Raster on Leaving Red Hat 171
I need to make sure people know the following:
I have nothing against my Red Hat in general - it's all against one person in specific - they abused E's user base and fdinally broke the camels back with a last straw. the mailed to a mailing list I was on and effectively stated that E users are a crowd that "festers around me" (thats a literal quote) - that was the last straw - and seeing they were in management they directed development andthus made red hat policies as they were - I'm keeping the name of this person out of it - but Red Hat needs to know I will NOT stand for their management staff offedning me and the Enlightenment user base like that without repurcussions. I care about users very much and I can't take any more of this kind of stuff. I have mailed Red Hat themselves and higher management and told them to do something about it. I do not want this kind of attitude prevailing - my negative comments about Red Hat are specifically directed at this induvidual and he is a big reason I left.
I think the rest of Red Hat have their heads screwed on right... just one does not.
Anyway - if you can paraphrase this or something that'd be good. anyway .. now to get on wiht driving.. :)
CT : I decided not to paraphrase, so you've got the story (typos and all) right from Raster. And best of luck to ya man. And I guess I hafta forgive you now for the "Meat Pie" thing...
Re:Bad grammar (Score:1)
--
Innovation (Score:1)
I think E has that, and I think it detached from the Gnome project at the right time. I don't think Gnome is that much enlightened and maybe one of the reasons for that is that it's being funded by Redhat.
An enlightened desktop... now that's a cool thought. Maybe the biggest problem they had with Raster at Redhat was because of them not being able to stop him having cool (maybe weird?) ideas. I guess I can live with that...
Nothing personal against Redhat. I just use Debian because for me it's the best.
As to the dektops, the usual way is having both gnome-libs and kde-libs installed, and letting E run the show.
David
Re:djb@redhat.com (Score:1)
Isn't the concept here to make money off the people willing to pay for said documentation?
I don't have a big problem with this general concept. I DO have a problem with people like the individual described (I don't assume these are all the facts, however) who are unwilling to let common sense into the marketing and development process. But shouldn't Red Hat deserve to produce its own documentation?
Re:THE BIG FUD HAT SELL OUT (Score:1)
This is nothing more than a disgruntled employee (raster) sounding off. In the computer industry we use the net to flame. In the Postal service they use
It's obvious that you're just ranting, and probably trolling, so i won't bother remarking on your other non-points.
pointy haired bosses (Score:2)
the ipo forced the ipo forced the company to put in a middle layer of 'touchy-feely, non-technicals (or those with some tech skills had limited experience). the result, a death march nightmare. products released early because of screaming from marketing, then screaming from 'managers' leading to all-night programming sessions that delivered the compiled code. but have a guess what a small bug would be in it. this is called fire chasing management.
i tried working within the system but ran into brick walls as the pointy haired boss would just nod and say yes to the work i had been doing but taking no action. so what did i do, flame at the boss, employees and the rest of the world?, na just left on good terms and found another job. no hysteria, no snarling.
so for all you young slashdotters out there, if yr in a job where boss is a moron, try working the system. if this doesn't work, leave yr job on good terms and find another and let the company to it's own destiny.
the pointy haired boss network can be yr downfall. a company i know had a 'programmer' who sat on their rear for months/weeks (phb's not doing their job) not doing their job properly, quit and leave them in the lurch before a big roll-out and his former boss happened to bump into his new boss. guess i wouldn't mind to be a fly on the wall
The quote was "festers around me", not "festering" (Score:1)
Re:That was a little too harsh (Score:1)
expect to be quoted literally. He asked Rob to
paraphrase it, and instead, Rob just posted it.
This was supposed to be a quickie note to Rob.
Where's you're sense of spite? (Score:1)
this guy screwed you over, and he deserves what he gets, no it woudln't have done you any good, but it wouldn't have done you any harm ether... you should have done it!
---------------
Chad Okere
Re:djb@redhat.com (Score:1)
This is certainly something very old and most likely references documentation that I haven't maintained in several years now, and have removed from the RH web and FTP servers long ago. The fact that this info is mirrored somewhere is something I can do very little about. If I'm wrong and this stuff is still alive @redhat.com then I need to know what we're talking about so I can fix it.
I'm sorry you didn't care for my responses, but this story doesn't remind me of any real circumstances as *I* know them.
--Donnie
Re:Michael Fulbright (Score:1)
Sheesh, this is turning into Enquirer.
Re:@redhat.com (Score:1)
Many people who have to translate between their native tongue and English either make many spelling/grammatical mistakes or come off sounding very mean and "flamish" in their messages.
If you, or anyone, are a person who makes such snap decisions without any understanding or wisdom you shouldn't be running Red Hat or any Linux distribution. Go back to the dark side where you belong.
---
Mailing list archives (Score:2)
This mail archive is currently broken
why all the hoopla? (Score:1)
I was surprised myself that RH6.0 shipped with the Enlightenment window manager. However, if this is really true, I think that we should just let it go.
