys and provides them when the player wants them?

  • Eh? (Score:1)

    by kaisyain ( 15013 )
    For most of us importing region encoded CDs is more relevant than taking them with you on trips. There are a couple of Japanese DVD releases that I would be interested in importing.
  • Interesting. So, lets say it just is keeping records of the playing in RAM, then, at some point it locks up because the RAM is full. Then, a) throw it away or b)you hook it up and get dinged for playing "there's something about mary" 256 times.

    I know that some cable boxes do this, if they can't communicate back upstream they just cache the 'viewing' of a pay per view, then upload it later.
  • I mean, they don't have any intelligent people there. That is why I research before I go to any of those stores.

    And I know that is a generalized stereotypical statement, but I have yet to be proved wrong in the stores I have visited.
  • Hmmm. Well, when DTV (digital TV or HDTV, take your pick) finally does make it to the mainstream in a couple of years (or more?) are you still going to use your analog TV? The fact remains that DVD is still MPEG-2 with an MP3 track (well, Dolby Digital, which is just MP3 with slightly different headers). When digital TVs come out in a few years just get a new DVD player which has a FireWire interface. All DVD players should have FireWire inputs/outputs (by then they should be recordable) and you can hook up to your DTV. DVD will still be MPEG-2, the only change you'll need to make is the interface on the components - the DVDs themselves will still work. It's for this exact reason that I didn't buy a top of the line Sony 7000 for $999. I knew that in a few years I'll upgrade a better player, but DVDs will still work.

    I think by now the electronics industry has learned how much of a PITA it is to change standards within a couple of years - hence the reason that CDs and VideoCDs (bleccchh) still work in DVD players. And making a next generation digital video player should be more or less free (from a hardware/software implementation standpoint).

    At any rate, I'm not worried about my DVDs going out of style any time soon. And I get to enjoy a wonderful picture in the meantime.





    nick
  • You can't bypass the Divx phone call because they use strong encryption on the disks. In theory, if the phone protocol were reverse engineered, we could set up a Linux system to phone in, pretending to be a Divx player, and get the encryption key for *that disk*.

    Then you could play that one disk all you wanted.

    Most likely all Divx disks for a given movie use the same encryption--I can't see them independently burning every single disk. Hence, it would be possible to create a database of Divx encryption keys. Of course, such a database would be in violation of US copyright law. (I think they ran though the provision that makes it illegal to bypass copy protection schemes.)

    Personally, I'm much more interested in seeing Linux able to play ordinary DVDs. Doesn't Alan Cox need a DVD-ROM drive...?
  • ooooo boy... I hear this stupid pro-divx argument all the time... so, for lack of anything else to do today, I am now answering it.

    Yes. Plgging into a phone jack is hard! Here is why:

    Suppose (like me) the nearest phone is in the kitchen.

    Problem 1: After sneaking it around a wall, then another wall, then another wall, then over the back door curtain rod, you find that the cord is about 10 feet too short.

    Problem 2: The phone in the kitchen hangs on the wall.

    Now, let's see you hook your Y-splitter up to that and hang the phone up. First, it looks like a half assed job done buy a Winbloze user ("I can be a programmer! I have a computer at home!")

    I do not own a DIVX (DVD all the way!) but I do own a Dish Network D-VHS deck. It has a kickass caller-id unit in it to show you who is calling while you are watching tv (this totally rocks, btw).

    And yes, there is now a jack right behind the TV - but I do NOT have to have my Dish receiver hooked up... it is totally optional on my part.
  • What? You mean they are not already?????

  • This "product" practically screams for a good hardware cracker to come in and ... um, FIX a few little things. Like those cable TV "converters" you see advertised in the backs of comic magazines...
  • Oddly enough for something written by a competitor, my BS detectors did not go off. Nothing they say is untrue, or even particularly spun. A few points are repeated a few times (but considering the target audience, that's a necessity).

