Design Patterns in Mozilla Contest 62
Heikki Toivonen writes " The "Design Patterns in Mozilla" contest is now underway. The goal is to find and document as many design patterns as possible in the Mozilla source, with the chance to win an autographed copy of "Design Patterns: Elements of Reusable Object-Oriented Software" by Gamma et. al. and gift certificates to Amazon.com. Visit the contest rules page to learn about the details, regarding the two phases of the contest, the submission rules, the source you need to use, and the prizes. "
Re:LOOK KIDS!!! (Score:1)
Sorry, Microsoft has Open-sourced Windows CE yet.
In the meantime, I'm helping to develop, for myself, a top-rate web browser.
Many cheers to Netscape, and AOL, for facilitating such a wonderful project, that will do so many things for me.
-Brent--
Re:Right idea, wrong execution (Score:1)
Re:Some prize (Score:1)
at worst. Assuming Rose doesnt choke (a big
assumption!) its always a good laugh to see it
trying to reverse-engineer a huge project...
but anyway there have been papers at recent
OOPSLAs on pattern mining in large scale projects.
Some academic will just point his manic miner
at the code and win the prize.
Fortunately for me I dont feel tempted, I
already have an autographed copy of the GoF book
:o) (well, by one of the four anyway)
- Design Fanboy
Patterns, shmatterns... (Score:4)
BUT:
it's kinda boring - especially if you have enough experience for the patterns to be familiar.
Worse, it encourages people to think of software design as a kind of mix and match mechanical process. That is, I believe people should focus on coming up with elegent solutions for their particular problem, and if at the end they say - oh I've used a singleton here and a factory there... then great. The problem arises when people start thinking, well i've got a design
problem here - what category of pattern fits best ? Er, lets see, well I think I should use a "composite object" here, now what group of classes are used to implement that...
Next thing you know someone has churned out a whole shitload of classes, with only the vaguest notion of what they are for, AND THAT'S THE DESIGNER, but with a preposterous belief that he has a good design because he "followed the rules of OO design". And don't even get me started on that Rational Rose/UML crap.
Don't get me wrong. I believe understanding patterns is a good thing. But, it's often used as one more straw to clutch for people who don't really know what they're doing. Like every other technique in software - someone smart creates
something to make life easier, but quite a few people will then take that and use it as an excuse to think less.
Software has gone through this process frequently (assemblers, compilers, procedural software, OO, patterns) at each stage the bar is lowered you make it possible for idiots to create more complex software. It's dangerous. This is why many people prefer C to C++ (not me). Show some piece of MFC based crap to an experienced C programmer and they will recoil in horror, I don't blame them. The more powerful the tools, the bigger piece of vaguely working rubbish an idiot come up with. There is no antidote to sloppy thinking.
Powerful tools make life easier, but paradoxically
require more, not less experience to use well. Having seen what utter crap can be produced when lousy programmers get their hands on OO languages, I shudder to think what monstrosities will be around in a few years time as a result of patterns.
Basically, I'm saying anyone who designs/writes OO software should be aware of patterns, (and UML etc), but then ignore them and concentrate on the actual specific problem. If you're good you will find your own patterns.
To summarise: if you let children play with power tools, you end up with a big fucking mess.
Perhaps AOL/Netscape should add cash prizes ? (Score:1)
Mozilla is very definitely short on documentation -- anything that generates good explanations of the code (and well-grounded design critiques too) must be a good thing.
Plus I really like the idea of Moz becoming a standard reference for academic analysis, and for academic teaching. This kind of scrutiny can only help Mozilla; and what better than possibly the world's most ambitious open-source end-user application to give students an idea of the realities of a real software project ?
AOL/Netscape must have spent several millions so far on developer salaries for Mozilla. Seems to me that putting up x hundred dollars for first, second and third prizes in contests like this (and, I hope, similar in future) would be a very cost-effective way to build awareness and interest in their code.
Re:Getting US to do the work (Score:1)
How about the Anti-Patterns ? (Score:2)
Projects are improved by a bit of push-me pull-you, too much self-congratulation makes you go blind.
Re:Good stuff / Patterns a new thing? (Score:2)
Alas, no one ever wants to read someone else's code because it's not up to their own high standards. Yes, my boy, we live in a world with different multiple high standards.
Same sentiments with double strength when it comes to
- documenting
- testing
- debugging
- maintaining
some else's code.Anyway, I suggest an escalation of the contest from a mere editorial review (kind of like looking for gemstones in the barn). Some of those reviewers are damn good coders in their own right! Give them extra credit for submissions of design patterns patches (judged according to how much they show elegence, less lines of code, more extensible, less memory, fewer bugs in future) that could usefully be employed where they are not at present!
Deciding on appropriate prizes is difficult. I haven't seen the Netscape cheerleaders on TV lately, so a group photo with the celebs is probably out of the question. However, I'd say some recognition and acknowledgement is due those who contribute to Mozilla the most. A little semi-official defacement of the Netscape portal to include a Top Tech News Story headline like "Studly Programmers Tire of Success" might be in order.
