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Changing the Keyboard 386

Posted by CmdrTaco from the dumbing-it-down dept.
Your Mama sent us a funny NY Times bit (yes, you need a free account) about dumbing down keyboards because all those crazy keys confuse the newbies. BUt this begs the question: How can we survive without old friends like the Scroll Lock, the Sys Rq and of course, break?
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Changing the Keyboard More

Changing the Keyboard

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  • I've made several posts on this topic as well.
    ---
    Put Hemos through English 101!
    "An armed society is a polite society" -- Robert Heinlein
  • Personally, I think they keyboard is pretty much OK as it is. Dvorak is definitely a more efficient layout of the alphabet keys, but most people are used to QWERTY, so it's probably here to stay.

    One thing that would be a very easy thing to do would be to move the caps lock, scroll lock, and num lock keys out of the main layout, and put them where the lights are (and have lights built into the keys).

    That way, the num lock could be replaced with a backspace key for the num keypad (which would be much more efficient- I think "clear" on the Mac is exactly that), caps would be replaced with something useful (maybe something related to tab, like moving the cursor one tab forward, or a reverse-tab), and the 3 key block of print screen/sysrq, scroll lock, and pause/break could be replaced with cut/copy/paste keys or something like that. (Print screen, sysrq, pause, and break could be retained by going ctrl-f9/f10/f11/f12.
    There already is a help key, after all- F1. But if that was actually LABELLED "Help" in addition to F1, it would probably make it easier for newbies.

    The ultimate keyboard would allow it to be instantly reconfigurable, of course: I wonder if it's possible to put little LCDs on the top of the keys so that the labels can change instantly, through software.....
  • Hot swapping keyboards is in general a bad idea.

    The keyboard interface is a syncronous serial interface, and not necessarily well-buffered. Hot plugging a keyboard is a good way to toast out a motherboard's keyboard interface.

    It was ages ago, but I remember buying 8088 motherboards back in 'the old days' at swapmeets. A common 'defect' on them (component level troubleshooting is such fun) was the TTL gates with lines connected directly to the keyboard being blown. These days that logic is all buried in a monster "Chipset" part. If you blow the keyboard interface on such a board, plan on telnetting to that box in the future, you won't be typing at it anymore.
  • Ditch that crappy QWERTY board, and get a Dvorak one!

    I swear by my Kinesis Ergo. The Dvorak is only half of the benifit, the best part is the REAL ergo layout.

    Ever wonder why keyboards are layed out with the keys going diagonal?? Beats me, but it's much more comfy to type on on that is in columns.

    Best money I ever spent.
  • I undertstand it was (don't laugh) a security measure... You see, a virus or an external attacker can make your computer think it has some extra keypunches in the buffer, and thus gain access to log into the system maliciously. Now, they can't (can they?) send Ctrl-Alt-Del

    Now, maybe it was a valid security reason during the first two months of the first NT's release... But not anymore, IMHO.
  • OBVIOUSLY, the solution is to make a keyboard with one and only one button.

    It would sit right smack in the middle of the keyboard. The only label on it would be a little smiley face. (You could put some LSD on it if so inclined).

    Then, you think about what you want the button to do REALLY HARD as you press it down. The keyboard would then interpret your thought and send the appropriate message to the computer.

    Of course, you'd have to put new typing programs on the market to teach you where on the Home Key to place your fingers.

    Some would say that as long as the keyboard is reading your thoughts, why not just eliminate the keyboard altogether and just communicate your thoughts telepathically to the computer? Obviously, that's just hogwash. How are you supposed to convey your thoughts without pressing down on the button??

    Anyway, I have a limited number of these special keyboards made, so contact me if you want one. The price is $100 per unit, non-negotiable.

    DISCLAIMER: The keyboards only work as long as your only thoughts are, "Do nothing. Do nothing."

  • I think keyboards for newbies only need one key, labled "Slam forehead here until you learn to read manuals".

  • Yes! Hail the IBM Model M! =^) These have to be the greatest keyboards ever made. Comfortable, full sized keys. Practically indestructible. I grabbed the one I'm currently using from a thrift store for $1 -- I think I burned all my good karma right there, and I've been paying for it ever since. *heh*
    --
  • Caps -> Control is extremely important to me. The only problem is that I accidentally turn caps on all the time on others' computers.

    I did it after getting some old workstation hardware--it was just too inconsistent to keep moving that one key in my mind. Now, I'll never go back.

    -awc
  • oh lord, how true. When I worked at the library, it was amazing how many people didn't know what the enter key was for. Worse, the library's software always said "press Return". So they look on the keyboard and there's no return! Man, major goof on someone's part.
  • That would be assuming it's OFF to begin with, which everyone knows is WRONG! :)
  • Don't forget binding the 'menu' key to Compose; without a Compose key, it's difficult to enter umlauts (äëöü), æ (whatever that's called), thorns (), and other non-English symbols.

    I have a calculator with a 'green-diamond' key, but I find myself calling it 'Meta' because it looks like the Sun meta-key symbol.
  • Many terminal programs (and some Linux programs too, although only when run in console mode, I think) treat it as the old XON/XOFF (better known as Ctrl-S/Ctrl-Q) combination - When you send XON, it means "hold a second, I'm a bit full - don't send any more data". Then, when you are ready to continue, you just give it a XOFF, and there you go.

    (or was it the other way around?
  • When you are entering data into a spread sheet you can hit num lock and use the arrows to move around to the cell you want, hit num lock and continue entering data.. no moving your hand 2 inches to those peski arrow/control keys.. I always wished they put the alt key over there.. I find myself only ever using my left hand for ALT and entering ascii codes in decimal.. and they need to put a backspace key over there.. damn it.. get rid of all the other keys and just fork me a keypad. (with a hex row..)

