GEEK Unions? 214
Aaron Scott writes that he's the "Head Geek" at his high school, which means that he works for the tech administrator doing IT work and coordinating the other work study nerds.
"As you may imagine, we catch a lot of flack from other students because we spend so much time and energy on the computers at school, not to mention our own machines at home," he explains.
When this happens, he says, "one of the things we do to shrug it off is to joke that if they didn't have us to keep their computers running, the school would cease to function." This belief, he says, is not altogether untrue.
Aaron says he was watching the movie "Dune" one light last week "It occurred to me that what is true of my school is also true of other organizations, from small businesses to the federal government. Just like the Freemen in the movie stopped the universe by stopping the export of Spice, if computer geeks stopped working en masse, the whole country, and even the world, would grind to a halt." Aaron was thinking in particular of how geek politicization might help fight actions like the recent Australian government efforts to censor websites in that country.
How would this work, wondered Aaron? Could some Teamster-like union arise to work on matters of importance to geeks?
Aaron's fantasy, as it happens, is widely shared. When geek began to become a positive rather than negative term in the 90's, geeks and nerds alike began to talk about some form of Geek Union to battle the various corporations thundering onto the Internet, the blockheads in Congress with a penchant who passed the Communications Decency Acts to curb free speech, (or who, more recently wanted to post the Ten Commandments in schools to ward off Geek Evil).
There was talk, too, of a Geek Truth Squad to combat phobic media reporting about the Net, from mis-representations about what hackers really do and are to the alleged perils of game-playing, to the supposed ubiquity of perverts and pornographers online.
One manifestation of that early movement - geekforce.org - surfaced again during the post-Littleton hysteria.
Efforts to organize geeks have proven difficult. The Net population is idiosyncratic, wildly diverse. Many find the very idea of a geek organization too similar to the posturing and rule-making of the offline world. Efforts to form broad-based political communities online have all been quickly done in by epidemic online hostility. Anybody's who's tried to participate in public discussion of online issues knows to expect flamers swarming like fire ants.
But Aaron has a point, and it's significant one, particularly timely around the Fourth of July. Geeks are increasingly becoming a separate entity. They are no longer on the margins of life; they are at its epicenter, running the systems that run the world. Few corporate, political, governmental or educational institutions could function for long without them. And many, like Aaron, yearn for some sort of political community.
Aaron is definitely in the vanguard of a social revolution. There are "Head Geeks" at every school, college, modern company and organization in every technologically - advanced country in the world. They are now among the world's only truly indispensable workers. Nobody would have paid much attention to them a decade ago. Now, people mutter at their special privileges (they never, ever have to wear ties, and can wander school hallways at will) and at the fact that they are increasingly relied on to operate the system - whatever it is - that governs work and business.
If they ever did band together, they would constitute a powerful, communicative and influential political force, especially as Presidential elections edge closer. It might even make the increasingly-persistent efforts to corporatize, profit from, politically exploit fears of, and censor the Net politically untenable. If even a small number of geeks around the country were to call in sick, for example, the next time Congress passes some noxious law curbing free speech, or journalism promoted unthinking hysteria as it did post- Littleton, our political and journalistic institutions might, however briefly, be forced to act rationally and sanely. Idiocy and hypocrisy would become dangerous instead of politically advantageous: they'd cost money and disrupt business.
Maybe Aaron's idea could work this way: Geeks could form a Union. They could agree upon a narrow, simple agenda: freedom, the sharing of technology and the advancement of neat stuff.
It might work, as long as the geeks don't ever meet in person, ask for or pay dues, adopt by-laws or regulations, or even think about choosing leaders.
Sane Hours? (Score:1)
After you've worked a sane number of hours that day -- get up and walk the hell out. Just Go Home.
If you get yelled at for not working yourself to death for the almighty company... so? Just regard it as a signal to put your resume out. These days even the half-wit coders who don't bathe can get jobs.
Few, if any, companies will really go bankrupt if the project is completed one week later than the stupid sales drone promised it to the clueless client. Almost all "deadlines" are completely artifical and meaningless.
The only reason managers try to get programmers to work insane hours is because so far it's worked. It's long past time that we stopped doing it.
Missing the Point? (Score:1)
This is not to say there are no problems with this idea. It would require much more thought then has gone into it, based on the article. A few come to mind right off. It would have to be well organized. Mailing lists and web pages would be required to notify everyone about the planned action and why it is taking place. Perhaps we would need a voting system so we could decide what was worthy of risking our jobs over. We would need a huge member base to make this work, otherwise those who do leave just get fired and replaced. Many of the same problems workers in other unionized fields have. I would also like to point out that the article specificly said no dues and no "leaders".
Please people, read and think, don't just fire up the flamethrower because it says "Katz" at the top!
Re:"Few" indispensable vocations? (Score:1)
That's not to say that a loose, politically vocal federation wouldn't be helpful. Rather than focusing on economic conditions (which, perhaps to an insane degree, favor those in CS -- most others, even those especially bright, don't have a hope of getting $70+K/yr almost immediately after graduating w/ a Bachelor's...), it could focus on politics. Complain 'bout pay? Nah.
We've all seen silliness ranging from CDA-type legislation in the US and elsewhere, to encryption bans, to everything else. That's at least partly due to non-technically-proficient leaders, and partly due to non-technically-proficient citizens. In either case, an organization *might* be able to make a difference. Informal lobbying, for instance, might help educate legislators who do not already have a firm grasp of the issues. The writing of documents that are understandable to politicans and citizens without, say, having read Tanenbaum's "Computer Networks", or the "dinosaur" OS textbook could be helpful. The active combatting of disinformation with facts might do wonders.
Ever heard of the IEEE? (Score:1)
The IEEE has not acted as a union for wage issues as far as I know, but does get involved in politics when issues like the CDA come up.
It isn't exactly what people here are asking for, but it is a large group of geeks all around the world, organized for various purposes. It could at least provide inspiration, if not already being the finished product.
-hersh (don't have my login set up at work)
Re:Missing the Point? (Score:2)
Re:We don't need no stinking unions (Score:3)
Geeks don't command anything. We are the labor that builds products and keeps the systems running much like many of the other occupations mentioned above. Granted we are *highly* skilled and educated laborers with a diversity that allows us to get ahead by the three methods you describe, but you can only get so far. You, individualy, will never be the "boss' or "commander" or "policy setter" or any other position that wields the power to make signifigant changes (i.e. management or operations). If you think that is not the case, explain to me how you would go about enacting change *individually* other then walking out the door. We don't decide when and who to layoff and what our salaries are to be (granted we can negotiate and choose not to take a job, but thats not nearly the same).
