QWERTY, Dvorak and More 193
We've mentioned stuff related to this in the past, but
louridas sent us an interesting article called
The Myth of the Keys which talks about how Dvorak isn't really any faster than QWERTY, but the most interesting part is how this relates to the MS AntiTrust case.
Dvorak faster than Dvorak (Score:1)
Hope the item gets editted for clarity. (Score:2)
Deja Moo: The feeling that
Re:Dvorak faster than Dvorak (Score:1)
Very true (Score:1)
Science is supposed to be impartial (Score:4)
Unfortunately, everyone cares about keyboard design. We've all spent years learning how to type, so we have a large investment in a QWERTY layout, while those few people who've spent the even larger investment to relearn a DVORAK keyboard are extremely unlikely to turn around and admit (even if only to themselves) that this was a mistake!
It would be interesting to do a truly neutral study, using a bunch of kids who haven't yet learned either method, but despite all the research quoted in this article, it seems that nobody has actually done that! Retraining existing typists is a useful test in practical terms, but doesn't tell us anything about which is the best design in an abstract sense.
Old, bad research. (Score:3)
The short of it - the economic discussions might be fair, but the DVORAK argument is not.
Dvorak faster than Dvorak? (Score:2)
--
Also See... (Score:3)
Typing Errors [reasonmag.com] in Reason magazine.
Network Effects, Path Dependence and Lock-In [utdallas.edu]
DISMAL SCIENCE FICTIONS Network Effects, Microsoft, and Antitrust Speculation [cato.org]
The whole catch is... (Score:3)
Learning is a bitch. Once you learn one way, it's extremely hard to go to another way. Take me for example. I learned QWERTY when I was around 8 years old, and I didn't learn the "five-finger" method or anything like that. My method of typing is basically hunt and peck, with the advantage that I know from memory where the keys are. I get around 50-60 words a minute with no mistakes. I simply know my keyboard. Almost all my typing is done with 4 fingers out of 10. It generally upsets people who see me type, especially if they learned "the right way".
But that's just me and I'm odd anyway.
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QWERTY, QWERTZ, AZERTY and DVORAK (Score:1)
This article is better described as a book, though.
I have a question to throw at everyone - maybe it could even be a
How do you pronounce "dvorak"?
( ) de-vo-rack
( ) de-vor-jak
Re:My dvorak is faster than your dvorak (Score:1)
Each machine in the cluster is given a word and has to say "Yes, this word is right" or "No, this word is incorrect." This kind of innovative massive paralellism allows the machines to check for validity without ever actually checking for validity.
previous experience (Score:3)
I agree, because in retraining someone to do something another way, you get one of 3 possibilities:
Such a situation incorporates the biases of the person, and ruins the empiricality of the experiment because the person as already been tainted by previous experience! As you suggested, they should take a group of people (children, most likely) who've never been presented with a keyboard before (never seen one, anything), and teach some how to type on a QWERTY keyboard, and some on a DVORAK keyboard, and see which group is faster, etc, etc.. And then they can begin to go back and do studies on
I think that once experiments like these were conducted, the greater part of the [computing] world would be eager to know the results... and we all know why...
My $0.02 worth
Dvorak vs QWERTY (Score:4)
The only real difference I've found between em is that I make less typos with the Dvorak (the "teh" mistake disapeared almost completely) and my wrists don't hurt much anymore (they used to hurt with qwerty after 6 or 7hr of typing).
I don't think Dvorak makes you faster, but it does make for a better typing experience, since you really use all fingers with it.
Vox, a Dvorak convert
Article (Score:1)
Somebody needs to send this guy a note on brevity.
Yep (Score:2)
It is in the interest of pro-lassaiz-faire folk to deny network effects exist, since such effects point up a prime failing of the free market. Customers must be completely free to choose the best product. Unfortunately for them, I've heard far too much anecdotal evidence to the contrary.
Every time an article about applications for Linux comes up, for example, there are invariably a cascade of talkbacks and comments along the lines of, "Yeah, these are good applications, and I like them, but they don't have good enough compatibility with [Word|Excel|Access|Insert other here].
