GiMP and 200 others wrote "C|Net has this story about the difficulty of getting ADSL from Bell South for linux machines, and the protest from users in the afflicted areas. " This story has been coming up a lot today. Hopefully the negative coverage will force BellSouth to relent.
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I called the 800# given in the article this morning and after listening to their muzak for 5 minutes got to talk with someone. I asked for Rich Allen but was told he wasn't in yet. When I commented that it was 10am edt and wondered what time he arrived, I was told that it was actually 7am where they were Nevada). So realizing I was just talking with a call center I started asking what the issue was with their provisioning adsl for linux. The guy kept saying he didn't know anything about it except it wasn't on their "supported" list. He clearly didn't understand any of the technical details so I asked to speak with someone else.
After another 5 minutes of muzak, a supervisor (Paul) came on the phone. His only explanation was a continual rehash of "we don't support linux." I kept repeating that I only needed them to provision the line and I'd worry about setting up the nic interface and dhcp. Same loop.
I then asked him who made policy decisions since they were just a call center. He wouldn't provide an actuall Bellsouth name and phone number but did put me on hold for a few more minutes. When he came back, he told me it was Bellsouth's policy to _not_ to support linux and that they had no plans to do so.
Its clear that calling Nevada is a waste of time when it comes to influencing policy makers.
They seem to believe their provisioning dial tone rather than IP services.
I used to work for Bellsouth, their policy was to hang up on people running Linux or Windows NT. I mean it I used sneak support to users who called about support issues with those OSes. Got busted once and got chewed OUT. I mean it it didnt matter if a Linux user called up and JUST wanted to know the DNS servers. Tech support was required to ask what OS are you using and if you said Linux then they told us to say we dont support it..'click'.
I'm saddened to hear that, but not suprised. I have had very little satisfaction, and much trouble and expense, from BellSouth, and so has everyone else I've known who has been forced to deal with them in any digital way.
I grant you I'm a little bit rural; not that much. I'm two miles from a SLC, on copper installed less than 10 years ago. From 1992 to 1997 I could not get a price from those rat bastards on any sort of a leased line... not even a nailed up POTS line. Spent dozens of hours in conversations like this:
"I wanna set up an internet site, I need a leased line to (somenumber 90 miles away). How much for a T1 or a 56K line? or DS0 and DS1 if you sell 'em by that name?"
"uh.... we'll call you back"
One year after I get an ISP (joy of joys!) who uses the same CO I do; oddly enough at just about the same time BellSouth.NOT service began to become available in our general area, my ISP's upstream T1 begins to exhibit really strange behavior. BellSouth assures all and sundry that the line is tip top, blames ISP's equipment. ISP replaces equipment to no avail until his upstream ISP adds a fat connection to BellSouth.NOT (much $$$, not peering), whereupon the problems disappear. And do not reappear when he switches back to his old equipment.
Shortly after I make an inquiry (told 'em: "I'm dreaming, but tell me what it'd cost") to BellSouth.NOT for a price on a T1, my existing ISDN line to my ISP starts showing really odd problems. It had been in service continiously for a year, then suddenly I just can't call my ISP on my ISDN line for anything from 30 minutes to 36 hours at a time. I get a dialtone, and occassionaly a single channel connect, and then it all just hangs.
If I dial a different number, it works just fine, and other of my ISP's customers using identical ISDN setups through the same CO have no problems. I just can't call my ISP on my ISDN line for anything from 30 minutes to 36 hours at a time. BellSouth's script is "It's your equipment, the line tests fine", and "we'll come fix it if you agree to pay the charges for replacing your equipment". After more bouts of this than I care to remember, we're still using the same equipment, never having had the tech's test fail to bear out our contention that the line was hosed.
I must digress a moment to say that the individual techs are always quite polite (even in the rain), fairly good about explaining the problem, and generally just good people. I've never had the slightest cause to flame one of BellSouth's wire guys (or the one wire lady I met).
They are the only saving grace their company has. I surely hope that local carrier competition comes to my area soon, so they can hire those guys and drive this last, great rotten chunk of the exploded whale carcass what was Ma Bell into oblivion forever.
I think this is normal. Most ISPs don't want customers who use Unix. They view us as dangerous. More likely to be knowledgable enough to cause trouble. This is essentially the same issue as universities that kick students off of the dorm networks for running Linux. I have personally had runins with two different ISPs because I use Linux. Another ISP was monitoring a friend of mine because he seemed "too knowledgable". I ended up working for that ISP, and we would scan the dialups for non-Windows machine, and keep at least soemwhat of an eye on those people that our scans turned up (~.1% of the user base). We definately kept track of who was using Linux or other Unixes. I didn't learn better because of what had been done to me, I just learned that it was a good idea. Ditto shell accounts, at first anyone actually using the shell accounts was kept track of (1% of the user base, although everyone had one and knew they had one), then it was just removed and those people kicked off, because they were more trouble than they were worth. Other ISPs in the area did similar things.
Never tell your ISP that you don't use Windows. You could find yourself being closely monitored. You could even find yourself subject to legal action. You will almost definately be made note of, either mentally or an actual list that is kept. When I move and call to set up an ISP account, I am as careful as when I call a hardware company for support.
Things are changing, with the popularity of Linux, but I still think the climate is generally so bad, that if you must tell your ISP that you don't use Windows, at least tell them that you have a Mac.
And as one of the persecutors, I can defend my actions. Although it may be different now, as recently as a year ago, and certainly 2-5 years ago, anyone demonstrating Unix knowledge is about 10 times more likely to be a "troublemaker". That means hacking their ISP's network or other networks, launching DOS attacks or becoming the victim of DOS attacks because of IRC confrontations, or any activity that generally makes them noticed.
by Anonymous Coward writes:
on Wednesday June 02, 1999 @07:41PM (#1869413)
Don't just call your state's Public Service Commission. It's darned important you raise polite hell about BellSouth with the PSC, but don't just do it with them.
You also want to talk to the FCC [fcc.gov] and possibly the FTC [ftc.gov] too. Several reasons why...
The FCC can force change nationwide or at the least across BellSouth territory; a PSC can only affect change in one state.
If you contact the FCC as well, they can establish that BellSouth has a pattern of not only anticompetitive behaviour, but also of not serving in the public interest.
The FCC has an increasing number of complaints against BellSouth to begin with and is already investigating them.
The FCC has the right to revoke BellSouth's common carrier status (roughly equivalent to revoking their "license" to run a phone company) if BellSouth refuses to cooperate.
I'm even going to go so far as to say that you should complain to your PSC and the FCC and FTC even if you are NOT trying to get ADSL coverage from BellSouth. BellSouth is a company that indulges in anticompetitive tactics, and deserves to be spanked soundly for many reasons...
I would complain if you fall in ANY of the above categories and are in BellSouth country:
If you have attempted to obtain ADSL service only to be told your OS is not officially supported and told that you cannot connect to the network as a result.
If you have attempted to obtain ADSL service in an area where BellSouth is offering it (see if your area is covered or planned for coverage by hitting BellSouth's webpage [bellsouth.net]) and are told that because you live in an apartment or are told for other reasons that ADSL is not available.
If you have inquired about ADSL from Bellsouth only to be told it is at some other expected time in future and the launch date keeps being pushed back.
If you have been quoted anything at all above ~$50-100/month for ADSL service. (BellSouth has often charged exorbitant prices for ADSL, assuming you can even get it; the planned price in Louisville is something like $400 installation and roughly $300/month metered.)
If you work for a telco and have attempted to sell leased line service for businesses, only to have BellSouth sell you lines at an actual profit to BellSouth and at such a markup as to make it impossible for your company to compete in terms of pricing.
If you have attempted to buy ISDN service through BellSouth and are not in Tennessee. (Costs for ISDN service in most of BellSouth country are literally so expensive that a fractional T1 line is cheaper.)
If you have attempted to buy ISDN service through BellSouth only to be told it is not available in your area because you are too far from the switching station or given any other reason.
If you are a BellSouth customer, in an area where BellSouth is offering both local and LD services (or, for that matter, local and/or LD and/or data services such as bellsouth.net or paging) and there are no local dialing providers at all. (It is illegal under the Telecommunications Act for BellSouth to offer LD or data services in any local market it services where competition does not exist for local dialup. THE FCC NEEDS TO BE TOLD IF THIS IS HAPPENING WHERE YOU LIVE.)
If you are in BellSouth territory, BellSouth offers LD and/or data services (such as bellsouth.net or paging) and there are no competitors that are as cheap or cheaper than BellSouth. (Again, they CANNOT sell LD or data services till local phone service competition exists.)
If you have been forced to buy T1 service from BellSouth or been forced to buy package deals from BellSouth for services such as caller ID or call forwarding. (There have been reports that folks who have tried to buy ADSL from BellSouth have been told ADSL cannot be installed nor can ISDN, and they have been pressured to buy a T1 line instead. Bellsouth makes its Big Money on T1 lines...BellSouth also has the habit of pricing optional services such as caller ID and call waiting so high that the mere combination of a regular phone line, CID, and call waiting is literally MORE EXPENSIVE than a $35/month package deal that comes with more services that they want to sell.)
BellSouth needs spanking on basic principle. Slashdot the hell out of the PSCs, the FCC, and the FTC and let them know just what you think of BellSouth's horrid service...best case, BellSouth is forced to clean up its act. Worst case, BellSouth loses its "phone company" license and someone more competent moves in like Unidial...hell, even US Worst would be better (at least you can actually GET AND AFFORD ADSL and/or ISDN).
The ADSL offering by Bell Canada in Ontario and Quebec will soon be very similiar. They will soon be implementing Redbacks PPPoE which would require a Windows 95/98 or Windows NT client to "login". Currently they have quite a few linux users using their ethernet ADSL offering (Called HSE - High Speed Edition). An employee posting to an internal newsgroup said that Linux users will be out of luck and as of now/before Linux was not "officially" supported anyhow. Grrr.
Using PPP over ethernet will allow them to control many things... but it sucks from a users standpoint.
Rather funny... Guess why they are implementing PPPoE? Because they will be allowing (read: forced) other ISPs to offer ADSL service. So all companies like interlog (specfically mentioned in discussions) will be forced to use this implementation of PPPoE as well in order for Bell to keep things straight. Its actually Bell's new branch "Nexxia" which is wholesaling ADSL.
Is it me or are people stupid? I've got ADSL, and I use Linux and Win98. What does the ISP care? Tell them you're going to use Windows. When I configure my PC (Linux or Win) for ADSL, I just treat it like I'm connecting to a regular network through a router. So it doesn't matter what OS I use. Or are all xDSLs different?
List win98 as the OS, when the install guys come out (and they bring a 3c vortex card), just install it yourself-- I installed my card, because they say that they are not responsible for damage to the computer. The only thing that is done at install is they add your hardware address to the database--this is done over the phone, and this is far easier to find out in Linux. Most of the install guys should be flipping burgers. I tryed three groups before I found the one with the brain in it. Call the supervisor, remember there is always another one above that one. Call the sales rep for the county and the State. Or an alternate-- there are other xDSL carriers in GA (you are in GA right?). Try that, see what comesout...the wait is about six/eight months anyway--maybe you could find a better carrier. If you are in Atlanta, call the Linux General Store [linuxgeneralstore.com], they have a 2 ghz wireless DHCP setup going...just a thought.
