China Enters Space 344
Almost everybody sent it: "China successfully launches and retrieves its first unmanned spacecraft, moving it a step closer to becoming the third nation to send astronauts into space..." BBC story - SpaceViews story - official press release from China Daily.
Re:Its not about that any more. (Score:1)
Exactly my point. Don't complaint about lack of human rights and labor laws, if you can't live without it. I'm sure alot of ppl on
A little rant (Was: Uh oh....) (Score:1)
>you should realize that war and the chinese go
>together like yin and yang
Are you daft? How fucking stupid are you? China has been *repeatedly* and *successfully* invaded since Genghis Khan. The Mongols (not one, not two, but *three* generations of the Khan family), the British (Hong Kong and the Opium Wars), and the Japanese (pre-WWII) have all successfully occupied Chinese soil. What, you think that "Wall of China" thingy is a "militarily offsensive" structure? Feel free to pull your head out of your asshole any time now.
The only reason China is still a country today is that its greatest strength is converting the invading force to their culture. Marco Polo said of Kubali Khan is was impossible to believe he was Mongol. How many British customs have been created or reinforced by occupying China (tea?)? How many Japanese customs?
China has only recently become externally aggressive (Korea, Taiwan), and compared to how China itself was treated and subjegated (sp?), very kind to external countries. Before Communism, China's foreign policy was "You leave us alone, and we with leave you alone". More or less, this still holds true today.
To all those "China stealing rocket technology from us" whiners, China *invented* the field of rocketry, and Europeans *stole* that idea from the Chinese. I guess that the Chinese have just been paid back for that. As well, if open source standards and free information (you know, those ideals that you so mindlessly and hypocritically agree with, defend, and quote as gospel) would have been universally applied, they could have just have downloaded the plans from the web.
Of course, the human rights issues internally are pretty ugly, but hey, in America, you do or have done similar (but not on the same scale) things (McCarthyism, Salem witch hunts, fag-bashing, slavery, race riots, geek oppression, Japanese concentration camps in WWII), so climb off those high horses. As well, USA has historically been VERY aggressive (including invading MY home country, Canada. Does the term "manifest destiny" mean anything to you?).
Just some flame bait to piss off those knee jerkers who can't think before they post.
Re:Oh please give it up! (Score:2)
I have no doubt that the Chinese space program is being fueled by Russian technology to a far greater extent than US technology and I never said otherwise. Pictures of the capsule resemble Soyuz, the bundled configuration of boosters is a classical Russian design (and may be why they never went to the moon), and the landing site are all characteristics of Russian technology.
It will be interesting to see how long it takes them to overcome the booster problem for their moon shot.
Re:Ruefully belaboring the obvious (Score:1)
One has to look at the overall situation. Nothing is perfect. But to keep the whole better, some must make sacrifices. The difference is the model under which these sacrifices take place. In the military, insubordination is treated as treason(or some thing else that is just as serious) and the perpetrator can be shot. And yet almost every normal country has a military that they are very proud of. Its a different model of doing things. Military ensures the stability of a country against malicious invaders. Because millitaries are accepted by every one in the world, they prosper.
Still, China is does not have such a ridged system, its a different model--one that not yet accepted by the world. As all complaints about China goes--Its bad here, its bad there... Its bad because they are compensating for some problems-- such as a quarter of the world's population. Try to govern that many people all cramed in very little space using the American model. It will fail miserably.
All this said, I must take a deep bow to those who did make such great sacrifices in order to change a flawed system. They are the truly respectable ones. acknowledge the changes that they have made, and help China to keep these changes. Don't destroy their legacies by ignoring the things that they paid so much for.
Re:Don't be afraid (Score:3)
*Ahem*.. Excuse me, but which country has actually droopped nukes on people? Which country is constantly bombing other sovereign nations with neither declaring war nor consulting the U.N.? China threatens Taiwan with weapons, but has it actually attacked them?
Before you get scared that China is going to attack other countries, look at the countries that are ALREADY attacking other countries!
When we "still" let poor people in, excuse me? (Score:3)
Re:Start another space race? (Score:2)
Re:Avro Arrow!!!! boo hoo hooo, boo hoo hooo! (Score:1)
When the Americans' balls are to the war, they *always* turn to Canada for help (Avro, D-Day, and any American-sponsered United Nations motion; because, guess what, internationally, Americans are despised). However, us Canadians always get paid back in spades (can you say "Auto-Pact" and "unlimited defense treaties"? Knew you could!).