If you do not beleive me you need to spend several years consorting with management, sales, marketing, accounting, etc... The image that they possess of us will *truly* frighten you. Attitudes of: no employee is irreplacable (which is truer then you think in say 95% of the cases), younger workers are *far* more productive then ones who are 20 years older, younger workers are far cheaper (timewise and moneywise and overheadwise) then older workers, why pay for the wise, experienced, and business savvy worker at twice the price when I can hire two much less experienced, naieve ones who will outperform, outwork, have more current knowledge then the old at just a little bit higer price (say 85k vs 2x50k, but instead of 40-60 hours a week, we get 80 to 120!). Hearing stuff like the makes me quake in my boots. Remember folks compared to the youngings there are very few 40+ year old techies out there.
This is a boom time for us. We should make the most of it. Perhaps not a union but a professional organization that accredits us like the Bar association, or the AMA, and forces tech workers to keep their skills current and ensures the quality of our work. From that we could gain lobbying forces and political power.
Anti-organisation people are bitching about mediocratity and seniority set slary levels?
Let me ask you something, a semi-literate auto worker who punches buttons on a machine all day should probably be making $7/hr, but the industry average is $22/hr, with nearly the *best* health benefits in the USA. Thats over 3x salary inflation. Think about what that would be like for organised technical labor. Do not know about you, but I would not mind making a minimum of $60/hr.
Tell me what will happen when (not if) the economy takes a dive.
Will management say "hmmm we can keep the folks we are sponsoring for visas and not give them raises this year, they are not going anywhere else" (don't take this a a nationalistic slur, I have actually heard a proiject manager and a operations manager refer to visa'ed employees as "indentured servants").
Will they say: "hmmm, we need to make cutbacks, layoff 95% of all labor making $60k+, include the contractors in that lot too" (if you think contractors do well in recessions, think again).
Or will they say "gee lets kill off our marketing and sales team, who cares if nobody knows about or buys our products, that wont hurt us".
Or "we could lay off our top earning sales guys, imagine the bonus money we would save! Of course our top sales guys usually do bring in the most amount of money."
Or "lets gut our accounting department so we cannot track any of our revenue?"
Think about it, and think about it hard. They don't think like we do, so we have to think like them.
"Few" indispensable vocations? (Score:5)
Ever read a short story titled something like "Keep the Roads Rolling", featuring workers trying to blackmail society?
Let's think about this. How 'bout:
* teachers
* sanitation engineers
* police
* soldiers
* highway maintenance
* farmers
* truck drivers
* roustabouts
* telecom workers
* food/drug testers
Well, guess none of them are necessary and geeks are "special". Wow! *SMACK*
No, NO a thousand times, NO! (Score:1)
The two obvious (and historically most effective) types of 'organizations' Katz seems to be talking about are Labor/Trade Unions, and Political Parties. They each suck, in their own special ways. Neither meshes well with Katz's cliche'd "internet culture", either.
First, the Union. A group of like (and often simple) minded people, joined together to further a common goal, and direct the will of The Management. Unions have lost much of their luster and power these days, for several reasons. The most common is that in general, they have outlived their usefullness. Unions were originally founded to fight for human working conditions and above-poverty wages for steel and mine workers. Strikers and members in general had to be willing to FIGHT for what they wanted, often physically. They had to be willing to risk their jobs if Management stood out a strike. Fact is, for someone to be willing to do this, their job has to be pretty much a piece of shit. I just can't see Joe Happy Web Master going to twice weekly meetings, holding candlelight vigils, or going on strike, let alone beating the hell out of anyone who dares cross him. Sorry folks, but Joe Happy Web Master and his cousin Bill Happy Programmer can't complain about much more than their company car being a Saturn rather than a BMW. They're not going to fight when they've already WON, in the grand scheme of things (stock options, flex hours, cars, money, casual dress, desk job in A/C). Unions also have also just flat out become obsolete for most professions, with a few noted exceptions. A coal miner is a coal miner is a coal miner, no matter where, or what title he's given, and at the Union heyday, there were lots and lots of coal miners. Now, a C programmer refuses to associate with a "webmaster" who doesn't like a "HTML monkey" who hates "java jockeys" etc. There's just not enough broad-band "tech master" type positions out there. You'd be hard pressed to get 50 techies in a room to even agree on a cause to fight for, let alone support eachtother in fighting for it.
Next, the Political Party. A group of people sharing a common general view of government in its ideal shape. This doesn't fit exceptionally well in this case, but because it was brought up in above posts, I'll ramble about it. A successful Tech Party is even less likely than a Tech Union, because of the over-specialization thing, again. For techs, it's not a question of "left wing" or "right wing", it's much more often "how many bits of encryption" or "how many visas". You'll never see a stable party platform with no BIG planks in; especially when the one or two BIG planks are still not important to the voting masses. No support == no success == no party. The other big problem is that most techs are already politically aware, and lean towards one of the major parties (at least, in the USA). You'll not tear enough of them away, because a Tech Party just woudln't have a stand on IMPORTANT issues, like "right to die" "abortion" "death penalty", etc. Political parties generally preach IDEALS (ex: "big govt" and "little govt"), while Tech Party would preach a few selected special issues. It would have about as much success as a Farmers of America political party. That is to say, not enough to count.
So, what CAN we do? That's easy. Work the system. Over and under, inside and out. Call your representatives, write editorials, explain yourself to the layman down the street. Make yourself heard as an INDIVIDUAL; and you'll win over the MASSES. We're a varried group; too much so to band together as a Union or Party. But, when a bunch of INDIVIDUALS speak their mind, people take notice, and the popular opinion IS acknowledged. More importantly, the popular opinion is BENT. Slashdot as a case-in-point, anyone?
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Reading comprehension levels of Slashdot users... (Score:3)
Learn to read. Read to learn.
- A.P.
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"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
Re:Atlas Shrugged (Score:1)
But no, not at all. The heroes in Atlas Shrugged didn't strike to enhance their prestige and position in the world, they withdrew from it because they were so disgusted by it.
And Rand would despise any sort of union... *collective* bargaining, shudder.
This ain't The Jungle... (Score:2)
- Unions really came about because the workers worked in very harsh conditions, for meager salaries. We sit in our nice, air-conditioned labs and offices, and we make good money doing it.
- 'Geeks' in general, are a fairly anti-authoritarian group. They won't take sh!t from either The Man nor the corrupt union leader.
- The Western system needs lots of people.. The 'geeks' would be screwed if the electrician's union went on strike. Or the carpenter's union. Especially the airline unions.. Get the point? You may be getting a hard time from the non-geeks, but without them, you'd be completely screwed.
Open your mind before your software.Don't Unionize, For a political party! (Score:1)
Why don't you Americans form a Third Political Party...Think of it as SysAdmining a Very Large network!
ttyl
Farrell J. McGovern
Montreal, Quebec,
(for now) Canada
Why Do I Have a Bad Feeling About This? (Score:1)
I can see this being billed as a "techno-militia" and the people murdered by the FBI and NSA.
Just think about this for a minute. They will compare them to the guys at Columbine. They will portray them as unstable, antisocial, and dangerous.
This WILL happen if geeks unite.