The biggest reason for a telco or ISP to refuse support or installation to Linux users is the fact that these sorts of decisions are made high up the hierarchy. Most managers don't know Linux, don't want to know it, and most of all still believe that Windows is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
I've worked for Compaq for a few months, and their general rule for support came down to the fact 'Linux installed on Compaq machines = no support'.
Now, I've also worked for an ISP, they started out running Linux for their servers, various people working there have made some great contributions to the open source community (the guy who wrote SysVInit works there -- hi Mike!:) and they actually *welcome* people using Linux.
There is a huge difference between a multi-million dollar cooporation and your friendly neighbourhood ISP. The main difference is management, or lack of management.
Get to the managers, you get the things done.
(I'm rambling I know, I haven't had my coffee yet).
I havent read the original story, so this may be a bit off-topic, but there is a problem with Linux + ADSM.
Namely, ADSM clients running under RH-6.0 Linux simply crash the ADSM server. Part of the problem seams to be an buffer overflow in ADSM-server, which causes it to die in pain when presented a OS-version number longer than 7 characters. Well, the standard RH6.0 kernel is:
2.2.5-15 = 8 characters.
However, taking a kernel-version with a shorter name did not solve the problem completely - therefore I am not allowed to install RH 6.0 on a machine running ADSM client at the moment.
I hope this will be cleared soon, because it is an obvious flaw in the ADSM-server, not a problem with linux.
Given that most Unix boxes will likely be left on, whereas most Windows boxes will be switched off by their owners when they are not in use. What proportion of the subnet did not respond to your scans?
Linux, an open source operating system that is increasingly gaining ground as an alternative to Microsoft's I like this quote "Linux, an open source operating system that is increasingly gaining ground as an alternative to Microsoft's Windows, is used by several million people--largely technically sophisticated computer users--in the United States. Although the small base of Linux home users will limit the impact of BellSouth's policy, critics still note that the most sophisticated users are more likely to require a high-speed Net access option like DSL." I like it that the press is starting to depict Linux users as people that know better rather than just geeks.
AT&T Worldnet has/had a similar thing. You signed up with a setup ptogram that setup some damned lame dailer and all. I looked through the ACCOUNT.TXT file, pulled out the dailup number, DNS info and login name and password and connected with my BeOS system.
Maybe they don't want to control you, but they are setting up thier signup system to be idiot proof (thus insuring that all they get is idiots).
My current ISP recently rolled out cable modems and they don't give a rats ass what OS you use. They only "officially" support Windows, but that's more a manpoer issue.
Far as I know, we here in South Dakota don't have any DSL service either (we are also served by USWest). I lived in New Mexico for awhile - if you think USWest is bad, go down to Carlsbad and just try dealing with GTE. You'll REALLY be hating life then.
You cannot "sniff" packets from your neighbor's cable modem. It's true that the data pipe is shared, but it's a better comparison to liken it to switched ethernet.
With cable modems, your download bandwidth isn't much of a problem. Cable networks were designed to spew out a crapload of digital bandwidth to the end users. Upload bandwidth is another story, and servers, obviously, will use a lot more of that bandwidth than people with normal Internet habits.
This is why cable services tend to have conditions that prohibit cable modem subscribers from running "servers."
Since they're both essentially owned by the same company and their tech support is mixed together, swbell shares these features.
I also don't think they bring a Windows laptop just because they like Windows and don't know anything about Linux; it's probably because they're using some proprietary diagnostics software that was written for Windows. Even if the laptop is just a basic working network system (no diagnostic software), it only makes sense for it to be Windows, since the vast majority of their customers will be Windows-based.
Why would this annoy your provider? IP's are IP's. They don't usually care if their customers end up with the same IP address for a long time or are assigned a new one every ten minutes.
Typically IP's are renewed by the OS/DHCP client software continually, so you keep the same IP for the entire time your system is online. When you reboot, however, you're assigned a new one like everyone else. Of course, there's also no reason why the DHCP server can't re-assign you the same IP you had before, but that's something on their end; you can't control that. Linux and Windows (or any other DHCP-capable OS) are pretty much identical in this respect; Linux just keeps its IP addresses longer on average because of its longer uptime. If your provider needs your IP address to change, they'll change it. Your DHCP client *must* check in at regular intervals to renew your IP lease. If your IP is slated to be changed, it will be changed then. Of course there's typically little reason to do this (unless they were renumbering their network).
Generally IP addresses are never changed while your system is online. This would of course result in the dropping of all of your existing network connections. Aside from an IP renumbering party, this has never happened to me on a DHCP network, though I don't have ADSL so I can't say if it's a common occurrence or not...
I didn't say it *was* switched, I was offering that as an extension to the ethernet segment analogy.
Cable modems share bandwidth, but they don't share *data*. To my knowledge, you can't sniff your neighbor's cable modem packets. That would be one HUGE privacy/security problem for obvious reasons. No real public network would go online if that were the case.
You cannot "sniff" packets from your neighbor's cable modem. It's true that the data pipe is shared, but it's a better comparison to liken it to switched ethernet.
Could you please explain how you obtain a switched network with one cable shared between all users in a segment? The only reason switches are "secure" in that sense is because the only connection point between X and Y in the switch is the instant that it connects the two through the switching fabric. Picture it as an x by x crosspoint matrix. if A1 wants to connect with G4, the switch connects JUST those two together.
That looks like the kind of thing the network wizards in this world would knock up support for in an afternoon, after all, we have ethernet, we have PPP: just a matter of pointing pppd at something other than/dev/cua0 (but probably more complex than/dev/eth0, bah) --
I had no problem with bell atlantic, since they never even saw my pc. The hardware was delivered a few days before they were schdualed to do the install, they came and installed the splitter on the line, and when they came for the pc setup, I already had it up and running. The technician was happy to not have any work to do when he got here. =]
Other ISP's will soon be offering residential ADSL service. No real ETA as of yet, but the ISP I work for plans to roll out the service in the near future (good news for me, free ADSL). I can only imagine other ISPs will follow that are a lot kinder to OTHER operating systems than just Windows Whatever.
If Sympatico's thinking about implimenting this, they're totally forgetting about Mac users as well I would assume. It would be beyond stupid.
I daresay that like myself, most other linux users who are getting DSL right now wouldn't want the telco installer to touch their box anyway.
I would be quite happy for them to leave the 10-T DSL modem sitting on my desk with a piece of paper listing DNS/Gateway/IP etc and be on their marry way.
From a customer support POV, troubleshooting on their part should be limited to standard TCP/IP stuff anyway, about which I would guess the average DSL subscribing, Linux using user would understand far more than the average Windows user anyway.
At the very least, they should not refuse to install DSL if it is destined to be plugged into the back of a linux box. I can understand them not wanting to commit the time and resources to ensure that their outsourced tech support contractors were capable of doing the linux support, but their current policy snubs a particularly large and growing percentaege of their customer base. Surely if they refused to take support calls from the linux-using subscribers to their service, they would save themselves the hassle of having to support it, but hey, at least we would have access to the service, and I'm pretty used to that kind of attitude anyway. As long as I can get the drivers/specs/physical hardware running into my house, I can be willing to give up my support contract.
I think that the idea, at least for me, is that we shouldn't have to lie about how we're going to be using their service.
Fooling them would be easy.... no problem.. but i refuse to do that. I want to stand up and say, "I'm a linux user, and I don't need to further line Bill Gates' pockets to get decent bandwidth."
As much as I may want the service, I am unwilling to sacrifice my principles to get it.
I've had no problems running Linux with M1X. Their policy is that they'll allow it, but not support it -- a distinction that Bell South should learn. Most Linux users don't need as much hand-holding anyway.
Although I do wanna say that the few times I've had to call tech support (for issues related to the line, not at all on my computer), the techs have been fairly ignorant. When they start telling me to do things like "run winipcfg to find your IP address", I say "actually, I'm not using windows, I'm using linux. but my IP address is nn.nn.nn.nn". "Oh," says the tech, "Ok. Now go to the Start Menu, and...." *sigh*
This is all really odd. I got my ADSL line from GTE back in january. (college station, tx.) They had two or three isp's that they partnered with in my area. The teleco guy came, he set up the wiring, droped off the ADSL Router and left. The ADSL Router just runs into our hub. (or single computer if you wanted). So its pretty much an ethernet network. The point of this is that it is the ISP that handles the actual Internet Connectivity. My ISP (which is very linux friendly) just gave me a static IP and other essential info and I was off running. So technically, BellSouth's saying that linux configuration is "under development" is crap. The OS matters not.
we are lucky even to have isdn access in '.au', cable availability is restricted because of the lack of competition (and u can only get dynamic ip's), isdn is expensive and the best u can get at a reasonable price is 56K modem access. even then u have to pick and choose b/w isp's.
must be a router down i cant get to the cnet (and slashdot) site but wrt to adsl, i thought at that low level of comms they should be technology neutral?
what's the reason? it a technical one or an attack of the PHB's? (pointy haired bosses).
This statement is not true. "Cable networks are just like Ethernet networks, packets can be sniffed by anybody because the protocol is not address based and everybody shares the same data pipe. "
SOME cable networks are like this, @home, Road Runner. There are many cable systems that do not have this setup. Please, keep this in mind. Thanks for trying to learn something by reading this post:)
We, the OSS community, need to offer cash rewards for evidence of cluefulness in telcos. So far, this seems to be as an elusive beast as Bigfoot or Nessy. Why are telcos so damned lame? You'd think that they would understand the shifting nature of phone service from voice to data and EMBRACE THE FUTURE. Instead, they still seemed to think data service = T1 prices. It's really sad and depressing. How many people can setup networks for their home? Apparently enough to panic BellSouth.
I wasn't satisfied with a computer generated denial because I stated Linux as my OS of choice, so I complained. Here's the intelligent reply from a human I got:
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 15:45:49 -0500 From: adsl@bellsouth.net To: dattaway@ebicom.net Subject: Re: BellSouth.net FastAccess ADSL Service Qualification Status (fwd)
Dear dattaway
Thank you for your recent e-mail message.
At this time, our technicians are configuring standard TCP/IP in Windows 95 and NT environments. Although we do not provide support for UNIX and LINUX , these platforms should support TCP/IP and Ethernet connections.
Therefore, it is possible to use ADSL with these types of systems.
For more information on ADSL access and answers to other questions you may have, please refer to our ADSL home page at the following address:
http://www.bellsouth.net/external/adsl
If you have any additional questions or comments, please e-mail us again.
There are 2 (two) ways to force BellSouth to get its head out of its tail quickly:
1) Call your state's Public Service Commission. Explain the problem to them clearly and politely and how you have tried to resolve the problem. In most places, the RBOC gets hit with actual fines if they get too many complaints lodged with the PSC.
2) But a single share of stock, then call the "Presidents HotLine" of your local RBOC. Complain that you are a Linux user **AND** a shareholder and that you are being denied reasonable service and you expect to have an action plan from the company on how they will remedy the situation.
The key points to remember are to be a) polite and 2) concise. The folks you'rer dealing with are not computer experts like you... so make sure they get a favourable 2st impression!
What worries me a little is that Microsoft has been investing in companies that offer high-bandwidth Internet connectivity, including NTL, the company that I get cable TV and telephone service from. They should be offering cable modem service in my area (Cambridge) from around October. I wonder how ready they will be to support Linux when a major shareholder has a strong interest in getting people to use Windows for Internet access?