  • My understanding of "begging the question" has always been when a statement gives rise to an obvious (but unstated) question. A five-year gap on your résumé can be said to "beg the question" ... so much so that you can state just that and everyone knows what the question is. This is the only usage I'm familar with, and it makes a lot of sense to me, whereas "conclusion stated in your premises" seems more of a semantic stretch.
  • I don't know about any other application but in MS Excel Scroll Lock locks in the current selection. Without Scroll Lock, arrow keys and Page Up/Down cause the selected area to change in the direction of the navigation. With Scroll Lock on the view changes, but the currently selected cells stay selected.
  • Mirrored numpads on both sides of the keyboard would be GREAT for games! It would be good for righties who want the mouse and numpad and the main keyboard (e.g. me) in games like Quake, and it would give you a pair of gamepad-esque controllers for games that you're not using the mouse for.
  • I hate 'em! I hit 'em by mistake when typing in a window and then the menu pops up an' ... Aww never mind.

  • I have a Sun layout keyboard on my work and home PC's. For those that haven't used one of those before, they have an extra 11 function keys down the left hand side (with labels like "Front", "Cut", "Help", etc - VERY useful to bind to functions like "bring window to front" etc), and four extra keys in the top right hand corner. Add to that a real Meta key, compose and Alt Graph, and that's a real hacker's keyboard.

    The Sun brand keyboards have a different connector than PC's, which gives you two options; either build a converter, or buy an NCD Sun Layout keyboard (X-terminals have standard PS/2 connectors). Part number for that is "N-123 Unix" (or choose an international version [ncd.com]).

    If you go with the NCD keyboard, they don't support the clunky protocol that most keyboards use and use the pure PS/2 protocol - so you will have to do some heavy key remapping.

    Under Linux 2.0 and current versions of XFree86 you can get all keys except F9 and F10 working. Mail me (see home page for address) to get a copy of keymaps for this.

    The Linux Input Driver [mff.cuni.cz] patch to 2.3.12 will make all the keys available, but is not currently at a production stability level.

  • Would someone please volunteer to be the saviour of online humanity and kill the Caps Lock key?

    It has one useful function, and one only: to instantly mark newbies. While this is nice, there are equally effective ways of spotting newbies that don't leave you pressing your hands to your ears and moaning about Advil.

    This godforsaken waste of plastic is positioned right between Shift, A, and tab - as though it were placed next to some of the most common keys on the keyboard specifically to encourage typists to strike it accidentally.

    WebTV lost an opportunity to atone for the fact of their existence by including a Caps Lock key on their keyboard. Just think how many newbies could have been saved from ETERNAL LUSERDOM if WebTV's engineers had taken a little thought to the monster they were unleashing on the world and simply omitted it. Then again, if they had been thinking along those lines, they would have blown all their cash on a big party and then quit, which would have pissed off their investors to no end.

    OK, enough ranting. I hate Caps Lock.

    -Mars
  • one has to wonder.. it's nice like they don't have the money to buy some more ram.

  • In my mind, the IBM PS/2 keyboard is the finest keyboard ever made. You can pick them up around here (Boston) refurbished at trade shows for about $15. They have a perfect feel, and, in my mind, the keys are all in the right places.

    I like two control keys. I'm a touch-typist. Most of the useful control chars for emacs and the shell are on the left side of the keyboard (a,s,x,c,d,z,w), requiring a control key on the right side of the keyboard. I can take or leave the caps lock key, but a control key to the left of the 'a' is purest evil for finger injuries.

    I spent the first year after coming out here as a contract sysadmin. I spent that year using Sun type-5 keyboards. They seem to be designed specifically to cause wrist injury. They have a horrid feel, a horrid slope, and are way too wide. I always end up remapping one of the diamond keys to be a right control.
  • The only keys you need are :
    ctrl + alt + del
  • Blah.. take away the keypad and put a number pad on the mouse..
  • COBOL has been case insensitive for the last 10 years.. They still have that '*' must go in the first column for the line to be considered a comment though.
  • Maybe its just me, but I want an even BIGGER keyboard. Kill the stupid windows keys, they just get in the way...

    Personally I have an old IBM terminal with a REALLY nice keyboard. It has 24 function keys! Personally I want 36 or so...

    I also would like a few dozen more keys all around the keyboard, like another 12 or so on the left and another 12 or so on the right.

    256-key keyboards anybody? (hey I wonder if this idea is MARKETABLE??? HRM....)

  • And why is it that in Xwindows under Linux, if you turn NumLock on (as it always should be) that when you use the mouse, half the buttons on any given app don't work? Apparently NumLock is regarded as a "Shift" key -- even though CapsLock isn't. Or is there some way to change this foolish behavior?
  • i use caps lock when programming in assembler.
  • I was helping my new bride move out of her apartment and what did I find in the back of a closet? Why, an old IBM!

    She said, "Oh, yeah. That thing is ancient. We can probably just throw it all out."

    I said, "No way. I'm keeping this keyboard."

    Yep. Count 'em -- 101 long-throw keys with easy action and SPRINGS (Can I get a hallelujah!) A case that was made of METAL, man! You could put it on your lab -- provided you didn't need circulation to your knees (it's a little heavy compared to today's stuff). A genuine coiled cable from an era when coiled cables did NOT tangle into a 3" knot of cheap plastic misery within a week.

    And the NOISE! I haven't heard that kind of audible feedback from a keyboard in years! Everything now is don't-wake-up-the-guy-in-the-next-cubicle softie soft. (ok, Dell is the exception) Not only did it "click", it would "boing" oh-so-softly with each keystroke!

    It went straight on to my #1 box and the cool factor of the machine went up immediately. Trust me -- you could feel it. The only drawback is that when I'm in the office, people can tell whether I'm working (CLACKETY CLACK CLACK) or just goofing in Netscape.
  • I see no reason to buy a vastly overpriced (the cables are expensive because they're hand-made? Give me a break!) keyboard that seems to have been designed with the soul purpose of causing horrible wrist injuries.