Deny as they wish, I'm already convinced.
Kythe
(Remove "x"'s from
Re:The whole catch is... (Score:1)
I used to type like that, and it wasn't until I bludgeoned myself into touch typing and suffered through an entire summer of 10 wpm that I started getting good at it.
I consider it to be very much like using Windows: humans adapting to a poor design, then becoming so familiar with it that they never want it to change.
~~~~~~~~~~
Re:Dvorak faster than Dvorak (Score:1)
Pronunciation and keyboard memorization (Score:2)
He pronounced it:
dvorak, anyone? (Score:1)
Old, bad, unconvincing as well (Score:1)
Kythe
(Remove "x"'s from
I use Dvorak (Score:1)
Just recently (past three months) I've gone dual keyboard. I can type on either system now.
I've found that my speed is about the same on either layout. However I'm faster on my Kinesis because of the improved ergo features. IE the keys are arranged in columns rather than on the diagonals, and the keyboard is concave, because fingers are not all the same length.
The part that I lke the most is that I don't have to move my fingers as much. Having a home row that consists of "aoeuidhtns" vs "asdfghjkls" is great.
Re:QWERTY, QWERTZ, AZERTY and DVORAK (Score:1)
YMMV though
One of these days, I'll actually get to play with a dvorak keyboard then..
Re:Old, bad research. (Score:3)
-- Numerous "quoted" "words."
-- Use of exclamation marks.
-- Proving claims by lack of evidence rather than by the presence of it.
-- Numerous unecessarily bold words.
-- Judgmental words like "spew", "aspersion", "takes a swipe at"
-- Hedge words like "probably" and "might"
-- Use of speculative "what-if" scenarios
-- Confuses number of sources with quality of conclusion
-- Relies on speculation on the motives and intentions of persons now dead
-- Uses his father as a source
-- More, but why find them?
So what (Score:1)
"This is a new layout and I dont like it."
was roughly 75% right hand. If my KB was a twiddler, maybe...
REBUTTAL - "The Fable of the Fable" (Score:4)
It starts out:
And then goes on to thoroughly examine and refute the cited points- Seth Finkelstein
Re:QWERTY, QWERTZ, AZERTY and DVORAK (Score:1)
Well, de-vor-ack obviously (well, that first e should be a schwa of course, but...) if you're spelling it as above. However, if it gets all the nifty punctuation (like Anton Dvorak), then it becomes de-vor-zhock.
Independent Indeed (Score:2)
Re:So what (Score:1)
m-m-manitee
I tried Dvorak for a while.. (Score:1)
Kinesis has kick ass ones! (Score:1)
Drawback? $250. Trust me, it's time and money well spent.
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com
There are layouts for lefties and one-handers (Score:1)
I don't have a link, but Google will set you up I bet.
The true test (Score:1)
Of course, neither layout can overcome the limitations of a keyboard whose keys are lined up in horizontal rows, but my DataHand [datahand.com] testimonials aren't suited to this thread.
Re:The whole catch is... (Score:1)
I was exactly like this until about 6 months ago, when I decided to learn Dvorak for kicks. It actually worked out great because now I can type even faster and it's easier to read or talk while typing. The nice thing about Dvorak in this case is that I didn't have any "bad habits" to break. So for me relearning the keyboard allowed me to break my bad typing habits.
Re:Dvorak faster than Dvorak (Score:1)
And I wouldn't have it any other way.
--
Re:QWERTY, QWERTZ, AZERTY and DVORAK (Score:1)
I am saying it right.
(Whatever the majority thinks tends to be considers right.
dVORzhak! keyboards rule...
oh wait...
here's the pronunciation key
(d&-)'vor-"zhäk - write that ten times quickly...
Where to get Dvorak? (Score:1)
Blah, blah, blah... (Score:2)
All my friends who switched to Dvorak have increased speed from their QWERTY days. Personally, I learned to touch-type in school in a semester and maxed out at 60/70 wpm after a few years. Later, I taught myself Dvorak. In about two weeks, I had completely forgotten QWERTY and was basic in Dvorak. After not too much longer, I tested at 90 wpm in Dvorak. A significant increase. Because I was taking comp sci classes in school throughout, I was forced to accidentally remember QWERTY (it's not forgotten, just pushed aside). Now I can type at my previous speeds in that as well, with no switching time and only a little annoyance over punctuation, which is typed less frequently. I feel that if I wasn't forced to hold myself back by using QWERTY all the time, I could become even faster in Dvorak.
