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Technology

HP49G is a reality 173

Posted by Hemos from the i-can-program-more-test-answers dept.
gleam writes "HP announced, fairly quietly, a new calculator--the HP49G. It is essentially an upgrade to the 48G, with a higher contrast screen at the same resolution and the same processor but a much better OS. It will also have 512kb ram, 1mb flash system rom, and 1mb user ROM. Check out the full specs. "
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HP49G is a reality More

HP49G is a reality

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  • So you're saying that you prefer your 89 over a calculator you've never used?

    I used to think that the TI's were better... but after you use an HP you will find that doing math on the stack is so much nicer. I hate it when I have to borrow a calculator and it's not RPN.

    Seriously, Here at Georgia Tech, and from what my Grandfather tells me (a Civil Engineer at UIUC) very few people use non-hp calculators. Doing math on the stack is just that useful.

    And, if you don't get used to the stack, you can always type in the equation in double-quotes and hit eval.

  • No.
    1. The hardware outside the processor is different. The bank-switching of memory, for instance, is totally changed.
    2. The 48 doesn't have flash memory.
  • This comment is pretty much dead on. I used to teach a lot of college-level math back when I was a grad student -- diff eqns, calc, whatever. Very few of the problems I assigned my students could be done more easily with an HP calculator. On the other hand, for more applied disciplines, like physics, chem, engineering, and so on, you will find an RPN calculator invaluable!

    Why RPN? Well, others have addressed this question, too, but from my perspective it does a couple things for you: (1) it is a faster, more compact way of keying in a problem, and (2) once you "get it" you will think about the formulae in more logical ways. For some reason, using RPN on a calculator helps you do calculations in your head better, too. Probably has to do with keeping the distributive law foremost in your mind.

    Although a good calculator is invaluable for the sciences outside of math, for math itself you might want to consider something like Mathematica, MatLab, etc. I use these programs professionally now, and they are really excellent. Forgive my pedantry in reminding you to *learn* the material, too. it can be tempting to let Mathematica do your Calc homework for you. That will put you at a terrible disadvantage in later classes. In math, one learns very little from studying for tests, and a lot from making mistakes on homework.

  • I prefer to think of it as obsessiveness on the part of HP. Unlike the TI's, a lot of the functions (like plotting, solving, or looking up equation libraries) were accessed by GUI menus...and that probably was overkill. It looked moderately attractive, but it really slowed performance.

    With respect to plotting, which was terribly slower in comparison to the TI's, the HP was set to a bizarrely detailed plot by default, i.e. the amount of points it would calculate before plotting was excessive. Sure the plots were more exact, but unless you changed the default, things went pretty slowly.

    But despite the slowness, the little group of people at my high school who owned 48's noted that it seemed like it just took longer for TI owners to do things. The feature set simply was not there, neither was RPN, which has to be experienced, at length, to be appreciated.

  • If you're planning to wait a few months to believe this, that's fine. I've talked to developers and to users of the units, both at OpenHP and as beta testers, all trustworthy sources, and they assure me the units are real.

    Are you such a Francophobiac that you don't trust anything released in France? This isn't meant to be a personal flame, and, in fact, this is more a response to comp.sys.hp48 users who are becoming as irrational as alt.conspiracy.

    What are the problems with the images? I was aware of no problems with sam's images (the 15 I linked to in a comment), and they seem quite real. If you're talking about Benoit Darcy's scan with the screen drawn over, that is an isolated case and Benoit has (I've heard) been reprimanded by HP.

    HP needs to develop a strong userbase again...just because you havent left the scene doesn't mean it is not becoming stagnant. The HP49G should help them build that userbase up again. I also bet that once you use one of the units, you'll purchase one as well...color and IR be damned.

    -gleam
  • RPN is great for when you are doing real work. You get intermedite answers along the way without having to hit the = key all the time.

    (2+4)-((5+9)/(7+3)

    2 enter
    4 + displays 6 (write down intermedite answer)
    5 enter
    9 + display 14 (write down intermedite answer)
    7 enter
    3 + diplays 10 (write down intermedite answer)
    / diplays 1.4
    - displays 4.6 (answer looks reasonable, keep it)
    If it looks wrong, start with the intermediate answers, and see which one was wrong.

    Basic example but with a damn TI you make mistakes with all those brackets
  • Did anybody else but me notice the supposed disappearance of the equation library in the HP49? Two of us laughed when the TI users in our class started programming their Physics equations before the Physics AP C exam.

    Yay HP!
  • I must have crashed my old hp48 thousands of times. then again, I used to program it in assembler and system RPL, and these things weren't particularily well documented at the time...
  • The thought never occured to me. I thought that it had only a foot range (I never used mine). I guess that means that the only ones with IR ports now are the cheaters.

    Is there a way that the 48G OS can be upgraded to the new 49 OS (maybe a rom replacement?).

    Also, is there schematics available for the 48 series calculator?

  • Get something cheap (Score:3)

    by khslinky ( 35877 ) on Sunday May 23, 1999 @11:23AM (#1882757)
    I don't know what you mean by "math oriented stuff", but I'm a math major, and I can't remember the last time I used a calculator in a class. I keep a TI-36 around just in case but rarely use it.

    If you're planning to go into a more applied field, like engineering, you'll get more use out of an expensive calculator than I have. But in this case, I would still recommend getting a cheap scientific calculator and perhaps investing in some sort of symbolic manipulation software (like Mathematica, Maple, Derive, Matlab, I don't know what else might be out there) when you head off to college. The student prices on these are fairly reasonable (only slightly more than a TI-92) and they may save you from having to trek up to the computer lab every weekend. Find out what your school/department uses before you make such a purchase of course.
  • To be honest, it's more a function of "Why is HP the only one dumb enough to make RPN calcs?", since RPN (as evidenced by HPs decision to make the 49G algebraic factory default) does not lend itself nicely to some of the less-advanced and less-motivated high school, junior high, and elementary students.

