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China Enters Space 344

Posted by Roblimo from the really-long-march dept.
Almost everybody sent it: "China successfully launches and retrieves its first unmanned spacecraft, moving it a step closer to becoming the third nation to send astronauts into space..." BBC story - SpaceViews story - official press release from China Daily.
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China Enters Space More

China Enters Space

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  • I know the origin of pokemons. My point stands.

    Exactly my point. Don't complaint about lack of human rights and labor laws, if you can't live without it. I'm sure alot of ppl on /. makes enough money to boycott Chinese produce, MANY PEOPLE CAN'T. So, taking every thing in to consideration, there isn't much that can be done.
  • >if anyone knows their history
    >you should realize that war and the chinese go
    >together like yin and yang

    Are you daft? How fucking stupid are you? China has been *repeatedly* and *successfully* invaded since Genghis Khan. The Mongols (not one, not two, but *three* generations of the Khan family), the British (Hong Kong and the Opium Wars), and the Japanese (pre-WWII) have all successfully occupied Chinese soil. What, you think that "Wall of China" thingy is a "militarily offsensive" structure? Feel free to pull your head out of your asshole any time now.

    The only reason China is still a country today is that its greatest strength is converting the invading force to their culture. Marco Polo said of Kubali Khan is was impossible to believe he was Mongol. How many British customs have been created or reinforced by occupying China (tea?)? How many Japanese customs?

    China has only recently become externally aggressive (Korea, Taiwan), and compared to how China itself was treated and subjegated (sp?), very kind to external countries. Before Communism, China's foreign policy was "You leave us alone, and we with leave you alone". More or less, this still holds true today.

    To all those "China stealing rocket technology from us" whiners, China *invented* the field of rocketry, and Europeans *stole* that idea from the Chinese. I guess that the Chinese have just been paid back for that. As well, if open source standards and free information (you know, those ideals that you so mindlessly and hypocritically agree with, defend, and quote as gospel) would have been universally applied, they could have just have downloaded the plans from the web.

    Of course, the human rights issues internally are pretty ugly, but hey, in America, you do or have done similar (but not on the same scale) things (McCarthyism, Salem witch hunts, fag-bashing, slavery, race riots, geek oppression, Japanese concentration camps in WWII), so climb off those high horses. As well, USA has historically been VERY aggressive (including invading MY home country, Canada. Does the term "manifest destiny" mean anything to you?).

    Just some flame bait to piss off those knee jerkers who can't think before they post.
  • If 125 top level scientist can't help US then what a couple of spies can do for Chinese rocket program!

    I have no doubt that the Chinese space program is being fueled by Russian technology to a far greater extent than US technology and I never said otherwise. Pictures of the capsule resemble Soyuz, the bundled configuration of boosters is a classical Russian design (and may be why they never went to the moon), and the landing site are all characteristics of Russian technology.

    It will be interesting to see how long it takes them to overcome the booster problem for their moon shot.



  • Who's pointing the gun? As I mentioned, the US hasn't signed the treaty yet, right? WHO has the biggest GUN?

    One has to look at the overall situation. Nothing is perfect. But to keep the whole better, some must make sacrifices. The difference is the model under which these sacrifices take place. In the military, insubordination is treated as treason(or some thing else that is just as serious) and the perpetrator can be shot. And yet almost every normal country has a military that they are very proud of. Its a different model of doing things. Military ensures the stability of a country against malicious invaders. Because millitaries are accepted by every one in the world, they prosper.

    Still, China is does not have such a ridged system, its a different model--one that not yet accepted by the world. As all complaints about China goes--Its bad here, its bad there... Its bad because they are compensating for some problems-- such as a quarter of the world's population. Try to govern that many people all cramed in very little space using the American model. It will fail miserably.

    All this said, I must take a deep bow to those who did make such great sacrifices in order to change a flawed system. They are the truly respectable ones. acknowledge the changes that they have made, and help China to keep these changes. Don't destroy their legacies by ignoring the things that they paid so much for.

  • Re:Don't be afraid (Score:3)

    by ToastyKen ( 10169 ) on Sunday November 21, 1999 @11:00AM (#1515387) Homepage Journal
    We all know China's previous record.

    *Ahem*.. Excuse me, but which country has actually droopped nukes on people? Which country is constantly bombing other sovereign nations with neither declaring war nor consulting the U.N.? China threatens Taiwan with weapons, but has it actually attacked them?

    Before you get scared that China is going to attack other countries, look at the countries that are ALREADY attacking other countries!

  • When we "still" let poor people in, excuse me? (Score:3)

    by FallLine ( 12211 ) on Sunday November 21, 1999 @07:45AM (#1515391)
    Not true. US immigration policies haven't stopped admitting poor people, in fact, compared to most other developed nations we're one of the worse (or best, depending on your perspective) in that regard. If anything, the US needs to tighten them up more. Other countries such as Canada atleast have a system in place where immigrants tend to be educated and mobile (or atleast have a good track record of success). Furthermore, when it comes to engineers and what not, we restrict them in the name of protectionism--very stupid. Damn few of our immigrants have much in the way of skills, it's a shame.
  • I don't think the fact that they have little experience will have much effect. If they can launch succesfully, then they can start doing just about anything. If they could get the funds together, then China would be even more inclined to start colonies on, say, the moon, what with their overpopulation. Plus, if they get more friendly with Russia, mabey russia will put some launch stations in China, and do a joint project, making Rusia's easier and cheaper, due to the launch lattitude.
  • Great comment! Moderate this one up! Good links, BTW!

    When the Americans' balls are to the war, they *always* turn to Canada for help (Avro, D-Day, and any American-sponsered United Nations motion; because, guess what, internationally, Americans are despised). However, us Canadians always get paid back in spades (can you say "Auto-Pact" and "unlimited defense treaties"? Knew you could!).
  • You do realize they do pose a threat to our existance right?

    Good grief! Please actually go take a trip to China and look around. You'll see Coke stands next to Adidas stores (along with domestic merchandise). Talk to the people who live there. They're making a living, investing in stocks, etc. Same kinds of things that you do. Go to a restaurant, and when a beeper goes off, half the people in the area look down at their belts..

    Life in China is hardly 1984-ish at all.

    countries that are bent with killing the 'evil capitalists'.

    Capitalism is the rule in China these days. It's far more capitalist than even the US in many ways. In a typical middle-class family, everyone from grandparents to kids know more about stocks than most people in this country do. Please look up some first-hand info.

    Go talk to some people who actually come from China. China does not "pose a threat to our existence". I can't believe how effective the propagandizing media has been in affecting intelligent Slashdotters.
  • Oh no! The US won't be the only one to have these technologies! What is the world coming to?!?

    I don't see it as being much more dangerous, and nor do I see it being the responsibility of leaders and strategists.

  • The NYT has an interesting article on Russian wealth and living conditions today. Check out:

    Hot Russian Brides Available [nytimes.com]

    I'm sure that these people can tell you stories about the effective uses of resources.

  • You know, there used to be a thing called the "scientific community" where people are supposed to SHARE knowledge rather than horde it. :P
  • LOL.