Anyway, I don't know about all the so-called "tests" that have taken place, but from personal and observed experience, Dvorak is faster and more elegant, and takes very little time to learn. QWERTY just feels jumbled to me. It seems fairly unlikely that a mostly random misplacement of the keys could be more optimal than a statistically developed one.
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Foolish people (Score:2)
I like my layout. It's faster, feels better, works better. No amount of study, scientific or otherwise, is going to change my personal experience.
I Learned Dvorak (Score:2)
I don't mean to say that it's not possible to type as fast on a Dvorak as it is on a QWERTY. But I found there to be little advantage to the Dvorak and, to be honest, I found it awkward. This is likely related to the fact that I've been using the standard keyboard layout for 14 years. Still, with all the time that I spent on Dvorak, I'd like to think that I found have found some improvement.
The idea that the most-accessed keys are on the homerow is a cool idea, but it slowed me down. I type with all of my fingers, but I don't always hit the keys with the textbook-correct fingers. As a result, Dvorak makes me use, say, my index finger for the QWERTY-equlivalent ASD and F. Theoretically, this would be faster if I could use all four fingers on my left hand with equal agility. But, because I can't type perfectly, I found that it was slower to use Dvorak.
There are other examples, but they're pretty much the same deal. Essentially, I'm used to QWERTY, and I've let my typing become less-than-perfect to adapt to it. Would be better on Dvorak if I'd started on it? Probably. But for most of us, QWERTY should do nicely.
(Sidenote: Dvorak is the best system security that you can get, especially if you switch your keycaps around. Ain't nobody can use your system.
So, economists like microsoft. (Score:1)
Heard it before, don't believe it now either.
I think these guys just like whatever is best right now. They feel QWERTY is better than DVORAK RIGHT NOW, probably cause somebody paid them too. They feel that MS is better than No-MS because MS pays a LOT of economists to think that way.
The fundamental point of view of an economists is "Anything that causes money to flow from other people to me is good for the economy."
I don't mean to be hypocritical, that's the way I feel, too, but I don't get cited as an expert on these things.
Yet another Dvorkian... :) (Score:1)
I can touch type with both. I type 20-30 wpm faster on Dvorak, and it's noticably more comfortable, as many people have said. You don't really know how awful Qwerty really is until you learn Dvorak and then switch back- it's so obvious it either 1) wasn't designed at all or 2) was designed to slow people down.
Typing on Qwerty now feels like I'm trying to tie my fingers in knots. Dvorak just.... flows.
The lesson should be.... (Score:2)
It's wrong, and you don't need to be a microeconomist to figure it out. It doesn't even matter which keyboard is "superior". People chose qwerty, end of story. True, there weren't many choices initially (one, I guess), but once that choice was made, nobody wanted much to change to another keyboard. The lesson? Standardization is more valuable than an "optimum" layout. People chose standardization, and the public settled for the first standard that came along. That's a valid market result.
Anecdotal evidence (Score:1)
One bit I did find interesting was the bit on the ergonomic studies, and the arguments that:
A. The loads on the right and left hands are equalized.
B. The load on the home (middle) row is maximized.
C. The frequency of alternating hand sequences is maximized and the frequency of same-finger typing is minimized.
It's Friday, so I think I'll hack together a keyboard monitor and see what keys I really hit. Then I'll do some unscientific analyses on the results. If anyone's already got a keyboard monitor, save me a bit of work,eh?
A significant new attribute (Score:1)
It seems to me that the solution of spreading alternating keystrokes to alternating hands might have solved not only the jamming problem, but also the wrists one, but reducing the stretching of the fingers and allowing some rest time between strokes. Sufficient spacing between the keys to avoid cramping is also necessary.