    I mean, really. Ergonomics exists for a reason. The only redeeming feature of this keyboard is that it doesn't have those damnable windows keys.
  • This is a question that has been plaguing me for years. Does any body know?
  • Can anyone tell me whether printscreen, Sys Rq, Scroll Lock, Pause and Break actually do anything under Linux? I've never found a need to use them...

    OTOH, I have configured my win95 keys to act as meta under X. All I need to do is paint on penguins :-)
  • You had bellies? Why, in my day we had to transmute the shape of our outer cell walls!!
  • Gosh dern it, back in _my_ day we didn't need 104 keys! Or even 88 keys! We had 24 keys and we liked gosh darn it! We didn't need none of those newfangled letters like 'J' or 'V'. We didn't need no gosh-darned punk-tyuu-eh-shun. We just rammed those keys like there was no tomorrow over our accoustic couplers hooked up to our shortwave radio keys and we LIKED it gosh darn it!

    Course I guess there's no pleasing these kids these days with their fancy 'automobiles' and their 'cordless phones' and their 'Internet', so I guess us proper, decent, Ghod-fearing old folk will just have to suffer along with all the clackity-clack of all those keys going at once and them mice oh don't even get me started about those darn mice! You'd have never seen a mouse in MY computer lab, gosh darn it! Those critters fried up real good inside ENIAC, heh-heh-heh...*cough*

    Gosh darn it now you've gone and got my emphysima goin' again, you young rascals. Go on, git out of here, you punks, with your 104 keys and your mice and your 'monitors', what kind of garbage is that, kids these days, I'll tell you, can't even read a punched card, or use a keypunch....

  • Yes! Hail the IBM Model M! =^) These have to be the greatest keyboards ever made. Comfortable, full sized keys. Practically indestructible. I grabbed the one I'm currently using from a thrift store for $1

    $1??? wow, I feel ripped off now! I paid $2 for each of my 3 Model M's!!!
    But, it was well worth it! I hate when I have to type on anything else. Just switching to a different type of keyboard [even when the keys are in the same place] slows my typing down by about 40% [estimated :) ] As someone mentioned earlier, I hope that by the time PS/2 connecters are no longer put on PC's, there will be an adapter for plugging these baby's into USB...

    Ender

    Eat right. Stay fit. Die anyway.

  • How about putting MORE keys on every-day keyboards.. just like my sun keyboard at work

    Find, Cut, Copy, Paste, Open (my favourite), Front, Undo, Props, Stop, Again..

    But I could never figure out the blank key on the sun keyboards ?? ^@ is what it produces ..umm .. is that the ANY KEY ?? These extended keys on the Sun keyboards make my live much easier for sure!
  • I think having a power button (or even a suspend button, like on Compaqs) would be really annoying. I would hate to accidently power off or suspend while I was doing some hardcore coding in Linux, switching VC's and hitting seemly random keys all over the keyboard? I know no matter where you placed it, I would end up hitting it somehow. I'd either hit it with my head when I pass out after a 18 hour coding session, or with my elbow or I'd drop a pen on it or something... and if you made it so you had to press it very hard, so you couldn't accidently hit it, nobody would want to use it... and what would happen if you pulled out your keyboard plug? (Since I know so many of us like hot swapping keyboards around) Would the computer shut off? Could you not turn it off? Would Windows lock up? Heh. I like keyboards the way they are.
  • The idea is that, with Scroll Lock on, when you use the cursor movement keys (up, down, etc) instead of moving the cursor, you scroll the window.
    Timur Tabi
    Remove "nospam_" from email address
  • Of course, as a side-effect you turn off the normal association of M-up and M-down: Scrolling the "other window". Personally, I use that more often than the need to scroll the current window one line at a time.
  • The num pad is not upside down, the phone is. Calculators were in wide use for some time before the introduction of touch phones, and calculator keypads have the same orientation as the numeric keypad.

  • Out-of-Box, Suns don't make nearly as nice workstations as SGIs do (I've used both). But, with a little tweaking, they can make a wonderful home. I'm on a SPARCplug (okay, it's not a Sun, but it's based on Sun's technology and runs their software and pretends it's an SS20) running Solaris 7, KDE, and Netscape/IE (depending on my mood). I really couldn't be much happier.

    Ultras suck as workstations when they only have the standard TGX framebuffer (stick an old Paradise ISA VGA card in a PentiumII and see if it's really that much more responsive in Windows than a P60 is... you catch my drift). TGXs tend to bug-out on their onboard RAM (mine went out a month ago, so now I'm at half RAM, which means -less- acceleration), which produces very `interesting' video effects (mouse droppings, incomplete redraws, region-swapping, etc.).

    However, throw a Creator3D or Elite3D in the Ultra, and you're moving like nobody's business. Suns really shine when you run them headless and X into them or run remote processes on them, as their I/O is superb and their CPUs run phenomenally once you free them from the tethers of a video framebuffer.

    The keyboards are weird, especially if it's the Unix layout (and you're a PC-user), but, once you acclimate to them (Sun makes a PC101-like keyboard, BTW), they're a dream in Solaris. I'd love to have copy/paste/help/undo/redo/repeat/open/cut/properti es keys on a WinNT box... it saves from having to remember shortcut keys. But, the keyboards are an acquired taste

    As for SGIs, they do make much more impressive workstations. They've got glamourous cases, the spiffiest GUI on the planet, a standard PC keyboard, and a graphics subsystem that works with the CPU (actually uses the same instruction set), instead of adding more work to the CPU. Excellent, excellent workstations.

    But, run IRIX machines aren't nearly as impressive remotely or as servers. Challenges and the like were pretty darn good, but, you get more bang-for-buck on Suns if you're doing mostly serving or headless processing.

    People buy Suns for CPU speed and Solaris, not for a spiffy GUI or `creature comforts' (well, most don't... I actually enjoy working in the Solaris environment). People buy SGIs because they need the power and flexibility of a Unix workstation, but also want a machine that makes computing an far more enjoyable experience (in terms of `creature comforts').