    Also, I am surprised at the humor in it (especially towards the end):
    DVD: If you put in the wrong DVD disc, hit yourself in the forehead and put in the correct one.
  • As much as i'm against any central authority having such control over a media standard, there are a lot of benefits to Divx. How often do you go to Blockbuster and wander around trying to decide what you want to rent? With Divx, you make a shopping trip and buy a dozen movies. Contrary to what the article says and what many people believe, your first 48 hour viewing period does not begin until the first time you play the disc. You take these movies home and then the next time you want to watch a movie, you pick one out, play it, and that's it. So you hardly ever have to go to the video store, and you never have to return a video. Have you ever rented a bunch of movies at once and then something came up or you didn't really feel like watching two movies after all, but you did anyway because you didn't want to return them unwatched?

    Of course, i think that the price is way too high, because there is no way to compete other than coming up with a new format. And when you pay for repeat viewings, the money should count towards a Silver account if you want. In other words: you get Die Hard, planning to watch it once. You pay $5 for the disc, and then $4 for the first viewing. A Silver account would cost $20. Well, you end up watching it five more times. So you've spent $20 on viewings. You should then automatically get unlimited viewing. That way, you'll never say, "Damn, i should have gotten Silver access right away - instead i've paid for individual viewings 7 times!"

    But my real problem with the article was how it exagerrated the problems. If you sell your player, you call them up and they transfer it. No big deal. If you want to watch your movie somewhere else, i'm sure you can just call them up or push a few buttons on your remote, and it'll work at your friend's house.

    And complaining that "Not a lot of movies are out for Divx" is like complaining that Linux doesn't have any applications.
  • I still think a Divx-like system could be extremely convenient, especially if the price you pay in the store is like 25 cents/disc.

    I live in NYC. The nearest video store is six city blocks from my dorm. Also, being a college student, i have weird hours. With Divx, we can decide to watch a movie at 1 am, look through a shoebox filled with movies (maybe have them delivered to your home in bulk via subscription - CDs can be churned out for pennies) and watch it. That's it. The video store wouldn't even be open at that hour, and even if it is, it's a pain in the neck to go out. Hell, we have a hard time getting someone to volunteer to go downstairs to pick up the pizza from the delivery boy.

    Video on demand, when it finally arrives, will revolutionize the couch potato world. (whether you think it's good or bad that it's easy for people to watch the drivel from Hollywood is another argument.. the relevant part is that people DO spend a lot of time doing it) Divx is the most practical approximation of video on demand right now.

    Like i said, it's not perfect and i really don't like the centrality of it, but it doesn't deserve the hell it's been getting, and a slightly-different-yet-still-Divx-like format could be outstanding.
  • your post is pure FUD

    You might as well have just said, "Oh yeah? Well YOU'RE pure FUD!" - it's meaningless name calling. There is no fear or doubt in my post. I suppose i'm a little uncertain, but i'm not trying to spread it.

    On the other hand, let me try and illustrate why i think a lot of you are using FUD arguments. You said:

    I can rent DVDs at any of several Hollywood video and Blockbuster outlets in my town, as well as one of the local smaller chains, and I can buy them at any number of places, even including Wal-Mart if I so choose! I could only get DivX at... Circuit City.

    That's like saying, "I can get Windows software from (list tens of thousands of software companies).. I could only get Linux software from (list a few dozen companies)" or "I can get Windows software from CompUSA, Computer City, Electronics Boutique..." (Of course, nowadays Linux is making inroads, just like it's possible that Divx will make inroads into other big-name stores)

    Finally, I have two DVD players -- one a standalone DVD player in my living room, the other a PC with a DVD-ROM drive whose output is hooked up to a TV in my bedroom. Can't watch DivX on the PC, can I?

    Again, of course third-party support is going to be hard to come by at first. I could say, "I have three music systems - my computer, my discman, and my hi-fi. I can play CDs on all three of them. But i can only play MP3s on my computer. This new format doesn't work with my old equipment, so it sucks."