Re:QWERTY, QWERTZ, AZERTY and DVORAK (Score:2)
( ) de-vo-rack
( ) de-vor-jak
Actually, neither of the above. Dvorak (or Dvoøák, if you happen to have a Central European charset available), is originally a Czech name. The "r hook" sound does not exist in English, and to most English speakers sounds like either a "sh" or a "zh".
Amen! (Score:1)
Besides the fact I think the article is a load of crap
Re:dvorak, anyone? (Score:1)
I think it's a worthwhile expense, too. In a truly "Doh!" moment, I swapped around the keycaps on a spare keyboard, and now the keycap sculpting angles are randomized to the the point that attempting Dvorak is an uncomfortable typing experience. YMMV, I hope.
We've discussed THIS article before (Score:1)
We've discussed this EXACT article in the past. See: The Myth of QWERTY [slashdot.org].
Interesting attempt to infiltrate MS propoganda... (Score:3)
If you go up to their page about the MS anti-trust case, they put forward some evidence that prices of software products in markets where Microsoft compete have dropped much faster than prices in markets where Microsoft does not compete. At first glance this suggests that Microsoft is not a monopoly, since monopolies usually exert their influence to keep prices inflated.
However, the reasoning is fallacious:
Dvorak is STILL better (Score:2)
Re:REBUTTAL - "The Fable of the Fable" (Score:2)
You do however, have a point. The author's have an agenda and the information they present is designed to support that agenda. The publication in which the article appeared is the primary forum for "Chicago School" laissez faire economics, and they are trying to imply that network effects do not exist, or can be overcome by market mechanisms alone. They have a further agenda in doing that - their political sponsors want to support the case the government intervention in the economy (or more radical change away from a market economy) is unnecessary. This article supports that claim only by throwing mud at a classical example of network effects in the hope of casting doubt on the whole idea. It doesn't prove anything, but Chicago school economics rarely does.
The important point in the Liebowitz and Margolis paper is that there is little evidence for the idea that Dvorak's keyboard would have been a radically more sensible design to "lock in" that the QWERTY one. It is only marginally faster to train people in, and barely faster at all to use in experienced hands.
Re:Article (Score:1)
...phil
Re:Yep (Score:1)
And ancedotal evidence has how much scientific value? That's right, none.
Re:Where to get Dvorak? (Score:1)
This is a rerun (Score:1)
Re:dvorak, anyone? (Score:2)
My other problem is that there is a buffer underrun when my brain is providing the data to type.
Dvortyboards makes a regular keyborard that is switchable between dvorak and qwerty with the press of a button. The quality of the keyboard itself hasn't totally impressed me, though. You can buy one at www.dvortyboards.com.
Re:Kinesis has kick ass ones! (Score:1)
Hard for me to say much about Dvorak in particular since my typing has been much more comfortable because of the keyboard alone, my speed, comfort and accuracy have all gone up though.
Do you run with the peddle configuration?
Re:Independent Indeed (Score:1)
No evidence does not mean not better (Score:1)
Whatever the motivations, the dvorak layout has the look of having been "planned", and the QWERTY layout has the look of either having been slapped together randomly or antagonistically.
I have never met someone who properly started using dvorak (that is, cold turkey) who ever regretted it. Certainly testimonial evidence is not as good as scientifically rigorous testing (it could all be psychosematic), but it IS something. So we have
1. A biased scientific test
2. Hypothetical anagram test
3. Testimonial
Each alone would be severly suspect, but together they give a pretty clear picture that Dvorak has some advantages.
Remember: this article does not say Dvorak is no better than QWERTY.
Background: MS's questionable research papers (Score:2)
Microsoft's questionable research papers
An excerpt:
-- Seth Finkelstein
Re:Where to get Dvorak? (Score:1)
Re:Pronunciation and keyboard memorization (Score:1)
Looking at the Dvorak layout, similar reasoning might name it the Quote-y layout. Or possibly even the waka-waka [netfunny.com].
ÐÆ
Re:Yep (Score:1)
This is simply untrue. Anecdotal evidence is all that is needed to negate a claim that is based upon absolutes, such as a denial of network effects.