I mean, so he left Red Hat. It's not the end of the world or anything. RH will still be around, he will still be around, so I don't see what all the hoopla is about.
Re:THE BIG FUD HAT SELL OUT (Score:1)
Dude, get a grip. Red Hat Linux doesn't cost anything. I mean, yeah, if you want the official CD with all the extra stuff on it, you'll have to cough up some cash, but the main parts of the system - the GNU/Linux parts and the RPM parts, and the GNOME parts that Red Hat has spent lots of money on developing are all GPL'd.
sucks to be redhat (Score:5)
but on the other side, you have the rebel alliance who hates you because youre a corporation, because you actually require money to live (as do all companies) and because you have to pay for all those people you hire that write software that everyone downloads from your ftp site. because you have to support their gospel with your advertising dollars. because you have to pay technical support to help further their Cause.
and you have to listen to them all bitch about how expensive it is when nearly all of them got it for free.
redhat can never win.
if they ever can triumph over microsoft, every GPL freak, 3l337 h4xx0r, and libertarian psycho will ditch them because theyve "sold out".
A corporation's number one job is to make money. But there are a LOT of different ways to make money. Why can't people understand that? The idea that Redhat will "become the next Microsoft" is ridiculous. The instant they piss you off, you download their stuff FOR FREE. And there's NOTHING THEY CAN DO ABOUT IT. Redhat doesn't know any more about Linux than any of us can, they can't hide any API's, they don't own any standards. Even the things they invent they have to put out for public inspection and usage, even in competing products.
People seem to think that Linux can get there on its own merits. But we all know thats not true. Tucker. Betamax. Amiga. (i hesitate here) Macintosh. Lets face it, money talks. Only big companies and the government have money, and, more importantly, power.
People should stop fearing Redhat because they are trying to get powerful. The judicious exercise of power by someone friendly to us (for once) is why everyone should support Redhat. Who can deny that they have already had a huge influence? Besides, we all know that if they ever do anything to piss us (the linux community) off enough, we'll kick their ass. This whole Raster thing makes my point, I think.
So give them a fscking break will ya?
unc_
Re:It isn't ALL of Red Hat (Score:2)
If I were in a crappy situation that had something to do with a product I was working on, I can totally see putting a message on a list for it to say things were bad and I was leaving. However he didn't ask anyone to spread the word, and he didn't send it to Rob as a news story. So in that case, it hardly sounds like publicity.
Red Hat needs to work this out. (Score:1)
It doesn't matter how difficult these people are to manage - Red Hat must maintain GNOME development staff. Red Hat chose to make E part of GNOME; no better resource on E is available.
You can't buck the GUI trend of the rest of the Linux distributions and dispose of the developers at the same time.
The GNOME in RH6 is very much a work in progress. Substantial integration issues remain. The timing on this is catastrophic.
This is a suicidial move by Red Hat. They might as well drop back to fvwm95.
Change of Direction (Score:5)
This pretty much invalidates most of the 400+ messages to the previous info.
It still sounds to me like Red Hat is doing right by us. I mean, they are STILL releasing everything as GPL.
Careful folks, or we might give Paranoia a new definition: see
Andrew Gilmore
(gotta do something while my home directory gets restored from tape!)
@redhat.com (Score:1)
I won't name names either, but the attitude I got from this @redhat.com person was enough to convince me of Redhat's growing arrogance. The 5.X series was more than enough to convince me of their slipshod QA.
This is good news. (Score:2)
I'm sure Linux could be turned into a better Windows than Windows, and maybe that would be a good thing in a lot of cases, but we don't have to lose the ability to configure the look and feel of system. Just because I use Linux for serious work, there's no reason my desktop should look bland and corporate (yes, I use Linux and Enlightenment at work).
Actually, I'm not too happy with the way Gnome tries to hide the fact that Enlightenment is running as the WM and maybe a little separation of the two will be good for both. I like the Gnome apps, but I want Enlightenment to control the way my sceen and windows look, and the trend seemed to be towards Gnome taking over the whole show...
Yes, I definitely thing the split will turn out to be a Good Thing for all parties.
Re:Is this really Raster? (Score:1)
--
It happens everywhere. (Score:1)
Anyway, he "left the company by mutual agreement" (read: Quit or you're fired) when new owners took over. I had 2 more bosses before the place went belly-up and they were both very easy to work for.
What you're saying is absolutely true, although you can extend that to your boss' boss and the VP of your organization (usually a PHB even in engineering).
Is this really Raster? (Score:2)
This could still just be some jerk fucking us (and him) around.
Not that it's our business anyway. It's between him and Red Hat.
axolotl
Redhat is the big winner here! (Score:1)
It's not for kids (Score:1)
I don't know what you consider "kids", but as an 8th grader, I happily use E (unfortunately with GNOME).