Many of the ISPs in GTE area support multiple OSes. The ISP I just signed up with (the line hasn't arrived yet), said anything goes, and that they've connected a typewriter to the network.
I don't have Windows, nor am I willing to pay money to license it. What is a person like me to do? Methinks it might have a bigger impact if everyone who wanted the service didn't play these games, and insisted on getting it installed in their Linux machine, or not at all. Right now, they don't, and so they aren't visible as Linux users who want the service. It's quite easy to interpret as a lack of demand, then. ---
I didn't look for an email(Rushed) someone please post it and hit it hard.
Brilliant idea! I'm sure Bellsouth will cower at the feet of PacBell, SWBell, and BellAtlantic customers e-mailing them our outrage...
The only people who should directly contact BellSouth are customers who are affected by this policy. Just calling to complain on principle makes Linux users look like a mob of crying skr1pt k1dd1&z.
The rest of us, however, can make sure this gets good coverage, so BS will want to rectify the problem immediately to avoid a major PR debacle.
The ISP I do work for sometimes (when their admin breaks things) doesn't "support" any version of UNIX mostly because it's an encouragement for Joe Public user to go out and buy a copy of Linux or whatever, install it, then whine to us to provide the same level of support that Windows and MacOS users get. Rant all you want, supporting newbie UNIX users is *not* an easy task.
We have a similar situation here in Vienna (Austria): In most districts, Telekabel is so far the only company to offer affordable DSL connections via ethernet based cable-modems and they also don't offer Linux support. However, I never considered this to be much of a problem.
In fact, I wouldn't want a service engineer to touch my machine, anyway - let alone the Linux installation on it: Paranoia issues (like mainainance backdoors in binary-only drivers) aside, would you want a stranger (whose only qualification would at best be a 4-hours Linux service crash course) to mess with your hand-crafted kernel and network-configuration?
And if there is a problem, who is better qualified to diagnose it: You yourself (with all debuging tools and logfiles at your disposal) or the telephone support guy without direct access to your box (and usually also without clue).
Most Linux users are used to supporting themselves (that's what Linux and the Linux community is all about) and this should make them better customers than the average Joe Windows User: give me the necessary specs and get out of my way! I would trade "offical support" for a 30 days money-back-no-questions-asked warranty or even a small discount any day.
Say you get a line like this with DHCP but you want to hold on to the IP adress you're first assigned so you can treat the machine as quasi-static. What do you do? You set up a crontab with a few http queries to slashdot and chicks-with-schnauzers, maybe a few emails to your work address (filter them out at work.)
Now, a Mac or Win9X user would be unlikely to do this, but a Linux guy user could do it and seriously annoy a provider.
As the market for Linux grows a provider would just have to deal with it, but that's not the case right now.
A guy I know wanted to keep his DHCP-assigned address including when he was away or at work, so he could serve web pages and collect email (cable modem line), so he crontabbed a few sendmails and wgets after seeing several times that he was losing his IP address asignment whenever there was no traffic. But, thanks for all the clues, everyone.
On 99-06-02 20:10 EDT webslacker (webmaster@webslacker.com) wrote:
If you read the bottom of the article, they said they're working on getting Linux support as soon as they can, so I don't think they're trying to snub Linux users (although, how hard can it be to support Linux?).
They also used the word "configuration" earlier. And with the (very welcome) influx of Linux Newbies these days, the percentage of home users of Linux dexktops that haven't a clue as to how to connect to DSL or cable will only increase. Most of the help requests here now are about PPP configuration.
Seems to me that what is really needed, rather than a flood of complaining mail, or legal threats, is that some individual or group that has successfully connected Linux boxen to DSL or Cable put together a setup package that can be used by such vendors (with a little customization such as adding their own DNS IP's, etc).
Such a package would AFAIK include (but not be limited to):
Making sure that the kernel supports Ethernet in general and the NIC used in particular.
Make sure that DHCP is supported.
Modify configuration files to start the Ethernet and DHCP clients on boot.
Start the connection immediately (without rebooting, which should impress these M$ weenies no end).
Provide simple (WIMP + CLI) ways to connect or disconnect at the will of the user/admin of the system.
All of this should be as much as possible distro agnostic. That is, it should work equally well regardless of which distro has been installed. This is one more link in the case for standard configuration files for Linux, not the present fragmentation caused by distro vendors trying to differentiate themselves. "> Buz Cory [mailto] at buzco.ddns.org [ddns.org] "> write for FREE help [mailto] with:
Installing/Configuring Linux
Getting started with the Ada Programming Language.
Find out what your computer can really do, Linux Now! Programmer? Drowned in bugs? Ada is the answer. NOTE:This is to be considered a temporary hostname. Not guaranteed to be available more than 12 months after this posting.
Fuckin' A, buddy. I thought I was the only Linux user in the Land of Enchantment gnashing his teeth and clenching his fists over US Worst's treatment of the locals. (If you're keeping score at home, NM is the only one of USW's 13-state coverage area that has no DSL service.)
How soon before real competition comes to NM? I'll drop US Worst in a heartbeat when an option becomes available.
Yes, PacBell seems pretty Linux friendly. They provide static IP addresses, and their use policies permit the use of ADSL for servers. And while it isn't a guarantee of corporate policy, the fact that the PacBell Internet CEO is also author of the Linux ADSL How-To, this seems like an excellent indicator of their corporate attitudes.
I have had to deal with Bellsouth for a long long time. I kinda figured that they were going to be a problem about ADSL. I was planning on getting their service at one point and do the Win95 in a 200 meg partition thing so that the DSL tech could come in and install the _40 meg_ of bellsouth.net software and leave. Then reboot to Linux and be set. I was nervous about it not being dhcp or having a proprietary login method (some win95 network virtual device) and then being stuck with the setup fees. I couldnt find any info on it. When I called I got (and I quote) "A..D....uhhh what?" and never did find anyone after several hours on the phone who knew how the setup worked. Rather than chance it, I have to use a fairly expensive ISDN setup here, which works out better anyway because of static IPs. I may go SDSL with my ISP, but that's not exactly cheap:/
Anyway, what I'd like to hear of is people who pulled the 95 bait and switch to Linux when the tech leaves trick and had it work with bellsouth specifically. If it does, then people who use linux will just have to use a 95 machine to record the mac address of the net card and let the ignorant be ignorant. They're a telco. This is kind of to be expected as silly as it may be.
Nobody is asking them to support it as in phone calls from people who installed Linux because it's "kewl" and think that everyone else should help them with what they should read about. Like I said above, dont support it, but dont exclude it. If someone calls with a Win9x problem, help them. If they call in with a Linux problem, tell them to fire up Netscape on a Win9x box and hit the search engines. Linux is simply another ethernet enabled device that is perfectly capable of handling all TCP/IP services. HOWTOs come with the distros and the packages that are needed to do DHCP. I'm sorry, but if you wont take the time to read them and look for help on the internet, no Linux for you!
The problem wasnt being able to configure Linux for a normal situation. The problem was lack of information and the inability of Bellsouth to provide any coherent statements other than "fast access". What I was worried about was any virtual device drivers that might be installed in order to function and me ending up paying for an installation that I could not use.
As far as being a purist, nope. I'm not. A HUGE chunk of my administration is done to 95/98/NT machines and the "my outlook doesnt work anymore!". I use Linux for my personal workstations at home, at work, and to protect the Windows machines from themselves at all internet junctions. IP masqing is our friend:) I'd prefer Linux all the way around in my life, but realistically, it's not gonna happen that way. I'm just dealing in the best way I can.
And these open services on a Linux box are different from some moron running Wingate with no permissions because......why again? HOW many Wingate servers got scanned with those damn scripts? How many IRC bots got bounced through Windows machines running Wingate with admins who have IQs lower than their operating system version number? A person who doesnt understand basic concepts is a problem regardless of operating system.
It's not a matter of supporting. I'd say it's more of a matter of allowing. They dont want to deal with people who cant connect while running Linux. They want a simple "reinstall the software and reboot" solution for the people crying on the phone, so they say no Linux. Not "supporting" Linux is fine. Linux supports itself. Not "allowing" it wont work unless they use some funky software tunnel for TCP/IP, and that would be pretty pointless.
Why are *nix (or other non win) users likely to be troublemakers? Is there any evidence to support this view?
I would have thought that ISPs would welcome the more technically aware users (whatever OS they use) as they are likely to put a much smaller burden on support. I would imagine that providing support forms a major part of most ISP's budget. So reducing it must be a good thing.
On the positive side, US West has an unusual number of clueons when it comes to Linux: one of their field installers is even a regular on the PLUG (Portland Linux/Unix Group) mailing list -- & you can ask for specific installers. ADSL & Linux is as much of a sure thing in the Portland/Vancouver area as ADSL is anywhere.
On the negative side, US West seems to be locked in a number of petty battles with every state over its business practices. Right now it's trying to let the rural part of the state suffer while pumping money into sexier offerings in the Portland area. The PUC here is fighting with the company over substandard service in towns like Florence & Roseburg, while US West is pushing a bill to free itself from PUC oversight thru the legislature.
Think of a world where Microsoft could own more than one state legislature & a few congresscriters, & you have US West. Bleh.
So what do those of us do that don't actually have Window to install? Now, we all know that it's particularly easy to get 'ahold' of a Win9x CD, but then it wouldn't be 'legal', would it?
Besides, the idea here is easy: it's discrimination, plain and simple.
(paranoia) Who wants to bet that MS owns part of Bell South? (/paranoia)
Northeast USA Computer Show Schedule http://www.vermontel.com/~vengnce/shows
I actually (ironically) had to call PacBell DSL support today (had to turn off/on my DSL modem) and mentioned that I had posted a note on Slashdot about how well the service was working for me.
The guy responded by saying that yes, he had been reading about BellSouth DSL and Linux on slashdot earlier.
Basically, PacBell techs generally don't know about Linux (they bring a windows laptop to make sure the line is up) but they have no problem with people using Linux with their DSL. They don't even have a problem with people hanging a network off their connection (as I have done.)
And lastly, my guy actually knew something about Linux (had me do an IFCONFIG) and didn't talk to me as if I used my CD tray as a cupholder.
There's an enormous difference between supporting xDSL on Linux and Windows.
You miss my point. Wrong kind of support. What I said was:
Okay, so maybe they're not set up to do the handholding that they do for windows lusers, but do they need to?
They could, like PacBell does, say "we can't help you set up linux, but we don't care if you use it."
The comments made suggested that there was some configuration necessary on their end to allow linux clients to use the service. This is simply not the case. It doesn't matter what's on the client end, as long as the client can handle the protocols and whatnot.
Certainly, handholding for linux users will require training and so on, but my point was that a lack of skill on Bell South's part should not prevent a skilled client from using DSL with Linux without such handholding.
There are a lot of people who would never know that there weren't any tech support people sitting by the phone, as long as the service keeps working. And Linux people are that kind of people.
(Okay, so I'm not being overly eloquent tonight. But you get what I mean. Or not.)
It'd be nice to see other providers "tolerate" LINUX users, or even better, provide support.
I think Bell South probably has some people in middle management who've been told: "LINUX is a server operating system, and the only reason these people want to run LINUX is to run Quake servers and use up our bandwidth or do hacking or warez trading".