    Thus, RPN units don't sell nearly as well as algebraic units (look at TI vs HP when it comes to money flowing to the calculator division).. hence the RPN/Algebraic/Arithmetic number entry options on the 49G.

    -gleam
  • Just a minor note - Z-Shell isn't necessary anymore. The Z-Shell was necessary to do asm programming on the TI-85, which didn't support it, but the TI-86 supports asm programs natively, without any shells or workarounds.

  • Re:My Dad used a slide ruler. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Slide rules aren't manufactured any more, but you can find used ones for sale for collectors on the web.
  • You're totally right!

    The Infrared was the _BEST_ feature the HP48 had, and the only real reason to purchase it instead of a slightly less powerful but much easier to use TI-92.

    Some could say that the fact that there is a lot more of software for the HP than for the TI is another reason to buy it, but I think that if the HP software was so widespread was mainly because of the infrared link, wich made it extremely easy to get or give to your friends.

    It's a pity they removed it. This looked like a great upgrade. Specially that it does not use the RPN by default, which many people do not like.

    Also, why did they take so long to make a newer version? When it was out it was the best calculator you could possibly buy, but now the competitors like TI or Casio do really great machines. I'm not sure this will be powerful enough to beat them...

    Cheers,

    Angel
  • I was thinking this exact same thing - why would I buy a 49g when I can get Palm pilot. Has anyone used Palm pilots for scientific/graphing and how does it compare to regular calculators (i.e. 48g)??
  • Know what's sick? I'm done with Calculus forever (knock on wood)... Yet I kinda want one of these 49Gs... And What will the 49GX have? :)
  • Here is a working emulator for HP49. It's only Alpha though, and for windows95/NT. It works really well.

    http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~olepe/emulator .zip [stud.ntnu.no]

    A new "skin" can be downloaded from:
    http://www.geocities.c om/SiliconValley/Byte/2617/emu49sp.zip [geocities.com]




  • I remember my first program was on a calculator with 105 bytes of memory and numeric only display (row of 12 numbers plus mantissa). This thing flashes back to 1988, it was a top-of-the-art URSS
    make model MK-61. It didn't have any storage device, once you turned it off, you will have to type your program again. Programming was in machine codes only.

    Even on that calculator we had kewl games. They had to stretch your imagination, and interprete something like 124.5 as your current attitude on the Moon. Those who never tried won't understand.

    I wish I had such a baby like HP-49 or even my current TI-83. Do I use now kewl TI-83? No. If I had it back to 1988 I would made really cool visual games, but not now. I have laptop, desctop, a computer in every place I go. Many have Pilots and other devices. Besides I have calculator in watches. Who is gonna pay $100 for calculator if you could get 486 or even 586 (not Pentium) for that price? The whole new computer would cost you less then $500 these days, what's the point to have super-duper programming RAM and other stuff like OS in a calculator? These days, those advanced calculators are creatures of the past, almost extinct. New hand-held devices will beat the rest of crap out of that market. You will be paying money for something you probably won't use at all. These devices probably cost more to HP to develop than they give 'em back. In practice this means, that losses for this product are offset by others (more popular), like over=priced HP WinCE devices.

    p.s. I wish I had such a baby in school.

    AtW,
    http://www.investigatio.com [investigatio.com]
  • The Saturn processor used in HPs calculators is a
    special chip designed by HP for use in their
    calculators.
  • RPM is *way* better than Forth. RPM is strongly typed, dynamic, and object-based (but not object oriented, thank Zoinx). can't beat that!
  • Who is gonna pay $100 for calculator if you could get 486 or even 586 (not Pentium) for that...

    Calculators are simple tools...

    Because calculators are small and can fit in a pocket to go anywhere. They are rugged, designed to do a job of crunching numbers, do it well, and do it for many months or years on one set of batteries. Try doing that on a WinCE color pocket heater (if it can fit.)

    The HP calcs I have are older. One was made in 1975. Good as new and have a nice clicking keyboard that experienced fingers use to avoid making mistakes. They survive abuse. They will always do advanced arithmatic and never will be outdated unless they break.

    That is why I like dedicated calculators for numerical jobs rather than an all purpose computer. I never had a calculator break. Even the old card reading LED display HP's still work. They will still fit in a pocket and do the same engineering jobs. A person could be really attatched to an old calculator. Especially when they don't crash or deliver wrong numbers.
  • blue velvet...
    poor lighting...
    awkward yet seductively-posed subjects..

    mmmmm.. amateur calculator porn...
  • Okay, that kicks ass, I'm gonna buy one right away now. :)

    FunOne
    God Kills.
    FunOne
  • I understand algebra ok, calculus enough to get the job done, but differential equations I could not fathom period. So I can imagine a calculator showing me algebra, but can it show me how to solve diffys??
  • btw, I liked the expandable module cards on the GX. To me (a ME) that was a must.
    ^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~~^~
  • We used circular slide rules to race a Univac 1182 to a solution for solid analytic geometry problems; polar calculus, orbital dynamics, that kind of stuff. Came out about 50-50 on the whole.

    We took actuarial exams w/o 4-function calulators and pretty much had to do log problems from the a-angle tables in our heads.