Personally, I think that E is a work of art, and kicks ass. But GNOME needs help in that Bloatware area.
Some early Calculus stuff:
Let rh(t) be RedHat's similarity to M$ at time t. (rh(t)=1 means that RH=M$)
Then we can conclude that:
lim rh(t) = 1
t->Infinity
Re:Raster and hubris (Score:1)
If Rasterman's feedback indicates that this is good, then it's good for the users. Even if this goes against what management thinks.
Re:@redhat.com (Score:1)
"Redhat's growing arrogance."
Oups... say that to somebody else. This year I did a report about RedHat for my economy course and I had interesting feedback from them. At first I tried to e-mail at redhat.com and to browse their website but when i needed some information that weren't provided here I tried to e-mail to Bob Young himself. Not only did he respond, but he responded in French (oups... i forgot to say that i'm French
I want to thanks Redhat for faciliting the access of Linux to newbie and for the good job (thanks to the other distros too).
Maybe you've got some bad manager at Redhat but I really don't think the company is evil and won't think that until they begin to release some of their own code on a non-open license.
BTW: don't go and e-mail Bob without need.
no, the question is: (Score:1)
like the sniviling, iconoclastic worm that you are
(I had to include some words I might misspell, I don't really know what 'iconoclastic' means)
BURN BURN BURN YOU SPELL-CRAZED NAZI!
---------------
Chad Okere
Programmers can't spell. creat() is misspelled. (Score:2)
creat()
strcmp()
...
Re:RedHat's Response is typical MICROSOFT! (Score:1)
This is not true!
They only display the last two articles posted.
I checked this earlier today myself, the article was there.
It isn't ALL of Red Hat (Score:2)
This whole thing kind of strikes me as a semi-publicitiy stunt. People shouldn't write publicly about their former employers unless it's really, really bad. And in this case, it was just a minor personality conflict.
Kind of ridiculous. If you don't like it, just quit. It's that simple.
Why would a Libertarian ditch Capitalism? (Score:1)
I have to laugh here... Why would a libertarian shun a company engaged in a lawful, non-coercive capalistic activity? Especially when it came to Linux, where there are no less than 4 mature distributions, countless minor ones, and the option of completely rolling your own.
Other than that quip, I essentially agree with what you've stated.
RedHat will never be in a position to restrict your choices when it comes to Linux. Ask any Debian, Slackware, or SuSE user. They can't co-opt the kernel, nor any of the other GNU software upon which they depend. Even if they developed the next "killer app," and decided not to release it's source, as a means of distinguishing themselves from the other distributions, what's the harm in that?
There is nothing inherently evil about making money. There is nothing inherently evil about selling something that's free, providing you can find a willing buyer.
There's certainly value in what RedHat does, bundling together an entire Linux distribution, producing useful documentation for it, and distributing it in a convienient format. It's admirable that they have been willing to pay developers to write code that will benefit not only themselves, but the Linux community at large.
No harm, no foul.
Re:no, the question is: (Score:1)
Mission complete: sniveling
also, Iconoclast \I*con"o*clast\, n. [Gr. e'ikw`n image + ? to break: cf. F. iconoclaste.] 1. A breaker or destroyer of images or idols; a determined enemy of idol worship. 2. One who exposes or destroys impositions or shams; one who attacks cherished beliefs; a radical.
HTH ;)
--neil
Celebrity Worship (Score:5)
All this seems much ado about nothing. Some guy out there wanted to quit his job so he did. Who really cares? Let the man make his personal decisions in peace.
This celebrity obsession is really tacky and inconsiderate to "Raster".
Strike the Jesus pose (Score:1)
Re:Raster and hubris (Score:3)
On the other hand, some project managers have become managers either because they've lost their passion for the work or never had it in the first place. I've worked for good and bad managers, the bad type is always more concerned with corporate "vision" than the creative talent in his team. Good managers realize that their best coders will always produce something amazing that will benefit the company. Give them everything they need and get out of the way...great things will follow.
Re:King of windowmanagers (Score:1)
How did RedHat make a big mistake? It was Raster who quit...RedHat didn't fire him. Is it a loss for RedHat? Most assuredly...but, unless Raster himself comes forward to outline the steps he took to address his problem with his superior (ie. private meeting, greivence procedures..etc, etc), how do we know that this manager and Raster simply did not get along and the moment the manager made a stupid comment, or slipped up (newflash folks, otherwise decent people can and will make mistakes), Raster just used it as an excuse to bolt?
We are seeing one side of the story here people, and while one can laud Raster for standing up for the E users, he was playing in a completely different world than the grade school sandbox where one can pick up their toys and leave if Johnny doesn't play nice, and he should have acted like it. It would have been far better if there was at least an attempt at a understanding of the situation...and maybe there was, it's just no one who knows is talking about it.