LK
Zooom!! As it passes over our heads! (Score:1)
Hmm.. once again it seems as if Slashdot user the world over have completely missed the point of the story. Like that's never happened before. Anyway, I suppose just to be fair I should address everything, even the slighly off topic stuff.
First, a political organization of geeks is ludicrous. We are all to solitary and way to self important(myself included) to want to follow the whims of any organization, even if it is dedicated to our benefit. Even if it was just a vote situation with no leaders, I'm sure that some one would squabble over any position of leadership or power, right down to who would master the website.
Second, a union of geeks(no matter how off topic) is even more ludicrous. It wouldn't happen, for the same reasons listed above, especially if we had to pay dues. We'ld end up just like the idiots in congress, or worse, like the teamsters without the flannel and the diesel stink.
So, there is my point. I'm sorry if I stereo-typed, oh well, that's how it goes. This is a forum, after all.
"They teach us to drop fire on people, but they won't let us write f*ck on our airplanes because it's obscene."
Re:Geek Union Strikes (Score:1)
I faced something lke this. I was a contractor for a Major Telco and within a division of the company, they had about 200 hp workstations and 7 or 8 servers. the problem was the main sysadmin was a nt freak. So each of the 200 workstations had software installed locally, no dns ( they used host files) and no nis. Basically it was hell. I got in there implemented nfs, nis, and dns and everything started to work perfectly. So the NT admin canned me, for not being productive. To my knowledge the network is still working fine after a year. They now pay a var to install softwre/ user maintenance.
This event pursuaded me to get out of the contracting field. So I have a far better job now
Re:Why Do I Have a Bad Feeling About This? (Score:1)
It would begin with character assassination before they got as far as physical assassination. This is why I predicted that they'll be labeled as a "techno militia".
In Waco, the Branch Davidians were known as quiet people who kept pretty much to themselves. The FBI enforced a TOTAL media blackout so that they could demonize them without any dissenting information being released.
Why do you think that they'd behave in a different manner when dealing with geeks?
LK
It never pays to assume such things (Score:1)
mrgrumpy has engaged in an ad hominem to discredit my views, and has also misrepresented my argument.
The ad hominem part is not only unwarranted, but also inaccurate. I do not come from the geographical area he suggests, although he may consider Epping to be near enough for jazz. I also did not attend a private school (Epping Boys' High is where I earned my emotional scars), and I do not have wealthy parents.
As for never having had a real job, I was briefly in the employ of a certain computer assembler (which shall remain nameless), working on their production line for the paltry sum of $7.50 per hour, so I've had first-hand experience of the kind of dreadful working conditions of which mrgrumpy speaks. Even now that I have risen above that level of employ, I am not immune to the vagaries of the marketplace. I am currently between jobs, having been retrenched by my previous employer as the result of a "restructure".
As I said, I believe mrgrumpy's objections in this area are not only highly irrelevant, but also completely wrong.
It may be that unionism is a necessary thing amongst certain demographics and labour groups. If this is true, then it is proof to me that these marketplaces are very sick indeed. Unionism is an evil, and if it happens to be the lesser evil then the marketplace has some very deep-rooted social problems. I will concede that unionism might be the lesser of two evils, but I will not concede that unionism is itself a good.
As for the specific issue of VSU, I am well familiar with there being no terminals available in the labs at university. One tends to learn these things fairly early on in one's academic career and make allowances for it. I haven't been locked out of a class due to lack of seating, although I've sat in my fair share of asiles.
Once again you assume that unionisation is a fair answer to these sorts of problems, and I simply disagree. The university system is severely broken, and the problems you mention are a demonstration of that fact. That student unionisation must be compulsory demonstrates the severity of the problem, assuming that compulsory unionisation is indeed the lesser evil.
I lack the time and inclination to give a dissertation on the problems with university, but I have no inclination to fight the bureaucracy if they want to make university an unworkable proposition. In short, I agree that university sucks, but I disagree that unionism is a valid answer to the problem. So give me VSU and stop wasting my fees.
Re:Slashdot has no central authority? (Score:1)
I would make the following points in rebuttal. CmdrTaco does not have absolute power over what the Slashdot effect hits because:
- Slashdot is not the only entity that produces the Slashdot effect, merely the most notable.
- CmdrTaco is not the only one with top-level posting privs.
- Even second-level posts (by the unwashed masses) can produce the effect if they are sufficiently in tune with the community feeling on the matter.
I'll concede that CmdrTaco has some influence over where traffic goes and what gets reported as news for nerds, but the tsunami level events (like Windows Refund Day, say, or Linux itself) are too big to control. Slashdot itself is an emergent property of the community, and I think the Tacomeister knows it. Sure it's a lot of Rob's hard work that has made it look and work the way it does, but it is immensely popular because the concept strikes a chord in the disorganised masses, not because of the decor.And as for cats, my cat tells me when it wants to be fed in no uncertain terms. The only power the tin-opener wields is as a projectile for temporary relief of that horrible din.
Much dreamage, no? (Score:2)
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Geek Union Strikes (Score:2)
:)
Re:finally (Score:1)
Re:Technical Trade Unions (Score:1)
Public education was around long, long before the 1930s. Thomas Jefferson was a proponent of public education, and it became commonplace in the 1800s.
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We don't need no stinking unions (Score:1)
Re:We don't need no stinking unions (Score:1)
1. They allows old obsolete workers keep their jobs at the expense of young freshly trained and energetic ones who will do it for less, that makes sense, NOT. Older workers have the value of experience. If that experience is no longer relevant...
2. Companies are in the business of providing workers with jobs at 3 times the price that they worth in a free market situation, not to make a profit for their stockholders, WRONG. Over inflation hurts everyone.
3. In bad times, companies must continue to pay unionized workers full salary and not trim excess labour or dead wood. Lets just let them go out of business instead, then no one has a job there.
Sorry but the facts of life are that companies exist to make money for the people that own them. If the company does not make money it will cease to exist. A good company also does well by the people that work for it and benifits from doing so. Not all companies are good and they suffer for it in may ways. But the fact remains that your value to the company is proportional to your percieved ability to contribute to the bottom line. If your percieved value is not high enough to get what you want. Well it's up to you do something about it. Banding up with your buddies to say, "we're going to shut you down until you pay us more than you think we are worth" is not the right answer.
Any other suggestions? (Score:1)
One problem with spontaneous unity is that it often leads to little real effect. Not many people care that they've just ticked off a bunch of geeks. Sure, maybe they will try to take your web server down or some such thing, but overall, not much impact. Unless there is some danger to their political survival, politicians don't really care who they tick off. Making the big companies mad will definitely hurt them in a tangible way. They will lose votes and a lot of campaign contributions. Is there a way to make annoying geeks a bad political move for these guys? I don't know. You're right about geeks being like cats. It's tough to get them to do anything in unison in order to have a real effect.