    Saying "Don't use the new thing because nobody else supports it!" is FUD, period. It's one of the pillars of FUD. Of course any new underdog is going to have trouble getting support. I'm sure you all know the chicken-and-egg problem with user base and support.
  • You work at Circuit City, don't you?

    I knew it was a matter of time before someone accused me of this. Jesus, people. I'm just saying that maybe one of your arguments doesn't hold water and that while Divx has its problems, there are a lot of good ideas there.

    _nobody_ likes DIVX

    FUD, FUD, FUD. If you have a genuine logical counterargument to add, say it. But don't try to say, "You hold an unpopular opinion, therefore it's wrong."

    Ever see a Circuit City open at 11 PM?

    As i was saying, the whole point is that you don't HAVE to go to Circuit City at 11 PM when you want a movie - you can have a whole bunch of unseen movies sitting around, and just pick one. You don't even have to get off the couch.
  • "Anyone remembers the un-duplicatable (sp?) playstation discs ?? And the soon-after-release mod chips ?? Well. They'll do the same for Divx... "

    Sony also managed to get mod chips declared illiegal to sell in the US. I suspect Divx will do the same if a similar technology comes along for their players.

  • Don't forget that had he done this, he would have been paying an up-front rental cost on the discs for the first 48 hours. So he would have effectively had to rent each movie twice in order to see it once (once when buying it, once again later when he's ready to watch it).
  • I just won't shop at Circuit City anymore because of Divx. No matter what, I will not enter a Circuit City retail outlet. I thought they sucked enough before, now they're trying to push this Divx crap on us? I'd do much better at Best Buy or Radio Shack or whatever.

    BTW, those Circuit City commercials are just plain idiotic. Especially when they were trying to push Divx during the Super Bowl. They didn't mention a damn thing about how you are billed when you view a Divx disc each time. They just smiled and advertised this "DVD player with Divx" for only $399! (I'm not sure of the actual price, but I'm guessing it was that.)

    Boycott Circuit City until they get rid of Divx forever. Just go to Radio Shack or Best Buy...


  • They forgot to mention that when the company doing
    the backend stuff goes out of business, your disks are worthless. Guess you also can't watch them if the authentication stuff suffers from the /. effect, your local telco switches are overloaded when you pop in a disk, you're phone is out of order....

  • Well. I seem to have read earlier on that it did not require dialing out to play a particular disc, and that it only dialed out every 2 weeks...
    Now, what if the 2nd week never come ? And also, it was said that disc played history was stored in a chip, which means erasable. (It cannot possibly store all of the information forever.) I heard that +5v well placed could work wonder on said chips.
    DivX will be and already is a fiasco, because people will work around it with so much ease. It's been like this forever, and I doubt it will ever change. (Anyone remembers the un-duplicatable (sp?) playstation discs ?? And the soon-after-release mod chips ?? Well. They'll do the same for Divx...
    'Nuff said.

    The Deal is : I dont speak for them, they dont speak for me. I dont get paid well enough to speak for them anyways.

    Sun Tzu must have been running Linux...
    - Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him. (Sun Tzu, The art of war)

  • I returned a three year old laptop for service, and ended up walking away with a brand new one--that is what I call service
  • Remember all those worthless AOL and MSN CD-ROMs? Now we'll have to deal with a bunch of left-over DIVXs that were worth viewing once, then get piled up in a local landfill.
  • You are correct. DVD gives you a very nice picture, but it is still an NTSC (or PAL, if you buy it in Europe) picture. This means 525 interlaced lines. There are multiple HDTV standards that have been agreed upon but they are all still duking it out amongst themselves, something that you will notice in 2-4 years (CBS's standard vs. NBC's standard, etc.) They are:

    1080I: This is the longest talked about format, using 1080 lines interlaced.

    720P: This is a competing format, using only 720 lines, but displayed progressively, like a computer monitor, giving you essentially double the resolution of an interlaced screen.