The controversy over the DVORAK keyboard is itself "anecdotal evidence".
Kythe
(Remove "x"'s from
Re:Yep (Score:1)
It seems to me it would be fairly easy to conduct a study of what people see as most important in a potential switch to another office suite.
Kythe
(Remove "x"'s from
Re:dvorak, anyone? (Score:1)
Just do a web search for "Introducing the Dvorak Keyboard" and you should find a site with plenty of information. Or just go hunting around in your Windows Control Panel, or use 'loadkeys' or 'xmodmap' in Linux: there might already be a dvorak keymap in
Their other Microsoft stuff (Score:1)
For instance, they claim that if Microsoft was a monopolist, they would raise their prices after getting a high market share, but that software prices in areas where Microsoft competes are actually decreasing faster than in other areas.
If Microsoft is dumping to get a monopoly, you would expect that prices would go down, not up--decreasing prices is exactly what one would expect. Increasing prices only happen afterwards.
To give an extreme example, Internet Explorer is free (of cost). That is certainly a price that went down, to zero.
Furthermore, the authors note that prices of software are going down. The price of Windows hasn't. Even by their own reasoning, the price of Windows is much more than what it should be had it followed the trend--i.e. Microsoft _is_ charging monopoly prices for Windows.
Re:Dvorak (Score:1)
many examples (Score:1)
Re:Science is supposed to be impartial (Score:3)
Sounds like human nature to me. Rare is the person who spends a lot of effort learning something like that and then turns around and says (either to themselves or out loud): ``Hey! What a waste of time that was!''.
Consider people you know who have invested a considerable amount of time and/or money becoming proficient in a particular activity and think about how open they are to different ways of doing things. For example,
I don't think we have to work very hard to think of many more examples.
Question: If Dvorak was supposed to be easier to use how come I had so damned much trouble back when I remapped my keyboard with Prokey and mvoed all my keycaps? And, since, I never really learned how to type (I consider my typing ability something like advanced ``hunting and pecking''.) it couldn't have been having to ``unlearn'' an old typing technique.
Re:Dvorak is STILL better (Score:1)
Joseph Kain
Re:Science is supposed to be impartial (Score:1)
Question: If Dvorak was supposed to be easier to use how come I had so damned much trouble back when I remapped my keyboard with Prokey and mvoed all my keycaps? And, since, I never really learned how to type (I consider my typing ability something like advanced ``hunting and pecking''.) it couldn't have been having to ``unlearn'' an old typing technique.
It sounds to me like you've never actually learned Dvorak. Sorry to state the obvious, but that is a prerequisite to using it. Also note that Dvorak is not "supposed to be easier to use". That is not the claim. I suggest you seek a Dvorak FAQ and compare the actual claims to that which you have stated.
Re:Science is supposed to be impartial (Score:1)
Re:Independent Indeed (Score:1)
Dvorak is a challenger to an entrenched QWERTY standard. Some studies show that the continued dominance of QWERTY may be explained by the effects of path dependence. The Independent Institute tries to refute this with a weak-logic argument.
Netscape and Linux are challengers to an entrenched Microsoft standard. Some studies show that the continued dominance of MSDOS/Windows may be explained by the effects of path dependence. The Independent Institute tries to refute this with a weak-logic argument.
Re:Yep (Score:1)
Of course, anecdotal evidence is "unscientific". That's why more studies should be done as to what concerns people have regarding switching.
My relating the concerns of others to you is anecdotal. That does not mean the concerns themselves are anecdotal -- and one has only to check archives to determine how many people voice them.
The statements of concerns for compatibility, far from being anecdotal evidence, are real social evidence that can be studied -- and in my experience and opinion, they disprove the denial of network effects.
Kythe
(Remove "x"'s from
We need a NEW keyboard ! (Score:2)
i.e.
Instead of arguing which keyboard is better, why can't we design a better one? (with respect to key layout)
Come on you people in kinesiology, do some ergonomics studies, and design a better keyboard.
If we already have a better/new keyboard, does anyone have any links? (I'm intereseted in NON QWERTY and Dvorak keyboards.)