A few geeks walking off the job as a response to a bad political decision wouldn't do anything to help. Those few would be fired and replaced as a warning to others. Unless it was a massive walk-out, there would only be bad results for geeks. Since a massive walk-out would be extremely difficult to organize, for all the reasons Jon and the above poster have pointed out, there isn't much danger to politicians and businesses.
About the only thing I can think of that might help is to promote voting among geeks and designate a non-partisan website as the central repository for all the facts on the candidates and how they have voted on issues and what their public positions are on other important issues (geek-related and otherwise. Their are lots of important issues that aren't just related to computers and e-issues). There are already several sites attempting to do this, but they are incomplete at best. One or two of them need to really get their act together and become complete sources for this information. Perhaps then we can have a clearer view of the candidates and at least vote for the lesser evil.
Political union, not labor union (Score:3)
I notice that most people are thinking (unfavorably) labor union here. I agree that most geek jobs are better than average. The exceptions can be delt with locally since unlike factory work, replacement employees could take weeks to come up to speed on a project if everyone walks.
Political unions are another matter. Geeks to polititians: 'You want key escrow huh? Imagine that, the entire worlds newsgroups accidentally got dumped into your email'. 'That's your final word on strong encryption? Now I wonder why *.com quit working?'.
Or perhaps conversations like:
The examples are based on the US, but could apply anywhere. "I really don't know why the filters are blocking everything but porn and the PeeWee Herman home page, I could DISCONNECT them for you."
The question in my mind is wether or not a Geek political union could get enough solidarity on ANY issue to pull it off. As someone here pointed out, the general lack of solidarity would help avoid silly responses to silly issues.
Thoughts on unions (Score:1)
I don't see anything unreasonable about something like a virtual coffee house, or open, free discussions. Essentially, that's a lot of what Slashdot already provides.
Professional Organizations and Unions (Score:1)
The NEA started as a professional association but became a union. The AFT has always been a union.
The unions that started in the 19th century were all craft unions. They were designed to protect skilled employees from the depredations of unscrupulous owners. Craft unions are very successful as long as the craft is in demand. Craft unions that overreach tend to encourage companies to automate the overreaching craft out of their jobs. Craft unions were an extension of the concept of the guild, but guild members were self-employed.
Hockey, baseball, football and basketball are all unionized. You may not like the disruptions caused by the lockouts and strikes, but those unions work for their members.
same place, similar idea, different time (Score:1)
I read quickly through the posts, and many of the same ideas came up again. Frustratingly, it seems that many have misread the article (which was endemic to mine too) especially in the way that "union" is interepreted (I certainly wasn't thinking of the UAW when I wrote my article, I don't think Katz was thinking that either.)
Many people point to the IEEE and ACM as organizations something like but not exactly what both our articles propose. After reading the posts to this one, I think that a professional association, like the AMA is more desired over the former two.
Contrary to what many say, I believe that geeks can indeed come together in the form of such an association. While some were interested as a result of my article, I don't think the timing was right.
Damn...I even had a little name for it too...oh well.
Geek Union != solution (Score:2)
It won't help the writer of this essay from being laughed at or teased by high-school students -- and if that's happening, I doubt its the result of being a geek, but more the result of the way he's presenting himself to people.
It won't help in jobs. Unions help only when a workforce is in a position to be exploited by management. Once that situation is resolved, they just serve to foster mediocracy, by making it difficult for companies to fire incompetant workers.
There are more open positions in IT than you can shake a stick at. If you're not happy with your job, just take another. You'll probably get a 20% raise in the process. Kind of hard to bitch to a union about that. "Oh no, my job is so hard, they're paying me six figures and expecting me to be there past five... what oh what can I do? I don't want to quit my job and make twenty grand more at the place across the street!"
A union would prevent one person from making more than another person on account of their skills, since unions typically work to smooth out differences like that so their incompetant members are still kept employed at a good salary.
The only problem I see in the IT field is that so many introverted people end up in it and may be unwilling to speak up or take a stand on issues at their job, and they'll get walked upon. More so than with any other field, today's IT workers can speak their mind with their feet as they walk out the door.
Re:Try "Association of Professional Programmers" (Score:1)
There is more to Geekhood than Distrobutions. (Score:1)
I used to be in UFCW. (Score:1)
Sorry, that one's taken. Ah, to be a fresh-faced grocery drudge...
Other reasons for unionization (Score:1)
(this is all personal-experience anecdote, so skip it if that bores you.)
Hardly any of the geeks in their respective industry -- in which I'm mostly thinking of the computer industry, particularly software -- are union members. Most of us are also inexperienced in labor matters, such as what to do when you're working 50 hr/wk and the boss comes and tells you he needs more overtime.
Few software geeks are accustomed to needing to fight to defend themselves in their labor conditions. We're currently such a valuable commodity that no employer is willing (or dumb enough) to endanger it.
That said, those conditions do make us easy fodder for exploitation when the bosses do abuse us. And it makes it hard to defend the conditions of our labor when we don't know how, and have to figure it all out under pressure.
One story of what happened to a geek shop when the management went bad can be read here [geocities.com]. A cautionary tale, maybe.
Re:UFCW (Score:1)
what does the sky look like without clouds?
Re:Geek "unions" : Semantic reframing solution (Score:1)
Kind of like a guild without a political agenda, more like a community, or even nation.
Getting Big Brother's attention (Score:1)
Set up nonprofit (read: tax deductable) organizations to fund research and construction of off-world (lunar, Mars) colonies. All geeks willing to join would have their employers send their paychecks, or a portion thereof, to their chosen org. (Has to be done at the employer level to duck SocSec/Mediscare and employer-side taxes. Simple for self-employed folks, quite a bit trickier for the rest of us.) Figure that, here in America, we geeks are facing a 50% marginal tax rate on our income beyond $30-$40K/year, so redirecting a month or two per year of labor (on average) in this manner would be enough to really screw up the federal government. (Guess where the alleged budget surplus is coming from?) Plus, we'd be making the very overt threat that if the powers-that-be don't back off, we're outta here, literally. We could probably get more than a few doctors, pro atheletes, and other high-paid professionals to join in, too. I bet the folks at Microsoft might *really* go for this.
At the very least, this qualifies as the most "out there" post of the day
Re:UFCW (Score:1)
Very Timely (Score:1)
First, consider that it's against federal anti-trust laws for self-employed individuals to create or join unions, the doctors are trying to get a special congressional waiver for their union, we'd have to do the same, or leave all the independant contractors out in the cold.
Second, would you really want to strike? Is your life enough like peoples on the opposite coast that you want someone you'll probably never meet bargaining for you? It's not like its hard to get whatever you want from companies now, do we really need help? I'm not at all convinced that a union would be in my best interest.
Re:The (m)eek shall inherit the earth...? (Score:1)
It's easy to inherit the earth. Say you're making a parallel worlds program:
public class Earth extends Planet{}
public class DC_Comics_Earth extends Earth {}
public class Marvel_Comics_Earth extends Earth {}
So, if you inherit the earth, that automatically makes you a geek!