It's important that we work to correct these misconception.
It is a nice turn, but in my mind it's balanced with the fact that they essentially ignored all of the non-x86 architectures upon which Linux runs. It is an alternative to windows, but it is also an alternative to MacOS, BeOS, and quite a number of commercial unices.
I emailed BS about 3 months back, asking if they would simply install the h/w and let me get on with configuring my system. Still haven't heard from them, and BS are supposed to be quite tech-friendly here in Hotlan'a.
Also I can get the hardware from other sources so I objected to paying their something like $200 for a ADSL modem that I can get for $50, and $100 for an ethernet card which I can get for less than $30.
`We'll have something together in the next couple of months' - I won't hold my breath.
Just for grins I checked with Ameritech [ameritech.net] to see what they are saying. Their ADSL service 'SpeedPath' is currently available in Ann Arbor, Birmingham, Royal Oak, Troy, and other areas around Detroit. It's also available in Wheaton, Illinois.
They are saying no support for Unix or Linux. Mac support is comming. Here is their reply to my inquiry:
Hello John,
Thank you for contacting Ameritech.net!
We currently have no plans to support Linux or Unix with the SpeedPath service. Ameritech.net Customer Service http://www.ameritech.net
Original message follows: ------------------------- What about Linux or Unix?
At 10:32 PM 6/2/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Hello John,
>Thank you for contacting Ameritech.net! > >This e-mail is to clarify Ameritech's support of the Macintosh platform for >high-speed Internet access using ADSL technology.
>Ameritech.net SpeedPath runs from an ATM switch through ADSL to the customer's >PC. The ATM platform was selected as the interface to the PC for high-speed >service by Ameritech as well as a number of other industry leaders. In >order to connect to the service from the computer, an ATMF-25 network interface card >needs to be installed. The ATMF-25 network interface card requires a PCI slot >inside the computer. While some newer Macs do have PCI slots, the majority of >Macs do not, and instead have Ethernet network interface cards, which are not >compatible with the ATM architecture. We are currently investigating the >availability of drivers for the newer Macs that come equipped with a PCI slot, >and will let our customers know when this type of connection is available. > >Please be assured that we do intend to support the Macintosh platform in the >future, and are doing as much as possible to make that a reality. We will >alert you via e-mail when the service is available for the Macintosh. Thank you for >your patience. > >Ameritech.net Customer Support > >Ameritech.net Customer Service >http://www.ameritech.net > >Original message follows: >------------------------- > >Are you planning on supporting any OS other than Windows95? (MacOS? Unix? Linux?)
Just wanted to let everyone know in the Atlanta metro area who are serviced by Bellsouth that Gwinnett.com is also offering ADSL service in competition with Bellsouth for the Atlanta Metro area not to mention they are also cheaper. their URl is as above the Ph. # is 770-623-6374. One final note I just talked to Gwinnett on the phone,it seems they RUN LINUX on some of their servers.
I had the same problem with my current (slowly degrading) cable-modem provider. When the tech came out, I had everything ready to go. I simply asked for the modem, and the IP/Gateway information. I turned on the monitor and he said "what is this". I said "It's Linux". He said "Windows 95/98 or NT is the only AUTHORIZED operating system". I told him not to worry, that he wouldn't have to install it. He stuck around while I plugged the modem in, and configured the IP and was amazed at the speed and really liked WindowMaker. I gave him the check for installation and a CheapBytes RH Linux 5.2 CD and told him to go home and install a REAL OS =)
Anyway, getting ADSL from BellSloth in 3 weeks. I am sure a similar situation will occur with the bell tech, although he will get RH 6.0 =)
Where are you from?? Same thing happened here, Lower Bucks Cablevision bought by Time Warner, its not being sold to another company which is being takenover by AT&T.. Yes, soon my cable will be provided by AT&T; however, we are getting DSL connects from several ISP's very soon. (nunet and eventually redconnect)
Unfortunately, GTE has a monopoly of virtually the entire Los Angeles coast, and I just called them and verified that, in fact, GTE would not install a DSL connection of any kind without Windows. And they wouldn't refund your installation fee, either.
That's official policy, and the low-level service drone telling it to me had approximately the sympathy of a robot. About the best you could say is that he didn't scream at me or hang up; he just sat there in his stolid cold way saying that nobody at GTE would ever allow service to be installed for a Linux, SGI Irix or any other user. They do, however, expect Mac support "in a few months".
I don't know how these telcos survive. Looks like I need to use Covad (an alternative carrier that serves Los Angeles). I suggest that anyone else stuck in GTE land do the same if at all possible.
I might suggest buying a really cheesy old 486 computer used with Windows95 already on it, and use that for the install.
Unfortunately, I guess you have to use the same network card, so I suppose it has to at least be PCI. But still, the market value of any used computer has to be virtually $ 0 nowadays. Cheaper than buying a retail version of Windows for sure.
``Now tell me how am I supposed to remember this if I ever reinstall NT?''
Umm... You could try writing it down and keeping it in an envelope inside the computer case. Just a thought. I think I'd have some paper records on hand as the bare minimum for a disaster recovery plan. Especially if you're running NT but I always keep a printout of the partition setup (from fdisk) for all of my disks, the fstab, and some other vital stuff that I'll need in case the system ever goes south on me.
``What if I buy a new system? what if my NIC blows up?''
Yah, bummer. Also, certain software licensing schemes use the MAC address to generate an internal key that the protected software checks against a key on disk. These software packages break when you have to replace your E'net card as well.
``The IP is supposed to dynamic, but for the last two years it hasnt [sic] changed for me.''
I'm not DHCP guru, but as I understand it DHCP doesn't have to give you a new IP address each time. Only if you configure it to assign address from a pool. Just because your address hasn't changed in a while doesn't mean it won't start changing every day starting tomorrow.:)
I think comparing changing from static to dynamic IPs to applying a patch is a little ingenuous. The DHCPCD that I've used out of the box on Debian and RedHat distro's works just fine.
Now if you wanted to change your first example to finding the right service pack on the Micros~1 website, it might be more appropriate.
Remember that the ISP *can* control what you do, since they do own the network to which you are connecting. This is a business; they are operating to make money, not as a public service. They made considerable investments in their infrastructure to make DSL possible, they want to protect that.
Some apartment building owners won't let you rent from them if you're going to have a dog or if you smoke -- they own the building and want to protect their investment.
Luckily my cable company tells me that if I want to run my cable modem under Linux I can, but they're not going to support it and I have to configure and secure it myself... no big deal. I use Unix/Linux 90% of the time; I know what I'm doing. There are a lot who don't, and that's a liability many ISPs might not want to take on.
Here's the problem though with people running Linux machines on broadband connections like DSL/cable -- if people don't configure their machines correctly, they can become a massive spam relay or warez haven and never notice. This is more of a problem for cable than DSL, since the cable co. is both the ISP & the line provider, and one guy unwittingly running a server can soak up a lot of the pipe. In a lot of cases, though, too, the phone company is also the ISP behind the DSL lines, as well.
Look at your typical Red Hat install -- you have more services running then you'll ever need. Couple that with a user who doesn't know what he's doing and is running a misconfigured box, and you've got trouble. If anything he might have his machine rooted, which is his problem, but when crackers start wreaking havoc across the net from that machine, it becomes the ISP's problem. And since now ISPs can be sued when their users are caught harboring massive warez dumps, that adds one more layer onto the ISP's liability.
Plus don't forget that Linux users fit into the equation the same way Mac users do - as far as the general numbers go, we are too insignificant to require the ISP/phone/cable co. techs to have Linux or Unix training.
A professor (of CS) of mine told me about a similar problem he experienced with his ISP (SNET.net ??) when he tried to get an account for his Macintosh.
It turned out that the company policy discriminated against all but Win95/98 users, not for reasons of idealism or secret agreements with the Evil Empire, but rather...
No technicians were trained to set up anything but Windows PC's, and the ISP didn't want to invest in the needed training (a day or two for each tech, tops).
After climbing all the way up the ladder of leadership at the ISP, my professor finally talked to someone with brains, and got a reasonable answer of: "We'll train a group of techs and give the non-Win customers to them"
Since you have an independent ISP, you didn't run into the GTE.net ISP policy that jumps over the desk and into your face about linux.
I have dhcpcd running, so I will deceive GTE.net, which is no problem with GTE. I don't appreciate the insult, the degradation of sneaking linux in the back door in the middle of the night, and all.
Crosslink is an ISP which gets along with linux on GTE. They cost quite a bit more than GTE.net, though.
GTE and Bell Atlantic are merging. BA is in the next county, and Covad installs DSL there. For the same price as GTE.net, Covad ISP's, about six of them, offer much higher speed. I'm wondering if Covad can use their hardware, which is different, in GTE DSLAM's? That would be ideal.
The easiest thing to do is get your machine working with Windows, then make it work with Linux.
Maybe that's the easiest thing for some Linux users, and I guess if you just wanna avoid getting in a fight with 'em, it's the way to go. But it's still immoral, for several reasons:
Why should a Linux user have to buy a copy of Windoze, just to use it as a ADSL installation Dongle? Most Linux users probably got a "free" 'Doze license when they bought their computer, but a good portion of them probably don't actually have the software anymore, except maybe on a CD at the bottom of some cardboard box. And even if they can dig up the CD, they'll have to repartition HD to make room for 'Doze...
Not all Linux users' computers are even capable of running Windoze. Linux isn't just a x86 OS
It's really about standards. They should be supporting networking protocols, not specific pieces of software. That the whole point of TCP/IP and The Internet: comply with standards, and your stuff will work. It's all based on accepting the idea that heterogeneity is not a Bad Thing. Of all the types of businesses that exist, ISPs are the ones who should understand this the most.
If Linux users reinstall Windoze as a dongle to accomodate the installation, it just lets the company get away with doing the wrong thing. Next year, the Bellsouth dimwit that dictated 'Doze, will (insteading having gotten fired) set up a web site that requires a specific web browser, or a proprietary plugin that needs a Pentium-3, or whatever. These are the kinds of people who are going to fall for Microsoft's Protocol Decommoditization Project, and they need to either be educated or fired ASAP in order to limit the damage.
They're more than happy to run ISDN or a fscking T1 to a site with no Windows machines, so why should DSL be any different? Just give me something to plug into a router and leave me alone.
Every once in a while I'd like to see an American institution reward knowledge instead of forcing everyone to walk through the muck with the lowest common denominator.
Well to clarify a bit, what's at the other end of all your ADSL "modems" is basically an ATM switch. So it's true that you can't see anybody else's unicast traffic on your line, although you may see some broadcast traffic from users on the same subnet(it's the nature of IP). For cable, you're probably going to be able to see other people's traffic, but from the info I got from my cable company (Media General in Fairfax, VA), the roadrunner service that they're about to offer encrypts the traffic from your "modem" back to their offices, and that way neighbors can't effectively spy on each other. but that's only how it happens on my block. Other providers may not be so intelligent. -earl
Cable networks are just like Ethernet networks, packets can be sniffed by anybody because the protocol is not address based and everybody shares the same data pipe.
This is not true with ADSL, nobody shares the pipe with you. I'm exactly sure how ADSL network packets actually work, I am more familiar with the theory and singal processing end of ADSL. But the only person that receives the data is you.
