Interview: Mandrake Answers 49
Peeler asks:
I run both KDE and Gnome, It would be great if the two
would play nice with each other. My question is: Are there
currently any plans for getting kde and gnome to work
together, and if so how far along is the gnome team? Is the
gnome team even talking to the kde team?
Mandrake answers:
Well, I can't say I know all the progress of all of this, but I
know at least there are some plans under way to make a more universal
set of window manager hints that both KDE and GNOME share. I got to meet
Matthias Ettrich from the KDE project last week during Linux World and that
was one of the things that we were talking about. I honestly can't say what
the better solution is these days, KDE or GNOME - but I know that enlightenment
will be able to support applications from both by the next release (I just got
done working on implementing KDE hints for 0.16) - and my advice to the average
user is use either or both or none, or whatever suits you best.
But the one GOOD thing about both is they're working on bringing more applications to the linux desktop, which is something that we need pretty sorely right now.
Trashman asks:
How soon do you expect a 1.0 release of E?
What features, arenn't in E .15 yet that you would like to see?
Mandrake answers:
1.0? Eek. I have no idea. There's a little bit of a roadmap sometimes, and
there's kind of a plan right now as to what all we want in there EVENTUALLY and
I suppose that some day there will be a 1.0 release, but not today.
Enlightenment is still under pretty heavy development, and I tend to get the
1.0 feeling when you've got most of what you want done in there, at least to a
basic extent.
Some people call something 1.0 the first time you ship something, but I know at least that raster doesn't care what people think of the version number (and I suppose that has rubbed off on me, too). So I have to go with the "when it gets done" answer, as usual. There's a lot of stuff left to go into E before a 1.0 even that is planned now (including a lightweight file manager, some more network integration, etc) - and then there's a lot of stuff I'm sure that hasn't even been thought of. And with the addition of some other folks like Christian Kreibich who is working off the codebase now, I'm sure there will be even more stuff added in before release too.
Ale asks:
Whenever I try to compile Enlightenment, I get an error
saying my fridge is out of ale, even though it isn't. I
tried stocking my fridge with different kinds of ales, to no
avail. I even tried removing everything not beer from my
fridge, and that didn't work either. Can you help me figure
out what's wrong?
Mandrake answers:
Well, I'd have to say that it's likely that you forgot to connect up your
refridgerator to the PC again. Quite often, I find that as I walk out of the
kitchen towards the living room, the serial cable I have running into the
office from the fridge comes unplugged. You might want to check to make sure
it's still plugged in. If it is plugged in, I know that those cables are long
and prone to fraying, so make sure your cat hasn't chewed through it. If all
else fails, make sure your libFridge is up to date.
Syd asks:
You've been involved with some of the later XF86
development, and you run xinerama on your machine, (as
evidenced by your screenshots) so my question is this: Can
Xinerama run on two monitors at different resolutions? I
know they have to be the same bit-depth, but it would be
nice to be able to buy a 19" monitor and use it alongside my
existing 17".
Mandrake answers:
Xinerama is still pretty new - you can run at different resolutions on
different monitors (not bitdepths, however) but due to backwards compatibility
reasons you'll have an unmapped area - you have to have a rectangular desktop.
Anonymous Coward asks:
Hey Mandrake! How is the perl/gtk book coming along? I'm
already drooling in anticipation! Can you give us a ballpark
figure on when it will be published? Or how about a topics
list? Any info would be greatly appreciated!!! Keep in mind
you have at least one guaranteed sale!!!
Mandrake answers:
It's kinda on hold right now. Mark Stone from O'Reilly (my main contact there)
will prolly give me a call as soon as he sees this (I was supposed to talk to
him during Linux World last week but was too busy to get around to it).
Anonymous Coward asks:
On my P1-233MMX-Matrox Mill II system, GTK applications
like E, the Gnome suite, and stand-alone applications like
FreeCiv display (at times) sluggish interface response and
slow screen draw times. Complex interfaces can often be seen
drawing in or updating widget contents in sequence.
It can be oddly reminiscient of my old 25Mhz Amiga running a 3rd party widget toolkit like MUI.
My questions for Mandrake are:
1) Where does the fault lie - X, GTK, E, the application, or "all of the above"
2) What efforts are being made to increase performance?
3) Do you think we'll ever see optimisations like hand-tweaked assembly in the GTK event loop, or in the widget redraw code?
Mandrake answers:
Well - to be honest with you I'll point out that in many cases you eat a lot
of overhead by communicating over the X protocol. Context switches, IPC, etc,
it all eventually eats into your performance bit by bit. Of course, the more
graphics you throw at it the more overhead you're going to add into that. It's
everyone's fault, and it's no ones fault. Fun answer, isn't it? You probably
won't see hand-tweaked assembly in the GTK event loop, because most of where
you're losing time won't necessarily be helped by it.