    HP ran an add for the 41-C about how it could land the space shuttle because it had more compute power than the AP-101 CPU's on board
  • According to the article, the 49G is 10 to 100 times as fast as the 48G because all the code has been rewritten. They also noted a much improved symbolic math library.
  • I'm embarrased to say I'm only 36 and I know how to use a slide rule!

    (Being in the army where some things required the use of a slide rule helped a little, but I was taught how to use them when I was young.)
  • I buy HP calculators for the quality.

    In 15 years, my wife has gone through several TI calculators, each one suffering some type of physical failure. (She takes very good care of them, too)

    In the same time, I've had two HP calculators, and the first one (HP 11c) still has a revered position on my desk. I only bought the HP 48 because I wanted base-number conversions. All this, and I'm quite hard on them. They've been dropped, bounced around in the saddlebags of my motorcycle, spilled on, and all other manners of abuse. The only time they have failed to work is when I ran the batteries dead.

    I'll take an HP over TI any day.
  • The Saturn processor used in HPs calculators is a special chip designed by HP for use in their calculators.
  • I actually have a pocket abacus... it's incredibly novel to break out the abacus while everyone else is reaching for their high-end TI/HP (of course I owned a calculator too... but anybody who has ever had a college math class that had the 'scientific calculator or less' rule knows that you don't need them 90% of the time)
  • Finally.... The last OS and programming environment in the 48 was horrible... It was extrememly difficult to be productive with that backward programming environment.
  • IR port for cheating? Noone I know has built that IR-booster. But we all DID use the port to exchange all those 50k textfiles with sometimes integral copies of important chapters of the textbook. :)
  • I'll admit the TIs are faster than the 48s (we'll see on the 49s), but I could never live with a calculator that doesn't do RPN. Every time I have to use a TI (helping a friend and I don't have my calc, etc), I always screw up because I'm trying to do RPN. Once you get the hang of RPN, all else seems slow and impossible (imo, of course.. :)
  • I remember having this calculator in high school and using it for anything but math. I especially enjoyed borrowing one of the remote controls from my school (they were all the same brand panasonics i believe) and duplicating the commands to my calculator. Then right in the middle of my teacher's lecture the tv would miraculously power up... Aaah those were the days. Of course my teacher went insane >:)
    I also made quite an impression when i showed everyone the image of claudia schiffer that someone had coded. Man that looked really good. It was even cooler when my friend showed off pong (or was it arkanoid? one of those...) on his TI and I proudly showed him Mortal Kombat on my HP. He was nothing short of speechless. I think his reply was, "that's not a calculator, it's a computer!"
    I can't believe they yanked IR out of the 49G's, I thought that it was the best part of the HP48gx. Well that, and pretending to use the calculator for simple math while i was actually checking formulas or the periodic table for a hand during tests :)
    Other than that the 49G looks really sweet. Looks like I'm gonna have to save up a bit and get me one of those puppies.

    In case some of you are wondering where i got all these programs, do a search for "HP48" on any search engine. You'd be surprised how many hits show up. Although at the time I got most of mine at hpcvbbs.corvallis.hp.com (It was something of that sort, I don't remember though and that doesn't seem to be right).
  • Actually, it is quite a bit faster (I've heard from users). The new OS (based on metakernel, by one of the new designers before HP bought him) has all new choose and input methods.. so every menu is faster. It does 6 frames per second of 3d graphing, and allows real-time manipulation of 3d graphs. Wow.
  • I *did* crash my '48 a couple of times. Once I even had to press the reset button (the one on the bottom...)

  • If the processor is the same, is it possible to flash-update a 48G with the new OS? If so, is it legal to do so?

  • 2 = 4 + 5 = + 9 7 = 3 / -

    should be

    2 = 4 + 5 = 9 + 7 = 3 / -

  • RPN (Reverse Polish Notation) is nore technically known as Postfix notation. Prefix notation (adding 3 and 4 would be + 3 4 ) was invented by (Can't remember the name here), but here WAS a Polish Mathmatician. It picked up the name Polish Notation, so therefore Postfix is RPN.
    If I remember right, I learned this one in the Book "Starting Forth"
  • I stand corrected. Still, it is a lengthy and difficult process if you're the type of person who needs to cheat with your HP48G :)

    Infrared in the 49 would be great, but at least it comes with a transfer cable.. still, all those remote control programs are useless now.

    I knew a kid once who had trained his hp48 to mimic the remote controls on some of the Macintoshes in our library. A friend of mine was sitting at the computer and all of a sudden *blip* it went off. He looked around and there behind him was the other kid, laughing and holding his calculator.

    Oh well...I can live without IR for all the functions that seem to be added and updated :)

    -gleam
  • There are actually two more buttons on the 49.. someone counted. Also, the buttons are bigger and spaced slightly farther apart. But the whole unit still fits in a 48 soft case.. the case has been well engineered, it seems.

    -gleam
  • It isn't more efficient for simple things like 2+2 or 2 2+. However, for more complex arithemetic, stuff involving parentheses, it is far more efficient.

    e.g. (7+3)/((5*2)+(3/4))

    you would do 7 4 + 5 2 * 3 4 / + /
    which is 11 keystrokes compared to 19, almost half the number!

    As you can see, as the math you're doing becomes more complex RPN becomes more and more efficient...and this is where the HP truly shines.

    -gleam
  • I agree that calculators should not be the main focus of reliance for mathematics students. However, I think that math without calculators is just as destructive. In my AP Calc class, we didn't really use calculators for all that much. However, use of a calculator like the TI-89 (which I use) on the AP does NOT give the user any advantage over someone who uses another calculator. That is simply because the test is made so that all people will have an equal opportunity to answer questions. They really changed the way in which they asked questions on this test, so almost no direct computation with a TI-89 or other calc could be used.