This security has been a strong selling point to ADSL. That and, when 3000 people all try downloading netscape on the cable network, bandwidth doesn't go back to modem-esque speeds.
If you read the bottom of the article, they said they're working on getting Linux support as soon as they can, so I don't think they're trying to snub Linux users (although, how hard can it be to support Linux?).
They've already had their ears scratched off by Linux users, they've already said they're working on getting Linux support up, and now you wanna slashdot them?
If you're fortunate enough to live in a BellSouth area that has both ADSL and broadband service from your cable company, get the cable modem. I've heard no problems from friends in Atlanta running Linux with RoadRunner (MediaOne) or AtHome. BellSouth FastAccess, on the other hand, is generally a LOT more expensive. And if their customer service is anything like you get with their telephone side...
I got the same run around when I tried to get an MCIWorld dialup account. They sent me a CD for Win95, so I called them back: Me: I can't use the CD, I know the POP number, just give me a Username and Password. Them: We can't do that. You MUST run Windows 95, and install Microsoft IE in order to register. Me: I can't do that, I'm using Linux. Them: Then you cannot register for MCIWORLD
So then I found out that they have a 'Take it Home' page on their www site. This asks a few questions about your phone number, etc and then generates an install program along with an 'account.mci' file. You are sposed to download this to a floppy at work, then take it home and install under Win95. But the 'account.mci' file is just an ASCII text file with all the info you need - Username, password, email name, password,etc. Works fine. They are truly morons.
...and it can start with their install techs. Sound like these guys need a little enlightenment. Either that or don't tell the techs your plans.
Mediaone (now Mediaone Road Runner) never explicitly supported Linux, and according to their current Service Agreement [rr.com] still don't support Linux. There's a FAQ now for how to hook up a cable modem to Linux [unc.edu], and Mediaone, while not supporting Linux, does not explicitly prohibit its use (there are many Linuxers on Mediaone).
The easiest thing to do is get your machine working with Windows, then make it work with Linux. That's what I did with Mediaone, and I never mentioned to the tech that I was planning to use Linux. I haven't used DSL, but it can't be any harder than a cable modem.
Is this disengenuous? I suppose it is a bit, but if you can figure out how Windows makes and maintains the connection, and then duplicate that with Linux, why should they care? (Just make sure your machine's secure:-) I think that a service provider would rather have someone paying for their service rather than go elsewhere because of this kind of nonsense.
Most likely for the same reason I had Linux on my primary machine when I was a cable modem user in San Diego. the ISP (@Home) loved to port scan people, and it's just too darn easy to drop those packets if you know how to configure your system. People running servers on 9x were routinely harrased by the admins, but those of us on Linux didn't have this problem for obvious reasons.
Most of the people I know at SWB Communications don't linux because of this, and other, simmilar issues. It basically amounts to the ISP wanting to maintain control, which isn't necessarily a "bad thing(tm)", but which I personally find distateful.
Sorry if I misspelled alot of words. See below.
... "I have no respect for a man who can only spell a word one way." - Samuel Clemens A.K.A. Mark Twain
"I have no respect for a man who can only spell a word one way." - Mark Twain
When you talk to the PUC you may also want to mention the magic words "common carrier".
A telco can impose reasonable technical standards on the physical and electrical characteristics of the devices attached to its network. It cannot impose restrictions on the communications across that network.
There are a few exceptions (e.g., speech which is criminal in all cases such as kiddie porn), but denying service to Linux systems simply because they are Linux is (or should be!) as unacceptable as denying service to Spanish speakers because they don't speak English!
This is where a polite mention that the other baby bells have no problem with Linux -- and neither does this telco, when the users quietly install Linux on their systems after the installer has left -- will go a *long* way. If the telco can't tell when some users have switched to Linux, and other telcos openly allow Linux boxes, then why is the telco making this an issue?!
Telcos, airlines, freight companies, etc., are "common carriers." I suggest you read an introduction to biz law book to get a feel for just how much that involves... and how useful it is.
ISPs have not been common carriers, although some of the provisions of the CDA are close. The courts have generally held that they get common carrier type protections only to the extent that they ignore what their customers are doing, modulo purely technical issues. E.g., they can monitor your activity to ensure you aren't consuming an inordinate amount of resources. They can monitor your packets to verify that they aren't malformed or otherwise indicative of trying to break other systems (e.g., portscanning). But if they try to restrict your service because you visit the "wrong" sites they open themselves up for legal action based on what they do allow.
(E.g., assume they prevent you, as an adult, from viewing playboy.com, but accidently allow a kid to access a hardcore site. Since they have demonstrated a willingness to restrict legal access to "pornography," then they must have intentionally allowed a kid illegal access to hardcore porn, neh? The penalties are usually far worse in this case than if the ISP simply ignored the content of visited sites.)
Hotel/motels are public accomodations with something close to "common carrier" status (they pretty much have to rent a room to anyone who can pay, space available), and apartments aren't a lot different. They can ban pets, but they can't ban assistance animals (e.g., seeing eye dogs). They generally can't ban children or limit families to particular units. They can reasonably limit the total number of occupants, but they can't refuse to rent to unmarried couples while accepting married couples. In some areas they can't refuse to rent to a gay couple. They can't refuse to rent a unit on the basis of gender, age, ethnic origin, religion, etc.
But unlike common carriers, apartments can reject applications on the basis of concern that they won't be able to pay the rent & possible damages a year down the road. Apartments can restrict the way the units are used. (E.g., no commercial use.) Apartment managers generally reserve the right to enter an apartment at any time, but telcos and shippers have extremely limited rights of this nature.
The bottom line to all of this is that ADSL service is offered by a telco and is almost certainly classified as a "common carrier" service. This means that the company must provide service to *anyone* who can pay and meets minimum technical standards. Since other telcos support Linux, and BellSouth itself apparently can't tell when customers switch to Linux, there is no reasonable technical problem with customers running Linux. Therefore the company must either accept Linux clients... or it must surrender its common carrier status. If it does the latter, it can be named as co-conspirator to every crime committed which involved a Bell South telephone in *any* manner. (E.g., it could be named as a codefendant if the murderer simply used a payphone to call the gun store to verify the hours they were opened, if he subsequently purchased the murder weapon at that store. Already that store is commonly named in civil suits. The cost of defending just one such suit would hire Linux support techs for many years.)
Call with BellSouth (Score:1)
morning and after listening to their muzak
for 5 minutes got to talk with someone. I
asked for Rich Allen but was told he wasn't in
yet. When I commented that it was 10am edt
and wondered what time he arrived, I was told
that it was actually 7am where they were
Nevada). So realizing I was just talking with
a call center I started asking what the issue
was with their provisioning adsl for linux. The
guy kept saying he didn't know anything about
it except it wasn't on their "supported" list.
He clearly didn't understand any of the technical
details so I asked to speak with someone else.
After another 5 minutes of muzak, a supervisor
(Paul) came on the phone. His only explanation
was a continual rehash of "we don't support
linux." I kept repeating that I only needed
them to provision the line and I'd worry about
setting up the nic interface and dhcp. Same
loop.
I then asked him who made policy decisions since
they were just a call center. He wouldn't provide
an actuall Bellsouth name and phone number but
did put me on hold for a few more minutes. When
he came back, he told me it was Bellsouth's policy
to _not_ to support linux and that they had no
plans to do so.
Its clear that calling Nevada is a waste of time
when it comes to influencing policy makers.
They seem to believe their provisioning dial tone
rather than IP services.
I used to work for Bellsouth DOT net (Score:1)
BellSouth sufferings (Score:1)
I'm saddened to hear that, but not suprised. I have had very little satisfaction, and much trouble and expense, from BellSouth, and so has everyone else I've known who has been forced to deal with them in any digital way.
I grant you I'm a little bit rural; not that much. I'm two miles from a SLC, on copper installed less than 10 years ago. From 1992 to 1997 I could not get a price from those rat bastards on any sort of a leased line... not even a nailed up POTS line. Spent dozens of hours in conversations like this:
One year after I get an ISP (joy of joys!) who uses the same CO I do; oddly enough at just about the same time BellSouth.NOT service began to become available in our general area, my ISP's upstream T1 begins to exhibit really strange behavior. BellSouth assures all and sundry that the line is tip top, blames ISP's equipment. ISP replaces equipment to no avail until his upstream ISP adds a fat connection to BellSouth.NOT (much $$$, not peering), whereupon the problems disappear. And do not reappear when he switches back to his old equipment.
Shortly after I make an inquiry (told 'em: "I'm dreaming, but tell me what it'd cost") to BellSouth.NOT for a price on a T1, my existing ISDN line to my ISP starts showing really odd problems. It had been in service continiously for a year, then suddenly I just can't call my ISP on my ISDN line for anything from 30 minutes to 36 hours at a time. I get a dialtone, and occassionaly a single channel connect, and then it all just hangs.
If I dial a different number, it works just fine, and other of my ISP's customers using identical ISDN setups through the same CO have no problems. I just can't call my ISP on my ISDN line for anything from 30 minutes to 36 hours at a time. BellSouth's script is "It's your equipment, the line tests fine", and "we'll come fix it if you agree to pay the charges for replacing your equipment". After more bouts of this than I care to remember, we're still using the same equipment, never having had the tech's test fail to bear out our contention that the line was hosed.
I must digress a moment to say that the individual techs are always quite polite (even in the rain), fairly good about explaining the problem, and generally just good people. I've never had the slightest cause to flame one of BellSouth's wire guys (or the one wire lady I met).
They are the only saving grace their company has. I surely hope that local carrier competition comes to my area soon, so they can hire those guys and drive this last, great rotten chunk of the exploded whale carcass what was Ma Bell into oblivion forever.
So? (Score:2)
Never tell your ISP that you don't use Windows. You could find yourself being closely monitored. You could even find yourself subject to legal action. You will almost definately be made note of, either mentally or an actual list that is kept. When I move and call to set up an ISP account, I am as careful as when I call a hardware company for support.
Things are changing, with the popularity of Linux, but I still think the climate is generally so bad, that if you must tell your ISP that you don't use Windows, at least tell them that you have a Mac.
And as one of the persecutors, I can defend my actions. Although it may be different now, as recently as a year ago, and certainly 2-5 years ago, anyone demonstrating Unix knowledge is about 10 times more likely to be a "troublemaker". That means hacking their ISP's network or other networks, launching DOS attacks or becoming the victim of DOS attacks because of IRC confrontations, or any activity that generally makes them noticed.
Call the FCC too, and not just about this. (Score:4)
Don't just call your state's Public Service Commission. It's darned important you raise polite hell about BellSouth with the PSC, but don't just do it with them.
You also want to talk to the FCC [fcc.gov] and possibly the FTC [ftc.gov] too. Several reasons why...
The FCC can force change nationwide or at the least across BellSouth territory; a PSC can only affect change in one state.
If you contact the FCC as well, they can establish that BellSouth has a pattern of not only anticompetitive behaviour, but also of not serving in the public interest.
The FCC has an increasing number of complaints against BellSouth to begin with and is already investigating them.
The FCC has the right to revoke BellSouth's common carrier status (roughly equivalent to revoking their "license" to run a phone company) if BellSouth refuses to cooperate.
I'm even going to go so far as to say that you should complain to your PSC and the FCC and FTC even if you are NOT trying to get ADSL coverage from BellSouth. BellSouth is a company that indulges in anticompetitive tactics, and deserves to be spanked soundly for many reasons...