    At one point you state America as having "been around for how long, 200 some years" and yet not three lines prior you mention Salem, 400 years ago.

    Not favourable terms? Wow. I coulda sworn "most favoured nation" status could have meant something else...

  • Uh, wasn't the American rocket program pretty much completely taken from the German program, with German scientists or via espionage?

    No doubt Chnese rocketry was influenced by the Amricans, the Russians, the Germans, and perhaps, gasp, the Chinese, who invented rocketry centuries ago... :)

    (Great, I'm fanning the flames... Sorry guys.)

  • Don't be afraid (Score:4)

    by gargle ( 97883 ) on Sunday November 21, 1999 @08:01AM (#1515406) Homepage
    The amount of xenophobia here amazes me. It seems that everytime we have an article on any advance in China, we have Slasdotters making chittering little noises that amount to "Oh no, are they going to kill us now?"

    China has replaced the Soviet Union as the big bad wolf in American eyes, and when supposedly rational Slashdotters take part in the fear mongering, it's easy to see how movements like McCarthyism arose in America.

  • Start another space race? (Score:3)

    by Eman ( 22576 ) on Sunday November 21, 1999 @03:13AM (#1515408)

    I wonder if China started planning trips to Mars would the US's space program try to speed things up on it's own planning? Maybe end up starting another space race type thing?

    Just a thought.

  • ..or is it ?

    When America and Russia were competing to get into space in the 50s and 60s it took a huge amount of resources and computers weren't around to help with the math.

    I'm hardly surprised by the fact that China has put a capsule into space, after all a number of private consortiums are competing to launch private space rockets. There's no denying a lot of them are doing it for fun, but there are a few serious contenders, and a lot of them are doing the work for very little money. Most of the major problems which consumed resources have already been solved and all it takes to find a solution is a quick web browse. I'm very surpised we don't have at least 15 nations with manned space capability by now.

    Anyway, if anyone knows any different, please reply.

  • As opposed to all the Anti-China crap in these comments, perhaps?
  • So the question now is whether or not other countries are going to go into space now, or if they will sit and watch China... and will countries such as the US to put more weight into the space program. Personally I think unless China does something that no one has done before, there won't be a great reaction from the other countries in terms of actually launching more things into space than is already planned, since we are long past unmanned flights.
  • You've certainly got a point there.
  • ...consult the UN? After all they are *the* most recalcitrant in paying their fees. In fact Congress refuses to let America pay, somehow thinking the UN owes *it* a debt of gratitude.
  • And dont forget gunpowder, guess what the Chinese used it for? Firecrackers. The europeans came up with the idea of using it to fire a projectile.

    Actually, you're quite wrong. The chinese invented rocketry for the purpose of sieging castles. They were firing explosive rockets over city walls long before Europeans even had cannons.

    And as you may know, it took European inventiveness to put a practical use to paper, i.e. the printing press.

    Actually, iirc, movable type printing was invented long before Gutenberg in the East as well. It's just that with Gutenberg, it really took off.


    But you're right (sort of) when you allude to the fact that the Chinese's biggest fault was in being too self-congratulatory and unaccepting of outsiders because they were "just barbarians". The ancient Greeks had a similar attitude and they likewise fell.

    But you know what? After all the crap China went through from European abuse in the 19th and early 20th Century, it learned its lesson. China now is more eager to assimilate other cultures than almost any other place.
    And you know who's becoming really arrogant and unaccepting of others (always thinking they're the best)? The US.

    If history taught us anything, that's going to be a problem for the US...
  • ... of course, but frankly, I'm pleased that there is at least *one* challenger to US hegemony on the planet.

    One amusing fact is that there is a myth of communist ineffectiveness (I refer to communism as a historical fact, not as an ideal model). In the two nominally communist superpowers, we have countries which went from being relatively backwards little stumble-bums of history, to world-class superpowers, in the space of a few decades. The Soviet Union managed to develop a space program only a decade after having been completely mauled by the second world war, in addition to improving the standard of living of its populace to a very high extent (vis a vis the pre-communist standard of living.)

    A real tragedy of communism is that it has never been attempted in a country with a genuine democratic tradition. I attribute China's autocratic nature more to China's historical political culture than to communism per se.

    Perhaps the eurosocialist model is just that fusion of socialism and democracy.

  • O.k., I agree that the Chinese have been quite hostile of late, but I say we be optomistic. Just because a country has a communist government does not automatically mean they should be america's arch rival. Simply because we have different beliefs in reference to politics doesn't mean that they are not human and therefore similar goals as the rest of us in the free world. Provided their recent actions are genuinely in the name of exploration and the furthering of the human race and not with the intent of taking over the world I say more power to them. The only way we as a people will every truly become the explorers of the universe and galaxy that we someday hope to be ("go where no man has gone before") is if we all band together as the human race and put our resources, knowledge, and know how together and find solutions together. While competing has helped us to reach goals in the past I, for one, believe that the ultimate goal of space exploration will never truly be realized until we all put our petty differences asside and work for a common, human, good. Look what open source has done for the world of software... it has created a true revolution. Until our governments can mature a little and have a simmilar stance of technology w/ regards to advancing the human race and obtaining its goals we will all continue spinning our own wheels blaming and accusing each other while obtaining relatively small victories in the grand scheme of things.
  • Crispy and broken.

    Without any glorious pictures to the contrary, I imagine something went wrong.

  • Not to diminish what they've done, but the Party statements quoted in the BBC article are just hilarious: this was done using technology developed by Chinese scientists? Well, maybe. But I'm guessing some of that "development" occurred in the U.S., by U.S. scientists, was purloined, and sent back, either as the result of espionage, or as the result of (IMHO) illegal deals struck with U.S. aerospace companies while Big Brother Bill looked the other way (he was busy preventing any crypto exports).
  • It is interesting to see how the political spectrum really comes full circle in the most extremes. The extreme Left believes that there should be no government because the would make a distant class (those in the government and those not) while the extreme Right blevs in power being transferred from the fedarel government to state to county (using a US model of internal political division) and evently to the indviul. so in the end both extreme what the very same thing for very deterrent reasons. Well something to think about anyway
  • Disclaimer: I apologize beforehand for the cynicism you are about to read. My opinions are based on and exceeded solely by my ignorance of the situation.

    Okay, maybe it's just me, but how is it news if it's decades behind? I don't see it.

    the spacecraft appeared to resemble the Apollo series of capsules launched by NASA in the US in the late 1960s.

    Gee, wonder why. Can anyone say, "technology exchange"? I mean really, doesn't it seem just a tad fishy to anyone other than myself that 10 years after we send up Apollo, after having advanced beyond that, that the Chinese re-invent the damn thing just after our texchange?

    How is this news?

    *sarcasm on*
    In recent news today, the Chinese have a new TV show, called Sassame Street, featuring characters "slightly resembling" those of our own Sesame Street. The Chinese on the other hand dispute those claims, stating that "Bag Bird + Cookie Demon" were "designed and manufactured by Chinese scientists".
    *end sarcasm*
    *end comment*

  • As far as I know China was not party to the US and russian treaty against putting weapons in space. As such it is very possible that we might see nuclear weapons or something in space b/c of this.