    I am dissappointed with my teacher this year, though. He was very opposed to the use of calculators to do anything. I think it is importatnt to learn concepts and understand where formulas and ideas came from and how to derive them, but I think that never using a calculator is a mistake. In my class, we spent well over two months just learning different methods of integration, something I thought was a near complete waste of time, since it is nearly impossible to learn ALL methods of integration, and most integration we did had no real-world applications. It's somewhat similar to learning multiplication. Many teachers would argue that it is important to do multiplication without a calculator--and I agree. But it is unrealistic to try to do all multiplication without a calculator--it's just a waste of time and is not teaching the student any concept.
  • the main reason the HP48 was so slow is that most of the high-level internal code was written in system-RPN, which means many levels of indirection before it would reach assembly. they claim to have rewritten a lot of it in assembly for the hp49, which I think is a bit of a bad move... I'd much rather they'd optimized their system-RPN! there was one real easy way to optimize it from what the hp48 did: store the length of all composite objects (such as programs and sub-programs) next to their prolog, instead of calculating it on the fly by recursive descent.
  • just picking a small nit: it's SysRPL, not SysRPN

    RPN = Reverse Polish Notation
    RPL = Reverse Polish LISP
  • I love the case design of the HP28C (and S
    if I had that new of a calculator). Its still being used by HP on their financial calculator. Is great because you don't need an external case and there is no shift button to get to the letters.
  • NO infrared??? I can't believe that... that was the best thing about the 48.... It would have been interesting to see if you could make a failover cluster between the two... (of course, when was the last time you saw a calculator crash?)...
    Then again, when was the last time you saw a calculator running a microsoft operating system??
  • Don't worry. I'm just 27, and if I have to I can
    get along with a slide rule. I do prefer my
    HP48GX for real-world applications. I learned how
    to use a slide rule and logarithm tables when I
    was 12; don't know why, though.

  • Is it really the new hp? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Followers of comp.sys.hp48 are not convinced that this "hp49" is the real thing. There are problems with the images.
    I'll believe when hp.com/calculators shows it as part of the official product line.

    HP48GX
  • I will! well ... I'm really hoping they come out with a version of the 49 that can do IR; that came in handy a lot for transferring stuff with friends (no, not during tests.. :) I don't have a need for a handheld computer, cause I never would use it for scheduling (I'd forget to actually USE the darn thing) and when I want to do real computing, I've got my computer at home. I just hope the rubber keys feel right ......
  • The problem with today's PCs is that they are not allowed at most tests, while the 49g has been designed for that (hence the lack of an IR port).
    And the HP calculators are a great lot cheaper, too.

    Do you really think college students need to run thousands of already written applications ? They only need to do maths, physics, and such stuff. And such stuff has not become harder today than 3 years ago. And anyway, there are already thousands of software available for the hp48, and the 49g will be compatible with most of them.

    I think the Calculator division of HP (which has been closed for 3 years) needed this to gain back a large user base. Let's hope the real beast is yet to come .. :)

    --
    Samuel Hocevar
    Author of the horrible hp49g pictures :)

  • HP48GX (Score:3)

    by / ( 33804 ) on Saturday May 22, 1999 @08:37PM (#1882821)
    After the 49G comes out, the price on a 48GX should go down a bit. Splurge on a ramcard (I have a 4meg one. That's right: four megabytes of memory in my calculator. It cost me a couple hundred deutchmarks plus shipping to the us). It really makes all the difference. Symbolic algebra (ALG48) and calculus (ERABLE), not to mention the billion other useful programs you can drop into it. And if you're hoping to do physics or engineering, don't go with anything less than an HP. Once you go reverse polish, there's no turning back. Once you use an infinite level stack, there's no going back. For software, check out hpcalc.org [hpcalc.org]. There are several chess clocks here [hpcalc.org]. Don't even get me started on the number of games for this thing (zelda, dune, civilization...). And if nothing else, comp.sci.hp48 has much more eloquent discussion than you'll find in any of the ti groups.
  • Well, the fact that this does complex math and PalmPilot/WinCE doesn't creates quite a large market. I know you could add some type of math software to a pocket computer but I would be quite difficult to input math commands quickly. I've become so used to using RPN on my 28S and 48GX that I don't even need to think about it anymore. And now I have something I can actually graph with too! Graphing was so horrid with the 48 with its slowass boxes and scrolling. How i never have to pick up a TI again.

    Noehre
    TI IS DEAD. LONG LIVE RPN

  • You miss several important points, some for you, others against:

    Math is not Arithmatic. Mathamatitions do not spend all day adding subtracting, multipling or dividing. They spend their time manipulating symbols, and only touch real numbers if they need to. Enginneers use the numbers, but they do all the hard math work first, and then the arithmatic.

    I can do most simple addition in my head faster then I can enter it into any calculator, including my super fast hp48gx. When you consider keyboarding errors things need to get complex before the calculator is faster then me. And for doing the symbolic manipulation I'm faster than the calculator if it can even get the answer.

    I found that I used few of the features of my hp48Gx, but I still consider it worth it for engineering, especcially the freshmen general physics that you should take. For the higher level classes I found the calculator at best slightly faster in only a few cases.

    So in conclusion, you are right, learn to do the arithmatic in your head fast for the easy parts, but when the going gets tough (pi*e^-2/7-56*22.248 which is what you may get after substituting valuse for the variables) know you could do it by hand while you pull out the calculator.