    Oh.. don't talk about stuffing PC innards into an SGI case too loudly around avid SGI users (I'm one of those, too). They just might burn you at the stake for heresy. ;)


    "Have lunch, or be lunch."

  • Uhm.. I think you meant to post to segfault.org, not slashdot.org. The lack of Natalie Portman's genitals and Hank the Angry, Drunken Dwarf should have been a clue. Jeeez....


    "Have lunch, or be lunch."
  • the mouse is to inacurite, and yet you use it for sniping? that dosn't make to much sense. anyway, I find the mouse much better, beacuse it alows analog control of position, instaid of ether left/right up/down you get fine graned control
    "Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
  • Well IBM bios understands ctrl-alt-del (though I prefer to call it alt-ctrl-del, just to be different) as a reset, so its one of those keys that you either allow to be sent to the bios and reset the computer, or you remap to properly shutdown the computer, or bring some sort of shutdown/task menu.
    I could be wrong in the previous statement, and open to flame.
  • Reasons I prefer my HHKB over a remapped
    standard PC keyboard:

    1.) ESC key moved down next to '1' (remap this
    on a PC keyboard, where do you put '~/`'?).
    2.) ALT keys moved outwards so comfortable to
    use with fourth fingers (no keys there to map
    to on PC keyboard).
    3.) Backspace reachable from home row (although
    I always use CTRL-H).
    4.) Nice, solid keyboard, very pleasant to type
    with.
    5.) Takes up half the space of a standard
    keyboard.

    I bought the 'classic' version, with the Mac and
    Sun interfaces. They've got a new, PC-only
    version out for about $70 (from memory).
    Definitely recommended (http://www.pfuca.com)
  • You know, you could always implement it so
    that for each byte (8bits), you have to
    hit the button to send a "start bit". If you hit the button, send 8 bits and release the button, no more input will be expected until you again whack it to signal yet another "start bit". Kinda like serial communications.
  • Some computers boot with NumLock on, some with it off. This is usually selectable in the BIOS...
  • but a control key to the left of the 'a' is purest evil for finger injuries.

    How do you come to this conclusion? I can't see how just moving your finger to the side AND down is better than just a side motion. I speak from personal experience here but it's not a very large data set.
  • It looks like NYT has wised up to people using the ``cypherpunk'' login to avoid giveing personal info.

    Oh well.

  • Various Turbo Pascal-written tools using the Turbo Tools package for DOS-based windowing used it for moving the windows, IIRC: By enabling scroll lock, the arrow keys could be used to move the window on the screen, and possibly change its size (it's been a while since I used it).

    As did Sidekick, by the way.
  • That's it. Ctrl + Esc is the Windoze shortcut that pop up the Start menu. And it's quite useful : it permit to shutdown the machine in less than 1/10 sec. (Win95 + Up arrow + Enter; much quicker than "shutdown -h now").

    I do agree about the power button on the keyboard. I missed this feature from my SS10 when working on peecees (and I curse the placement of CapsLock/Ctrl !). With almost every PC now sold being equiped with software-controllable power supply (ATX?), it sould be doable. Probably another limitation in the name of backward compatibility !
  • I can honestly say that I use just about every key on my keyboard. I never type Ctrl-C; I was trained to use Ctrl-Break. Print Screen is handy when I'm writing help files for Windows apps my company puts out.. just run the app. Go through the procedure, take a screenshot at every step. Viola, help that even morons can understand. (The only thing I don't like much about that feature is the fact that it doesn't capture the mouse pointer. I have to paste it in =P). As for my function keys, I use WordPerfect 5.1 on my old DOS machine or under DOSEMU whenever I want to get words processed. I've even got the little template that goes around the function keys so that if I forget a combo, I can always look it up.
  • I love that keyboard! I'm gonna git me one some day...
  • Ok, I've been using Linux for over two years now without coming across this before - it would have been damn useful those times when SVGAlib stole my keyboard and I didn't have a network to telnet in from.

    Sorry for the long comment, but /. has comment truncating working nicely now, and it's all worth it.

    /usr/src/linux/Documentation/sysrq.txt:

    MAGIC SYSRQ KEY DOCUMENTATION v1.2
    ------------------------------------
    [Sat May 16 01:09:21 EDT 1998]

    * What is the magic SysRQ key?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    It is a 'magical' key combo you can hit which kernel will respond to
    regardless of whatever else it is doing, unless it is completely locked up.

    * How do I enable the magic SysRQ key?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    You need to say yes to 'Magic SysRq key (CONFIG_MAGIC_SYSRQ)' when
    configuring the kernel. This option is only available it 2.1.x or later
    kernels.

    * How do I use the magic SysRQ key?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    On x86 - You press the key combo 'ALT-SysRQ-'. Note - Some
    (older?) may not have a key labeled 'SysRQ'. The 'SysRQ' key is
    also known as the 'Print Screen' key.

    On SPARC - You press 'ALT-STOP-', I believe.

    On other - If you know of the key combos for other architectures, please
    let me know so I can add them to this section.

    * What are the 'command' keys?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    'r' - Turns off keyboard raw mode and sets it to XLATE.

    'k' - Kills all programs on the current virtual console.

    'b' - Will immediately reboot the system without syncing or unmounting
    your disks.

    'o' - Will shut your system off via APM (if configured and supported).

    's' - Will attempt to sync all mounted filesystems.

    'u' - Will attempt to remount all mounted filesystems read-only.

    'p' - Will dump the current registers and flags to your console.

    't' - Will dump a list of current tasks and their information to your
    console.

    'm' - Will dump current memory info to your console.

    '0'-'9' - Sets the console log level, controlling which kernel messages
    will be printed to your console. ('0', for example would make
    it so that only emergency messages like PANICs or OOPSes would
    make it to your console.)

    'e' - Send a SIGTERM to all processes, except for init.

    'i' - Send a SIGKILL to all processes, except for init.

    'l' - Send a SIGKILL to all processes, INCLUDING init. (Your system
    will be non-functional after this.)