Cheers
What this all means for Linux... (Score:1)
standard, then it is not likely that Linux could
ever unseat Microsoft Windows products, no matter
how much better.
But the lesson of the article (and much academic
research in the same vein) is that path-dependence
is much overblown and much overestimated as a force in the economy. If Linux is better (it is!)
then we should see exactly what we are seeing now -- development, both technical and business-systems, on many simultaneous fronts to
facilitate the conversion of the world.
Far from being a pro-Microsoft article, the conclusion here is more that the Right Thing
_can_ win out.
Get the Savant keypad (Score:1)
I would advise getting the Savant keypad rather than the footswitch. If you key a lot of numbers (IP's included), this will save you a lot of wear and tear on your keypad button.
Re:Foolish people (Score:1)
have you noticed lately that windows ppl post more than linux ppl?
Re:There are layouts for lefties and one-handers (Score:1)
--neil
Re:dvorak, anyone? (Score:1)
--neil
Re:We need a NEW keyboard ! (Score:1)
yeah its $200, but if you want a nice alternative keyboard w/out remaping keys by hand, you'll have to shell out around that much anyhow
it fits in the palm of one hand, and leaves the other hand free, and guess what its a mouse too
i just got one for my wearable puter that i'm working on (slowly). played with it a little bit, it is hard at first, but no harder than dvorak was at first, and as a major plus if you don't like the key layout you can easily change it, although the letters printed on there would be wrong then, the way i intend to hold it, i won't see those anyhow
i guess i'll end up being trilingual keyboard wise (qwerty, dvorak, twiddler)
Re:So, economists like microsoft. (Score:1)
in fact, The Economist magazine is one of the voices again MS monopoly, i believe the last discussion is in jannuary.
why do you think all people should have to same emotions towards this issue? why do you think everyone should pick sides? I am a CS student so i do have very strong emotions towards this issue, but i also understand, to economists, MS is simply a very well tuned economic example.
one of the prof did comment on the Bill Gate, as a great marketer. i do not consider that a praise at all. it's a rather emotionless description.
Re:Kinesis has kick ass ones! (Score:1)
Surely any keyboard is 'switchable' between different layouts - just tell xmodmap or xkeyboard or keyb.com or the kernel or whatever to change the mapping.
"market"? standardization? (Score:1)
your claim: nobody want to change to another keybaord.
your mistake: you didn't look at other posts.
your claim: standardization is good.
you mistake:it should have been "standardization, WHILE NOT COSTING US MORE MONEY(ie, MONOPOLY) , is good." but then again you are probably using IE to type this post.
Lastly, for your info, "Monopolistic Market" is regarded as "Market FAilure" in economy. Therefore, in economic terms, (using your very goofy definition of standardization) Standardization is Market failure. now does that make sense to you? no? it's because there's something wrong with your claim as states earlier.
Economists -- workers of the "dismal science" (Score:1)
I thought about calling this "Economists: Whores and Pimps" but thought that might draw too many 'Flamebait' moderations ... :^)
Some observations on economists and their activity in a slightly different industry than computers. These are from Wendell Berry's Home Economics [amazon.com]:
Disclaimer: I studies just enough economics in college to learn some of the vocabulary, but not enough to get brainwashed into taking economists pronouncements seriously...
My 20 years on Dvorak (and 1 on Kinesis) (Score:1)
over to Dvorak in 1980. I will never go back;
QWERTY is too slow, too error-prone, and too
fatiguing. My speed increased from 40wpm to 70wpm
within a year of the change, but more importantly
my error rate was about 2/3 lower and typing was
much less fatiguing.
I've used the Kinesis keyboard for a year now, and
I don't ever want to go back to straight
keyboards. My speed went up about 20% with the
Kinesis, and my error rate is a bit lower too.
The Kinesis Essential is available for about $210
shipped. See the
[kinesis-ergo.com]
Kinesis homepage for vendors; I have had good
prices and service from Softek Business Systems.
I too would like to see some unbiased scientific
studies of Dvorak vs. QWERTY. Until then I will
listen to my hands and observe my error rate; both
tell me clearly that QWERTY is perverse and
unergonomic.