    This may lead us to another cold war type of scenario. Far from being bad (as long as we don't nuke each other) the pressure to develop to innovate and even to explore space will be great thus blasting the world out of its sort of consumer compacancy (i.e. does going to space/basic research mean more money/bigger TV for me. No? then don't fund it).

  • Re:... (Score:1)

    by jyang ( 86770 )
    Interesting parody. *wink*

    This old joke:

    At the height of Chinese-Taiwan tension in 60's, local militia men in the province of Fujian, directly at the shore of Taiwan strait, invent a way to detect Taiwanese infiltrators. The militia would go to a local bus station, got the passengers lined up, and order everyone do "Radio Aerobic Workout", a exercise routine every school childern in Comm. China knows. The one can't follow the music to do the routine were rounded up and send to interrogations.

  • China is in UN security Council not for the nuclear weapon, it's because it inherited the seat occupied by Republic of China (official name for the goverment in Taiwan).

    ROC was one of the five Allied countries of WWII. (US, Brits, France, Russia, China). After ROC lost china over communists in 1949, they still hold on their UN seat until 70's, when they were forced to resign (saving the face of being vetoed out). Of course US was on the side of Taiwan.

    And China doesn't have enough Nuke to kill off the man kind. I think Ukrine has more Nuke than China has. (pure speculation)
  • Not sure that whether it'll be moderated as off-topic since the discussion seems to be more concerned about China-bashing and China-bashing-bashing...

    The translation "God ship" - more appropriately should be as "gods' ship" - misses a subtlty of the name. "Shenzhou" has the same pronounciation as "gods' land", which in Chinese traditionally refer to the land of China. A pretty smart name from Jiang Zemin - the General secretory of CCP (read China :).

    P.S. "gods" probably should be small capital because it's not the God as in christian religion.
  • While a lot of you (we?) techies might think it's an interestinig development, has lots of promise for global development of space technology, new competition, yada yada... don't you think there are better things for a government of 1.2 billion people, many starving and living in poverty, to spend on than A MERE SPACE PROGRAM? Does China still limit the number of children a family is allowed to have?

    For God's sake, misplaced priorities are SERIOUSLY hurting a LOT of people. A little humanitarian intervention would be nice to see, regardless of all the politics. (This being said from Canada, where I know you can criticize, but partly we're on the right track).
  • I'm a Contonese. I want to hear somebody explainto me exactly what the big deal of reusing the organs of executed criminal. Now I'm not talking about 1)organ of other prisoner 2) seller for money 3) selling to foreign country etc.

    Nor do I spend anytime reading the detail of their/our actual actions. I just want to know the moral justification behide it.


    CY
  • I'm afraid you're quite mistaken about Chinese replacing French as the second most spoken language in Canada. Funny, I've heard this rumour a few times now and yet it's not even close to reflecting reality. Check out this link from the last census: CDN CENSUS DATA [statcan.ca]

    You'll see that French-speakers still make up just shy of 25% of the population. Chinese-speakers are about 2.5%, a tenth of the number of French-speakers.

    The big news is the incredible growth in that percentage amount. Twenty years ago the Chinese percentage was 0.4%. That's an incredible growth rate. Chinese is the first language to knock the big two "allophone" languages down a notch. Chinese has supplanted Italian and German in Canada, but by no means French.

    p.s. I thought the rest of your post was pretty cool
  • Curiously, one of the leaders of the Chinese rocketry and space program is Tsien Hsue-shen; one of the founders of JPL. He was regarded as a peer of the legendeary Von Karman, and his probable successor at CalTech.

    Unfortunately, the FBI revoked his security clearance, suspecting that he was a Communist, in 1949. Later, during a trip back to see his ailing father in Shanghai, his bags were searched, and his papers were held to be secrets.

    In the end, he was 'exchanged' for US Korean war POWs. He went on to develop Chinese ICBMs, weather satellites, and the Silkworm missle.

    This is oddly reminiscent of the Germans getting a lot of their ideas for rockets during the WWII from Goddard's patents (which were ignored by the US).

    thad

  • Just wondering... would it be easier to destroy a sattelite from ground or space?

    If it is easier from space... that has some interesting implications for the military establishment...
  • Amazing.

    Take a piece of what should be good news (a new partner in space exploration), throw a flag in the mix, and watch the little shaved apes go at each other like it's 1 000 000 BC. Supposedly intelligent, enlightened people become patriotic berserkers when several nations whose governments told the populace to hate the other enter the arena.

    On the one hand, the gerontocracy in control of China has a pathetic human rights record. On the other hand, it's not like the populace has much choice for the time being. Witness Tiananmen Square - nice attempt fellas, too bad the army had the guns.

    I think we should welcome a new nation to the ultimate frontier. Make a few magnanimous gestures, speak a few kind words, they may even have something to contribute to the "international" space station.

    Old fears die hard, eh? Mao is dead, and the times are a-changin'. Slowly, but a-changin'.

    And as this entire thread has shown, attitudes change even slower.

    Or maybe I'm just naive, and put too much faith in this species to get past itself.
  • Oh, I agree that there are always ways to improve the educational system in every country. The US has some real problems with schools in economically disadvantaged areas.

    However I think that the educational system in the US is much better than the impression you might get by reading the newpaper.

    It is true that if you examine the average score on a standardized test given in the US, and compare it to that achieved by students in, say France you get a result that is not impressive. What people DON'T see reported by the press is what the distribution of scores is, or what the reuslts of tests of things other than regurgitated facts.

    In the US the distribution is broad - students who have special ability are generally given more opportunity in the US. The result is that the US test scores for the upper percentiles are in fact as good as if not better than any in the world.

    Another aspect rarely reported is that tests that measure things OTHER than the retention of factual knowledge (say problem solving ability or creative writing skills) paint a very different picture. These sorts of tests show an American education as being on average as good as if not better than any in the world.

    Another factor with education in the US that is unusual compared to other nations is the number of people who go on to post secondary education. We have a very strong system of trade schools, community colleges and so on. The result is that over 50% of Americans receive some sort of post secondary degree, 80% some form of post high school education. These are by far the best numbers in the world. Because of this we don't have the same problem that the British and French do with some exam determining your ultimate role in life.

    One of the mysteries that the newspapers don't answer when writing about the educational system in the US is how American workers have the highest productivity in the world if their education is so crummy.

    And by the way, the stories of Einstein being a poor student are myth. He was no more a poor student than George Washington was an arborist. Einstein actually earned high marks in both primary and secondary school.

    The best biography on Einstein I have seen is "Subtle is The Lord" by Abraham Pais. It's a good read, especially if you have some math and physics in your background. And it dispels some myths, too.

    But because the US has the budget publicly and privately, of course many of the top-line people from elsewhere (including Canada) will move to the US to follow the opportunity.

    I find it amazing that people just refuse to grant the American institutions that attract highly talented people from all over the world the credit they deserve.