    480P: This is a sort of intermediate format, and is the exact thing as playing a 640x480 video clip on a computer screen. This is not a high resolution for computer people, but because it is progressive it is a substantial improvement over standerd NTSC. To the average viewer, BTW, many people can not tell the difference between the three formats at a glance, though the difference between any of them and NTSC is very clear.


    As to your question about saving money with Divx, HDTV has started being broadcast on the big networks, but almost nobody (even some of the broadcasting stations!) can see it so far. Full (or even 1/4) HDTV broadcasting will not happen for at least 1 year, and HDTV sets are expected to sell very slowly. (Though I hypothesize that HDTV tuner cards on computers with big monitors and hi-res video cards will be quick to catch on.) I imagine that anyone buying a DVD player at this time will want to buy a new player of some type by the time that such a consumer player (of which there are none right now) are availible. And further, even if you DID expect to buy an HDTV set and player in the nexty year, Divx players are said to cost $100 MORE than a DVD player, and most people, upon buying a disc, will be watching it at least four times, thus making DVD on par with, if not cheaper than, Divx.

    Bottom line: HDTV is still a ways off and Divx still ain't worth it.

    Will
  • I don't think there is a single DVD-ROM player on the market now that doesn't play CD-R. Only the very first generation of DVDs (I didn't even know it existed then) don't. I bought my "Creative Lab" DVD player over a year ago, and it already did play DVD .....
  • Is there a single set-top DVD player that does read CD-Rs? And if so, why would you want to???
    I fail to understand what you would do with a CD-R in a DVD-player if they could read it... Because you can't duplicate a DVD on CD-Rs anyway. (sorry). Maybe you can expand on that.

    If you're talking about playing audio cd (and CDRs) on your DVD player, I don't see that as really important since I suspect most people that own a DVD player already own "regular" CD players, which - as I understand it - will do a much better job at playing music anyway. (and will give you th e 100 disc crousel, etc...)
  • AFAIK, the only person I know who "bought" a DIVX player had a circuit city gift certificate for a large amount and the rep claimed that they didn't have any non-divx crippled players.

    but on free will, nobody.

  • This is very reminiscent of the infamous WebTV, a device which sucks up the two greatest points of contention in a "typical American household", the TV and the phone at the same time. I imagine there are several parents of teenagers who are at home wondering why their movies won't play.
  • why a circuit shitty employee of course.

    or a non-techie who doesn't have a best buy in town, as the case would have it.

  • Last I heard, Disney still hadn't decided to release it's theatrical animation on DVD -- just direct-to-video and live-action features. Has this changed? If so, I'll be buying a DVD sooner than later.
  • But as the article says, most Divix discs are feature-poor - offering only the Pan&Scan version of the movie, no extras. I wouldn't pay a nickel for them, much less $4.95, even if I could watch it forever!

    That combined with the limited number of Divix only movies, yields little gain to be had in cracking the machines.

  • "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"

    not

    "Linux News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters relating to Linux"

  • Eh? (Score:1)

    by maw ( 25860 )
    Well, I know two people who have bought DVD drives. One of them travels to Germany and Egypt every other month or so. I don't remember whether Germany and Egypt are in the same zone or not, but even having two zones to deal with is two zones too many, especially since he probably would try to legitimately buy a DVD in Germany and be ticked off when it didn't work.
  • It's like a tax for stupid people. We need more things like this, if you're stupid, you not only get a crappy product, you pay extra too! Look how well it's worked for the software industry.
  • I went into my friendly neighborhood Circuit City the other day (comparison shopping to replace my dying TV) and was immediately assaulted by a CC drone.

    He proceeded to throw FUD, BS, and outright lies at me trying to get me to buy into Divx (I'd rather be forced to watch my DVDs on a 14-inch monitor).

    I wouldn't be the least surprised if Micro$haft and CC/Divx were in cahoots. Anyone know where you could get info like that? Has M$ dumped money into CC/Divx? Or have they just given FUD classes to CC drones?



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