Fraternal Order of Geeks =... (Score:1)
Sounds about right
What racial slurs?!? (Score:1)
R.I.P. Lord Sutch (Score:1)
That book was "The Peter Principle" (Score:1)
The late Laurence J. Peter came up with the idea that people tend to get promoted to their level of incompetence. They do good work and get promoted until they get promoted to a level (usually some sort of management) where their duties no longer can can be dealt with by the same skills and talents that served them so well previously, but it's usually too embarassing all around to admit the mistake and either get rid of someone who was and is a good employee but now is in over his or her head, or kick 'em back downstairs, so they stay stuck where they are, never to get promoted again, gumming up the works.
Jon, all is forgiven (for now) (Score:1)
Sure am glad that temporary crown had already come off before I read that 'cause I laughed so hard I'd have knocked it loose and swallowed it. I think the dentist thought I had supplied my own nitrous.
But seriously folks, geeks make control the machinery, but they don't control "The Money", Gates notwithstanding.
Like herding cats... (Score:1)
But I wouldn't count on that.
My experience is that most geeks I know belong to the Contrarian political party - they're against whatever is being foisted upon them, regardless of the system involved. Most geeks are experts at arguing, it doesn't matter what, or if they believe in it or not. They'll always be able to come up with arguments against any viewpoint.
Take this posting as an example.
For another completely fictional example, given three geeks (Abe, Bob and Carl) and the issue of the ten commandments in classroms.
Abe: We should be against it! It's stupid and violates the separation of church and state.
Bob: Well, I agree with you, but it might have a calming effect on twitchy students. I'm for it!
Carl: You're both on crack! We should be posting randomly selected sayings from the I Ching.
Abe: No! Bits from the Tao of Pooh!
Bob: How about the things Bart writes on the board at the begining of "The Simpons"?
Carl: Speaking of which, did you see Futurama?
Abe: When is that on? They keep moving it around...
And so on and so forth, so you see, politics and geeks don't really mix. The end.
Gee, sounds like you want... (Score:2)
Re: A guild, not a Union (Score:1)
Re:The (m)eek shall inherit the earth...? (Score:2)
We don't need divine intervention to take over the world. Some help with getting IE5 out of windows would be nice though.
--
Technical Trade Unions (Score:3)
Geeks may be getting the highest pay, but arguably the lowest QoS in the workplace. Stock options aren't as important to most of us as doing stuff we like to do - namely hacking code, gaming, and just having fun online. All those things are routinely forbidden in today's modern workplace.. where productivity reigns king.
The 1930's through to about the mid 60's brought in organized unions for the masses - auto workers, factory workers, ad nauseum. It was the unions that created public education - to ensure that their kids got the same right to an education that a rich person did.
Those unions were smashed to pieces by cunning political moves, corruption, and plain stupidity on the part of union leaders, and the whole thing slid off into the sea, never to be heard from again.
Most unions today are technical in nature - high demand workers who cannot easily be replaced. Plumbers, electricians, teachers. Government unions are also common - Airlines, Postal Workers, etc. This definately speaks something to the legitimacy of organizing a geek union.
I do believe it's possible. Geeks have shown repeatedly an interest in having their fair share of the pie in political issues. Strangely enough though, when pressed, they seem apathetic and indifferent - preferring to talk about the issues, but would rather not invest the time - "I'd rather be coding" would make a fine bumper sticker on most geekmobiles.
I honestly don't know whether it's possible. Technical unions are usually the most successful due to high demand and low availability. The question is - can you really herd cats? Can you convince the geeks of the world to unite in a shared vision (a better workplace)?
Contact me at this [mailto] address if you'd like to talk more.
--
Re:Good god no! (Score:1)
Can we not have a union that negotiates for the things we want ? open source projects ? better coffee ? less uniform pay and conditions ?
Oh by the way, if people want to talk to you because you are a software engineer, please tell me where you live ! I want to move there
Re:finally (Score:1)
Re:We don't need no stinking unions (Score:1)
You can be the boss, you just have to want to put in the time and energy necessary to get that job. They won't give it to you because you're smart.
As for implementing policy, start with small steps. Change what you have control over. Demonstrate your success and you will have greater influence over others. Don't whine when people don't latch on to your ideas, figure out why they didn't. Use your ability to learn from your experience.
I have knowledge of unionized programmer shops (yes they do exist). Quite frankly, these are the biggest overhead I/S organizations around. A DBA cannot write perl scripts to help manage the database servers because that is coding and is reserved for programmers not DBAs. If you get caught breaking the rules, well you'd better have seniority or you could be walking. Just for trying to be more efficient. Yeah, unions are just what we need.
I have worked my way up to where my opinion carries weight in my organization. It wasn't through threats, but by showing that my ideas help the company. I didn't wait for someone to notice them, I pointed them out. I looked for opportunities. And, it didn't take forever.
Most companies, when they get into trouble, layoff production/operations employees. This is because they are the easiest to replace. Unless your I/S department is a real loser, you probably won't get cut. You may not replace attrition, get tiny raises, etc., but it would be costly to have to replace you when times get better.
I won't even address your racial slurs (disguised as "realism") other than to say that I find them seriously offensive.
As for hiring older workers, our company gladly would but most of them don't have the skill set we are looking for (VB/C++/Java/SQL). We need people and to discriminate on the basis of age would be stupid. We are just looking for skills. This is capitalism, we pay for what we need. If you keep your skills up to date (sometimes you have to do it on your own) then you can find work. No one is going to look out for your career besides you.
Re:What racial slurs?!? (Score:1)
He hides his racism by not using the terms. But it is clear from his message what he thinks of these people. For his information, we pay equally for talent. We don't pay less to those from a foreign country. Nor should we.
Better that a union for us .... (Score:1)
Just think about the AMA. Something like 50% of all American physicians are members. They weigh in with an opinion on any piece of medical legislation all the way from the US Congress to community council meetings. And they are heeded, not just because the throw a lot of money around during election time (they certainly do) but also because they are recognized as experts on in a very complex and important field. This also gives them entre into the pressrooms of America - they provide an authoritative source of opinion whenever a new wonder drug is announced or a new plague is discovered.
The professional associations have used their power in the USA for decades to improve the careers of the people they represent. If you have any friends in law school, ask them how many texts they use that are not approved by the Bar Association. Manufacturers of hospital equipment fall over themselves get the "AMA Approved" label. Wouldn't it be amazing if there was a group that could keep the Microsoft-sponsored textbooks and lesson-plans out of schools? Or that held hardware and software manufactures to standards of stability and security?
And, finally, when the current job market does turn sour for geeks (nothing lasts forever, you know) an established professional association could become a platform for unionizing. Who would have thought even 2 years ago that DOCTORS would ever want to have a union? But now that doctors are controlled by insurance companies and HMO's the AMA is forming a collective bargaining unit to preserve the quality of their careers.