Re:Bad grammar (Score:1)
An ability to communicate is incredibly important in all walks of life, whether that be office politics or a simple note. It may seem anal, but it smooths the gears in our society. Imagine life if everyone understood *exactly* what everyone else was saying.
As an example, my favorite computer science professor has a bunch of degrees pertianing to computer science (Math, comp. engineering, comp. sci.) and and a BA in English. His lectures and his writings are crisp and they are what make him an effective teacher.
Good communication skills makes an effective leader.
-John
Re:About engineers who can "write their own ticket (Score:1)
I think you've missed the mark a little with
your superstar description. I believe that one
of the main reasons Linus is so successful is that
he doesn't fall into the trap of thinking he's a
superstar. Anyone who reads linux-kernel knows
what his reaction to a comment like that from
management would be, simply "go away".
Basically, if you employ someone who's really
good, they will manage you where you fall short.
cheers
Greg
P.S. You Americans just don't get vegemite, it's
a concentrate. So next time try just a little bit.
Re:Very typical! get used to those attitudes... (Score:1)
I don't buy it (Score:1)
Re:Very typical! get used to those attitudes... (Score:1)
Hell im moving to Suse and for the following reasons.
1. Suse input into Local UK magazines.
2. Less Lib issues ( from experience)
3. Too much RH sidling upto Blue Chips
as For E well I tried to get Gnome working as E was required to install I discovered E worked. Sorry Miguel but E worked. first come first served. Still Gnome applets are cute and Raster keep on truckin
Re:Bad grammar (Score:1)
I proofread everything I write just because I'm anal about my own spelling. However, if someone doesn't live up to my own personal standard I'm not going to hold it against them and say they're a moron. UNLESS THEY TYPE IN ALL CAPS AT THE SAME TIME. In that case they can go to hell.
Re:Controversiality? You bet (Score:1)
I think raster has contributed a lot to gtk, particurly the themes stuff that he worked on - this is considered highly by several people and is useful, despite it's current rather weak uses, could come in very useful in a mixed environment.
There's no reason that a desktop should be ugly - I'ld find that very offputting (personally)
Oh, I know... (Score:3)
I've worked for/with some complete losers as well. But rambling, misspelled, ungrammatical rants aren't the way to convince people.
It looked like E was pretty important to RH (new default WM and tightly integrated to GNOME). And Raster was the main E developer. So if he had a problem with a manager, why not go to a higher up and complain? Surely RH is smart enough not to lose the goose that lays the golden eggs.
No, I think it is much more likely that Raster acts in person a lot like his emails paint him out to be--and his manager wanted someone a little more mature to headup a crucial project like a Window Manager for "The People's Distro". The manager probably tried to get Raster to clean up his act (if not his code) and that just "broke the camel's back".
--
"Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
Re:RedHat's Response is typical MICROSOFT! (Score:2)
Re:Boycott RedHat !!! (Score:3)
If someone isn't a "team player", then they should stay away from group projects. It's not that they're a bad person or that they're a bad programmer, it's just that they are not well suited to working on large projects working with a number of peers.
People should work on what they're good at. Individual superstars should go do their own thing. People who can play well with others should do so.
But we shouldn't start a witch hunt against the person that points out that someone isn't good at playing with others. He's just the messenger.
-Lyle
Re: (Score:1)
Celebrity Worship the coinage of OSS (Score:3)
Just to be redundant......spell cheque, please, it makes you seem more preffesionel.
Re:Bad grammar (Score:1)
This might not be the case in this example it is often the case in comments posted here on slashdot. (just a guess)
English speaking people often forget to think about this.
--
Still disappointed (Score:1)
Well, that's my view. I wont post on the subject again, no use fanning the flames.
FVWM2.2+ is GNOME-aware, simple, & themeable ( (Score:1)
Re:It's not for kids (Score:1)
BTW, nifty bit of limits. I didn't learn that stuff untill about grade 11.
Playing nice (Score:1)
I've been a manager and right now I'm a grunt. I baled from managing because of two things 1) I had some architectural ideas that I wanted to play with and 2) I wasn't getting support from my manager who just wanted to play it safe. I might go back to managing, I might not; only time and opportunity will tell.
I don't know who raster's manager was nor do I care but I will hazard a guess that s/he is a first time manager, has had no formal training on how to manage and/or might be a living embodiment of the peter principle. On the flipside, raster might have been able to better manage up.
The sad thing is that this event is generating so much bad publicity. I think that the uber-manager should have realized that there was something up and reined in front-line manager because good talent is more important mediocre management. As it is now, RH is going to have to spend a fair amount of time and energy rebuilding any bridges that have been burnt.
Spelling oops (Score:1)
Bruce
Raster (Score:1)
Code Quality (Score:3)
Anyone who has taken a peek at the E source (and I last did so before AC started cleaning up behind RM), knows that E doesn't come close. In fact, after seeing the source, I am amazed that RM's grammar and spelling as as good as they are.