    The Statue of Liberty is there for a historical reason. The institutions that led to it's construction are still operating. Highly talented individuals who come to the US to pursue their work are given better opportunities than anywhere else. This includes the opportunity to win Nobel Prizes.

    This is not a flaw in the US system.

    I sure hope someone doesn't point to Linus and Tove and suggest they've somehow "sold out" their Finnish roots.

    I hope not too. But it is no accident that Linus is living and working in the US. I recently read that he is also working on a US citizenship.

  • >somehow thinking the UN owes *it* a debt of >gratitude.

    Well, we HAVE paid them a hell of lot of cash over the years. As an American, I *DO* think the UN owes me a debt of gratitude for my tax dollars. But regardless, I sure as hell don't owe them another dime.
  • I think it's odd that people see the use of existing knowledge as this evil espionage thing.

    Now that's a funny statement. Trying to bring in the programmer connection is kinda ridiculous, though.

    How do you get those libraries? People who create them post them in public places. Now, suppose you wanted a library that wasn't publicly posted. You have to go about obtaining it in some other way, right? Warez. Stealing. Espionage.

    That's the point. Re-inventing the wheel is an excessively trivial analogy for this case.
  • As a Chinese, I always have the impression that Japan has better space technology. Guess they don't push too hard on this area.

    The thing is, China *has* to have advance military technology. Japan doesn't (or can't?) have to. WWII is just 50 years away. And Chinese has used to use centary instead of decade/next presidentcy as a unit to see the future. That's one of the reason China develop advance military protecting/revence techlogoly for Japan's potential unexpected move. (mind you China's navy suck ass, it's not really threadening the southeastern asia.)

    You see in Chinese thinking, they/we still can't comprehent the reason of Japan overly-ambitious invasion decades ago. That's why Chinese take extra step in protecting itself from Japan. (personally, I don't care Taiwanese' idea one way or the other, so don't bother to argue this with me.)

    The space program is always byproduct of mid/long range missile research and development. It doesn't indicate that China's tech in other area are as good as this one. We still can't produce decent DVD player, car or football player. (Yeah, the real football )
  • Well, let's be realistic. China has zero experience in space-missions. You think that they'd really have any competitive ability in a space-race with us? Without first trying missions to a closer body like, say, the Moon? Not likely.

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • #1: Under command economies the ruling dictatorship can shove a huge portion of available resources into whatever projects they deem important. So yes, the Soviet Union was able to get into space before the U.S. The problem is that this requires bleeding the rest of the economy dry (note the 20+ million people murdered/starved by Stalin in order to build Soviet industry; I suspect they'd object to your assertion of an "improved standard of living" if they could), and the growth of the rest of the economy is subpar, if existent at all. Thus Reagan could spend 6% of U.S. GDP on the military (with the majority of that going to soldiers salaries) and drive the Soviet Union spending 20% of their GDP on their military (with poorly paid conscripts) into the ground.

    #2, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his means" requires dictatorship, because men of ability will always resist enslavement. Thus why the best and brightest around the world immigrate to the U.S. (I work with a bunch of 'em, Brits, Indians, Chinese, you name it), because we have the least repressive government of all the major countries. Which says more about the rest of the world than us. The federal government confiscates 22% of GDP, state/local governments another 11%, and that's despite military spending being gutted to 3% of GDP. And our incompetent draft-dodger Commander-in-Chief is busy pissing off the rest of the world by sending our military tromping off to more expeditions than Reagan and Bush combined!

  • After reading through this seemingly endless political bickering, some of which displays a level of ignorance and utter idiocy that is truly astonishing considering the usually intelligent readership of Slashdot, I have only one thing left to say about the Chinese rocket launch.

    To all those who made it happen, congratulations on a job well done.

    ---
    Peace,
    vilvoy
  • Is that not the responsibility of a government? To look after the best interests of its own people?

    Granted, it would be nice if the US were more of a team player and helped everybody else out for the sake of sheer niceness, but people and the sociopolitical/economic entities they associate with are, by their very nature, self-serving.

    That's what such entities are created for; take care of their own. It's all fine and dandy, provided that a person/sociopolitical/economic entity does so without infringing upon another's ability to do the same.

    In Iraq, US action was necessary to protect its interests. The methods did interfere with how Iraq was going about serving its best interests, but that issue is null because Iraq's own actions interfered with the rights of another nation.

    Most Americans feel no connection to East Timor, so it's not considered an important issue in addition to there being little to no sociopolitical or economic benefit to be gained. Selfish, yes. Wrong, perhaps. Illegal, no.

    Non-Americans like to complain about this as if their country wouldn't dare to act in such a manner, perhaps because of their inherent "niceness." I guarantee that if any other nation were in the position of the US today, that nation would behave in exactly the same way. That's the dark side of human nature. It sucks.

    There is a light at the end of that tunnel, but most people here seem to regard it as B.S., so I'll leave it there. ;)

    I don't seem to recall the US tagging itself as a team player, anyhow. The speaches I recall from the Gulf War days by President Bush involved phrases to the effect of "protect the interests of the American people. Oh, and help those nice people in Kuwait get rid of their invaders, too, yeah, that's it." The propaganda circulated through the media, though, emphasized helping Kuwait kick out a Hitler wannabe. Sneaky, sneaky.
  • Arise, ye who refuse to be slaves!
    With our flesh and blood, let us build our new Great Wall!
    The GNU programmers faces its greatest danger.
    From each one the urgent call for action comes forth.
    Arise! Arise! Arise!
    Millions with but one heart,
    Braving the enemy's fire.
    March on!
    Braving the BillG's F-U-D.
    March on! March on! On!

  • Thanks for playing, anyway!
    :
  • Last fall one of our local Democrat Congresscritters, either Anna Eshoo or Zoe Lofgren , commented that the Republicans has discovered that there were still *Commies* in *China*, and they'd be trying to make a big deal about it once they were done embarassing themselves with Monicagate. ["Oh, boy - *Commies* outside of Berkeley and Hahvahd! We haven't known what to do since the Evil Empire [fourmilab.ch] fell!"] Always helps to have an occasional Yellow Commie Spy around when you don't have an Arab Terrorist Mastermind handy, and it's so convenient to have Foreigners giving money to AlGore in violation of the campaign finance laws the Demos are trying to embarass you into passing. (Personally, I think the First Amendment is a good campaign finance law, but we're talking about Republicans who don't like level playing fields any more than Democrats do.)

    So BE AFRAID! BE VERY AFRAID!
    • Commies under the bed!
    • Terrorism and Extremism Must Be Stomped Out!
    • Latino NarcoCrytographers who didn't go to the School Of The Americas!
    • and some spare UnAmerican foreigners (the Republicans don't have Pat Buchanan in their primaries, but may have to deal with him if he somehow tricks the Reform Party into nominating him.)
  • I agree that war is not about to be caused by China, it makes no economical sense. It is United States that I would be worried about. For one thing, it still didn't sign that treaty about Nuclear weapons, right? What is that all about?