    Don't rely on the calculator for everything. I remember one girl who accuayy raised her hand to ask about one step in a long proff, and the answer was "2+2=4". Seriously, it wasn't that she was dumb, but rather she didn't think about 2ac+2ac = 4ac (guess what the derivation was, anyone with algrebra should know as this is the only part of high school algebra you are likley to need for all techenical classes throughout college)

  • It also does math the same way Forth and (I think) Lisp does. Which is also the way computers do math at machine level. Basically, you put the numbers on the stack and type an operator to do math on them. Lets say you want to add 3 and 5. Type 3 then 5 and the stack looks like this.

    5
    3

    Then type + and:

    +
    5
    3

    The plus adds the 5 and the 3 and replaces them with the result:

    8

    (I was interested in Forth a while back so I read up on this stuff. It was pretty interesting.)

    --

  • The Point?
    Simple - Picture it's 1969, and memory is expensive, and programming is HARD. Think of which is easier to make a program interpreter for, RPN or algebraic notation. Yep, RPN, no need for recursion etc.

    Now, you get a bunch of loyal users, who really LIKE this notation, while your main competitor hard the algebraic market sown up (HP did try making one - it flopped)

    What would YOU do?

  • I tried HP, TI's are better. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    HP's are way too slow. That and the programming is ridiculous. I think this does something to improve that. I tried the 48G in high school and the TI-85. Even though the 48G was more hackable (The TI is now is more hackable thanks to Z-Shell) I still think the TI is much better for doing actual math. If you need symbolic stuff than the TI-92 can't be beat, even though it is a pain to carry around, but the 48G felt to bloated and poorly implemented.
  • my HP28S still rules over all the calculators i've ever worked with (including my brother's 48G)
    After 10+ years of calculating and falling out of my backpack and pockets, it's still kicking even though the battery cover is tenuously held on by tape. I've been tempted to upgrade to a 48GX but I prefer the clamshell design of my 28S. I'll keep using it until it dies at which point i'll be screwed...
  • You definitely have a point with the exam allowance.

    However, the price is another issue: when you already have a handheld PC (I'm not even talking about PDAs), then your calculator comes for free, it is not an additional cost.

    I don't think that college students need to run thousands of already written apps. I just say that given the choice, they will choose the platform that has the best potential. Don't tell me that if you could have played quake on a handheld PC while in preparatory classes, you would have bought a HP48. The thing is that at that time, you had no choice. Today, you have it.

    Moreover, a lot of PC apps completely obsolete HP apps: do I need to mention mathematica?

    And I disagree with you when you say that the 49 will be software compatible with the 48: all cool apps are written in asm or in external, and it is my understanding that the memory layout and entry points have changed between the 48 and the 49.

    We will see. But IMHO, the 49 will be to the student world what "The Phantom Menace" is to the whole world: a good thing, not a revolutionary one.

    --
    Regis "HPReg" Duchesne
  • Damn. Back in my day, we were allowed to take exams with the aid of a graphite loaded wooden instrument and thin sheets of fiberous wooden pulp. No electronic devices allowed. We never had it this easy back then. Exams were grueling with the beads of sweat dripping and smearing the paper during the hour or two allowed in attempts to finish.

    The world has it too easy these days. I guess teachers have come to realize when you are on the job, a calculator will sport your desk anyways, so why not?

  • Re:TI v. HP (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    The TI has 2 things going for it: faster CPU and shorter learning curve. However, if you're planning to go into engineering or one of the more mathematical sciences, an HP is really worth it. Once you learn to use RPN well, it is a heck of a lot faster for simple calculations than infix (the notation TIs and most other calculators use). I switched from TI to HP in 9th grade (I'm now finishing my sophomore year at MIT), and I'm really glad I switched.

    Basically, with a stack-based machine, it keeps the results from all past calculations for you. If you want to add one to another, it's really fast and intuitive. On a TI, you need to use the ackward memory mechanism. Because of that, especially in physics-style calculations, the HP is much faster to use. It's also much easier to make a mistake on a TI, since you don't see the results to every subcalculation (and cannot check for whether they seem realistic).

    The HP has a much more powerful programming language, but it's also much more difficult to use. There are C cross-compilers, but I don't know how good they are. There is a slew of non-math software for the HP (3d games, personal information managers, calendars, programs to make the IR port into a remote control, etc). I haven't seen that much for the TI, but I haven't looked around in a couple of years.

    I'd strongly recommend an HP, primarily for the UI. You can get an HP48G in the $100 range right now.

    -pmitros @ [SPAM].mit.edu
  • a minor note: hpcvbbs.corballis.hp.com was HPs server for programs when the corvallis area was still open. Since then, all calculator operations have been moved to australia, where Jean-Yves Avenard has taken over, and has produced this hunk of good-looking machinery.

    Now, the best source of HP programs on the net is, definitively, www.hpcalc.org [hpcalc.org], which is speedy and well designed. The webmaster even plans to port as many 48G programs to the 49G when it comes out as he possibly can, so look forward to a large and quickly growing database of 49 programs when it is released.

    Happy program hunting!

    -gleam
  • Yeah that's been one of the main gripes of people who don't like the 49G. I've heard again and again how much people used the equation library, but to be honest, I think it is used less than they remember.

    Sure it's handy to have around, but for that purpose 49 users should just use part of their 1mb user ram to put in an ML equation library that is user-controlled, so they can add any equations they want. (One of the functions most desired in the next HP, before the 49 was announced.)

    So, I think after the 49 comes out there will be a few new equation libraries programs on the scene, and soon after that some actual equations to fill those libraries.