    * Okay, so what can I use them for?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Well, un'R'aw is very handy when your X server or a svgalib program crashes.

    sa'K' (system attention key) is useful when you want to exit a program
    that will not let you switch consoles. (For example, X or a svgalib program.)

    re'B'oot is good when you're unable to shut down. But you should also 'S'ync
    and 'U'mount first.

    'S'ync is great when your system is locked up, it allows you to sync your
    disks and will certainly lessen the chance of data loss and fscking. Note
    that the sync hasn't taken place until you see the "OK" and "Done" appear
    on the screen. (If the kernel is really in strife, you may not ever get the
    OK or Done message...)

    'U'mount is basically useful in the same ways as 'S'ync. I generally 'S'ync,
    'U'mount, then re'B'oot when my system locks. It's saved me many a fsck.
    Again, the unmount (remount read-only) hasn't taken place until you see the
    "OK" and "Done" message appear on the screen.

    The loglevel'0'-'9' is useful when your console is being flooded with
    kernel messages you do not want to see. Setting '0' will prevent all but
    the most urgent kernel messages from reaching your console. (They will
    still be logged if syslogd/klogd are alive, though.)

    t'E'rm and k'I'll are useful if you have some sort of runaway process you
    are unable to kill any other way, especially if it's spawning other
    processes.

    * Sometimes SysRQ seems to get 'stuck' after using it, what can I do?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    That happens to me, also. I've found that tapping shift, alt, and control
    on both sides of the keyboard, and hitting an invalid sysrq sequence again
    will fix the problem. (ie, something like alt-sysrq-z). Switching to another
    virtual console (ALT+Fn) and then back again should also help.

    * I hit SysRQ, but nothing seems to happen, what's wrong?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~
    There are some keyboards which do not support 'SysRQ', you can try running
    'showkey -s' and pressing SysRQ or alt-SysRQ to see if it generates any
    0x54 codes. If it doesn't, you may define the magic sysrq sequence to a
    different key. Find the keycode with showkey, and change the define of
    '#define SYSRQ_KEY 0x54' in [/usr/src/linux/]include/asm/keyboard.h to
    the keycode of the key you wish to use, then recompile. Oh, and by the way,
    you exit 'showkey' by not typing anything for ten seconds.

    * I have more questions, who can I ask?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    You may feel free to send email to myrdraal@deathsdoor.com, and I will
    respond as soon as possible. If that email address does not work, use
    myrdraal@jackalz.dyn.ml.org.
    -Myrdraal
  • also, the windows key isn't a 'normal' key, it fires an intrupt, or does somthing else like that (I think).

    You're wrong here. The windows key is just like any other key. If you've ever programmed your own keyboard handler to sit on IRQ 1 and poll port 0x60, you'll know what I'm talking about. It's been a while since I did it myself, but IIRC, the windows keys use what would logically be the scan codes for F13, F14 and F15.
  • Not exactly relevant to what you posted but . . .

    The Keyboard that came with this HP Vectra VL just FSCKING SUCKS!!! Some marketroid thought it would be 313373ly k3wl to add 13 keys to adjust stuff like the speaker/earphones volume & other stuff that makes no sense to me. Thirteen miserable dirty little eraser stubs above & to the right of the 10-key pads that are already mapped -- or should be mapped -- to other keys. And they sit there untouched, cluttering the appearance of my keyboard.

    And then there are those mothra-fscking Winkeys that I only hit when I make a typo. They're about as cute as a 2nd-grader playing three-card Monty on the playground & racking in the lunch money from the first-graders.

    Are the PHBs at certain corporations trying so hard to make using computers easy for the average luser that they HAVE to annoy & handicap those of us who know how to use one? Maybe they get flaccid at the thought some of us are better with computers than they are, & do this out of some twisted sense of revenge for their lack of marital (or pre-marital) ability???


    Okay, I know this rant's going to get moderated to -1, but I had to get all of that off my chest. Before I took this dead 540MB full-height SCSI drive I have at home & stress-tested the craniums of a few PHBs at certain corporations.


    Geoff
  • Well back in the days when the earth was cooling off and dinasours were being domesticated for house hold pets there existed computers that had many terminals, a terminal being a monitor and keyboard with out a cpu of it's own. Since computers were soo expensive it was common for one computer, usually no faster than your common 286, to have a dozen or so terminal connections to one "true computer", one with a cpu. However the problem was how do your reset a terminal if it hangs, or how do you get the system to recognize your attempt to login? It would be wastefull for the "true computer" to keep a connection going to a terminal that no one was using. Well that's where the SysRq came in, think of it as a on/off switch.

    As systems grew and computers became cheap, about this point dinasours died of lung cancer long story don't want to get into it at this time, the key was carried along since computers could be wired into such a system through a serial connection. I've even seen such a serial connection, the horror!

    You might also be interested to know that the SysRq key requires you to press the right alt key as well, shift doesn't work. I don't remember what the scan code from the keyboard is but it's a unique scan code.

    In reality all the keys on the keyboard do nothing but send back a number, ctl-alt-del is not some magical configuration that trips the reset switch. It's up to your software to recognize that combination and do what ever is appropriate. If your vagly interested the codes sent back start with 1 from your esc key and go from left to right across the keyboard starting with your 1 key above the q, with a few notable exceptions like pause which sends several codes, as well as num lock and the keypad.

    As for not being able to detect several key presses, this is true to some degree. While you can't sent to codes at once, codes are sent as make/break codes, if the code is less than 128 it's a make code if it's more than 128 subtract 128 from it and it coresponds to it's break code, meaning it's been released. So a smart programmer would know how to keep track of what position all the keys are in. However there is a limit to how many keys the keyboard can detect as pressed, I think I've managed 12 simultanious keys. I think it's a problem with the number of circuit traces on the board and that some overlap to more than one key, but I'm just guessing that, you can open one up and take a look for yourself.