Re:Espionage or Avoiding Re-invention of the Wheel (Score:2)
Good grief! Please actually go take a trip to China and look around. You'll see Coke stands next to Adidas stores (along with domestic merchandise). Talk to the people who live there. They're making a living, investing in stocks, etc. Same kinds of things that you do. Go to a restaurant, and when a beeper goes off, half the people in the area look down at their belts..
Life in China is hardly 1984-ish at all.
countries that are bent with killing the 'evil capitalists'.
Capitalism is the rule in China these days. It's far more capitalist than even the US in many ways. In a typical middle-class family, everyone from grandparents to kids know more about stocks than most people in this country do. Please look up some first-hand info.
Go talk to some people who actually come from China. China does not "pose a threat to our existence". I can't believe how effective the propagandizing media has been in affecting intelligent Slashdotters.
Re:Uh oh.... (Score:2)
I don't see it as being much more dangerous, and nor do I see it being the responsibility of leaders and strategists.
comunist effectiveness (Score:1)
Hot Russian Brides Available [nytimes.com]
I'm sure that these people can tell you stories about the effective uses of resources.
Whatever happened to scientific cooperation? (Score:1)
Re:A little rant (Was: Uh oh....) (Score:2)
At one point you state America as having "been around for how long, 200 some years" and yet not three lines prior you mention Salem, 400 years ago.
Not favourable terms? Wow. I coulda sworn "most favoured nation" status could have meant something else...
And the Americans didn't do this from the Germans? (Score:1)
No doubt Chnese rocketry was influenced by the Amricans, the Russians, the Germans, and perhaps, gasp, the Chinese, who invented rocketry centuries ago...
(Great, I'm fanning the flames... Sorry guys.)
Don't be afraid (Score:4)
China has replaced the Soviet Union as the big bad wolf in American eyes, and when supposedly rational Slashdotters take part in the fear mongering, it's easy to see how movements like McCarthyism arose in America.
Start another space race? (Score:3)
I wonder if China started planning trips to Mars would the US's space program try to speed things up on it's own planning? Maybe end up starting another space race type thing?
Just a thought.
Not difficult to get into space nowadays... (Score:1)
When America and Russia were competing to get into space in the 50s and 60s it took a huge amount of resources and computers weren't around to help with the math.
I'm hardly surprised by the fact that China has put a capsule into space, after all a number of private consortiums are competing to launch private space rockets. There's no denying a lot of them are doing it for fun, but there are a few serious contenders, and a lot of them are doing the work for very little money. Most of the major problems which consumed resources have already been solved and all it takes to find a solution is a quick web browse. I'm very surpised we don't have at least 15 nations with manned space capability by now.
Anyway, if anyone knows any different, please reply.
Re:Oh come on (Score:2)
Space race? (Score:1)
Re:Americans (Score:1)
Why would they... (Score:2)
Chinese military rockets and other achievements (Score:3)
Actually, you're quite wrong. The chinese invented rocketry for the purpose of sieging castles. They were firing explosive rockets over city walls long before Europeans even had cannons.
And as you may know, it took European inventiveness to put a practical use to paper, i.e. the printing press.
Actually, iirc, movable type printing was invented long before Gutenberg in the East as well. It's just that with Gutenberg, it really took off.
But you're right (sort of) when you allude to the fact that the Chinese's biggest fault was in being too self-congratulatory and unaccepting of outsiders because they were "just barbarians". The ancient Greeks had a similar attitude and they likewise fell.
But you know what? After all the crap China went through from European abuse in the 19th and early 20th Century, it learned its lesson. China now is more eager to assimilate other cultures than almost any other place.
And you know who's becoming really arrogant and unaccepting of others (always thinking they're the best)? The US.
If history taught us anything, that's going to be a problem for the US...
The humans rights violations are irksome (Score:2)
One amusing fact is that there is a myth of communist ineffectiveness (I refer to communism as a historical fact, not as an ideal model). In the two nominally communist superpowers, we have countries which went from being relatively backwards little stumble-bums of history, to world-class superpowers, in the space of a few decades. The Soviet Union managed to develop a space program only a decade after having been completely mauled by the second world war, in addition to improving the standard of living of its populace to a very high extent (vis a vis the pre-communist standard of living.)