    -gleam
  • Well, let's try the old example again "(2+4)-((5+9)/(7+3)"... I will use = for Enter on RPN

    RPN: 2 = 4 + 5 = + 9 7 = 3 / - (13 keystrokes, and once you're used to RPN [about two days] you'll never get the entry order wrong.)

    Algebraic entry: ( 2 + 4 ) - ( ( 5 + 9 ) / ( 7 + 3 ) ) = (20 keystrokes, and you better hope you got the parenthesis right.)

    Four function calculator entry: 7 + 3 = (write down answer) 5 + 9 = / 1 0 (ten, the answer you wrote down) = (write this down) 2 + 4 = - 1 . 4 (1.4, the answer to the division) = (21 keystrokes, plus the written down numbers, plus the completely counterintuitive entry method.)

    Which do you think is easier?

  • The purpose of it all is to accomplish a task. If RPN floats your boat, use an HP. If you're more of an algebraic dude, get a TI.
    The last thing we need is an HP/TI holy war. It's a calculator, not a religion.

    Just remember, friends don't let friends use Casios.
  • So should I get the HP to replace my aging 48S? Or should I get a PalmPilot and some kick-ass math program for it? Presumably the Palm would be better if the calculator were implemented really well. How does its processor compare? When are the colour ones coming out? bc and GnuPlot on PalmLinux would be a good start, but you know what I want... :)
  • Most of my friends at college (a few years back) used to make small null modem cables to transfer stuff between their HP48's, as the serial connection was faster than the IR...
    One friend used a serial cable to a tiny TNC (radio modem) and handheld radio in his backpack, so he could play with packet radio during class.

    I still use my HP28S at work all the time... It's also good for doing taxes... just set a variable for each line, and you can then do: LINE1+LINE4 type stuff.
  • You forgot the Enter key, so what you really meant was

    7 E 3 + 5 E 2 * 3 E 4 / + /

    which is 14 keystrokes, whereas the algebraic form requires 20 including the = on the end.

    However, I don't feel that the number of keystrokes is the main difference. I use HPs and RPN because it's more logical to delimit terms with a single Enter than to require a pair of matching brackets. For engineering problems, it's no contest.

  • TI v. HP (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 22, 1999 @07:41PM (#1882840)
    A week or two ago I lost my Ti-85. My dad gave it to me, it served me since the 7th grade.. I just now finished 11th grade. I will need to buy a new calculator and I am wondering if I should go with a TI or HP. I will be entering AP BC Cal next year and plan to do more math oriented stuff in college.

    Also, how much am I looking at for a TI-89 or a HP calc? $100 is okay for me but higher than that is pushing it.

    Programming is also a plus for me. Besides the normal math related programs, I have made others in which the TI-85 did not please me.. For example, a chess timer. This required a loop with a counter that eventually incremented seconds.. Thus the calc was looping all the time when a game was being played and wasting batteries. Is there any calculator which has programming features not solely related to math?

    Any expierences from both TI and HP users are appricated.
  • I got mine for $150 from Staples, but you can get one for $129 if you ask your math/science/comp sci teacher. My calc teacher gets them for $129 cuz he buys them in quantities of 10+.
  • Beyond all of the great software available for the HP 48s/g/gx series, and the wonderful IR port and serial port, there is one reason why engineers continue to purchase HP calculators over TI: the switchgear. If I had to pick one thing out of the inumerable things I hate about TI calulators, it would be that aweful switchgear. How much are they saving with those cheap switches, $1?

    Listen to me, TI. I want the buttons on my calculator to move on one axis only!

    -jwb

  • I would definately get a TI-89. I currently have a TI-89, and it basically does just about everything I want it to. And, of course, it has a 10MHz processor and a decet os. The games are really good on it, and yes, they are in greyscale, even though the os doesn't have native support for it. There are libraries which support greyscale which are used for programming in assembly. I only used HPs a little, so I'm not that familiar with the features they have or how they operate, but I would definately go with a TI-89.

  • Perhaps the most interesting feature.. (Score:3)

    by Equuleus42 ( 723 ) on Saturday May 22, 1999 @08:19PM (#1882846) Homepage
    ..is this one:
    Step-by-step solving option that enables you to learn how to get the right answer numerically or symbolically
    So there's finally a calculator that shows you the steps involved in getting an answer! Ha!
  • From my experience, the best mathematicias in Europe are the French. Their educational system is based on maths. If you are french and you want to get an engineering job, you have to pass the most incredibly difficult maths and physics exams. So french best engineers are usually better at maths than most other countries mathematicians.

    For the record I'm not French but Spanish, although I happen to be studying in France. And no, luckily I did not need to pass those maths exams! But I've seen the level those french students have in maths and its amazing. Its a pity that sometimes they seem to only know about maths, and not much about the practical issues of engineering

    .Cheers,

    Angel
  • Yes, all you do IS reverse the order, xcept, when you start using the stack, it gets a little diffrent

    6^(3-4)*8

    8
    6
    3
    4
    -
    ^
    *

    See, when you put it in like that, it can be much faster, and after a very short time, you get used to it and can do it VERY fast. [I'm taking Physics and we're doing Ohm's law, with complicated curcuits (in this sense) my calculator allows me to finish the problems much faster than other who are laboring /w their ())

    FunOne
    God Kills.
    FunOne

  • Current HP user, past TI user (Score:5)

    by unyun ( 45048 ) on Saturday May 22, 1999 @08:37PM (#1882851)
    I was having the same difficulty. My TI-86 was stolen at the middle of the semester, right before I entered Calc II (in high school, taken over the Iowa Communications Network--a big fiber-optic network that runs across Iowa connecting schools, etc.). Anyway, it was a college class, and I needed a good calculator. I looked over all the available models, information about them, and discussed it on newsgroups and chatrooms (probably much like what you are doing) I finally decided that since I wanted to get into electrical engineering, I'd buy a HP48GX.