[Sorry for the seeming ad hominem -- unfortunately, this is how I feel.]
Book on Interface Design (Score:1)
Off topic, I know, but...
"About Face; The Essentials of User Interface Design", by Alan Cooper [cooper.com]
ISBN 1-56884-332-4
I strongly recommend this particular book for anyone looking at doing some serious UI design.
Re:Mailing list archives (Score:1)
;) (my bad!)
AW
Re:Programmers can't spell. creat() is misspelled. (Score:1)
As is evidenced by the fact that you think that `potatoe' is considered correct. I won't comment on the implications of totally missing a joke.
Which I assume I haven't done.
--neil
Re:Raster dude... (Score:1)
---------------
Chad Okere
Re:Mailing list archives (Score:1)
2) They never sent anything to the list with any insulting comments about E users.
You really thought that they'd write to pretty much all of the serious E users telling them they were 'festering' around Raster?
They've been unprofessional, but that's just plain childish.
--
David Coulson (TechNoir)
themes.org Senior Developer
Re:Bad grammar (Score:1)
1) An unwillingness to admit error by proofreading. Very bad attribute in a programmer.
2) A deepseated inability to communicate.
=================
People who flame only over poor grammar and/or spelling can only be the result of one of two things:
1) An unwillingness to accept anything different than their silly world view
2) A deep-seated constipation.
"Run it through a spell-checker!" Dude, spell checkers can suck. If you can't spell, you have to trust that the spell checker is right, no?
Some people can't type to save their lives. You are saying they're illiterate idiots because they can't type? Get a life.
Re:funny, after all the hero worship (Score:1)
~luge
Re:RedHat's Response is typical MICROSOFT! (Score:1)
Re:Bad Managers....no doughnut (Score:1)
For example: recently, after getting permission from my direct manager, I installed Linux on my desktop machine at work. So that I could be more productive. Then a higher manager caught wind of it (via. the whining of the local system support person, not that I needed his support), and demanded that I put NT back on my desktop (in the name of "complying with corporate standards" - what bogosity). Needless to say, I do most of my productive work at home now (in Linux). And my job satisfaction has sunk very low.
But none of this is my direct manager's fault - in some ways I feel we both suffered together on this. (Having such a decision reversed must have been embarrasing, to say the least).
Re:Raster dude... (Score:1)
Having a break between jobs allows you to get your head screwed back on straight. After working in a job where you've had to either quit or lose your sanity, you don't want to walk into that next, possibly cool as shit job, burned out.
Take a much needed break. You and your next employer will thank you.
funny, after all the hero worship (Score:1)
~luge
Re:Michael Fulbright (Score:5)
Neither of them can design an interface worth a damn, though. (There's a difference between something that looks cool and something that drives you nuts when you try to use it for more than 8 seconds.) Examples: Dr Mike is one of the guys behind Gnome Help Browser, which doesn't have a Find function! Raster wrote Electric Eyes and the Gnome Pager applet, both of which are extremely cumbersome to use.
Lots of other Gnome programs are about as bad. One thing that's really lacking is good programmers who are also good at designing interfaces. (Designing a good interface is probably just as hard as designing a good program.) The problem is that when somebody says "Hey, program Foo really needs an extra menu here and a button or two there," he'll too often hear "Ok, code it yourself," as a response.
That's a well-and-good attitude (I guess..) for traditional Unixesque programming projects, but for one that's intended to ultimately be used by the masses, it's a problem.
I bet one of the RHAD (or any other party seriously interested in improving Unix's usability) might do would be to hire some former UI guy from (say) Apple and put him in charge, or at least in a position where he would be taken very seriously.
It's a frustrating situation.
Re:Bad grammar (Score:1)
Hero Worship.... Have Had Enough (Score:1)
And you are basing this profound statement on what exactly? Do you have some sort of insider info on how this thing went down? Or, more likely, do you just like stickin it to da Man? Really going out on a political limb there aren't you?
At no point in this whole tabloid mess going on have we heard what exactly transpired between the manager and Raster. All we have are the disjointed ramblings of a pissed-off former employee. You have absolutely no idea what RedHat's corporate level involvement in this whole mess is.
This knee-jerk hero worship is gettting very old.
not uncommon, apparently (Score:4)
djb@redhat.com (Score:3)
This really wouldn't be that big of an issue except for the *closed* license model for documentation. RedHat promotes that they honor GPL with pure-unpatched sources
his document is Copyright (C) XXXX by Red Hat Software. Redistribution of this document is permitted as long as the content
remains completely intact and unchanged. In other words, you may reformat and reprint or redistribute only.