    Now if this has been utterly fascinating to you, get out and date more before your fate is the same as the dinasours!
  • I hope someday some1 makes a keyboard with this key: F**K It [awr.net]

  • I believe SysRq was added to the AT keyboard to assist with IBM-style terminal emulation.
    --
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Depends on what it's programmed to do - on the FreeBSD console (and maybe other BSD's?), switching on scroll lock puts you in rollback mode.
  • The windows key sends unique scan codes, which would correspond to the scan codes of "F13", "F14" and "F15" keys (or something like that).

    Print Screen is a fun button to detect, because (IIRC) it sends 3 (or was it 5) scan codes in direct succession. But neither key is "a nightmare" to detect. You just have to special-case for PrintScreen's specific scan code sequence.

  • someone writing a daemon that records keypress statistics?

    You could use this data to design a keyboard for hacking.

    IMHO, having the braces and brackets more easily accessible would be cool.
  • If you can think of anything that requires a mouse in Windows, speak up (...)

    Yeah, I can think of one thing. Booting windows.
    If you do not have a mouse plugged into your computer while booting Win9x GUI, you just get a silly dialog box saying "it's ok for you to plug in a mouse now", and it won't proceed until you do so. Which brings me to a rather silly point....

    I installed win98 from scratch on a friend's computer, and I didn't have a mouse plugged in during setup. Everything worked well until the final reboot to start up Win98 for the first time. Then (of course) that stupid "insert a mouse now" dialog box popped up. I inserted a mouse, but it didn't work. Reboot, Reinsert, Check IRQ, Change serial port, it didn't work.

    Then i realized: Apparently Windows 98 SETUP did not detect a mouse during install, since, of course, there was no mouse installed; so Win98 SETUP decided not to install a mouse driver. I couldn't get into windows to install a mouse driver, since it demands to detect a mouse first (which isn't really easy to do without the driver).

    So I wiped the harddisk, spend another hour reinstalling *WITH A MOUSE PLUGGED IN DURING SETUP*, and what do you know, it worked.

    Amazing.

  • The sad thing is that many of the extended keys (as you'd find on the PC-style Apple extended keyboard) don't work in most Mac programs. I was always pressing Del on my old system 7.6 Mac with no results.

    Apple did get one thing right by mapping cut-copy-paste-undo to the first four F keys.
    --
  • Most newer ATX motherboards support power on with one or more of these features:

    Spacebar
    Double Click
    Enter BIOS Password to turn power on (my fave)
    Wake on LAN
    Wake on Modem
    Wake on RTC (Power on at a certain time)
  • But then you could only enter 1010101010101010...
  • In XEmacs, any key that has a symbolic X keysym may be bound to a function. You can find out what keysym is being generated with xev. If the key isn't generating an X keysym (in Linux), then you probably need to tweak the console keyboard map loaded at boot. The console keyboard map I use with Linux fails to map the Home and End function keys to anything, but since I never use those keys, I've never bothered to fix it.

    On Solaris, XEmacs already binds scroll lock but we don't do anything with it:

    C-h c

    scroll_lock is undefined

  • I use an Omni Key 101 from Northgate (no longer around unfortunately). It is much like the old IBM's but not quite as massive. It came standard on all Fintronic systems at the time we purchased them. Should have known Fintronic would become as big as they are today, just by their great choice of keyboards.

    I will have to try to find some way to smuggle this one with me when I finally graduate!

  • I also use one of the AnyKey keyboards.

    The remap can be very confusing though.
    Once someone using my keyboard got it
    jammed under the monitor which pressed
    the remap button. They were then baffled
    why many of the keys didn't work anymore.

    Gateway was obviously aware of this problem,
    as the keyboard shipped with a big sticker
    telling you how to reset the keyboard.

    The only real irritation with the AnyKey
    is that the configuration software only
    worked under DOS (it would crash in windows).
  • First, remap the two keys with the windoze logo to ALT. I did this so long ago I've forgotten the details. I think the one taht says ALT appears to Emacs as the META key, so I map the two new keys to ALT. It's confusing if I think about it so I just don't do that any more.

    Second, remap the the "menu" key (the third new one) to I think Hyper. That is now my FVWM2 control key. MENU + INSERT gives me the root menu, MENU + arrows bops among the desktop pages, MENU + HOME moves, etc.

    This leaves ALT and META available entirely to prograns, so I don't worry about CTRL-ALT F1 changing consoles on me.

    --
  • Hey, I've met MANY idiots who can't even figure out Windows! You could say "double click here, and start typing," but they're clueless when they want to do anything else.

    Any, has ANYONE ever seen any computer idiot ("non-technical person") who actually understood what the directory tree was, or that files are actually organized in directories? I've yet to find one! Many can't even figure out how to save/load with floppy disks!
  • the original IBM 101-key keyboard. I have a pile of them, ranging in years from the mid-80s thru the early 90s, and all my friends use them. They have an amazing tactile-click, and they're completely indestructible. I've taken them apart -- the grounding strap in there could take a direct lightning strike. You can also pop off all the key caps (which fit over the actually keys) and remap them very easily.

    I've seen them selling (refurbished) for around $80.

    BTW, when Fire and Darkness was still a DOS game, you used Alt-SysRq to switch to the text mode console. Ever since we switched to Windows, it's been Scroll Lock. So we like all those extra keys.

    I have to say, I do like Sun keyboards with the Ctrl where the Capslock is on all other keyboards (except the original 88-key that came with my IBM PC...now that was old school...)
  • Well, indeed - serious servers don't have a kbd shoved up their a$$, rather a serial(a or b) connected to some kind of terminal-concetrator (or "sumfin'" like that)... which IMO is as bad as a keyboard that can be reached by the average (l)user - why? ... well, you can telnet in that thingie on a purrticular port and at the login prompt - say the magic word "^]" to get the telnet> where you say again two magic words and the whole MF goes belly up! :)

    Don't try this at home^H^H^H^Hwork unless you really know what you are doing (i.e. you really need to do it)... :)
    Ino!~

    PS: Magic incantations removed to protect the inocents ... :) (BTW, Read The Fantastic(!) Manual (tm) really works wonders )

  • If you ever use Lotus Notes, Ctrl+Break is a god send because it stops Notes from whatever crazy task it's hung on.