Re:Some prize (Score:1)
Re:Awful lot of code (Score:1)
OK...im not the design captain of the universe, but Im going to get nuts and say, that you can probably skim over lots and lots of code and get the general "gig" of whats going on. I don't think you need to pick aprat every line and to figure this out. It's not like they said, "There's a bug somewhere, FIND IT!. ready go.
Re:Some prize (Score:1)
But, realize that it's a $50 gift certificate to amazon (the $ amount wasn't mentioned in the post), and that the author of the book is sponsoring the contest. The author wants to create a buzz around the contest, so he gives away a book. Also remember that finding design patterns is as easy as searching the m10 source code [mozilla.org] for key words, such as singleton :)
Too much of a project for too small a prize (Score:1)
But remembering to the week ago when I compiled M10 (which took 3 hours), I don't think I would want to go through 1/1000 of that code, much less most of it.
Fist of the Firemonkey (Score:2)
"As you can see here, I'm using the FISTOFTHEFIREMONKEY pattern...this pattern integrates well with the previous FLAMINGLIZARDBREATH and OMIGODTHESEAMONKEYSAREHATCHING patterns."
/.'ers Make up your mind!!!!! (Score:5)
We gets endless complaints about stuff not being open source, not being free, companies that gets patents on software, proprietary (sp?) software, etc. (Crowd screams) "Give me the source, I need the source code".
Netscape sucks, it crashes, Mozilla will never be out, M$ has won the browser war, blah blah blah.. (Crowd Sreams)"I want a standards complant browser that is better than IE"
I could go on but I won't, i assume you get the point. This is an opportunity to get into the source that everbody must have according to the posts before. Ya it might be dirty work, coding is not glamourous it is work and sometime it is tedious. So instead of being a bunch of hypocryts (sp?) either SHUT UP about wanting stuff to be open source, or take the advantage of an opportunity to further a software project that can make a difference.
Come on people, decide which side of the fence you sit on. You want the source so you can help, OR you can't be bothered to actually help nor do you plan on it.
When you write a line of code for teh kernal you are doing someone work.. When you write a line of code for apache you are doing someones work.. When you help with Mozilla youare doing someones work..
-7021
Contests like this are supposed to be FUN! (Score:2)
Now Mozilla is saying, look through the code and see how many design patterns you can come up with. That sounds neat. Yeah, they benefit from it, so what? Of course, we get the same outrage.
Here's my take on both
If I can find some time, I'll do it.
-Seth
Design Patterns... (Score:1)
As for those who claim this is a "do our drudge work, get a book" type endeavour, I heartily disagree. There is no relationship between the authors of Design Patterns and mozilla. It's purely an exercise of application of their concepts, which if proven useful will help drive sales of the book. Publicity stunt? yes. But only if the book presents decent material.
Re:That's too bad (Score:1)
But why stop there? We should get patterns posters, and patterns trading card games.
"My adapter beats your handle-body".
hehe...
"Vlissides, I choose you!"
Re:LOOK KIDS!!! (Score:1)
Strange Co-incidence (Score:1)
last nite, and the guy across the isle from
me was reading this book...
Spooky
Re:That's too bad (Score:1)
thank you very much, mr. Fist of the Firemonkey, I'm forced to burst out in random fits of laughter for the remainder of the week...
Re:Getting US to do the work (Score:1)
Re:Programming contests (Score:1)
How I use patterns (Score:1)
Anyway. The only way I've actually used patterns is that when I realize I should use a Singleton or a Factory, I look it up to see how the masters do it, what the traps I need to avoid are and which tradeoffs I should be aware of. I found that pretty useful.
plural make up your singular? (Score:1)
Re:the irony here (Score:1)
Re:Right idea, wrong execution (Score:1)
I've come across the Programmer of the Month [tripod.com] contest. Every couple of months, the guy that runs it proposes some interesting problem that can be solved with a program and takes submissions to see who can write the program that best solves the problem.
The current problem involves a word search where the letters for the words need only be adjacent (i.e. not necessarily in a straight line) and each letter may only be used once. Previous contests have included: given a square piece of wood and an arbitrary linear cut, make up to ten other straight cuts such that all final pieces of wood have the same area; in a lottery with N balls where three of the numbers on a seven-number ticket must match three of the seven numbers drawn, generate the fewest tickets necessary to guarantee a win; and on a square grid, using a salesman that moves like a chess knight, visit all of a list of locations in a minimum number of moves. The challenges are very interesting. Some are easy enough that I enter them. Some are quite chellenging, but they're still fun to try to solve, even if I don't feel I have a glimmer of a chance of winning.
--Phil (Not that I've even ever come close to winning. I'm getting better, though.)
Some prize (Score:3)
Getting US to do the work (Score:1)
Good stuff / Patterns a new thing? (Score:2)
I think it's interesting to note though, that there are a lot of very complex open source (free or otherwise) out there that are getting a lot more devloper support. The Linux kernel obviously springs to mind. So does Apache. So why aren't people complaining about the complexity of these projects?