Information Technology is not like dockworking or auto manufacture, or even clerical/secretarial work. Unions, which work well for these professions, would not be appropriate for geeks. IT is much more like law, medicine, or business - highly educated individuals who can pilot their own professional destinies. If geeks truely need an organization to represent them, then it should be modeled after the professional organizations that represent these individuals.
"The Time Machine" anyone? (Score:1)
Morlocks are we?
This argument is nothing more than the Garbage Man argument in higher technology. Frankly, we are skilled in subjects few are but on which most depend. We can generally call our shots or just find another job pretty easily.
We have the power, the money (often), and the sense to make our lives what we will; though some would use and abuse our good nature and work ethic for their own means, we still, on an individual basis, have the "power", even if we don't know it. This is not the case where most unions are needed---an individual member couldn't necessarily have a major monetary impact. We, on the other hand, tend to hold a great deal of trust of our employers. I don't think a union is needed or warranted in our case.
Union-like job opportunities already exist (Score:1)
resemble unions when it comes to job placement/opportunities.
As far as a complete organization of `unionized' geeks... I don't
know how that would fair... has a lot of potential benefits, but
I also see problems that could arise...
working in the industry, and enjoying it as a hobby, I myself
would probably benefit from such a union.
However, I would hate to see what would happen when working
conditions, pay rate, etc would keep the geeks of the World from
going into work... not a Good Thing (TM).
------------------------------------------
Reveal your Source, Unleash the Power. (tm)
Re:We don't need a union, we need lobbyists. (Score:2)
The Computer Industry lobby that is out there isn't always acting in in the best interest of it's geeks. For example, it's recent struggles to loosen up visa restrictions, with the explicit intention of increasing wage competition.
Especially considering how many in the computer industry are contracting or consulting or working for small shops, a worker-based trade association makes alot of sense.
--
Atlas Shrugged (Score:1)
I would never join a club that would have me as a member. - Groucho Marx
And you thought OLD unions were bad??? (Score:1)
I made a smart-assed comment about unionizing the
system administrators. (typically the biggest geeks at AT&T) The ENTIRE room went deathly silent and everyone did a sharp intake of breath.
What did I know? I was a 22yr old SA punk...
An older gentleman spoke softly and said (and I DO quote, as I'll never forget)
"Any company worth their salt would fire and
black list ANYONE who ever tried to unionize
admins. That much power in the hands of
people like you is already scary. With a
union and a strike you people could halt
almost all forms of communication in the US."
At the time I was already aware how to screw
up ALL the long distance in the states and
satelite connections as well as all data networks.
He was right, geeks wield TREMENDOUS power,
and some people are very afraid of that.
Geeks are typically more inquisitive and smarter
than the average Joe. People tend to fear
that which they don't understand. Geeks seem
to top the list since that little rampage over
in CO.
da'fly
Re:Atlas Shrugged (Score:1)
J.
Re:UFCW: What is this 5 days rubbish? (Score:1)
So what do I do on January 6th???
Or do you mean the first five days of each week?
Re:Dumb Idea-No Grounding In Economic Reality (Score:1)
Read the Randal Schwartz vs. Intel [lightlink.com] case and tell me again you wouldn't strike for another programmer?
Yes, that's the guy who wrote the book on my desk being banged up for
This, you see, is how I know that "Life's a bitch and then you die".
Solving problems... (Score:1)
Geek (Score:1)
1: A sideshow of a circus whose act entails digging a large pit in which their act is performed
2: A sideshow of a circus of which the act involves biting the heads off live chickens and snakes.
Please use the word more carefully.
http://www.lord1.f9.co.uk [f9.co.uk]
Union, or trade association? (Score:1)
Union, trade association or PAC? (Score:1)
IMHO Unions work best when they simply protect their members from on-the-job abuses rather than drifting into politics. Imagine belonging to (and paying dues to) an organization whose politics you abhor, just to keep your job and benefits. This is what happens when Unions go Horribly Wrong.
Katz wrote of a geek Union forming to battle the various corporation thundering onto the internet. Would you really want your Union to engage in suce a battle? A lot of us grumble about faceless corporate money-grubbers invading our playground, while at the same time being aware that those very corporations keep many of us afloat financially. Geeks may indeed command more respect these days, but it's largely a function of money, not knowledge (respect from other geeks being a notable exception). A geek Union seeking to drive corporate interests from the internet might well be shooting itself in its figurative foot. Not that Unions have never done that before...
We may already have what we need - a means of keeping each other informed when boneheaded politicians and media figures propose bad legislation (CDA anyone?) so that (somewhat) unified action can be taken to oppose it. No meetings or dues required, no all-or-nothing political agenda. Just information. What one does with it is up to each individual, as it should be.
We have the internet - now all we have to do is use it.
public education (Score:1)
Please, no... (Score:1)
Even now, the company I do consulting work for has GM as its major contractor. Anyone remember when GM workers went on strike last year? I had to go through those picket lines every day. Even though I had my contractor's ID in full view with a "visitor" parking pass, they still harassed me. I had to take to bringing a firearm to work with me to prevent people from hassling me or destroying my car.
Unions are not worth the time and trouble. Even if we organized amongst ourselves there would still be those who would want to grab for power. This happens in all forms of structured society, and we are not immune. If you don't like your working conditions, find another job. Fighting with your employer is like trying to fight a rental eviction notice. You're not wanted, one way or another, so you may as well leave and find a better position.
Want a casual atmosphere where everything goes your way? Start your own business. If that scares you, look at the corporate cultures of many tech startups. Try to join one of them. If not, find a company that has good employee relations (Southwest Airlines comes to mind) and get hired on there, then see if they will let you have at least some of the freedom you seek.
As far as lobbying power, I'd rather propose something like the AARP or the Association of Internet Professionals (they still around?). Those who want the organization's lobbying power can join up and make their voice known through their organization. That way, if you agree you can vote with the organization. It makes everyone individually responsible for themselves, but gives them the power to change on a large scale if they can get others to go along.
Jobs are a very touchy subject in this day. No one likes to be told what to do, especially if it is forceful or demanding. Stand your ground, but don't go jumping on a bandwagon that might run you over, just for the fun of it.
Re:The international Geek union (Score:1)
If we, the Geeks of the world wanted to be less productive whiney arses, we would be end-users! The Idea of ANY Labor Union appalls me!
EXCUSE ME? are you calling union workers lazy? i'm sorry, but that accusation has no basis in fact.
if you've ever had to work a job outside the realm of the computer industry, you'd know that unions are not useless and union workers are not lazy.
While i agree... (Score:1)
Re:Geek strikes (Score:1)
Not that any of this makes any sense to me. So-called geeks are generally praised, not ridiculed. Yes there are those who are jealous of them, but how is "exercising rights" going to change that? It would be nice to have greater political representation so that Internet taxes and mass censorship would be abolished. However, I'm not convinced we would make any real progress in that area either--we generally agree mass censorship is foolish but my own opinion is that censorship must be available in public libraries to protect the children. Many would disagree.