    In Bejing, the Capital of China, there are two very white strips of writing on the red wall, right by chairman Mao's picture(They are big, you can see it all the way across from the tian an men square). One side talks about the longevity of communism and chinese people. The other side hails the longevity of WORLD PEACE! Thats right, It is some thing that was carved in to China as a country when it was formed!

    I suggest that every one find a translator and go and take a look at it. where do you see, any where in the United States, or in any country, that opening proclaims that there should be WORLD PEACE in a place that represents national pride?

    But technological advancement does not impede world peace, it extends it! So I think millitary considerations should not be such a high priority. In this world, its all about who does the right thing, not who has the biggest gun.

    Try this if you don't think so. Start boycotting Chinese produce today to protest ________(what ever, human rights issues, epsionage, what ever you can think of.) See how happy you will be a week from today.

    Or try this, make your kid stop watching pokemon for a week. See how happy you will be.

    Its nolonger about guns and radars, and missiles. In the new world order, the information age, no one oughta be willing to damage human life to get what he wants. the war is fought on a very different plane.

    enjoy.
  • >Actually, you are wrong. The USA *did* have rocket technology during WWII; the reason they "acquistioned" German rocket scientists was to keep them from falling into Soviet hands.


    Well technically the US had Robert Goddard, and the Germans had a missle capable of hitting London from Germany (the V2). A lot of countries had the beginnings of rocket technology during WWII but the Germans were the best at it, thus the scramble for German scientists after the war. I'm sure keeping them out of Soviet hands had something to do with it, but so did the US desire for the technology.

    IIRC most of the US space program was based on WWII German work, and on that carried out by German scientists "recruited" into NASA at the end of the war.

    bil
  • Global strike capability is new to china. They have never had the long range bombers or submarines that the US and Russia rely on as our secong strike force. China is making some slow gains in the submarine field, but they can't rely on them for SLBM's quite yet. The biggest gains in all this is the diplomatic power that ICBM's give them. They're in a new league now. A league that previously had two teams, Us and Russia.
  • Cuba was a politically repressive kleptocracy before the Communists kicked the pro-American Mafiosi out of power. This doesn't mean that Castro was much better. A Cuban-born friend of mine remembers growing up under the political repression of Batista - people were afraid to say things in their own houses because they'd get hauled away and killed at night. After the revolution, it was better for a few months, but became repressive and unsafe soon after, and his (anti-Batista) parents sent him to the US at age 14 so he wouldn't be drafted and sent to fight in Africa or Bolivia. Didn't like it here, and he's now a Costa Rican.
  • >* The Soviet Union's status as a nuclear superpower was largely due to espionage. Fuchs, Rosenberg, and other sympathizers funneled information including plans for atomic devices to the NKVD; without this information, they would have been hard pressed to come close to the US.

    Ahh one of the enduring myths of the cold war, if those dammed ruskies hadn't stolen our technology they would all still be living in caves...

    Building nuclear weapons is not actually that hard, the really hard bit is working out that it is possible in the first place. Once the US had demonstrated that atomic weapons work (ie hiroshima) then it was only a matter of time before Soviet scientists managed to overcome the technical difficulties involved in the construction of one. Seeing as this was one of Stalins pet projects, and it had huge prestige and national security implications the resources put into it were huge and the bombs were built. America does not have a monopoly on talented scientists, nor does western style democracy lead naturally to technial superioity. Sorry to burst your bubble.

    >* Much of the initial rocketry research was done by Nazi scientists working on the V series weapons; if memory serves, a few ended up in the States as researchers instead of war prisoners. That's about as far from the Communist ideal as you can get.

    But the US isn't communist so why would they try to live up to the communist ideal? I dont understand your point.

    bil

  • I haven't seen much evidence supporting the fact that the U.S. has been to the moon.
  • They are the not-we! We must band together to stop ourselves getting screwed by a group that has the interests of the whole world in mind. Only our interests are important!

  • I think it's odd that people see the use of existing knowledge as this evil espionage thing.

    I mean, hello? If something exists elsewhere, why re-invent the wheel? There are lots of programmers here, right? Don't you try finding libraries for things that have already been done instead of re-implementing everything yourself?
    You COULD implement everything yourself, but that'd take a lot more time, and is just plain silly.

    Re-inventing the wheel is generally considered a STUPID thing to do. Yet, if people don't do it in these cases, they're being inferior and incapable of coming up with something themselves. I see it as just common sense.
  • Interesting footnote: At the beginning of WWII, Goddard himself approached the Army with the suggestion to build long range rocket based weaponry. The U.S. Army is reputed to have told him that the idea was ludicrous, and that missile weapons were a pipe dream.

    Keep in mind that there were no nukes at the time. A conventional bomb on that time's rockets wasn't very effective. The nazi rocket-weapons didn't help them much. Shorter range than a bomber plane, and barely enough accuracy to hit entire cities. A bridge, airport or factory was too small targets to aim for. The kill ratio was something like 2 people per V-weapon fired.

    Nukes made long-distance rockets useful, due to the large affected area. Better navigational systems made the conventional long-distance rockets useful too. But try getting that kind of precision from a mechanically guided rocket of the forties...

  • OK, I'm off topic - deal with it.

    Did anyone else follow the link to china daily [chinadaily.com.cn]?

    This [chinadaily.com.cn] is a highlight?
  • The first space station? Skylab.

    Let's hear the rest of the list.

  • LOL. No. The UN owes the countries - like mine - that pay their UN fees - *every year*, *on time*, and *in full* - a debt of gratitude.

    That's like saying the local cornershop owes it to you to provide free sauce on the hotdog you refuse to pay for.

  • "China successfully launches and retrieves its first unmanned spacecraft, moving it a step closer to becoming the third nation to send astronauts into space..."

    i'm almost positive a french guy flew on a russian craft once. unless they mean "send them there themselves," but that's not what that sentence is saying.

  • >...and space shuttles taking off from Sweden. Last time I looked there were none.

    You're looking in the wrong place, the European Space Agency [esrin.esa.it]lauch Ariane from French Guiana (sp?) on the North coast of South America.

    Just a thought but is the ESA the only space programme to involve more then one coutry?

    Bil
  • One of the reasons that no real proper communist revolutions haven't taken place is that in place of Communism (as defined in the Manifesto), a Totalitarian system emerged. Just look at Stalin. He ran the country as a dictator, and the means of production were state controlled. That is NOT Marxism.

    Also, every third world nation that ever revolted toward communism would have US sponsored counter-revolutions a few weeks later.

    Would communism work in the real world? I have no idea. As far as I'm concerned, Capitalism doesn't work either. Freedom is totally relative in this world, especially these days where information is more abundant them it's ever been.
  • Here I try to second guess the next argument - about what the US does for the UN miltaristically, always donating its troops, etc.

    Not so. The US consistently only volunteers to help where things are in its best interest. And not only in the military sense. Iraq? Oil. Taiwan? Computers (witness the infamous "Earthquake in Taiwan? Oh no! RAM prices will go up!" comments).