I would complain if you fall in ANY of the above categories and are in BellSouth country:
If you have attempted to obtain ADSL service only to be told your OS is not officially supported and told that you cannot connect to the network as a result.
If you have attempted to obtain ADSL service in an area where BellSouth is offering it (see if your area is covered or planned for coverage by hitting BellSouth's webpage [bellsouth.net]) and are told that because you live in an apartment or are told for other reasons that ADSL is not available.
If you have inquired about ADSL from Bellsouth only to be told it is at some other expected time in future and the launch date keeps being pushed back.
If you have been quoted anything at all above ~$50-100/month for ADSL service. (BellSouth has often charged exorbitant prices for ADSL, assuming you can even get it; the planned price in Louisville is something like $400 installation and roughly $300/month metered.)
If you work for a telco and have attempted to sell leased line service for businesses, only to have BellSouth sell you lines at an actual profit to BellSouth and at such a markup as to make it impossible for your company to compete in terms of pricing.
If you have attempted to buy ISDN service through BellSouth and are not in Tennessee. (Costs for ISDN service in most of BellSouth country are literally so expensive that a fractional T1 line is cheaper.)
If you have attempted to buy ISDN service through BellSouth only to be told it is not available in your area because you are too far from the switching station or given any other reason.
If you are a BellSouth customer, in an area where BellSouth is offering both local and LD services (or, for that matter, local and/or LD and/or data services such as bellsouth.net or paging) and there are no local dialing providers at all. (It is illegal under the Telecommunications Act for BellSouth to offer LD or data services in any local market it services where competition does not exist for local dialup. THE FCC NEEDS TO BE TOLD IF THIS IS HAPPENING WHERE YOU LIVE.)
If you are in BellSouth territory, BellSouth offers LD and/or data services (such as bellsouth.net or paging) and there are no competitors that are as cheap or cheaper than BellSouth. (Again, they CANNOT sell LD or data services till local phone service competition exists.)
If you have been forced to buy T1 service from BellSouth or been forced to buy package deals from BellSouth for services such as caller ID or call forwarding. (There have been reports that folks who have tried to buy ADSL from BellSouth have been told ADSL cannot be installed nor can ISDN, and they have been pressured to buy a T1 line instead. Bellsouth makes its Big Money on T1 lines...BellSouth also has the habit of pricing optional services such as caller ID and call waiting so high that the mere combination of a regular phone line, CID, and call waiting is literally MORE EXPENSIVE than a $35/month package deal that comes with more services that they want to sell.)
BellSouth needs spanking on basic principle. Slashdot the hell out of the PSCs, the FCC, and the FTC and let them know just what you think of BellSouth's horrid service...best case, BellSouth is forced to clean up its act. Worst case, BellSouth loses its "phone company" license and someone more competent moves in like Unidial...hell, even US Worst would be better (at least you can actually GET AND AFFORD ADSL and/or ISDN).
Bell Canada (Sympatico) soon to be similar (Score:1)
Using PPP over ethernet will allow them to control many things... but it sucks from a users standpoint.
Re:Don't worry, be happy (in Canada) (Score:1)
US West ADSL (Score:1)
I've had very good luck from US West. They didn't know what Linux was, but they didn't care.
I opted for the "user installation," so they just sent me the router and I was up and running. Yay!
What??? (Score:1)
Is it me or are people stupid? I've got ADSL, and I use Linux and Win98. What does the ISP care? Tell them you're going to use Windows. When I configure my PC (Linux or Win) for ADSL, I just treat it like I'm connecting to a regular network through a router. So it doesn't matter what OS I use. Or are all xDSLs different?
Re:Bad career move (Score:1)
List win98 as the OS, when the install guys come out (and they bring a 3c vortex card), just install it yourself-- I installed my card, because they say that they are not responsible for damage to the computer.
The only thing that is done at install is they add your hardware address to the database--this is done over the phone, and this is far easier to find out in Linux.
Most of the install guys should be flipping burgers. I tryed three groups before I found the one with the brain in it. Call the supervisor, remember there is always another one above that one.
Call the sales rep for the county and the State.
Or an alternate-- there are other xDSL carriers in GA (you are in GA right?).
Try that, see what comesout...the wait is about six/eight months anyway--maybe you could find a better carrier. If you are in Atlanta, call the Linux General Store [linuxgeneralstore.com], they have a 2 ghz wireless DHCP setup going...just a thought.
Management = Management = Management (Score:1)
The biggest reason for a telco or ISP to refuse
support or installation to Linux users is the fact that these sorts of decisions are made high up the hierarchy. Most managers don't know Linux, don't want to know it, and most of all still believe that Windows is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
I've worked for Compaq for a few months, and their general rule for support came down to the fact 'Linux installed on Compaq machines = no support'.
Now, I've also worked for an ISP, they started out running Linux for their servers, various people working there have made some great contributions to the open source community (the guy who wrote SysVInit works there -- hi Mike!
There is a huge difference between a multi-million dollar cooporation and your friendly neighbourhood ISP. The main difference is management, or lack of management.
Get to the managers, you get the things done.
(I'm rambling I know, I haven't had my coffee yet).
LINUX + ADSM = PROBLEM (Score:1)
I havent read the original story, so this may be a bit off-topic, but there is a problem with Linux + ADSM.
Namely, ADSM clients running under RH-6.0 Linux simply crash the ADSM server. Part of the problem seams to be an buffer overflow in ADSM-server, which causes it to die in pain when presented a OS-version number longer than 7 characters. Well, the standard RH6.0 kernel is:
2.2.5-15 = 8 characters.
However, taking a kernel-version with a shorter name did not solve the problem completely - therefore I am not allowed to install RH 6.0 on a machine running ADSM client at the moment.
I hope this will be cleared soon, because it is an obvious flaw in the ADSM-server, not a problem with linux.
Yours
Denis
Re:LINUX + ADSM = PROBLEM (Score:1)
Not surprised at high Unix percentage (Score:1)
Bull (Score:1)
--
Get your fresh, hot kernels right here [kernel.org]!
Sophisticated Computer Users (Score:1)
I like this quote "Linux, an open source operating system that is increasingly gaining ground as an alternative to Microsoft's Windows, is used by several million people--largely technically sophisticated computer users--in the United States. Although the small base of Linux home users will limit the impact of BellSouth's policy, critics still note that the most sophisticated users are more likely to require a high-speed Net access option like DSL."
I like it that the press is starting to depict Linux users as people that know better rather than just geeks.
Re:MCIWorld has the same anti linux Policy (Score:1)
Maybe they don't want to control you, but they are setting up thier signup system to be idiot proof (thus insuring that all they get is idiots).
My current ISP recently rolled out cable modems and they don't give a rats ass what OS you use. They only "officially" support Windows, but that's more a manpoer issue.
Re:US West ADSL (Score:1)
Offtopic on Voodoo3 support (Score:1)
Re:Where do I find windows for my Netwinder? (Score:1)
I don't believe so (Score:2)
With cable modems, your download bandwidth isn't much of a problem. Cable networks were designed to spew out a crapload of digital bandwidth to the end users. Upload bandwidth is another story, and servers, obviously, will use a lot more of that bandwidth than people with normal Internet habits.
This is why cable services tend to have conditions that prohibit cable modem subscribers from running "servers."
SwBell as well (Score:2)
I also don't think they bring a Windows laptop just because they like Windows and don't know anything about Linux; it's probably because they're using some proprietary diagnostics software that was written for Windows. Even if the laptop is just a basic working network system (no diagnostic software), it only makes sense for it to be Windows, since the vast majority of their customers will be Windows-based.
Re:One potential motive. (Score:2)
Typically IP's are renewed by the OS/DHCP client software continually, so you keep the same IP for the entire time your system is online. When you reboot, however, you're assigned a new one like everyone else. Of course, there's also no reason why the DHCP server can't re-assign you the same IP you had before, but that's something on their end; you can't control that. Linux and Windows (or any other DHCP-capable OS) are pretty much identical in this respect; Linux just keeps its IP addresses longer on average because of its longer uptime. If your provider needs your IP address to change, they'll change it. Your DHCP client *must* check in at regular intervals to renew your IP lease. If your IP is slated to be changed, it will be changed then. Of course there's typically little reason to do this (unless they were renumbering their network).
Generally IP addresses are never changed while your system is online. This would of course result in the dropping of all of your existing network connections. Aside from an IP renumbering party, this has never happened to me on a DHCP network, though I don't have ADSL so I can't say if it's a common occurrence or not...
Re:I don't believe so (Score:2)
Cable modems share bandwidth, but they don't share *data*. To my knowledge, you can't sniff your neighbor's cable modem packets. That would be one HUGE privacy/security problem for obvious reasons. No real public network would go online if that were the case.
Re:I don't believe so (Score:1)
Could you please explain how you obtain a switched network with one cable shared between all users in a segment? The only reason switches are "secure" in that sense is because the only connection point between X and Y in the switch is the instant that it connects the two through the switching fabric. Picture it as an x by x crosspoint matrix. if A1 wants to connect with G4, the switch connects JUST those two together.
Re:Bell Canada (Sympatico) soon to be similar (Score:1)
That looks like the kind of thing the network wizards in this world would knock up support for in an afternoon, after all, we have ethernet, we have PPP: just a matter of pointing pppd at something other than
--
Re:Bell Atlantic User with similar problem. (Score:1)
Don't worry, be happy (in Canada) (Score:1)
If Sympatico's thinking about implimenting this, they're totally forgetting about Mac users as well I would assume. It would be beyond stupid.
Support? (Score:1)
I would be quite happy for them to leave the 10-T DSL modem sitting on my desk with a piece of paper listing DNS/Gateway/IP etc and be on their marry way.
From a customer support POV, troubleshooting on their part should be limited to standard TCP/IP stuff anyway, about which I would guess the average DSL subscribing, Linux using user would understand far more than the average Windows user anyway.
At the very least, they should not refuse to install DSL if it is destined to be plugged into the back of a linux box. I can understand them not wanting to commit the time and resources to ensure that their outsourced tech support contractors were capable of doing the linux support, but their current policy snubs a particularly large and growing percentaege of their customer base. Surely if they refused to take support calls from the linux-using subscribers to their service, they would save themselves the hassle of having to support it, but hey, at least we would have access to the service, and I'm pretty used to that kind of attitude anyway. As long as I can get the drivers/specs/physical hardware running into my house, I can be willing to give up my support contract.
Re:Bellsouth Gave it to me and I have linux (Score:1)
Fooling them would be easy.... no problem.. but i refuse to do that. I want to stand up and say, "I'm a linux user, and I don't need to further line Bill Gates' pockets to get decent bandwidth."
As much as I may want the service, I am unwilling to sacrifice my principles to get it.
MediaOne (Score:1)
Although I do wanna say that the few times I've had to call tech support (for issues related to the line, not at all on my computer), the techs have been fairly ignorant. When they start telling me to do things like "run winipcfg to find your IP address", I say "actually, I'm not using windows, I'm using linux. but my IP address is nn.nn.nn.nn". "Oh," says the tech, "Ok. Now go to the Start Menu, and
--
uspest DSL (Score:1)
GTE ADSL Service (Score:1)
your lucky...bandwidth drought here (Score:1)
must be a router down i cant get to the cnet (and slashdot) site but wrt to adsl, i thought at that low level of comms they should be technology neutral?
what's the reason? it a technical one or an attack of the PHB's? (pointy haired bosses).