Future Union/Cultures ...? (Score:1)
There are ways
However, is it a "Union" Organization/Institution that is desired, or maybe a "Culture" Nation/Society is developing like no other that has ever existed before upon the face of this earth?
A culture without national boundries, human rights equality for all, a religion based on the true good of advancing the interest of humanity,
We can not make a social program/theory (Communisim) fit economic policy, or allow an economic theory (Capitalism, Supply & Demand) to determine the future of humanity.
Aggressivly Stong Self-Interest will create Self-Destruction for individuals a/o society.
Anyway y'all figure it out and I'll support the Geek Nation/Culture in my will.
Wake up and smell the roses. (Score:1)
I work for a company in which there are (if I remember) five separate unions and a "non-union bargaining unit". Everyone here has a contract. We don't all get paid the same, and in fact, there are merit-based bonuses and raises about every 6 months, and guaranteed cost-of-living adjustments. Our dental and vision care is covered. Our employer pays 85% of health insurance costs, for several plans at any of half a dozen providers. When I see phrases like "corrupt union leaders" tossed about casually, I wonder if these people are victims of corporate propaganda or just misanthropic cynics. It's my first real experience with a union, but I'd call it favorable.
There's also a little group called the Communication Workers of America you might've heard about. 630,000 people can be wrong, but since they include the ones laying the fiber we all use, the likelihood of that is decreasing.
Is a traditional union the best idea for geeks? Probably not. Managing or organizing geeks, as I'm sure we all know, is rather like herding cats.
On the other hand, when have we ever done anything traditionally? In the last few years, we've made significant progress in reinventing the press, commerce, and we're even scratching at government. It sounds to me like Katz has pulled the best leadership trick there is: find out where people are going and get in front.
So what are a bunch of otherwise reasonably intelligent geeks to do? Our interests aren't represented in the government, and they're only just starting to be noticed by the traditional media (still vastly dominant in most parts of the world). I have to agree with Katz on this one: let's figure out a way to make some advantage of the fact that we're keeping their toys working without getting any deeper than necessary into sticky issues like "who's in charge" or "how much will this cost each of us".
Most of us like what we do already (if we didn't, we could certainly pursue other opportunities in today's job market). Take a break, and think about whether educated consumers and less-meddlesome managers might help us enjoy it more. If they're unwilling to cooperate, are you willing to like what you do on someone else's time?
Antitrust law precludes Geek Union (Score:1)
Re:Geek unions (Score:1)
Since there are large ammounts of "geeks" getting out of college and they all want jobs what will happen to those that attempt to strike? Can you say replacement?
Re:We don't need no stinking unions (Score:1)
Basically most people involved in unions are doing so because the individuals are doing something that is so dangerous or just has a bad track reccord of being a realm that the rich had great control over in the past (coal mineing (or and mineing in general), automobile industry, etc).
Re:Why Do I Have a Bad Feeling About This? (Score:1)
Re:think outside the box for once (Score:1)
Roustabouts (Score:1)
I am really sure the majors would disagree with your assessment that roustabouts are indispensable. They are a dime-a-dozen, easily trained, and easily disposed of.
But your comment pretty well stands. No one is irreplaceable.
Re:"Geek Union" is an Oxymoron (Score:1)
Re:We don't need no stinking unions (Score:2)
On the other hand a group that advocates truth and education about high-tech concerns would be a worthwhile proposition. Especially if it is friendly and readily accessible to the mass media (who unfortunatly rarely let ignorance or lack of facts get in the way of a good story).
Question: Wouldn't this be a good issue to be addressed by the ACM?
Unions: Just Say No (Score:3)
If I don't like my working conditions, I will find a job that better suits me. I wield considerable power in the marketplace to demand a certain salary and working conditions based on the fact that I am competent, have a good repututation and am honest.
While recognizing that unions do serve a good purpose for some, I would think in my field they would only serve to as a shelter for the incompetenent and lazy and could only hurt me by limiting the options I could exercise in a free market.
Furthermore, I have found that in the business world, the best guarantee for screwing yourself is to rely on others. I would stand nothing to gain by such a propostion and everything to lose... so much so that I would rather switch careers than be forced to join a union.
As far as the press goes, mass ignorance will always be with us. Anyone who doesn't understand that 90% of the press is made up of people too stupid to do real work (compare requirements for a journalism degree with anything other than an education degree and see what I mean) and legitimate and worthwhile journalism is being pushed further and further into the fringes. I generally find the level of intelligence expressed on slashdot to equal or exceed most newspaper columnists (and certainly reporters), particularly since I can see so many viewpoints easily.
Ignorance is a fact of life, and I don't really give a d*mn what people at large think since they will always misunderstand someone like me anyway.
finally (Score:1)
It would be interesting though after seeing how many websites went black to protest the original CDA imagine if all of those companies reported unpresidented numbers of people out sick. These strikes are going to be the hardest to organize, if not for a common website or other way to dessimate the information there would be no way to know that you were supposed to not go into work/school the next day.
Geek "unions" : Semantic reframing solution (Score:1)
Why It Won't Work (Score:1)
The answer is simple and depressing: some people with technical expertise don't care that much, perhaps not at all. Heck, there could even be some techies who agree with some of the wretched policies of governments and the horrible mistruths of the mass media.
If you can't get people to stop working for these entities, how do can you expect them to politicize against them?
The the famous Brett Watson ... (Score:2)
I would have to say the Brett Watson that you are living in an ivory tower. You are educated, intelliegent and able to negotiate and understand the issues in an open society. But what about those who do not have the voice that you have? Those whose work or study situation does not allow them to be vocal. I'd say you have never had a real job, one where your rights are invalidated on a daily bases by being underpaid, overworked or put in situations that are dangereous.
The ability of workers to unite against a common enemy, usually the management is a powerful and important part of working life. Lets take an example. In New South Wales in the early 1990's, the Liberal Government of the time, brought in enterprise bargaining agreements. One of my friends, a secretary who was earning about $300 a week, had their boss come in and tell them that were now to get $215 a week. A little more then the social welfare payments at the time. That was their enterprise agreement. They did not have the education, ability or knowledge to use the justice system to hear their case, which might have taken weeks, and cost more then they could afford. If they complained they were sacked. They needed the money, and so couldn't quit to find another job because of the recession.
If they had a union, then the union could have represented all the workers at real enterprise bargaining meetings, where someone had the knowledge and understading of the system to help the workers.
Let's take another example. In Australia there is a large community of outworkers in the textile and clothing workforce. These people, usually immigrants with little english skills work from home and are paid per-garment that they produce. Since they are not in a factory situation, and have little english, they do not realise that working 16 hours a day for $5 an hour, 6 or 7 days a week is not the norm. They don't have anyone to go to for arbitraition, as they need to keep to working and may loose their job. It is the work of organisations like Fairwear and Asian Women at Work ( http://www.awatw.org.au [awatw.org.au], may not be up) that lobby on behalf of these people.