    East Timor. Doesn't have a lot to offer the US, so they stay way the hell away. The US isn't a team player, it leans heavily towards self-interest.

  • And you think everybody in North America has so much money that it can afford a space program? By your logic no one would ever go into space because the money could be better used building another hospital, or raising welfare payments, or expanding a university or a million and one other things that governments do to make life better for their people. To say that China has its priorities wrong is to condem every space program, because they all act as money sinks for government funds that could be better spent elsewhere.

    bil


  • You know what gets me about stories like this? It's that I have to read so many *stupid* posts made by arrogant, self-centered US citizens. I hate that it's these few people who are doing the most mouthing and getting the most attention drawn to them. It's really no wonder the rest of the world is starting to hate us. I hate those same people and I'm about as American as they come.

    Please don't judge all Americans by the example set by the few that seem to do the most talking. I keep seeing posts that say things like "you Americans are all the same" or "Americans are so arrogant". Geez, come on. Stop making blanket statements like that. We're not ALL alike.

    The United States of America has done a great deal for the world; that's true. However, the good ol' US of A isn't spic-n-span clean and we're FAR from self-sufficient. The world has done more for us than we have for it. Hell, the simple fact that we're only a couple hundred years old should make that point fairly obvious. Yeah, we seem to be "on top" right now, but that changes. It absolutely will change. And when it does, you better hope we have some friends still around or else the US of A will be no more.

    I guess this post is making a dual plea. First, to my fellow Americans that are making all these ridiculous posts...grow up! Look around you. The "rest" of the world is a hell of a lot larger than we are; their interests and opinions are more important than ours and you better learn that. Second, to those non-US folks reading all these posts and drawing blanket conclusions about Americans...stop it! You're falling into a trap unknowingly set by these idiots. We're not all that simple minded and we're not all that hateful.
  • I'm pleased and impressed that China has entered club of spacefaring nations. I'm also thinking: forget "Hilton in space", how about "Happy Good Luck House, Chinese food to eat in or take out" ;-D
  • I'm afraid to break the news to you, but that would NOT mean China is only the third country to send austronauts to space. If they were successful, it would make China the third country to send astronauts to space in their own space shuttle. I'm absolutely positively sure that us Canadians have sent our own austronauts into space in NASA space shuttles, and it's possible that other countries also have similar partnerships between their space programs and either the U.S. or Russia.
  • Ummm.. you just proved my point. Blatant self interest.

    So you attack my post accusing the US of self-interest, by showing exactly that, and then think I haven't done my homework?

  • The point is, their government doesn't really like us at all.

    You know what? MOST governments, including most Western European ones.. hell.. even most citizens of most countries.. don't like the US government very much at all, and I think they're completely justified.
    China pretty much keeps to themselves. Sure, there are internal human rights violations, and that's a problem, but at least China's not stomping around the world violating other countries' citizens' rights.

    So yeah, China doesn't like the US government very much.. it's because no one likes the US government very much.

    As I said before, the people don't have control over the government, do they?

    That's a really naive statement. Just because the government does bad things certainly does NOT mean they are not at all accountable to the people. They are. Ultimately, making your people happy is the best way to stay in power. Why do you think China has been slowly but surely progressing to be more open both economically and (yes) politically? It's because that's what the people want.. it's because that's how people are made happier.

    Freedom of speech in China still needs work, but it has improved greatly since 1989. Those students who protested DID have an effect. The government isn't going to just agree to all demands outright, but they are slowly implementing the changes that people want.

    (Before you say so, yes, there are some areas where the government won't budge, like Tibet. But that doesn't mean they haven't been improving in other areas.)
  • It seems to me that China could buy all the rocket technology it needs to put a man in orbit from the former Soviet Union. Maybe they'll cut a deal for MIR, too.

    Don't know about Europe, Japan, etc. but after the Toshiba 3 axis NC flap who knows?

    As far as I can tell the concept of 'secret technology' is an oxymoron. A fellow I know by the name of Ari Phillips published a working design for an A-bomb when he was a teenager - based on declassified documents he found in various libraries. Created quite a stir, it did.

    Can't put the worms back in the can oh no!

    Hey, let's put export controls on strong crypto! That will stop the drug runners, commie pinkos, Democrats, tax cheats, the Michigan Militia, Posse Comitatus and all those heathens terrorists from sending coded transmissions!

    Yeah, right.

  • China has been launching satellites for a while now. This is only the first launch of their manned spacecraft, but without an occupant. I am surprised no one else has noted this error.

    --
  • (And yes, "mindless Limbaugh-ism" is redundant.)

    You're trying to tell us that the Chinese spent all that time pilfering secrets from America's top-secret government-funded research laboratories, and the only secrets they stole were for technology the United States' own space program abandoned almost 30 years ago? What the holy hell are you on about?

    Please, go back to making Monica Lewinsky jokes or something. God knows, we could use more of those!

    - A.P.
    --


    "One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad

  • Oh, really? I wonder if you'll be singing the same song when "Chinese scientists" suddenly develop Keyhole-type spy satellites and Star Wars type defenses that remarkably resemble the work done in the U.S. in the 1980's (and that coincidentally after numerous additional cases of espionage and "technology exchange" with borderline treasonous U.S. companies). What happens when the Chinese start selling these capabilities to our pals in North Korea, Iran, Iraq, etc. etc.

    The world is a much more dangerous place because of this, and responsibility for this rests in large part with our brilliant leaders and strategists.
  • What you fail to recognize is that the "Long March" rockets would blow up on a very precise and regular basis right up until U.S. aerospace companies helped them out with new technology.
  • Well no, supposedly this technology is pretty much the same technology that the Russians and the US used on the 60s. Though I wouldn't put the Chinese beyond "stealing" our technology, I see no reason to believe that this technology necessarily had to come from us directly. Afterall, there was significant technology transfer from the Russia, and alot of the 60s technology is pretty much common knowledge now. Furthermore, the Chinese have some excellent engineers, and significant pockets of technological development.
  • I can see how you might interpret my comments as racist, but quite honestly, they are not. If I believed that they had truly developed this on their own, I would be quite happy to give them credit. My recollection, however, of numerous news stories a few months back is that several U.S. aerospace companies were under investigation for having illegally transferred to the Chinese technology that could be used to solve various problems they had been having with the Long March (namely, it blows up a lot).
  • In the two nominally communist superpowers, we have countries which went from being relatively backwards little stumble-bums of history, to world-class superpowers, in the space of a few decade

    This doesn't exactly stand up to close scrutiny. The nations that kept on with Communism are back to bankrupt stumblebum status, and the one that is now shooting off rockets has adopted free market principles.

    A real tragedy of communism is that it has never been attempted in a country with a genuine democratic tradition.

    Take a close look at the Allende regime in Chile. This was a real try at Communism in a country with a real democratic tradition. It turned into an economic disaster ending up a with military coup. Just what any democratic nation needs. Fortunately for Chile's sake they are back to a democracy (and a strong economy) again.