I wish there was a happy answer for that question. It's usually an applications fault if refreshes seem lagged though - there are a lot of things you can do to optimize out a lot of the "slow spots" that are visibly slow to the user... enlightenment does a lot of this - peaking through and optimizing out as many refreshes/moves/etc as possible. In a lot of areas there's some more serious work being done to increase performance - at least in the image rendering area, raster has been doing some work on imlib2 with some MMX assembly code in various places (for x86 only - there's C code for other platforms) to help speed up some processing. There's hope yet.
Anonymous Coward asks:
May I have your children?
Mandrake answers:
My girlfriend might have some beef with that. I suggest you ask her.
mindslip asks:
Microsoft, as much as we love to hate them, spends tons
of money (which I'm sure Enlightenment doesn't have by
comparison) on useability and the human interface.
I can rely on the same keystrokes, the same mouse clicks, a consistant Clipboard, the same file dialogs, etc. etc., no matter what Windows app I run.
Linux apps, be they for KDE or Enlightement, or any WM, seem to be as different from one another as possible. This is all in the name of "We're Unique!", which seems to translate to "We're Unusable and have a HUGE learning curve!"
What, if anything, is going to make Enlightenment/ Gnome/ KDE/ Anything else, more usable than one another? Themes are lovely, but a pretty face is only skin deep.
Can we at *least* "steal" some of MS's better ideas for use in "our" environment?
Mandrake answers:
Pretty much one of the tenets of enlightenment has always been to let the user
decide all this stuff. on an application by application level there's not
really a whole lot that you can do to add consistancy, that's really up to the
app and/or the underlying toolkit that it uses. I know that GTK+ and QT both
provide stuff for a lot of this... you'll notice that most GTK+ apps look the
same, etc. But as far as stuff like enlightenment goes, we let the user define
as much stuff as he wants to, right up until he gets into application land.
which is a place where the window manager pretty much has no right to tromp
over. (kinda like my opinion about letting applications have control over root
window clicks. gmc, IMNSHO, shouldn't take mouseclicks on the root window)
As far as how you want your overall desktop (outside of applications) to behave - you can emulate it as closely as you want to (within current limitations of enlightenment) - set up all the keybindings you can to behave and respond the same, etc. But I will tell you one thing - they spend a lot of money on UI research that doesn't do me a lot of good - I have a hard time sitting down in front of a windows box and getting any work done because I CAN'T change enough of my settings to make it how I like to use my desktop. To me, that's what it's all about - giving the user choice. Even if enlightenment isn't the end-all-be-all system for everyone, I hope we at least up the bar a little bit on making people offer you more choices.
Zurk asks:
Is enlightenment going to go the 3D way of desktops ?
Some companys were promoting kewl 3D accelerated desktops
and with the Xfree 4 accelerator support can we expect 3D
accelerated desktop support in E?
Mandrake answers:
I am of the opinion that to do a 3D desktop we'll have to throw away a lot of
the current notions of computing. I've got some cool ideas about a lot of that
stuff, but I'd rather implement it a much different way later (hopefully I'll
get a chance to write a paper on my ideas on wearable computers) than put
together something hackish today.
pos asks:
Do you think that a newer release of X will be sufficient
to carry linux for a few more years or do you think a
project like berlin (or some
other windowing system) deserves more programming weight put
behind it? Is X11 fit to carry all of the linux graphical
weight or is it becoming a dinosaur?
Mandrake answers:
Well, there's a lot you can do with X the way it's set up now (there are lots
of ways to invent shortcuts through the system). Unfortunately there is a bit
of dead weight behind it, though. However, I have said for a while that people
are cranky enough giving up windows apps (for the most part), a lot of people
are going to be even crankier giving up all their X applications. Backwards
compatibility would be key for a new system - even though that tends to be a
lot of the weight dragging most systems down. It's a vicious cycle. I met the
berlin folks a year or more ago at Linux Expo in Raliegh - and I was thinking
at the time that they would have more to show sooner (but then again the
enlightenment ACTUAL release cycle is slow as xmas, so who am I to talk?)...
I'm hopeful of new solutions but I don't necessarily see anything in the
immediate future, but I have to say for now that xfree86 3.9 is pretty cool
(4.0 will be a good release, by my gut feeling).
Note: if you have anyone in particular you'd like Slashdot to interview, please send your suggestions to roblimo@slashdot.org. I read 'em all.
Re:Interface Consistency (Score:1)
for document-based appications you could have 'pluggable menus', you could do a merge of predefined menus with customized ones..
like a 'File' menu could be
"New" (1)
"Open" (1)
"Save" (1)
"Save As" (1)
--------
Print Setup (2)
Print (2b)
--------
Preferences (3)
--------
Exit (4)
The programmer chooses which menus he would like to use (I would use all the above) and they are automatically pulled from the settings so you get the actual text to be displayed, the key combinations, etc.