But lets not forget the point here, what about VSU and the Austalian University System. The rights of students are also constantly being erroded. Have you never been locked out of class due to lack of seating? Have you had to fight for computer resources and lab time? You are an english speaking, probably upper north shore ex-private school student (Knox? Barker?). Perhaps you should go down to your union office, and get involved and try to understand what they do. Just because you can't see an advantage to what they do, try and see the picture of an overseas student, or migrant-enthinc minority student who gets low marks because they have a racists lecturer who can't be disiplined bacause of tenure.
So, I say to you, Unions will always be required in a Capitalist society. While there are still those trying to minimise the wage and status of the general worker, who are unable to represent themselves in discussions.
pay according to value (Score:1)
They just don't seem to realise management is not necessarily the natural progression, I code, I like it, I want to keep doing it.
Re:We don't need no stinking unions (Score:1)
accredits us like the Bar association, or the AMA, and forces tech workers to keep their skills current and ensures
the quality of our work. From that we could gain lobbying forces and political power.
Anti-organisation people are bitching about mediocratity and seniority set slary levels?
Let me ask you something, a semi-literate auto worker who punches buttons on a machine all day should probably
be making $7/hr, but the industry average is $22/hr, with nearly the *best* health benefits in the USA. Thats over
3x salary inflation. Think about what that would be like for organised technical labor. Do not know about you, but I
would not mind making a minimum of $60/hr. */
And how much does the average automobile cost at the dealership these days? And how many automobile manufacturers have relocated *across* the border into Canada and Mexico to fight artificially inflated salaries? You don't get an increase in one area without an increase in the other.
Unions are nothing more than "legalized" extortion rings designed to rob a company/owner of his production. If you want to make $60/hour, I suggest you pick up some more skills or learn to market yourself better.
And finally, I don't think it's necessary. Highly skilled techs are in such demand that the industry will *always* be short-handed, thus ensuring higher across the board wages. I've worked at several companies where the hardware techs could barely manage to put together a computer, much less turn one on. The only reason the company used them is because they *couldn't find any one else*. With the shortage of trained Computer Science professionals, the situation only looks better for job security. And finally, with the public education system of the US cranking out half-wits and kids who still can't spell their name, much less configure/install something like RedHat Linux (hey, good argument why Microsoft succeeds is that 1) it's relatively easy to use and comes preinstalled on most boxes and 2) the typical user can't read the fucking manual to install another OS). Imagine them trying to master the math skills required in a credible compsci major. DOn't worry, your jobs are safe and if you aren't making the money you probably could be making, its because you haven't bothered to ask or walk.
Thanks for listening!
Re:The international Geek union (Score:3)
What's ridiculous about it? People hire intermediaries for negotiating purposes (attorneys, brokers, agents, auctioneers, group purchasing organizations, etc.) all the time.
[General rule: 90% of the complaints people have about unions would be self-evidently dismissed as ridiculous if they were directed at an entity that dealt in widgets instead of labor.]
We don't need a union, we need lobbyists. (Score:1)
seem to be proposing, is a lobby, not a union. We
aren't complaining about how we're treated by our
employers (for the most part). We're complaining
about the lawmakers complete lack of
understanding (or worse, misunderstanding) of the
technical aspects of what they legislate. Many
varying industries have lobbyists (Tabbaco, et al),
why shouldn't we?
Good god no! (Score:4)
Really, are we as geeks that mistreated at work? For the most part I agree that the accounting departments of the world loathe us, but who cares? When I meet people outside of work and they learn that I'm a software engineer, they are always very impressed and excited to talk to me. That shows respect right there. Managers are afraid to lose us, as they know that we keep the machines running and the software coming. That gives us amazing leverage right there. Any of you ever wriggled a few extra vacation days out of your manager? Wondered why he/she gave in? Ever notice that most geeks only work about 70% of the time? Try that at McDonalds. Although that would be par for a union job...
More to unions then strikes. (Score:1)
Imagine if a large well organised "International Geek Federation" representing tens of thousands of IT workers worldwide from new graduates to managers launched a press/lobbying campaign saying "This new encryption law will cost jobs and destroy the internet, here our well reasoned facts and figures to back up our claim", and compare the effect to that of a few hundred people sending emails to a member of the government who doesn't understand the subject.
While we remain a fragmented community linked only by a comman love of computers and divided by such religious issues as which distro is best we will have no say in how the internet and IT in general develops leaving agendas to be set by big business and politicians . By forming a union or such like (the Institute of Geeks and Allied Trades anyone?) we at least stand some chance of influencing the future of that which we love.
Bil
used to be my .sig (Score:1)
Lies.org (Score:1)
Slightly thereafter, the FDIC proposed its Know Your Customer policy, an extremely invasive proposal concerning bank records. They requested public comment, and received >250,000 replies, all but 72 of which were opposed. Email provided the medium for most of this response. The FDIC accordingly dropped the whole thing.
I personally was awestruck at how well people came together, and how well the strategy worked. The inspiration came to us at that point to center lies.org around the leverage that internet communicaiton allows in political situations.
We seek input. "lies.org" is too cool a domain name to use for some boring personal site, we'd much rather it be used for the public good in some way.
At present we envision it as a slashdot with a political twist. By "a slashdot" I mean a dynamic, community driven and moderated site, updated as frequently as possible.
We have at our fingertips the greatest communications medium in the whole of recorded history. Collective action (and collaboration) is now possible on a scale never before imagined. IMHO we spend too much time receiving information and not enough time sending it. A website with as many readers as Slashdot that kept up minute-to-minute with relevant political issues and included mailto: (or other) links to make your opinion known to the important parties would be politically unstoppable.
Imagine the
So, if you have ideas, suggestions, comments, criticisms, etc. please pass them our way. You can email me at adimarco@gwi.net. [mailto]
Anthony DiMarco
adimarco@gwi.net
BOFH Tactics (Score:2)
Oh, it is? Never mind, then.
Perhaps a trade organization... (Score:2)
Perhaps what we really need is a trade organisation. Something that will lobby to protect the rights of freelance consultants, open source software developers, etc. Something that can provide portable retirement savings and health plans that we can take from employer to employer.
If you are not getting what you want out of your current job, then LEAVE! It is a seller's market right now for computer professionals. Don't be afraid to ask for what you want. I am working as a freelance consultant. I only take contracts that meet specific requirements. Sometimes that means I go without work for a few weeks while I sift through available contracts, but I just treat that as vacation time. I make more than enough as a freelancer to make up for those periods.
Join a union? I don't think so.
Thad
The (m)eek shall inherit the earth...? (Score:3)
doc
Union Goals (Score:2)
Seriously, though, if all this potential union went after was more money for geeks, we wouldn't be any better off for it. What we need is to get someone up in the board room who knows more about computers than 'point, click.' Then the progress can really start happening.
Viva Revolution!
UFCW (Score:2)
of each year above 70 degrees are holidays!