  • Actually, my first thought when I saw this article was exactly the same as the original poster. China has done some very dodgy things to get our latest missile technology, and that's pretty much the same stuff used to send people into space. Think about the Clinton scandals and John Huang.

    This is not a racist statement; I'm sure China has many fine scientists, and I'm sure they're capable of doing good stuff. But the espionage is a fact, and the transfer of US technology is a fact. They wouldn't have paid so much for it if they weren't going to put it to use.

    D

    ----
  • What is it with you americans??? Do you really think you're the only nation in the world that can invent anything? Or for that matter, that all other countries just want to put weapons in space???

    Here's a little reality check:

    • US space program was built by europeans
    • "Star Wars" was thought up by the US

    Duh.

    I welcome China to the small club of nations capably of contributing to space research. I'm sure they had help in doing so (like everyone else has had) and that they will use it mainly for peaceful purposes (like everyone else, although I head that the US have a lot of .. oh well).

    (this is not flamebait, this is well needed insightfulness ... It's scary to see so many americans here who haven't got a clue - isn't Slashdot supposed to be a community of _intelligent_ people?)

  • I think the article and previous ones on this subject seem to suggest that a lot of the technology was bought from Russia rather than the US.. I doubt either China or the US would want to do any dealing with each other on this, as it is speculated that the reasons for this program are entirely political, ie China are demonstating themselves as being a promanent super power. The rumours about China starting its own manned space program were fueled by the fact that several chinese astronauts were sent for training in Russian space training camps.
  • ... when you don't have the industrial-financial base to support it. It takes a heck of capital, both physical (plants, machinery, materials) and human (know-how, skills, training) to turn the ideas (stolen or otherwise) into real actual working machines. The US had to go nearly $6 trillion into debt to fund the Cold War (accumulation of deficits from Korean, Vietnam and various anti-communist insurgencies) and even then it was a rather close thing that they didn't go bankrupt before Russia did. And selling off Mickey Mouse hats and movies to the rest of the world is not going to pay this off either.

    If you look at China (how many people here have actually visited that place?) you'd still find mud houses (strangely enough sitting next to a modern satellite equiped apartment block) in central Beijing. Their energy needs are still powered by high suphur content coal (one reason why interior cities are so polluted). And too many of their really good technical people leave and/or are snatched up by Western firms. Despite the war-mongering vote chasing by Bush, China is still pretty much an agarian society with much agriculture still being doing by hand. People forget that the US war machine is funded by taxes (40% of GDP?) from realatively high incomes (by world standards) that goes to pay for all those nicy shiny missiles (which have to be replaced after shooting up the reminants of Serbian infrastructure) and associated pork-barrelling. In fact some people would claim that the US economy is still on a war footing.

    It is only now that resources are being released back into the civilian sector that you see such advances in communications (CDMA was originally a military application) and software. China's level of technical skill is comparatively poor and while they may be a world power by 2050, at the moment it is not exactly in a state to wave any sticks. IMHO, the US has more worries about trying to keep moral high and designing attractive careers for its own military personnel than worrying about any other army on the earth which they could beat hansomely (given enough warning) except the Isrealiis who have a (justifiably) paranoid and professional army. In other words, if you're Chinese and have a hankering for violence, the best idea is to give up now, emigrate to the US and learn how to play Quake. :-)

    LL
  • Take a close look at the Allende regime in Chile. ...ending up a with military coup.
    ...which was sponsored by the CIA and a couple of US-based multinationals IIRC...

    Zontar The Mindless,

  • The ones that are back in stumblebum status are the ones that have made a radical shift to a free market/democratic society. China may be using a free market model for many things, but it is still deeply socialist, much more so than any European country.

    Personally, I agree that Allende's regime would probably have been an economic disaster for a number of reasons if he had implemented the policies he had initially proposed, but let's be honest - he didn't fall, he was pushed, before he had any real chance to do much of *anything,* by Pinochet and the CIA.

    I'm not an apologist for the the 20th century communist state, by any means, but they myths currently being propagated about the failures of socialism overlook these basic facts:

    1. American success is primarly a product of World War Two, not of the inherent value of the capitalist system. George S. Kennan described the situation best - at the end of WW2, the US directly controlled about half of the world's wealth, and the role of US geopolitics was to maintain that precarious imbalance.

    2. Given that, the socialist economies of the eastern bloc performed amazing things in light of the ongoing hostility of the US. 3rd world countries that aligned themselves more closely with the US did not do as well, since, sadly, it was their lot to preserve the imbalance mentioned by Kennan, by providing cheap labor and natural resources. The disasters of the socialist economies has more to do with centralization and autocracy than anything else - viz. the disastrous agricultural projects of the 70's in the USSR, largely the result of fantasies of Moscow apparatchiks.

    3. The liberalized economies of Latin America are only serving a small fraction of the economy. A recent article in Latin Trade described how the Latin middle class, which American free market boosters had predicted would mushroom over the bast 10+ years of free-market policies, has been in crisis and dwindling, with the wealth of the upper classes expanding (and often moved offshore) and the poor remaining solidly poor. The victory of Hugo Chavez in Venezuela and the renewed vigor of Latin leftists parties in the last couple years, now with growing middle class support (which is always fortunate, since it keeps these parties sensible, the governments democratic, and the economies mixed,) is a result of the dawning realization that the majority of Latin Americans are simply not meant to benefit from the implementation of free market policies.

  • Atleast get your facts right. (Score:3)

    by FallLine ( 12211 ) on Sunday November 21, 1999 @04:45AM (#1515640)
    Einstein did NOT develop the Atom bomb. You might say he sparked it, and layed __some_ of the fundamental groundwork. Though the development of the Atom bomb was probably inevitable, the Manhattan project was something special. The source of the intellect (e.g., Jewish Germans during WWII) is of little relevance; it is the forces that fostered the development that sets us apart.

    I'm not convinced that societies/government, such as China and the USSR, are capable of such fundamental leaps in the scale of the manhattan project. In fact, The USSR did, after all, feel the need to steal our technology. Very little technological advancement came out of the USSR in its prime. The same can be said for China of yesterday. However, I believe China is making fundamental changes towards a more free and open society and towards capitalism, as they approach this, they will become the next superpower.
  • Uh, U.S. space program built by Europeans? What? Sure, the Statue of Liberty was built by the French, but that doesn't mean *everything* we accomplish is built by Europe. Obviously both the U.S. and Russia looked at German rocket designs, but the resulting rockets were vastly different from the German designs and were, surprise surprise, built inside the United States.

    I don't see why it's wrong to have pride in one's country. It's true that the U.S. has led the way into space. And no, Europe had nothing to do with it. If that bothers you because you're not a U.S. citizen, then I'm sorry, deal with it. Take pride in the fact that at least your country's leaders don't have harems...

  • Americans (Score:3)

    by Fuhrer ( 111424 ) on Sunday November 21, 1999 @05:00AM (#1515647)
    Its really disturbing to see that you Americans think that China is *always* up to no good. Its so hypocritical that a nation that uses its power to its own benefit (and no one elses) to say that China is now doing something wrong by putting something in space.