Hence, RedHat can use people like Donnie Barnes to continue to create closed documentation that states what is "best" for RedHat instead of what is true. RedHat documenation can not be altered in parellel with the open source project it claims to provide documentation for unless RedHat feels it wants the true nature of future revisions to be included in it's close documentation. This is one reason why I never bothered to even look at GNOME. While Mr. Young was complaining about the modifiablity of Qt widget source, I slept soundly knowing that the Qt widgets worked fine for my purposes and what KDE programs I modified, I could modify the KDE documentation to correctly reflect how the change should be documented. If stating the truth (or at least removing the lies) is too hard to support for RH, why would it be any different for RHAD?
Donnie Barnes made it clear that RH does not desire my feedback. He won. I no longer give RH any. Go LDP!
Well.. (Score:1)
No one really expected a gold pot at the end of the rainbow, eh?
Red Hat, like all companies, is looking to increase profits. Companies sometimes do this by any means necessary. They keep their friendlyness towards the current Linux users because they are still the majority buying Red Hat. Once mainstream gets into Linux they will forget about freedom, GPL (as if they haven't already forgotten about the little organization known as GNU), and the Linux coders, nerds, etc. More money is to be made in closed source software. Why do you think Red Hat embraces GNOME and GTK so much? Do you really think Red Hat would want to pay royalties to Troll Tech when they want to write closed-source software and sell it for big bucks? Red Hat is not concerned about modifying and redistribution. Yet that is the reason they wrote a document (if they still have it at redhat.com) about the evilness of Qt. They themselves sell closed-source software. Talk about hypocrisy.
* Red Hat pushes for glibc so they have a "new" feature for one of their distributions. They need money--they find new features (like GNOME 1.0 is the recent "new" thing in Red Hat 6.0). Flame wars begin about libc5 vs. glibc. Slackware gets a bad rep for sticking with libc5 while people do not know that the difference between libc5 and glibc is very small and they will not be able to tell. People claim Red Hat is "innovating" while what they are really doing is jumping the gun on an unstable C library so they have a new feature.
* Red Hat sells "regular user" (average joe) CD's for $80 while saying the $40 CD is for "hard-core" users only. A lame attempt to justify selling something for $80 that is worth less than $5. The difference between Microsoft and Red Hat is that Microsoft actually makes some of their stuff (and purchases the rest) while Red Hat uses the labor of thousands and takes advantage of freedom. The only reason Red Hat is funding GNOME/Alan Cox is because they want to speed up development so they have a product to sell in the end.
* Red Hat pushes for a GNOME 1.0 release. And yes, I have seen the gnome-hackers mailing list emails from RHAD labs pushing the release. The coders of GNOME said it was an API release to cover up the fact that GNOME wasn't ready for the 1.0 hype. Having a stable API means nothing if the insides aren't working. It's like having a fancy car frame built but the engine won't fit under the hood once you finish.
It's OK if Raster has no hard feelings towards Red Hat. But, I'm keeping mine.
Re:Bad Managers....no doughnut (Score:1)
The difference is that he *knows* he knows nothing, and doesn't try to bullshit his staff. He's been an effective buffer between my team and the rest of the company and he lets us do things our way. OK, he lets us do things our way because he doesn't know any better, but productivity has skyrocketed, and he's managed to weasel more equipment money out of the folks upstairs.
He knows his job. He's there to manage, not write code. He does a good job making the rest of the company stick to its commitments to the dev staff, and we do our part in return. And even better, as the lead developer, I'm making more money than him.
Now if we could only replace the VP of IT with someone like this guy....
RedHat owns the world (Score:1)
Methinks Bruce is right. (Score:1)
If he treated the folks at Transmeta (I'm _not_ talking 'bout his fellow linux-kernel developers; The distinction is important) as if he were a superstar... it would not be particularly nice or in-character, but he could likely get away with it, or very easily find somewhere else to work. Same for Raster.
Red Hat's dilemma (Score:1)
I'm afraid I don't have much respect for GNOME at all, and I didn't have much for E until I read Raster's commendable sentiments on
What am I typing apart from great flame-bait? I'm saying that RH is in big trouble. I think it's riding on a wave of Linux hype. The articles about GNOME w/Linux being as newbie-friendly as windows are just crap. I have no idea what RH's plans are/were but I'm not worried about them because I think they'll fail. It pisses me off the way the other great free pieces of X software, Window Maker and KDE are so underrappreciated compared to GNOME/E. Window Maker has a truly great interface, small memory footprint and KDE is also an excellent piece of software, even though it's rarely given any credit. I think RH and much surrounding it is based on egotistical and/or power-hungry motivations and will probably implode in the next year or two. I don't have any dislike of RH, they're just another company like Sun or Apple, I just objectively think they are heading for a fall.
Re:Who cares about Raster (Score:1)
Get real, not everbody who can code can spell, and everybody who can spell can code. I can't spell when I type, but when I code my fingers are trained as to what I want to do, you don't have to know the whole language to code.
There is no doubt he would have been fired for technical reasons had he not quit
How do you there is no doubt about that, do you have information that we don't.