    It was WAY different than the TI series of calculators. (I think it has something to do with the RPN vs. Algebraic interface)

    After I got used to it, I really liked it, and it had a bunch of useful functions that I could do very fast (well, considering the processor was only 4Mhz and couldn't really do stuff FAST), but I could manipulate numbers etc. very easily.

    I never really got into the advanced stuff on the HP48GX, but it can do some cool stuff and I've seen some awesome games for it, and they're _grayscale_ so they look a helluva lot better than the TI games.

    However, the HP does take a little while to get used to, and wasn't quite as friendly as the TI that I had been used to since 7th grade.

    But the HP49 looks like it will take care of ALL of my complaints. It is going to be MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH faster, and will have an Algebraic mode--which will make it easier for some problems.

    But really, I did not use my calculator much at all in the class. And I believe the AP BC calc is going to contain most of the same stuff that Calc II did. I did differentiation, integrals, vectors, more vectors, different types of coordinates, three dimintional vectors and matrices... those are what I remember right off-hand.
    What I used the calculator for most of the time was just to check my basic math such as multiplication and division, and occasionally square roots and exponents. I did use it for symbolic differentiation and integration and for creating 3d plots (3d plotting was SLOW--30 sec to 1 min for a single frame, but the HP49 will do 6 fps! and allow rotation in realtime).

    So really, your calculator will probably not make a HUGE difference in your class.

    If you are very comfortable with TIs and are happy with the features (and limitations) then just stick with it and get an 89 or 92.

    If you want more capabilities with programming, I/O, and just messing around in general, but are willing to sacrifice speed, get the 48GX.

    You may want to get the 49 though. Personally, I will get one before I go to my first college math class next year. It looks like the interface will be cleaned up, and make it easier to use for people not used to it--which would make it easier for you to transition from TI to HP. And the realtime 3d drawings will be great for advanced Calc. I think this HP49 looks (based on what I have heard and seen about it, never used one in person) spectacular, sounds as easy to use as a TI while being faster than a TI, yet keeping the power that HPs are known for.

    HP49 would be your best bet, then either a HP48GX or TI-89 (based on what you want to use it for).

    ~unyun~

  • IEEE 854? (Score:1)

    by GLR ( 6362 )
    I know the HPs are IEEE 854 compliant, but what about the TI's?
  • You got it! I bought my first HP when (For the Nth and LAST time) a button failed on one of my Tis (A TI-55II - this is 1982 timeframe) during a Class C amp exam.

  • Pictures (Score:5)

    by gleam ( 19528 ) on Saturday May 22, 1999 @07:24PM (#1882856) Homepage
    I forgot to include these in the submitted story.. but here [via.ecp.fr] are 15 (low quality) images of some alpha units in action.
  • I thought it was the ease of RPN as fewer keystrokes are needed to get the job done. Its a stack based type of input and the logical choice when the equations get long. I'm such an RPN diehard, typing 2+2=4 seems ugly. Its that extra = key that I have to type that gets annoying. RPN is a wonderful shortcut.
  • Admittedly, the built in 92 (and especially 89) math functions are generally better than the built in 48G ones, but with a little bit of software (erable and alg48) the GX blows the 89 out of the water. The nice thing about the 49 is that it appears to have incorporated the best parts of alg and erable, and then added even more. Also, with the MK based OS, it should be faster and easier than the 89. It also comes factory default as 2+2=4, instead of 2 2 + =4 (for all you RPNphobiacs).

    -gleam
  • It was invented by Jan Lukasiewicz, a Polish mathematician and philosopher. A short description can be found here [hpmuseum.org].
  • Posted by kenmcneil:

    I used a TI-92 during Algebra 2 and a TI-89 this year for AP Calculus. I highly recommended either, but you'll want the 89 so that you can use it on your AP Exam. Though nothing replaces studying the CAS comes in very handy. I took the AP Calculus exam last week and on some problems I felt like I was cheating (something like take the second derivative of some ugly function and find the zeros to locate the max/mins takes seconds).
  • What is this with no traditional IR port? To prevent cheating? This is an advanced calculator. There's enough onboard mathmatical power to simulate someone with intelligence on an exam, so I am not sure how much more of an advantage a direct link to your test taking neighbor would do. There is nothing wrong with a high powered IR port, but the paranoia.

    I still have my 28S and have found the wireless IR port quite nice to print. No need for a cable to tangle on the desk.


  • "...they've monopolized a fairly large niche market..."

    And was Apple profitable when only graphic designers used Macintoshes? No, they were only profitable when they had a large home user and educational market.

    That's what HP is trying to do. Expand their market to the educational arena. I, for one, am hoping that the 49G is really the upgrade to the 38G, not the high-end 48GX. If they had any brains at all, they'd take the GOOD features of the new 49, and put BACK the good features of the 48GX, including IR, expandibility, EQ Lib, and possibly even add a few more new features.

  • i've ran mine as a vt52 serial terminal, and i can tell you that it sucks to type on it. you do not want to run linux on it. the OS it has is just fine for doing what it does.
  • In my experience, exams where the prof permits calculators are substantially more difficult than ones where only the brain is allowed. When they started allowing calculators on the SATs, the entire test was rewritten for that purpose.