Re:Nope, not true -- post not true either! (Score:1)
"Cable networks are just like Ethernet networks, packets can be sniffed by anybody because the protocol is not address based and everybody shares the same data pipe. "
SOME cable networks are like this, @home, Road Runner. There are many cable systems that do not have this setup. Please, keep this in mind. Thanks for trying to learn something by reading this post
My kingdom for a clue (Score:1)
Nessy. Why are telcos so damned lame? You'd think that they would understand the shifting nature of phone service from voice to data and EMBRACE THE FUTURE. Instead, they still seemed to think data service = T1 prices. It's really sad and depressing. How many people can setup networks for their home? Apparently enough to panic BellSouth.
Ugh.
Re:Bad career move (Score:4)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 15:45:49 -0500
From: adsl@bellsouth.net
To: dattaway@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: BellSouth.net FastAccess ADSL Service Qualification Status (fwd)
Dear dattaway
Thank you for your recent e-mail message.
At this time, our technicians are configuring standard TCP/IP in Windows 95 and NT environments. Although we do not provide
support for UNIX and LINUX , these platforms should support TCP/IP and Ethernet connections.
Therefore, it is possible to use ADSL with these types of systems.
For more information on ADSL access and answers to other questions you may have, please refer to our ADSL home page at the following address:
http://www.bellsouth.net/external/adsl
If you have any additional questions or comments, please e-mail us again.
Adam
adsl@bellsouth.net
Start calling he Public Service Commission (Score:5)
1) Call your state's Public Service Commission. Explain the problem to them clearly and politely and how you have tried to resolve the problem.
In most places, the RBOC gets hit with actual fines if they get too many complaints lodged with the PSC.
2) But a single share of stock, then call the "Presidents HotLine" of your local RBOC. Complain that you are a Linux user **AND** a shareholder and that you are being denied reasonable service and you expect to have an action plan from the company on how they will remedy the situation.
The key points to remember are to be a) polite and 2) concise. The folks you'rer dealing with are not computer experts like you... so make sure they get a favourable 2st impression!
_DHMS
Re:Whoa (Score:1)
And to think some dork got paid 60k a year to come up with those specs.
Well, it looks as though many of their areas have real options from which to choose (DFW, LA). But Bloomington IL is screwed
-kabloie
Microsoft investments (Score:1)
Re:Whoa - GTE (Score:1)
Oh, and I can run as many servers as I want.
But what if you don't want or have Windows at all? (Score:1)
money to license it. What is a person like me
to do?
Methinks it might have a bigger impact if everyone
who wanted the service didn't play these games,
and insisted on getting it installed in their
Linux machine, or not at all. Right now, they
don't, and so they aren't visible as Linux users
who want the service. It's quite easy to interpret
as a lack of demand, then.
---
Re:Lets show them are Disappointment (Score:2)
Brilliant idea! I'm sure Bellsouth will cower at the feet of PacBell, SWBell, and BellAtlantic customers e-mailing them our outrage...
The only people who should directly contact BellSouth are customers who are affected by this policy. Just calling to complain on principle makes Linux users look like a mob of crying skr1pt k1dd1&z.
The rest of us, however, can make sure this gets good coverage, so BS will want to rectify the problem immediately to avoid a major PR debacle.
Re:If this is true... (Score:1)
Linux Users are Better Customers (Score:1)
In fact, I wouldn't want a service engineer to touch my machine, anyway - let alone the Linux installation on it: Paranoia issues (like mainainance backdoors in binary-only drivers) aside, would you want a stranger (whose only qualification would at best be a 4-hours Linux service crash course) to mess with your hand-crafted kernel and network-configuration?
And if there is a problem, who is better qualified to diagnose it: You yourself (with all debuging tools and logfiles at your disposal) or the telephone support guy without direct access to your box (and usually also without clue).
Most Linux users are used to supporting themselves (that's what Linux and the Linux community is all about) and this should make them better customers than the average Joe Windows User: give me the necessary specs and get out of my way! I would trade "offical support" for a 30 days money-back-no-questions-asked warranty or even a small discount any day.
One potential motive. (Score:1)
Now, a Mac or Win9X user would be unlikely to do this, but a Linux guy user could do it and seriously annoy a provider.
As the market for Linux grows a provider would just have to deal with it, but that's not the case right now.
But, hey, IP-6 is coming...
Apuleius.bruises.from_clue_by_four++ (Score:1)
Vapourporn. (Score:1)
A hypothetical smut-box.
Re:Actually, (Score:1)
Seems to me that what is really needed, rather than a flood of complaining mail, or legal threats, is that some individual or group that has successfully connected Linux boxen to DSL or Cable put together a setup package that can be used by such vendors (with a little customization such as adding their own DNS IP's, etc).
Such a package would AFAIK include (but not be limited to):
- Making sure that the kernel supports Ethernet in general and the NIC used in particular.
- Make sure that DHCP is supported.
- Modify configuration files to start the Ethernet and DHCP clients on boot.
- Start the connection immediately (without rebooting, which should impress these M$ weenies no end).
- Provide simple (WIMP + CLI) ways to connect or disconnect at the will of the user/admin of the system.
All of this should be as much as possible distro agnostic. That is, it should work equally well regardless of which distro has been installed. This is one more link in the case for standard configuration files for Linux, not the present fragmentation caused by distro vendors trying to differentiate themselves. "> Buz Cory [mailto] at buzco.ddns.org [ddns.org]"> write for FREE help [mailto] with:
- Installing/Configuring Linux
- Getting started with the Ada Programming Language.
Find out what your computer can really do, Linux Now!Programmer? Drowned in bugs? Ada is the answer. NOTE: This is to be considered a temporary hostname. Not guaranteed to be available more than 12 months after this posting.
Re:US West ADSL (Score:1)
How soon before real competition comes to NM? I'll drop US Worst in a heartbeat when an option becomes available.
Re:Do it anyway (Score:1)
But that costs $180.00 and feeds the monopoly that we are trying to fight.
Re:Unlike PacBell... (Score:1)
I figured this was coming (Score:1)
Anyway, what I'd like to hear of is people who pulled the 95 bait and switch to Linux when the tech leaves trick and had it work with bellsouth specifically. If it does, then people who use linux will just have to use a 95 machine to record the mac address of the net card and let the ignorant be ignorant. They're a telco. This is kind of to be expected as silly as it may be.
so dont support it (Score:1)
that wasnt the problem (Score:1)
As far as being a purist, nope. I'm not. A HUGE chunk of my administration is done to 95/98/NT machines and the "my outlook doesnt work anymore!". I use Linux for my personal workstations at home, at work, and to protect the Windows machines from themselves at all internet junctions. IP masqing is our friend
Re:Linux can be a wide open security hole (Score:1)
Re:Actually, (Score:2)
Re:LINUX + ADSM = PROBLEM (Score:1)
Grab the latest batch of PTF's for your ADSM server. I believe the fix is in....
--Yep, off topic, but understood
Troublemakers? (Score:1)
Why are *nix (or other non win) users likely to be troublemakers? Is there any evidence to support this view?
I would have thought that ISPs would welcome the more technically aware users (whatever OS they use) as they are likely to put a much smaller burden on support. I would imagine that providing support forms a major part of most ISP's budget. So reducing it must be a good thing.
Bad career move (Score:2)
Not returning phone calls as promised, and thereby getting your employeer unwanted and bad publicity is not a good career move.
Re:US West ADSL (Score:1)
On the negative side, US West seems to be locked in a number of petty battles with every state over its business practices. Right now it's trying to let the rural part of the state suffer while pumping money into sexier offerings in the Portland area. The PUC here is fighting with the company over substandard service in towns like Florence & Roseburg, while US West is pushing a bill to free itself from PUC oversight thru the legislature.
Think of a world where Microsoft could own more than one state legislature & a few congresscriters, & you have US West. Bleh.
Geoff
What if you don't have Windows? (Score:1)
Besides, the idea here is easy: it's discrimination, plain and simple.
(paranoia) Who wants to bet that MS owns part of Bell South? (/paranoia)
Northeast USA Computer Show Schedule
http://www.vermontel.com/~vengnce/shows
Unlike PacBell... (Score:1)
The guy responded by saying that yes, he had been reading about BellSouth DSL and Linux on slashdot earlier.
Basically, PacBell techs generally don't know about Linux (they bring a windows laptop to make sure the line is up) but they have no problem with people using Linux with their DSL. They don't even have a problem with people hanging a network off their connection (as I have done.)
And lastly, my guy actually knew something about Linux (had me do an IFCONFIG) and didn't talk to me as if I used my CD tray as a cupholder.
I definitely recommend PacBell DSL [pacbell.com].
Re:Actually, (Score:1)
Okay, so maybe they're not set up to do the handholding that they do for windows lusers, but do they need to?
They could, like PacBell [pacbell.com] does, say "we can't help you set up linux, but we don't care if you use it."
Doesn't take any effort on their part. Doesn't take any changes on their part.
Re:Actually, (Score:1)
Certainly, handholding for linux users will require training and so on, but my point was that a lack of skill on Bell South's part should not prevent a skilled client from using DSL with Linux without such handholding.
There are a lot of people who would never know that there weren't any tech support people sitting by the phone, as long as the service keeps working. And Linux people are that kind of people.
(Okay, so I'm not being overly eloquent tonight. But you get what I mean. Or not.)
Re:so dont support it (Score:1)
I wish I could have said it as well.
glad @Home allows UNIX-type systems (Score:1)
It'd be nice to see other providers "tolerate" LINUX users, or even better, provide support.
I think Bell South probably has some people in middle management who've been told: "LINUX is a server operating system, and the only reason these people want to run LINUX is to run Quake servers and use up our bandwidth or do hacking or warez trading".
It's important that we work to correct these misconception.
Re:Sophisticated Computer Users (Score:1)
Why am I not surprised? (Score:1)
Also I can get the hardware from other sources so I objected to paying their something like $200 for a ADSL modem that I can get for $50, and $100 for an ethernet card which I can get for less than $30.
`We'll have something together in the next couple of months' - I won't hold my breath.
No support from Ameritech (Score:1)
They are saying no support for Unix or Linux. Mac support is comming. Here is their reply to my inquiry:
Just so everyone knows there is a choice (Score:1)
metro area who are serviced by Bellsouth that
Gwinnett.com is also offering ADSL service in competition with Bellsouth for the Atlanta Metro area not to mention they are also cheaper.
their URl is as above the Ph. # is 770-623-6374. One final note I just talked to Gwinnett on the phone,it seems they RUN LINUX on some of their servers.
Getting ADSL in 3 weeks. (Score:1)
Anyway, getting ADSL from BellSloth in 3 weeks. I am sure a similar situation will occur with the bell tech, although he will get RH 6.0 =)
Re:Start calling he Public Service Commission (Score:1)
Re:BellAtlantic Infospeed FUD (Score:1)
Re:Whoa (Score:1)
That's official policy, and the low-level service drone telling it to me had approximately the sympathy of a robot. About the best you could say is that he didn't scream at me or hang up; he just sat there in his stolid cold way saying that nobody at GTE would ever allow service to be installed for a Linux, SGI Irix or any other user. They do, however, expect Mac support "in a few months".