For Linux users, there is a Dvorak remap file for
xmodmap in the
is"xdvorak.xmodmap".
Article fully admits Dvorak is better, but... (Score:1)
Obviously, this article argues largely from a lack of evidence, and so doesn't prove that the inertia's not excessive. But its thesis is at least plausible; I know a lot of people who would not be happy if the world switched to Dvorak. Can you imagine how your average user would scream if suddenly they had to learn how to type all over again? And it's not just that they don't know what's good for them. If you're never going to be an excellent typist, the hassle of relearning the layout probably won't ever repay itself.
C code. C code run. (Score:1)
"The Christmas we get, we deserve." -- Greg Lake
Re:I use Dvorak (Score:1)
Unfortunately, I move around and use a half dozen machines around the labs at work. Nobody would be amused with me taking down emulators and such to replace the keyboard each time I use a particular piece of equipment because my ego demanded it.
I can telnet into the OS/2 machines from my main 'desktop' to the build runs on, but not the embedded OS/2 machines the product resides within.
Oh well. Life is rough. Keyboards are all necessary evils.
Re:Independent Indeed (Score:1)
A decade ago there was Macintosh. Now there is Linux. Both have their relative merits as opposed to what "the majority" use. But there will always be zealots who get their kicks in rattling cages, playing "mine is better" games, etc.
It doesn't matter much. But it's amusing to watch their antics.
Good (Score:1)
There are many economists who treat historical evidence as important, in addition to theory. Unfortunately, there are many who don't. They tend to ignore or use convoluted routes to explain how free-market theory deals with externalities.
Of course, it's only the really radical folk who believe the market never fails. These are the ones who tend to back Microsoft, frequently on the grounds that antitrust law is bad in the first place.
Kythe
(Remove "x"'s from
Preach on, brother (Score:1)
The referenced article only used Dvorak peripherally, however, to try to support a rather teunuos and IMHO incorrect supposition about economics. They could just have easily used Twinkies. They evidently started down the Beta-VHS track, but found too many dessicated corpses littering that trail and turned back.
My advice to them, and to the other Packers (not the Green Bay variety) out there: Tha-a-a-at's right, there's nothing to see here, move along quietly now. Just keep on using QWERTY, and MS-Windows, and gas-burning autos and all that. Buy everything you see advertised on the telly. Those of us who are using Dvorak, and Linux, and Ada, and Esperanto, why, we're all cranks and eccentrics and dreamers. We're not gaining a-a-a-a-any advantage whatsoever by our non-mainstream behaviors, no sirree. Nuh-uh, nope. Trust me--have I ever lied to you?
Re:Old, bad research; I agree, plus bad formatting (Score:1)
Why is it that the QWERTY b!tches never admit that their system stinks? It just makes logical sense to put the common characters on the home row (ASDGHJKL;:'" - what a bunch of crap designed to slow people down). The very idea of Dvorak is to minimize excessive motion, If you say it doesn't, you have not analyzed the situation. While it may not be much faster, it might slow down CTS.
I think there is easily be a better system then both, but I have other things to worry about.
Doesn't this remind you... (Score:1)
Re:Yep (Score:1)
1) QWERTY is more efficient than DVORAK. If this is the case there is no market failure, since this is the way the world works today.
2) DVORAK is more efficient than QWERTY. Really this has two sub cases:
2a) DVORAK is more efficient than QWERTY, but the cost of retraining everyone, new equipment, etc.. outweighs the benefits of switching. There is no market failure in this case either.
2b) DVORAK is more efficient than QWERTY, and the benefits of switching outweigh the cost. And really, if this were the case, we would have switched by now.
Dvorak security (Score:1)
Then it got to be upgrade time. (I love the fact that everyone else uses NT, because it forces our machines to be upgraded every few months. My Linux box doesn't really need to be a P-III 450, but it doesn't hoit.) After I got past my pleasant visions of the Dell reclamation department gazing aghast at the rearranged keys on my old keyboard, I started to pry off the first keycap on my new keyboard. Then it hit me--I'd been using it all morning with the keys in their current positions, and hadn't cared a whit. I had learned Dvorak by touch. So I left them as they were. The next time an admin wanted to shell up to root, I asked him if he could touch-type Dvorak. Guess what his answer was. (You're close, but there were more swear words.)