    Scroll Lock also works in Notes and I actually use it (although less now that I have a scrolly mouse.)











    --
  • We have a few of these keyboards. They are supposed to be "better", but noone I know actually likes them.

    Fortunately there's a switch on the back side of the keyboard to select BackSpace or normal Space.
  • The PowerBook has an "Enter" key because for some reason Macs treat "Enter" and "Return" differently.

    I've noticed that some of the lisp/scheme/ml interpeters/compilers differentiate between the enter and return keys. Return goes to the next line and enter submits the current line to the compiler/interpeter.

  • The truly great thing about using weird control
    sequences is that you accidently learn various
    neat features of vi. I had no idea control-p
    did word completion in vim until I mistyped
    control-[. And most of the features of screen
    I've learned through poor typing skills. :)
  • The DOS communications program Telemate uses the Scroll Lock key to lock the scrollback buffer at a single location. Otherwise, if you close the scrollback window and reopen it it'll go back to the top. I've also seen it used to stop text scrolling in other terminal software.
    --
    -Rich (OS/2, Linux, BeOS, Mac, NT, Win95, Solaris, FreeBSD, and OS2200 user in Bloomington MN)
  • The BIOS on my (ATX) motherboard allows me to use F12 or lmb+rmb (on a PS/2 mouse) to power on. It also has a wakeup on modem ring function that scared the shit out of me the first time I saw it in action :-)
    --
  • I'm using an Ultra5 now, and indeed the series it is part of, really suck when it comes about the frame-buffer - on a 21" that means only 256 colors and a bloody slow window refresh rate. However - I'll get a the Creator 3D upgrade this monday and I'll start kicking some behinds with this station ... :).

    Ultra 5s were first shipped with a crappy frame buffer device - but since January this year (I am not sure though) they're much better equiped when it comes to video (and they're at about the same price the old ones were).

    Speaking of keyboards - I'm using Sun's for about 6 years - and there was a time when I was so used to the Cut/Copy/Paste/Open/Undo that I was literally trying to use them even when at home on my PC - go figure, my left hand falling off the keyboard in the attempt to press those keys!

    On the other hand - the GUI that comes with Solaris isn't that nice (IMNSHO), but one can twist-and-whack (!)it to suit the needs. For me Window Maker is the best choice, and if you're smart enough you can make the DT apps work just fine under almost any other window manager rather than using CDE ad nauseam...


    Ino!~

    PS: when Sun switched from KBD Type4 to Type5 I was most annoyed by the new key positions ... Ctrl replaced Caps and Escape moved down instead of Tilde and the Tilde key moved to hell - at the other end of the row... (I'm still looking for that one sometimes). Otherwise their keyboards really feel wonderful at typing - and don't seem to croak at all (I have the original ones on the Suns at the Univ. since 1993 - and they were *REALLY* abused in the mean time)
  • Well, I shuttle mine between work and work(err, I mean "home"). At work I use a Sun Ultra 2 and at home I have a box running Linux and BeOS. It's very, VERY nice to have the same keyboard on both machines. Also, the layout is just about perfect. It can be a bit annoying to switch virtual consoles in Linux, but I don't do that to often.

    My previous keyboard was a Northgate Ultra 102, which was also very cool (though large). It had the function keys on the side, the control key next to the "a", and there was a complete duplicate of the number pad that was used for the direction keys. It had a numlock, but I never figured out why.

    mike
  • The article mentions one alternative, the chordal keyboard. It sounds like an excellent idea-- where could I get such a thing-- either in hardware or software form?
  • Try "cypherpunk s ". :)
  • Sitting at a Happy Hacking keyboard right now. Interesting that capslock is gone, but if you use the extra function key they gave me, prtscr/sysreq, scrlk and pause/break are all still there!

    I have the same number of options, they're just on a smaller number of keys :)!

    The other day one of the network admins (novell guy, not a unix guy) came by to do something to my machine (gotta love remote admin!). Took one look at my keyboard and said "What the hell is that?" I offered to stay and type for him, he said no. I came back 10 minutes later and he was saying "I don't know how to do control alt delete!" :) (Del on this keyboard is "fn+'".

    Duane


  • Well, you'd think that's what the "Help" key would be for, except when it doesn't do anything (which is usually).

    So much for Human Interface Guidelines...
    --
  • It didn't seem like the article was about dumbing keyboards down for newbies at all, just about discussing keys that should be extinct -- serve no purpose. On my Mac, basically the entire series of F-keys aren't used. I rarely use the help, home, end, numlock keys, nor the entire keypad. The article does make one incorrect statement:
    Even Apple Macintoshes adopted similar keyboards, but with Command instead of Control keys and Option instead of Alt.

    Actually, Macs have Command instead of Alt (on the old keyboards) and still have a control. The Option key is there also.

    Nothing is more useless, imho, than the Windows95 keys, which seem to serve the unique purpose of making the spacebar 3 inches long.

    The best keyboard layout would be the PowerBook's if not for a few problems. First, it has a useless "Enter" key to the right of the spacebar, where there is traditionally a Cmd key. Fortunately this can be remapped. Second, the arrow keys are too small. Third, you should be able to use the f-keys to do anything. I mean, doesn't the F stand for function? I should be able to launch Netscape by pushing f5 if I want. The iBook lets you do that. Diehard keypad users who need to enter tons of numbers can set the numlock and the keypad gets mapped to the 789-uio-jkl-m,. keys. It fits the most useful stuff in the smallest space while maintaining a "full size" keyboard and drops the useless "print screen," "scroll lock, " and "pause" keys that I have never pressed. There, I pressed them. Wow.