I don't know how these telcos survive. Looks like I need to use Covad (an alternative carrier that serves Los Angeles). I suggest that anyone else stuck in GTE land do the same if at all possible.
D
----
Re:and if you CAN'T install Windows? (Score:1)
Unfortunately, I guess you have to use the same network card, so I suppose it has to at least be PCI. But still, the market value of any used computer has to be virtually $ 0 nowadays. Cheaper than buying a retail version of Windows for sure.
D
----
Re:MAC address = Lame Excuse...... (Score:1)
Umm... You could try writing it down and keeping it in an envelope inside the computer case. Just a thought. I think I'd have some paper records on hand as the bare minimum for a disaster recovery plan. Especially if you're running NT but I always keep a printout of the partition setup (from fdisk) for all of my disks, the fstab, and some other vital stuff that I'll need in case the system ever goes south on me.
Yah, bummer. Also, certain software licensing schemes use the MAC address to generate an internal key that the protected software checks against a key on disk. These software packages break when you have to replace your E'net card as well.
I'm not DHCP guru, but as I understand it DHCP doesn't have to give you a new IP address each time. Only if you configure it to assign address from a pool. Just because your address hasn't changed in a while doesn't mean it won't start changing every day starting tomorrow. :)
Re:Bell Canada (Sympatico) soon to be similar (Score:1)
Isn't there a PPPoE for Linux implementation already?
--
Re:Actually, (Score:1)
Now if you wanted to change your first example to finding the right service pack on the Micros~1 website, it might be more appropriate.
--
Re:Same old story... (Score:1)
He said that he would do the software installation
and setup for Linux, no problem.
Bell South said they refuse to install the ADSL
hardware in a building where it would be used
with Linux.
Choices in RTP? (Score:1)
My Granddad also owns some BS stock -- when's the next stockholder's meeting? Can you say "proxy?"
The ISP *can* control.... (Score:1)
Some apartment building owners won't let you rent from them if you're going to have a dog or if you smoke -- they own the building and want to protect their investment.
Linux can be a wide open security hole (Score:1)
Here's the problem though with people running Linux machines on broadband connections like DSL/cable -- if people don't configure their machines correctly, they can become a massive spam relay or warez haven and never notice. This is more of a problem for cable than DSL, since the cable co. is both the ISP & the line provider, and one guy unwittingly running a server can soak up a lot of the pipe. In a lot of cases, though, too, the phone company is also the ISP behind the DSL lines, as well.
Look at your typical Red Hat install -- you have more services running then you'll ever need. Couple that with a user who doesn't know what he's doing and is running a misconfigured box, and you've got trouble. If anything he might have his machine rooted, which is his problem, but when crackers start wreaking havoc across the net from that machine, it becomes the ISP's problem. And since now ISPs can be sued when their users are caught harboring massive warez dumps, that adds one more layer onto the ISP's liability.
Plus don't forget that Linux users fit into the equation the same way Mac users do - as far as the general numbers go, we are too insignificant to require the ISP/phone/cable co. techs to have Linux or Unix training.
Which is why Wingate is shunned (Score:1)
Same story (Score:2)
It turned out that the company policy discriminated against all but Win95/98 users, not for reasons of idealism or secret agreements with the Evil Empire, but rather...
No technicians were trained to set up anything but Windows PC's, and the ISP didn't want to invest in the needed training (a day or two for each tech, tops).
After climbing all the way up the ladder of leadership at the ISP, my professor finally talked to someone with brains, and got a reasonable answer of: "We'll train a group of techs and give the non-Win customers to them"
-- Submitted for your consideration.
Re:GTE ADSL Service (Score:1)
run into the GTE.net ISP policy that jumps
over the desk and into your face about linux.
I have dhcpcd running, so I will deceive
GTE.net, which is no problem with GTE. I
don't appreciate the insult, the degradation
of sneaking linux in the back door in the
middle of the night, and all.
Crosslink is an ISP which gets along with
linux on GTE. They cost quite a bit more
than GTE.net, though.
GTE and Bell Atlantic are merging. BA is
in the next county, and Covad installs
DSL there. For the same price as GTE.net,
Covad ISP's, about six of them, offer
much higher speed. I'm wondering if Covad
can use their hardware, which is different,
in GTE DSLAM's? That would be ideal.
Is BellSouth excluding just Linux users? (Score:1)
Either way, DSL has nothing to do with operating systems, since it's just a little router...
Re:One potential motive. (Score:1)
Re:They can certainly do better... (Score:1)
Maybe that's the easiest thing for some Linux users, and I guess if you just wanna avoid getting in a fight with 'em, it's the way to go. But it's still immoral, for several reasons:
If Linux users reinstall Windoze as a dongle to accomodate the installation, it just lets the company get away with doing the wrong thing. Next year, the Bellsouth dimwit that dictated 'Doze, will (insteading having gotten fired) set up a web site that requires a specific web browser, or a proprietary plugin that needs a Pentium-3, or whatever. These are the kinds of people who are going to fall for Microsoft's Protocol Decommoditization Project, and they need to either be educated or fired ASAP in order to limit the damage.
Re:Linux Support (Score:1)
They're more than happy to run ISDN or a fscking T1 to a site with no Windows machines, so why should DSL be any different? Just give me something to plug into a router and leave me alone.
Every once in a while I'd like to see an American institution reward knowledge instead of forcing everyone to walk through the muck with the lowest common denominator.
Re:Nope, not true (Score:1)
For cable, you're probably going to be able to see other people's traffic, but from the info I got from my cable company (Media General in Fairfax, VA), the roadrunner service that they're about to offer encrypts the traffic from your "modem" back to their offices, and that way neighbors can't effectively spy on each other.
but that's only how it happens on my block. Other providers may not be so intelligent.
-earl
Nope, not true (Score:1)
Cable networks are just like Ethernet networks, packets can be sniffed by anybody because the protocol is not address based and everybody shares the same data pipe.
This is not true with ADSL, nobody shares the pipe with you. I'm exactly sure how ADSL network packets actually work, I am more familiar with the theory and singal processing end of ADSL. But the only person that receives the data is you.
This security has been a strong selling point to ADSL. That and, when 3000 people all try downloading netscape on the cable network, bandwidth doesn't go back to modem-esque speeds.
simon
Actually, (Score:2)
Re:Lets not (Score:2)
BellSouth vs Broadband (Score:1)
MCIWorld has the same anti linux Policy (Score:1)
Me: I can't use the CD, I know the POP number, just give me a Username and Password.
Them: We can't do that. You MUST run Windows 95,
and install Microsoft IE in order to register.
Me: I can't do that, I'm using Linux.
Them: Then you cannot register for MCIWORLD
So then I found out that they have a 'Take it Home' page on their www site. This asks a few questions about your phone number, etc and then generates an install program along with an 'account.mci' file. You are sposed to download this to a floppy at work, then take it home and install under Win95. But the 'account.mci' file is just an ASCII text file with all the info you need - Username, password, email name, password,etc. Works fine. They are truly morons.
They can certainly do better... (Score:2)
Mediaone (now Mediaone Road Runner) never explicitly supported Linux, and according to their current Service Agreement [rr.com] still don't support Linux. There's a FAQ now for how to hook up a cable modem to Linux [unc.edu], and Mediaone, while not supporting Linux, does not explicitly prohibit its use (there are many Linuxers on Mediaone).
The easiest thing to do is get your machine working with Windows, then make it work with Linux. That's what I did with Mediaone, and I never mentioned to the tech that I was planning to use Linux. I haven't used DSL, but it can't be any harder than a cable modem.
Is this disengenuous? I suppose it is a bit, but if you can figure out how Windows makes and maintains the connection, and then duplicate that with Linux, why should they care? (Just make sure your machine's secure :-) I think that a service provider would rather have someone paying for their service rather than go elsewhere because of this kind of nonsense.
I bet I know why... (Score:3)
Most of the people I know at SWB Communications don't linux because of this, and other, simmilar issues. It basically amounts to the ISP wanting to maintain control, which isn't necessarily a "bad thing(tm)", but which I personally find distateful.
Sorry if I misspelled alot of words. See below.
- Samuel Clemens A.K.A. Mark Twain
"I have no respect for a man who can only spell a word one way." - Mark Twain
Also mention the magic words "common carrier" (Score:2)
A telco can impose reasonable technical standards on the physical and electrical characteristics of the devices attached to its network. It cannot impose restrictions on the communications across that network.
There are a few exceptions (e.g., speech which is criminal in all cases such as kiddie porn), but denying service to Linux systems simply because they are Linux is (or should be!) as unacceptable as denying service to Spanish speakers because they don't speak English!
This is where a polite mention that the other baby bells have no problem with Linux -- and neither does this telco, when the users quietly install Linux on their systems after the installer has left -- will go a *long* way. If the telco can't tell when some users have switched to Linux, and other telcos openly allow Linux boxes, then why is the telco making this an issue?!
Re:The ISP *can* control....bullshit (Score:2)
ISPs have not been common carriers, although some of the provisions of the CDA are close. The courts have generally held that they get common carrier type protections only to the extent that they ignore what their customers are doing, modulo purely technical issues. E.g., they can monitor your activity to ensure you aren't consuming an inordinate amount of resources. They can monitor your packets to verify that they aren't malformed or otherwise indicative of trying to break other systems (e.g., portscanning). But if they try to restrict your service because you visit the "wrong" sites they open themselves up for legal action based on what they do allow.
(E.g., assume they prevent you, as an adult, from viewing playboy.com, but accidently allow a kid to access a hardcore site. Since they have demonstrated a willingness to restrict legal access to "pornography," then they must have intentionally allowed a kid illegal access to hardcore porn, neh? The penalties are usually far worse in this case than if the ISP simply ignored the content of visited sites.)
Hotel/motels are public accomodations with something close to "common carrier" status (they pretty much have to rent a room to anyone who can pay, space available), and apartments aren't a lot different. They can ban pets, but they can't ban assistance animals (e.g., seeing eye dogs). They generally can't ban children or limit families to particular units. They can reasonably limit the total number of occupants, but they can't refuse to rent to unmarried couples while accepting married couples. In some areas they can't refuse to rent to a gay couple. They can't refuse to rent a unit on the basis of gender, age, ethnic origin, religion, etc.
But unlike common carriers, apartments can reject applications on the basis of concern that they won't be able to pay the rent & possible damages a year down the road. Apartments can restrict the way the units are used. (E.g., no commercial use.) Apartment managers generally reserve the right to enter an apartment at any time, but telcos and shippers have extremely limited rights of this nature.
The bottom line to all of this is that ADSL service is offered by a telco and is almost certainly classified as a "common carrier" service. This means that the company must provide service to *anyone* who can pay and meets minimum technical standards. Since other telcos support Linux, and BellSouth itself apparently can't tell when customers switch to Linux, there is no reasonable technical problem with customers running Linux. Therefore the company must either accept Linux clients... or it must surrender its common carrier status. If it does the latter, it can be named as co-conspirator to every crime committed which involved a Bell South telephone in *any* manner. (E.g., it could be named as a codefendant if the murderer simply used a payphone to call the gun store to verify the hours they were opened, if he subsequently purchased the murder weapon at that store. Already that store is commonly named in civil suits. The cost of defending just one such suit would hire Linux support techs for many years.)