Try it with DFM (Score:1)
Drawbacks: It parses directories slower than GMC, and it's weird and uncomfortable until you learn the keyboard shortcuts. Other than that, it's great.
Check it out:
http://www-c.informatik.uni-hannover.de/~kaiser
Groucho
Re:GNOME/KDE working nice (Score:1)
KDE is slow, GNOME w/ Enlightenment is slow, Window maker is fast, and 4Dwm, SGI's default, is the fastest... the sad thing is that I cant use GNOME or Window Maker with MAYA... the key combo for rotating the scene is the same as moving the window... alt-mouse button...
And I almost had my IRIX box fully GNU'ed out...
GNOME/KDE working nice (Score:1)
If you're extremely masochistic, I suppose you can run panel and kpanel on the same desktop. I tried (in kwm, and it managed to eat 128MB RAM within seconds.
Re:Windows UI consistent? (Score:1)
SUbjhect? (Score:1)
Re:no root window clicks? (Score:1)
For example, if you have the Gnome/enlightenment combo (the one that comes with redhat 6), the default behaviour is that the middle mouse button call the enlightenment menu, and the right mouse button calls the gmc menu. But if you upgrade to a later version of E (where all three mouse buttons have menus) you get a conflict between the E right button menu and the gmc right button menu, and both show up, often with less than useful results.
It could be a matter for discussion which should take the root window clicks, the window manager or the integrated desktop, but there should be only one, or at least some way to specify or arbitrate the response, and I think this is kind of what Mandrake is getting at. Besides, gmc is an app, and it probably shouldn't get the clicks anyway. They should go to either the WM or the gnome panel.
Actually, I agree (Score:1)
Great. Who gives a fuck? (Score:1)
Re:nuts.... (Score:1)
it will require an OpenGL Xserver.
Re:no root window clicks? (Score:1)
Forgive the question, but I haven't upgraded E beyond the one that came with RH6. Is this something you can configure? Mandrake was talking about how important it is to him that things be configurable by the user. Since this conflict would seem to be an obvious problem when using E with GNOME (which, I assume, many people do), I would imagine that it would be a good candidate for such configurability.
Of course you can configure it, at least from E's side. You can change the binding for the right-click menu to something else (e.g., left button). I don't know if you can change gmc's behavior, though.
And, for what it's worth, I think that if you're going to impliment a desktop on the root window, it makes much more sense to have the file manager do it than the window manager, since it is supposed to be just a graphical representation for a directory, right? You would want it to look and behave like all the other directories do...in the file manager you're using. But, then, since you might be primarily using one of any number of file managers, you need the ability to turn off such functionality in each.
That is a Windows philosophy! Evil!
In X, the "desktop" is a window, not a file or a directory, and the window manager is in charge of it. If a file manager wants to trespass on what has always been window manager territory, it should ask nicely first. gmc doesn't.
Re:no root window clicks? (Score:1)
*sigh*
Of course *somebody* needs to get the root window clicks. Enlightenment does that. So does just about every window manager on the planet. What he is trying to say is that any application that is *not* the window manager should *not* intercept root window clicks. It's Naughty(tm).
This is not to preclude the concept of an integrated environment. There should certainly *be* a desktop, and objects on that desktop, but it should be up to the window manager, not the file manager, to handle them.
If you ask me, a truly integrated environment requires that the window manager and the file manager be intimately intertwined, so the best practice is often to have them be the same application.
Re:no root window clicks? (Score:1)
Umm...I thought the "desktop" was a Windows philosphy.
Apparently you've never heard of "Macintosh" or "Amiga." :-)
I didn't say it was bad to have a paradigm where the desktop acts like a directory. I meant that it is very Windows-ish to say that the desktop IS a directory.
Asking would be good. But, then you need a standard way to ask, don't you? Is there or could there be one?
Of course there could, and there should, be one. And the designers of the subsystem should have created it *before* snarfing mouse clicks that didn't belong to them. :-)
Re:no root window clicks? (Score:1)
Re:no root window clicks? (Score:1)
Yes, the root window is the wm teritory, so apps need the wm's cooperation to make use of it. That is why the gnome wm hints (soon to be replaced with a desktop neutral set of hints, which is a joint effort between wm and desktop authors) were created.
Re:GNOME/KDE working nice (Score:1)
When you say gnome is slow, which parts are slow? If you run it without gmc, is it still slow? If you run it without panel does it speed up? Or do you find the apps slow? One of the nice things about gnome (and kde) is that you don't have to run everything all the time.
Last post. (Score:1)
so i begun a thread on a new story.
LAST POST!
Anyone posting after this post will die painfully.