    Why should I use my brain's processor time for long division? Why should I memorize log tables? This is totally useless knowledge. Why shouldn't we concentrate on training our brains to synthesize, rather than be a lookup table for numbers? While I agree that it's important to be taught how to divide manually, and memorize SOME multiplication tables, at some point in the secondary education process, calculators should not only be allowed, but encouraged. You can simply conquer bigger problems in less time if you don't have to do long division.
  • I'm not sure I'm understanding your logic. By not relying on magic calculating boxes, the Irish are the most prolific magic calculating box programming people in the world...

    But that's bad, right? I still don't understand how wasting umpty bajillion minutes trying to divide two numbers wouldn't be better spent examining something that calculators CAN'T do, like number theory. I'm not advocating ignorance of how numbers work, I'm advocating being free from turning every nut and bolt in a complex problem.

    When the aliens attack, I'll dust off my math book and re-learn how to do long division. Until then, I'm quite happy with my HP 48G.
  • > The 48G(X) series have a 4MHz saturn processor. It is the 48S(X) who have a 2MHz one.

    I actually owned an SX once. Thought it ran at 1MHz thou. Mea culpa.
  • If you build something to do everything, it will do none of them very good, if you build something to do one thing, it will do that one thing very good, but not everything else.

    Have you TRIED math on a Palm or Computer, you cant do anything very fast, because you done have all those buttons (Or ANY on the palm). They may have more power, but no one can use them very well as calculators.

    The caculator is an all in one machine for those who need the power, it is NOT JUST for simple math.

    FunOne
  • Reverse Polish Notation is simply a different method of entering the information into the calculator. Instead of typing 3 + 5 = you type 3 Enter 5 +. It doesn't, at first glance, looks like it makes that much of a difference, but it can really speed up entering problems, especially more complex ones. Anyone doing advanced math on a regular basis should at least consider RPN. If you're at college, find one of the EE guys who knows it and ask for a demo.

    Arithon
    "Never ask a geek why, just nod your head and slowly back away."
    -Rob Malda
  • They have a calculator part and a no-calculator part to the test. The caclulator part has problems where you MUST have a TI-85 at least to get anything right

    not true! i did quite well on the BC ap calc exam, and i only had a very simple casio graphing calc. it doesn't do much beyond what a very cheap scientific calc does (not counting the graphing function, which is *slow*). actually, i wrote my own newton-method root finder, and it takes a good 5 minutes if you don't make a guess very close to the root. the bottom line, though, is that given enough time, you could do almost all of the calculator section by hand. though i don't remember exactly, i think that aside from drawing graphs, there wasn't much on the test that needed a calculator at all; and if you know what you're doing, you should be ables to make a good guess at the shape of a graph from the function.

    so, after a long-winded... something... a calculator is a tool, but it's not the only tool you can use. 90% of the time, your mind is the one to use, and when you need an answer fast the other 10%, then you should use your calculator.
  • How about a beowulf cluster of these?
  • e.g. (7+3)/((5*2)+(3/4))

    you would do 7 4 + 5 2 * 3 4 / + /
    which is 11 keystrokes compared to 19, almost half the number!

    If this seems complicated to someone who is not familiar with RPN, think of it a PUSH and POP on a stack. Its a very simple way of dealing with numbers and microprocessors do it this way natively. It does take a few days to appreciate this unusual format, but it really is more elegant.

    To me, it seems our eyes quickly parse the normal algebriac format and we don't think about it, but the RPN format is more logical when you actually want to crunch the numbers. Typing RPN is actually fun and enjoyable compared to the laborous, pretty, spelled out equation format.

  • Calculators and Learning (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Take the advice of the people here on which calculator, but really, TRY TO USE IT AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE!!! I can't believe how damn dependent people have become on a caculator that they don't know the meaning of a lot of math. By not using the calculator at all during homework and class, and only as a plotting device and number cruncher (as in adds, multiplies, trig functions) on tests, you'll learn a whole lot more. What you should especially try to understand is the connection between mathematics and "real world" problems, including what graphical representations mean (areas under curves aren't just areas under curves, slope of a curve at a point isn't just the slope of the curve at a point).

    Btw, I think that allowing a calculator like the TI-89 on the AP Calc test is a mistake, the damn thing can do symbolic math like the 92 (derivatives and integrals, wee), they just put it in a different case so that it isn't considered a computer.
  • But a niche market isn't necessarily a profitable market. While they may be the only company that produces RPN calculators, there isn't a *huge* demand for the units. Certainly, there is a market, otherwise production would be halted. Still, it looks to me like they've recognized that there is money in compromise, and I can't blame them for compromising.
  • The 49g solves 1st order differential equations, as well as linear second order ones. If I remember correctly, there was a step by step mode for those as well.

    --
    Sam.
  • I don't know about schematics, (maybe they're at www.hpcalc.org) but here's the info about cheating via IR and the 48/49 OS issue.

    Cheating with the IR is basically impossible, but most teachers don't know this. The receive function is crippled because of cheating and because of huge power drain when it is set to full power (at full power it can receive about 10 or 20 feet away). The send is not crippled, and can send about 15-20 feet, I believe.

    Still, teachers don't know this...they think anyone can beam an answer to anyone else. Modifying the IR is a lengthy and difficult process, though.

    Now, re: the 48/49 OS. They will not be replacable (i'm assuming this) simply because that generates no sales and, unlike the 49, the 48 is not flash upgradable. Still, I would buy a 49 to replace my 48 simply because of the added user ram (up to 1MB now, instead of the 128k of the GX) and cool case.

    ---note: i don't represent hp, i'm just a fan---
    ---therefore, don't take anything I say to be---
    ---gospel! Everything I know I learned from---
    ---developers and users of beta units. ---

    -gleam

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