    Also, the Powerbook and iMac have the light for the Caps Lock button INSIDE the caps lock button. So if you want to see if it's on, you don't look on the other side of the keyboard.

    The most useful key on the entire keyboard, of course, is the power button. Why have no other manufacturers picked up on this?
  • Let me clarify: The mouse is inaccurate for just running around and shooting. It doesn't stay level and/or I tend to overshoot. Plus, since I'm right handed, it's easier to control everything important with my right hand than to switch to the mouse.

    If I'm sniping, it means that no one is shooting back (yet) so I have more time to delicately move the mouse into position and blow some poor creature's head off. I wouldn't use the mouse in the thick of things, but then I wouldn't use a sniping rifle then either.

    I don't have anything against analog control however; Goldeneye 007 uses a thumbstick pretty extensively for aiming and that's fine. But there's a big difference between the amazingly comfortable and well-thought out N64 controller and my keyboard and mouse.
  • "NumLock is pretty valuable to players of many first-person games like Quake," said Dan Horn, a University of Michigan graduate student who has done research on keyboard designs, "because the number pad allows users to move diagonally more easily than the dedicated arrow buttons where two key presses are necessary."

    I don't play Quake, but I do play games like it. I've never had to turn NumLock on to play these games with the number pad. So what is this guy talking about?
    Timur Tabi
    Remove "nospam_" from email address

  • This is -EASY-! Just have a Virtual Reality keyboard, typed on using a data glove, and seen using a headset. That way, since you already have a headset, you can get rid of both the conventional keyboard AND the monitor!

    That's an enormous amount of space saved!

    Then, because it's a VR model, you can give it as many or as few keys as you like, placed where you like. Don't like QWERTY? Design your own style!

    Finally, with everything in VR, and people getting to design things the way that works for them, we can get rid of condescending IBM keyboard designers and half-brained journalists, and get some work done!

  • If it's really necessary to remove keys from the keyboard, ditch the main numeric keys or use them for something else; the numeric keypad is far more useful, especially if you do a lot of numeric data entry


    While I agree about the numeric keypad being very useful, IMO the main numeric keys are too. They let me type occasional numbers without having to move my hands. Doing something like coding while having to move my hand to another area of the keyboard to enter numbers would slow me down a lot.

  • WHoa! chil I was just being a bit silly, sadly I too call it Ctrl-Alt-Del, I was just trying to stir up things, which oviously I stirred up one individual a bit too much. I was making that statement simply because you can hit alt-ctrl-del and it will work (note: you cannot hit del-ctrl-alt, or del-alt-ctrl). Anyways get a grip, btw if I look across my keyboard I see a spacebar then and alt then an ctrl then a del to the upper right (yes I see ctrl and alt on the left side of the spacebar too but I choose to ignore them just to annoy you).
    :)
  • Well, I don't play quake at all (it's ugly), but when I do play 1st person shooters (Marathon, Doom, Unreal) I keep my right hand on the keypad and left hand on the w/a/s/d keys (thumb on space). Since I put movement, sidestep, weapon selects and both triggers on the keypad, I'm just busy.

    Once in a while I switch to the mouse (for sniping) but never in the thick of things. The mouse is too inaccurate for my tastes, unless I carefully aim. The keypad is great, OTOH. Since I've got aiming also mapped to left hand keys, I usually don't play with the mouse at all. And I play real good.

  • The PowerBook has an "Enter" key because for some reason Macs treat "Enter" and "Return" differently. Most applications treat them the same, but there were some older apps (Excel 2?) where Enter and Return have different meanings. This used to pose a problem on the original Mac keyboard, which only had a Return key.

    Just file this post under "More useless information".
    --
  • If they're going to dumb down a keyboard, they should do it somewhat like the iMac's.

    No, I don't mean in terms of layout or size. I'm stuck on Grandma's iMac at the moment and I hate the keyboard. But consider: 12 function keys, the standard character set, the standard modifiers, Caps, Tab, the arrows, a standard numpad, Help, Home, Page Up, and Page Down. What else do you need, except perhaps a couple more function keys if you're an F-key freak?

    Scroll Lock, SysRq, PrintScreen (unless you're on a Windoze box where the key supposedly takes a screenshot but doesn't even save the picture on the disk), and others like that have served their purpose. They were designed for ancient terminals, so few of which are in use today (with the ones that are in use being phased out, and no new ones being sold) that you certainly don't have to make new keyboards for them (especially since simply being able to use one renders a user non-clueless by definition, so you're not dumbing the keyboard down by removing them).

    I'm for getting rid of superfluous keys that even the average Linux user has probably never used. Just don't cut out too many keys.
  • Anybody had the unfortunate luck to use one of these keyboards, with the spacebar half the normal size, and an extra *backspace* taking up the remainder of the space? I didn't even know these things existeuntiIstartewritinlikthis.

    d


  • Hey - have you looked at the cost of keyboards lately? $8 for your typical squishy 104 key model!

    I can understand the "let's get rid of all the useless keys" movement. After all, it might increase the profit margin of some taiwanese company by 10 cents per keyboard or something.
    --
  • 'to beg the question' is not used in this way... begging the question means that your conclusion is stated in your premises...


    That's true in logic, but not in colloquial speech. Treating both definitions as being valid leads to the least frustration. I doubt the colloquial use will disappear any time soon.

  • I want a Space Cadet keyboard [tuxedo.org]. This would be a wonderful Neat Item to have lying around, and should I ever get around to building an adapter for it, a neat toy as well.


    Does anyone know where keyboards of this type can be obtained, or even where I could find a picture of one?

  • That still doesn't explain what the guy's comments. He said the NumLock key is used for Quake, but in your answer, it's actually used for spreadsheets since you need to turn NumLock ON in order to use the number pad. With Quake, you just leave it off.

    In fact, I expect that it doesn't matter if you leave it on or off with Quake - you can always reassign the keys.
    Timur Tabi
    Remove "nospam_" from email address

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