You can continue on this thread if you worship budhah and have only 3 fingers -
But you'll have to use the subject line "Oogah majihombi".
Anyone refusing to this rule will die a slow and painful death,
while snails will eat you alive.
Enjoy!
---
The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck,
Keep the interviews coming (Score:1)
Who's next... Linus?
Gnome Panel not an (ordinary) app, you say? (Score:1)
It should definitely be the WM, since the gnome panel is just an ordinary app that happens to look like the Windows9x/NT taskbar, although far superior to it (the system doesn't get unusable if it crashes (which it doesn't do anyway :))
---
Ilmari
Great Q&A article! (Score:1)
It works! Keep it up!
Interface Consistency (Score:1)
See the June '99 issue of Dr. Dobb's Journal article on concept oriented programming. I don't thing the guy's ideas are as general as he claims, but a dictionary of simple data items would be a really useful thing.
Anyone want to start a standard with me? Email if you!
no root window clicks? (Score:1)
While I can see where he's coming from regarding this (purity and correctness of the application), in order to have a "Desktop" --a la Windoze, Mac, BeOS, and anything with a remotely decent Desktop Environment, you NEED to be able to get root window clicks. Now, one can debate the usefulness of a desktop, but let's not (though my experience has shown me that it is a very useful, time-saving thing), how else could you implement aa desktop?
Re:Windows UI consistent? (Score:1)
Test Post (Score:1)
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Re:Test Post (Score:1)
1234567890
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abcdefghijklm
Re:Test Post (Score:1)
abcdefghijklm
Re:no root window clicks? (Score:1)
For example, look at WindowMaker, it takes all of the root window clicks. I don't see why Enlightenment can't do this as well. The right click menu for GMC is pretty weak any way.
3D desktops (Score:1)
nuts.... (Score:1)
Re:nuts.... (Score:1)
GUI for the lowest common denominator (Score:1)
Windows I just never was able to figure out. Every single time (which is not many, mind you) that I have ever tried to use Windows, I have ended up frustrated. After receiving my NT laptop here at my latest job, it took less than 2 days for me to decide to scrub the disk and load Linux on it. There was just no way I was going to be productive in Windows...
context sensitive clicks? (Score:1)
Is there a way to do this now in E? If not, is it planned for the future?
Re:WindowMaker! (Score:1)
Windows UI consistent? (Score:1)
What version of Windows is mindslip using? I've always found Mac OS applications to be a thousand times more consistent than Windows applications. Maybe he's just talking about MS Office, though, which apparently will be part of Windows soon enough.
And Microsoft spending money on usability and human interface testing? Puh-leaze! Apple wrote human interface guidelines back in the mid-80s before Windows even existed. Microsoft simply copied the Mac's GUI, and did a poor job of it at that. Windows 95 and 98 were much better than 3.1 (and even added a few features that Mac users envied and eventually copied), but 'consistent interface' are not words I'd use to describe any version Windows or its various applications.
More research needs to be done for human interface guidelines and usability in general, though. Neither X nor Mac OS nor Windows is anywhere close to the ultimate GUI.
See Jakob Nielsen's [useit.com] book, Coordinating User Interfaces for Consistency [useit.com] and his Alertbox [useit.com] column for May 1997 titled "Web Design vs. GUI Design" [useit.com] for more talk about user interface design. The Anti-Mac [acm.org] paper is also interesting reading.
Re:no root window clicks? (Score:2)
I believe that it should be the wm that handles this, but that gets in the way of the wm independence that GNOME, and to a lesser extent, KDE try to achieve.
Re:Windows UI consistent? (Score:2)
The only specific problems I've seen on Windows are:
+ Dragging an icon in the explorer does different things in different places - better to just right-drag and make sure that it does the right thing.
+ The Windows standard file dialog is confused by shortcut icons. Microsoft is too retarded to fix this prominent bug.
+ Some older programs don't have a File menu, instead having a Game menu or something. Some Mac apps have this problem too.
+ MS Office has it's own standard file dialog. Why? Who knows. (Some Mac apps also do this.)
+ The IE-based Explorer doesn't seem to remember view settings very well.
On the other hand, the Mac is not free of problems --
+ Toolbars are often absent or inconsistantly implemented. Chalk this up to MS giving away toolbar widgets with VC and VB, which means that most Windows apps have similar toolbars.
+ Many Mac applications don't recognize keys on an extended keyboard. I think Apple owns this - their standard controls don't seem to support Ins, Del, Home, and End.
+ Keyboard navigation is very inconsistant if you try to do anything other than Cut/Copy/Paste/Quit.
In short, the Mac's UI advantages largely lie in system features which make it easier to configure your computer. I don't see that the actual applications are all that much better or more consistant than Windows.
--
hee hee (Score:2)
the "may i have your children?" really got me
hoo! what a riot!