I shoulda let him think he'd forgotten his password.
The Fable of Competation between QWERTY and Dvorak (Score:2)
When in fact you can remap your keyboard using software, and put stickers on the keycaps. (Shuffling the keycaps around won't work all that well because on most keyboards, the keycaps from different rows have different shapes). (Some of us wouldn't need the stickers; it would not impede me at all if the key labels were sanded right off).
Moreover, choosing a keyboard layout is personal preference. If you choose a Dvorak layout, you won't suddenly be a technological outcast who is unable to use computer software. (Except that, you will be stuck to having to implement your customization in every environment, whereas if you type QWERTY, you don't need to customize anything).
Re:Science is supposed to be impartial (Score:2)
I find it pretty doubtful that every last person who ever learned Dvorak has a psychological barrier to admitting to the truth. That type of point is a dangerous point for anyone to accept in any context: Free software is a waste of time, but no one wants to admit it because of all the time they spent on it.
I've been using only Dvorak for fourteen months, and I've managed to get my typing speed up to the 120wpm it was in QWERTY. I don't claim to type faster. It's probably a mental limit, as I stopped increasing my speed when I reached 120wpm in QWERTY as well.
Rather, I type with less mistakes. Furthermore, Dvorak's localised vowels lends itself to chording, which is putting your fingers over every key of a word at once, and pressing them with about 70 milliseconds apart.
Boo-bab.
Cost of switching and network effects (Score:2)
Laissez-faire economists like to say that the cost of switching to another office suite, rather than staying with Microsoft, outweighs the benefits of switching to another suite; and therefore, there is no market failure. They ignore the huge and ruinous long-term costs of staying with Microsoft.
If Microsoft did not have a monopoly position that enabled it to exploit "network effects", would everyone bother upgrading to the latest version of Office every single time? The most commonly used Office application, Microsoft Word, has not changed appreciably since version 6.0.
However, since Microsoft is fond of making their file formats non-backwards-compatible (often with automatic conversions whenever someone opens a document), people using Microsoft products to exchange documents with each other are effectively coerced into switching whenever one employee, department, or client in the network upgrades to Microsoft products. No user wants to deal with this, but they must upgrade anyway; not when they feel the need for more features (which almost nobody does, for Office) but whenever Microsoft feels like releasing a new edition of its viral applications into the market.
Of course, according to the laissez-faire people, the present cost of staying with Microsoft is still lower than switching, so there is no such thing as network effects. But that's the very definition of network effects: the result of using a greedy algorithm over a network where such an algorithm is non-optimal.
This whole issue shows how dangerous it is to take advice about technical issues from people who have a vested interest in supporting a particular economic model.
~k.lee
[0] Maybe the authors are right, and maybe they aren't; I type at 100+ wpm, and unless I am going to get a huge speedup (> 200 wpm) in typing speed I am not going to bother switching one way or the other.
Flawed assumptions (Score:2)
As somebody who's been playing the piano for about 15 years I find it quite hard to believe that alternating hand sequences is the optimal typing pattern - it's one of the hardest things to do quickly!
Take for example typing the four keys on each hand in their natural resting position. You can probably type "asdf;lkj" about 4 times a second, but you'd be hard pressed to type "a;sldkfj" more than 1.5 times a second. This is why in all your early piano lessons you put those finger numbers over all the notes - you find the optimum pattern that flows easily (and usually sequentially) across fingers in the same hand.
Most articles of this type also assume a standard "touch typing" style. Touch typing may be the optimal pattern if your hands are to stay in the same position, but who says you have to keep your hands stationary? I tend to type with my hands drifting about the keyboard slightly depending on the sequence to be typed.
After trying Dvorak for a few months, I decided there was no way I could match the 150wpm that I currently manage with QWERTY. QWERTY suffers less from the alternating hands syndrome than Dvorak, and as such I'll be sticking with QWERTY. The one thing I can say for Dvorak is that it does put less strain on the hands overall.