Re:Bad grammar (Score:1)
/smartass>
Maturity (Score:2)
The one thing I notice on these threads is the criticisms of Raster for being immature. This is like criticizing a just-born kitten for having its eyes closed. How old is Raster, anyway (I thought he was in his early twenties, but I could of course be wrong), and from where was he supposed to get all that wonderful maturity everyone thinks he should have? If someone possessing as much raw talent and in receipt of as much recognition as Raster can't be a little hot-headed at that age, then I think that we've adopted a set of expectations for human behavior that is entirely disconnected with reality.
If Raster's departure screws up anything in Red Hat's plans, then it is arguably true that Red Hat has some rather short-sighted managers; placing that great a dependence on someone as young and mercurial as Raster would a classic lapse of common business sense. I would expect that they hired Raster as someone with a deep understanding of X and an uncanny ability with graphical textures, not as someone who would carry the battle flag to victory. I'm sure that others working there have learned a great deal from him, that many of his contributions are greatly appreciated, and that the work will continue without him.
Raster is strong-willed and talented enough (even if he can't write to save his life) that he will probably go on to do great things, whether it is by himself or leading some others. I am also confident that, to the extent that his behavior in this case reflects immaturity, some of that immaturity will be worn off as he experiences the consequences thereof. I wish him well.
Controversiality? You bet (Score:4)
This is what happens when a person lets glitz and gloss get in the way of useful coding, and immaturity takes over.
Ok, the usual disclaimer before I get started. I dont use Gnome, I dont use KDE, I dont use E, and I rarely use X. I am not a CLI purist, just find that the CLI gives me most of what I want from a computer. Moreover, I'll say that I've tried E, and Gnome.
Raster's main objective in E is not to actually provide a useful window manager, but to provide inconsequential configurability for the sake of configurability. I'll admit that when I first saw E I was enamored, and said "wow, cool". But take a second look people. As a windowmanager, it provides a shithole of an experience. It's quite obvious that Raster, while putting a lot of work into the configurability and theme-ability, did not pay one bit of attention to the actual usability of E. In his previous statement, Raster accuses the Gnome developers of trying to create a windows clone. But I think that Raster copies microsoft philosophy much more than the Gnome crew. E emphasizes glitz and gimmicks rather than real usability. Gnome on the other hand is about usability. Even though they might lose track of that from time to time, that's the main purpose behind Gnome.
With all this E-bashing, one my ask what point I'm getting to. My point is that E and this occurence, is a reflection of Raster's personality. Maybe it was a mistake for the gnome crew to hire him in the first place, but It's pretty obvious that he does not jive with the goal behind Gnome.
But this is all just my take on the matter.
-Laxative
Why are people talsing about raster? (Score:1)
so hard to work with bla bal bal", This has, as I
see it, nothing to do with weathere raster is
easy to work with. It is about the fact that some
one slanderd all E users colectivaly and that
pissed raster off. I think he is a beter man for
standing up for people we most of which he dosent
even know peosonaly and to whome he sertanly owes
no debt.
yes I use E. not becouse I think that raster is
the second comming but becouse I can make it do
things that I can't do with anny othere wm with
out patching the code.
-Jonathan
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Raster dude... (Score:1)
Life's too short to put up with PHBs. If it takes four or five tries to find a good job, so be it. Just make sure you line up your new job before bailing out of the old one. And don't forget to consider contracting.
Best 'o luck, Raster...
Bad Managers....no doughnut (Score:1)
Sounds like he made the right move to get out of there.
Re:Attitudes - it often takes two... (Score:1)
Agreed - but don't forget, some people shouldn't be managers. The guy I'm working with at the moment is (technically) fairly competant, and one hell of a nice guy, but can't manage a piss-up in a distillery (and that's where I work - A DISTILLERY !!!).
Then again, some people CAN'T be managed, or require very careful management. I've never met Raster, nor am I likely to - I've admired and respected his work, and tend to agree with his comments on E, but he is an obvious example of someone who cares more about the users than "toeing the corporate line".
Having said that, the RH manager he's refering to should have had more common sense than to make a "company-binding" comment in a public forum like that.
To Raster, I say "Well done" - move on and continue the work on E - there's lots of us out there who support your stand !!!
RedHat's Response is typical MICROSOFT! (Score:1)
Sounds like their PR/Marketing engine is in as high a gear as Microsoft's usually is! Congratulations, RedHat. You've now truly, "Known thine enemy."
Who is Raster??? (Score:1)
Hacker-Raster-Tracker (Score:1)
But seriously, if I was in his path and not in Boston I'd offer to take him out to dinner when he passed through my town. Surely there are others who can offer appropriate hospitality to a road-weary hacker.
Note to Malda: the meat pie comment is just so 'leet. Stick to the news, pal. Just keep doing that thing you do.