    I live in Hong Kong, and sometimes you people amaze me by how narrow-minded you are.

    You guys need to wake up from the American dream and face the reality of the real world.

    Go ahead, moderate me down, but you all know its true.
  • I think we can safely say that it will be quite a while before China gets to Mars. Remember how long ago it was when the Russia sent Yuri Gagarin into space? That's at least a forty-year span, there. China will have to make all that up.
  • Insightful? more like flamebait.

    US space program was built by europeans

    Really? A few ex-Nazi rocket scientists captured from Peenemunde do not a manned space program make. It takes many billions of dollars plus a large industrial infrastructure and engineering talent in depth to put together a real manned space program. To come out with the statement that Europeans built the US Space program is flat out nonsense and shows a level of bigotry and idiocy almost beyond comprehension.

    If all it took were a couple of scientists, well I would expect that we would see some European flags on the moon, and space shuttles taking off from Sweden. Last time I looked there were none.

    and that they [China] will use it mainly for peaceful purposes

    Since when has the Chinese government shown this level of enlightenment?

    It's scary to see so many americans here who haven't got a clue - isn't Slashdot supposed to be a community of _intelligent_ people?

    Intelligent people realize that any effort the size of the US Space Program is not the result of the contribution of a small number of individuals.

    It is also scary to see Europeans with supposedly such a cosmopolitan world view stereotyping Americans as clueless. Well, here is a clue regarding American technical prowess: Over 80% of Nobel Prizes awarded since WWII have gone to people working in North America.

  • And Linux brought them there (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 21, 1999 @06:10AM (#1515658)
    Intriguing. They embrace Linux as their official OS, and shortly after, they are able to enter space.
  • Funny how we Americans use our technology to our own benefit and nobody else's? Well, Fuhrer (uh...nice name), ever hear of the Russians? And their little junk-station called Mir? And how they didn't have money to pay for it? And how the U.S. saved their patooties?

    Ever hear of the International Space Station? And how the U.S., Russia, and lots of other countries are working together, combining technology and resources, to make it a reality? Hmm?

    Wake up from your own dream, pal. Perhaps I'm biased, but I'd say that there are few, if any, countries who have shared more of their technology and knowledge than the U.S. Here, let me think. Do you drive a car? If not, then you probably take a taxi, bus, or even limousine. Guess where that nice car was invented? Yep, right here in the good ol' U.S. of A. Ever been in an airplane? I'm sure you have. Guess who invented that? The Wright Brothers, also in the U.S. Ever use an "IBM-compatible" PC? Ever eat at McDonald's? Heh, I think you get the point.

  • Yes, the U.S.S.R. had the first space launch, first manned mission, etc. But as soon as the U.S. beat them to the moon, they fell far behind. Ever since then, the U.S. has been el numero uno.
  • I think you underestimate the ability of the Chinese to develope technology themselves and you overestimate the capacity of the US to control knowledge. It may be expedient and cheaper for China to obtain space technology through espionage, but they certainly have the resources to generate that information themselves.

    I think you also overestimate the ability of the US to go it alone. In many fields, the majority of scientists and engineers in the US are foreign born. They come here because the US government lets them, because some places in the US are nice to live, because a lot of their colleagues came here before, because the standard of living is pretty good for them, and because the US government still has some of the most generous government funding for research and development in the world.

    Furthermore, the US space program is based on a vigorous exchange of ideas with other countries, often even joint projects. The little bit of information the Chinese may have wrested from some US contractors probably pales in comparison. The only difference is that the US has branded that exchange of ideas "espionage" in the case of China, while it is completely acceptable when it happens, say, between a French contractor and a US space company.

    Restrictions on what information can be shared with China may well make sense from a military point of view. But underestimating the Chinese or overestimating the US are both dangerous mistakes and will likely lead to poor policy decisions in the US in the future.

  • The engineering talent came primarily from Nazi Germany

    Not hardly. There were and are tens of thousands of engineers in the US space program. The number of Nazis brought over from Peenemunde numbers about 125. To say they built the US space program is nonsense. von Braun did help a lot on booster design, but congressional mistrust of the ex-Nazis also made it hard to get funding for the idea of manned space flight. It is also true the Russian booster design was ahead of von Braun's work.

    There were a lot of other flight technology programs going on in the US at that time, independent of the German rocket scientists. The breaking of the sound barrier by Chuck Yaeger is an example. These also made strong contributions to the US space program, culmanating with test flights by the astronauts in the X-15.

    Europeans like to think they contributed the lion share in the development of space flight, but they seem to forget it was Robert Goddard who designed and flew the first real rockets.

  • None of the coverage I have read up to this point has picked up on the real signifigance of this story. A manned module and an ICBM is it's payload.

    Yesterday, China put the world on notice that it can now strike anywhere in the world within half an hour.

    All the other possibilities for China are minor side effects of this ability. Weapons in space, trips to Mars, etc. are not the focus of developing rocket technology.

    Take note: China can put a nuke on your doorstep.
  • Here's a detailed history of the Chinese manned space program from the Encyclopedia Astronautica:

    http://solar.rtd.utk.edu/~mwa de/articles/chidoors.htm [utk.edu]

    Cheers,
    -j.

  • The article is a little vague. Did this craft come down on water or dry land?

    The "Shenzhou" spacecraft landed in the Inner Mongolia region of China, on land.

    They mention parachutes and retro-rockets and resemblance to Apollo.

    Actually, Shenzhou far more closely resembles the Russian Soyuz spacecraft than any American vehicle; close enough that many have wondered how much Russian assistance was provided to the Chinese.

    Incidentally, Mark Wade's excellent Encyclopedia Astronautica has a great deal of additional information and images of Shenzhou [utk.edu]; perhaps the most comprehensive online resource available.

    - Jeff

  • Re:The humans rights violations are irksome (Score:3)

    by Stonehand ( 71085 ) on Sunday November 21, 1999 @07:20AM (#1515702) Homepage
    * The Soviet Union's status as a nuclear superpower was largely due to espionage. Fuchs, Rosenberg, and other sympathizers funneled information including plans for atomic devices to the NKVD; without this information, they would have been hard pressed to come close to the US.

    * Much of the initial rocketry research was done by Nazi scientists working on the V series weapons; if memory serves, a few ended up in the States as researchers instead of war prisoners. That's about as far from the Communist ideal as you can get.
  • There's nothing about point #1 that I particularly disagree with (except to note that 6% of the US GDP was equivalent to the a lot more than 20% of the USSR's GDP, in lieu of the resources that the US had at its disposal in the postware period.) Challenging some myths about communism shouldn't default into a defense of Stalinism, except that I would put Stalinism in as much a lineage with Tsarism as with Marxism. Can you say "pogrom?"

    As for point #2, I would have to disagree. Great minds go where their research will be funded and they'll get a good standard of living, which is why Von Braun didn't head over here until AFTER WW2. He (and Mengele and his ilk) didn't seem to mind "enslavement" in the Third Reich, when it came with well-funded labs and cushy paychecks.

    There are freer societies than the US, without a doubt. They just can't pay as well.

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