Anyway, on the competition page, they say patterns are a new thing. I though the idea had been around for ages.
-Mike
Trickery? (Score:1)
Besides...documenting software really *is* drudge work (IMHO), and at least they are trying to make it a little more interesting by offering prizes.
And getting people to examine the code this way may bring out some interesting ideas that will be useful to the developers.
Dana
Re:$50? (Score:1)
SL33ZE, MCSD
em: joedipshit@hotmail.com
That's too bad (Score:3)
I'd say you're right about the GoF pattern book not being much incentive for folks who would be the best contributors to their documentation project. I was hoping that if you found an interesting new pattern, the Mozilla folks would let you name it (at least as far as their documentation went). But the rules state that only patterns from the book are acceptable.
That's too bad. I'd bet some heavy coin that the exceptional kind of pattern hunters who won't be tempted by Design Patterns would be exceptionally tempted by the possibility of finding a new pattern and then naming it something like Fist of the Firemonkey.
Yes, too bad.
Cheers,
Tom
Re:Getting US to do the work (Score:1)
> some drudge work for them. Damn corporate trickery!
Whatever. I'm sure you have no idea what a design pattern is. If you ever figure it out, you will realize that this would do just about nothing for AOL, but could benefit anyone working on a large, platform independent project.
Right idea, wrong execution (Score:3)
However, I quite like the idea behind this. It sounds like a wonderfully geek contest! I don't recall seeing other contests which relied on technical capabilities (if you exclude cracking contests), and I'm wondering if it's possible to design a contest which is not someone else's work, and relies on ingenuosity and technical skill.
Say, perhaps, useless things like programming a specific program under a certain amount of memory, or somesuch...
"There is no surer way to ruin a good discussion than to contaminate it with the facts."
Re:Some prize (Score:1)
Re:Good stuff / Patterns a new thing? (Score:1)
I never heard of them before, so they're definitely new.
Awful lot of code (Score:2)
*sticks tongue in cheek*
Just be sure to run it all thru a code beautifier first.
Then: cat source and watch the pretty patterns scroll by...
What? Whad'ya mean design patterns? It's open source fer chrissakes! You think it's designed ???
$50? (Score:1)
Someone might tell these guys what a book costs these days, even at Amazon prices.
SL33ZE, MCSD
em: joedipshit@hotmail.com
the irony here (Score:2)
Alexander suggests that the designs you produce should be whole and harmonious and appropriate, and they should fit in their environment. So it seems ironic to me that advocates of such a wholistic ideal should tempt people with a reward that people find so irritating. This indicates that something is wrong with the design of the contest.
Re:Getting US to do the work (Score:1)
Patterns and Anti-Patterns ? (Score:2)
Programming contests (Score:1)
BTW, does anyone know the final results of the ICFP contest? I had an entry that was in the running for the judges prize.
later,
mike
Some clarifications for the reading impaired (Score:1)
2) the prize may be slightly redundant, but you probably don't have an autographed version of the book.
3)The winner and runner-up also gets a gift certificate (I doubt there's any redundancy there).
4) They are working on securing other prizes.
5)You don't have to participate.
Re:Programming contests (Score:3)
Re:Getting US to do the work (Score:2)
Re:Right idea, wrong execution (Score:2)
I normally would agree with you on doing somebody else's work for cheap, but considering Mozilla is looking like our only shot at a !(Microsoft) web browser version 5+ I'm willing to do something like that just for the t-shirt. Worst case, I improve my understanding of patterns and improve a product that I can use directly. Best case, I win a book that I can loan out instead of MY copy. I mean, UML and Patterns books are worse that ACDC and Black Sabbath albums, they never come back.
Here's [slashdot.org] an example of your programming contest idea. Sounds like it was alot of fun. Anyway the alternative would be to post a request and proposal on co-source [cosource.com] to do the work and see what kind of cash you could raise.
Only Patterns from the GOF book (Score:2)
Is it the right thing to to do base the contest on how many *GOF* patterns can be found?
Right idea, wrong execution... NOT (Score:3)
So? There's a name for it, it's called "contributing".
Second, the fact that if you can win this contest, well, you don't need the damn book anyway.
Are you sure? I don't know about you, but no matter how good I get at something, there's always someone better, and someone who can tell me something I don't know. Or suppose I'm the one person in the world to whom this doesn't apply - I can always give the book to my kid brother, or keep it as a trophy.
The bottom line is, I want to be able to build and rebuild Mozilla, a little piece at a time, on my laptop, and I don't really care what process is used to accomplish that. The logical next step, after finding the patterns, is to implement them in a way that reduces the size of the source and the binary by some large factore. Keep going guys, this sounds terrific.
Bass-ackward (Score:2)
Aren't you suppose to have the patterns in mind before you write the code? Going back through already "completed" source code and saying "Oh, look I think that's using a design pattern" seems a tad silly to me.
It's kinda like writing the requirements after the system is done (this often happens to be the way things end up for me, but, hey I'm not proud of it).