Re:Programmers can't spell. creat() is misspelled. (Score:1)
BTW, ignore my spelling errors. Eye cant spel wurth a dam. Yet I am quite a good coder...
Re:Best and only valid point here! (Score:1)
Re:E+Raster (Score:2)
If you want to turn on all the graphical bells & whistles (sliding windows, opaque windows, etc.) then it will naturally take a speed hit. However, they key here is that you can turn all of it off, on, or just have some of it running. Thanks to the nifty graphical config these days, it's just a matter of clicking a few options.
Don't flame something which you haven't used for six months.
Re:It isn't ALL of Red Hat (Score:2)
Kind of ridiculous. If you don't like it, just quit. It's that simple.
The Open Source Community is just that, a community. Communication happens. If the idea was for this to be kept quiet, Raster would not have been able to tell ANYBODY about it. Here in
Remember, the internet brings us all together. By that same token if you make a mistake there is a possibility of millions reading about it. Also, if you write something you could later regret, there is a possibility of millions reading it. Raster made the latter mistake. Live and learn.
Heah head (Score:2)
It seems that too many people cannot appreciate "good" without reference to a percieved "bad". This seems to happen at all levels of society. Complex issues are polarised and reduced to simple dichotomies so they can fit in small minds.
Re:Is this really Raster? (Score:2)
Re:I don't buy it (Score:2)
Doesn't this make eveything ok? (Score:3)
We've established that Raster is not a whining, immature employee, as some suggested. His response seems to be pretty level-headed, and his letter from yesterday is understandable. I'd be mad at first too.
We've established that Red Hat is not evil. Well, maybe not, but at least we've established that Red Hat was not evil in this case.
These were the big problems, right? (besides that mini-KDE/GNOME flame war, but hey, what else is new?) It just seems that Red Hat had a bad manager, and what company doesn't have a bad manager or two? The only problem I see is that maybe Red Hat should have put a little more distance between RHAD and themselves, at least assigning a more open-minded manager (or a more tactful one at least!) or, if he was from another department, keeping more distance between the two. A no-badmouthing-the-users-in-public policy is always a good thing!
..And where he stops, nobody knows.... (Score:3)
Hmm.. this is getting a little out of hand..
First, its "They (Red Hat) don't believe users really count -- corporates and 'partners' count and what they percieve as the 'business world that wants an exact windows clone' counts" , and now (today) its "I think the rest of Red Hat have their heads screwed on right... just one does not."
Carsten, pick one and stick with it..Honestly. Rapidly changing your tune like this sounds just as bad in the press as it does in music.
I remember my first job..I got paid $5.25/hr to stack printouts on a reception desk at a community college. The work conditions sucked, and later on the management sucked too. Infact, there was alot of bad blood running between me and the guy who was appointed to be my supervisor. One evening, I saw him and a female coworker 20 years younger than him wander into a darkened classroom where they proceeded to "clear the desks" for a good half hour or so. A week later, she got a promotion, after only having worked there for about 8 weeks..Promoted past 5 or 6 other people (myself included) who had been there upwards of 2 years or more.
Certainly, this was something I could have easilly gotten him fired over..But, doing so wouldn't have changed anything. Complaining would'nt have changed the fact that this guy was an asshole, and complaining to HIS supervisor (or telling my coworkers) would accomplish nothing as well. So, I put in my two weeks notice, got another job across campus, and used this loser as a job reference to get where I wanted to go.
The world is filled with people like that..People in management who really shouldnt be there. You will ALWAYS have these sorts of disputes within any company. You either learn to comprimise, bow down and take it, or leave. The choice is up to you.
I dont blame Carsten for leaving Red Hat. However, it was a tremendous mistake for him to take his grievances into a public forum in the manner that he chose. Keep in mind Red Hat runs Slashdot headlines front and center on its homepage.."Rasterman Leaves Red Hat" is not the kind of thing that I would want splashed across my company's webpage. It makes Carsten look bad, AND Red Hat look bad.
And in doing so, it makes Linux as a whole look bad as well.
Bowie
PROPAGANDA [themes.org]
About engineers who can "write their own ticket" (Score:5)
Linus and Rasterman, however, are both well-known individuals with their own user communities. They're happy to work for you on their own terms. You can deal with this, and reap the benefits of being associated with them, or you can let them move on. They won't let you push them too far, especially where their user communities are concerned, because if your decisions are poor they will be the ones who lose face. They won't tolerate that for long.
Linus wisely works for a company that doesn't have Linux as its business, yet is willing to give him time to work on Linux, so that he doesn't get involved in this sort of conflict. Raster didn't really have that choice... maybe he'll find a position like that this time. Otherwise, he'll have to keep walking the tightrope, which means being ready to leave when he loses confidence in his management.
If you want to employ "superstars", keep this in mind. They are not a commidity! You can't pay for their labor units and ignore them when it comes to policy decisions, they won't put up with that.
Thanks
Bruce Perens