A real tragedy of communism is that it has never been attempted in a country with a genuine democratic tradition. I attribute China's autocratic nature more to China's historical political culture than to communism per se.
Perhaps the eurosocialist model is just that fusion of socialism and democracy.
Not a bad thing necessarily... (Score:1)
Re:How did they land? (Score:1)
Without any glorious pictures to the contrary, I imagine something went wrong.
Engineering achievment or espionage? (Score:2)
Re:The humans rights violations are irksome (Score:1)
ummmm... (Score:1)
Okay, maybe it's just me, but how is it news if it's decades behind? I don't see it.
the spacecraft appeared to resemble the Apollo series of capsules launched by NASA in the US in the late 1960s.
Gee, wonder why. Can anyone say, "technology exchange"? I mean really, doesn't it seem just a tad fishy to anyone other than myself that 10 years after we send up Apollo, after having advanced beyond that, that the Chinese re-invent the damn thing just after our texchange?
How is this news?
*sarcasm on*
In recent news today, the Chinese have a new TV show, called Sassame Street, featuring characters "slightly resembling" those of our own Sesame Street. The Chinese on the other hand dispute those claims, stating that "Bag Bird + Cookie Demon" were "designed and manufactured by Chinese scientists".
*end sarcasm*
*end comment*
Milatary in space (Score:1)
This may lead us to another cold war type of scenario. Far from being bad (as long as we don't nuke each other) the pressure to develop to innovate and even to explore space will be great thus blasting the world out of its sort of consumer compacancy (i.e. does going to space/basic research mean more money/bigger TV for me. No? then don't fund it).
Re:... (Score:1)
This old joke:
At the height of Chinese-Taiwan tension in 60's, local militia men in the province of Fujian, directly at the shore of Taiwan strait, invent a way to detect Taiwanese infiltrators. The militia would go to a local bus station, got the passengers lined up, and order everyone do "Radio Aerobic Workout", a exercise routine every school childern in Comm. China knows. The one can't follow the music to do the routine were rounded up and send to interrogations.
Re:Waving (Chop)Sticks and UN security Concil (Score:1)
ROC was one of the five Allied countries of WWII. (US, Brits, France, Russia, China). After ROC lost china over communists in 1949, they still hold on their UN seat until 70's, when they were forced to resign (saving the face of being vetoed out). Of course US was on the side of Taiwan.
And China doesn't have enough Nuke to kill off the man kind. I think Ukrine has more Nuke than China has. (pure speculation)
Name of the Spacecraft (Score:1)
The translation "God ship" - more appropriately should be as "gods' ship" - misses a subtlty of the name. "Shenzhou" has the same pronounciation as "gods' land", which in Chinese traditionally refer to the land of China. A pretty smart name from Jiang Zemin - the General secretory of CCP (read China
P.S. "gods" probably should be small capital because it's not the God as in christian religion.
Priorities and their location (Score:1)
For God's sake, misplaced priorities are SERIOUSLY hurting a LOT of people. A little humanitarian intervention would be nice to see, regardless of all the politics. (This being said from Canada, where I know you can criticize, but partly we're on the right track).
Re:Minor Detail (Score:1)
Nor do I spend anytime reading the detail of their/our actual actions. I just want to know the moral justification behide it.
CY
French not in danger from Chinese in Canada (Score:1)
You'll see that French-speakers still make up just shy of 25% of the population. Chinese-speakers are about 2.5%, a tenth of the number of French-speakers.
The big news is the incredible growth in that percentage amount. Twenty years ago the Chinese percentage was 0.4%. That's an incredible growth rate. Chinese is the first language to knock the big two "allophone" languages down a notch. Chinese has supplanted Italian and German in Canada, but by no means French.
p.s. I thought the rest of your post was pretty cool
Re:Engineering achievment or espionage? (Score:2)
Unfortunately, the FBI revoked his security clearance, suspecting that he was a Communist, in 1949. Later, during a trip back to see his ailing father in Shanghai, his bags were searched, and his papers were held to be secrets.
In the end, he was 'exchanged' for US Korean war POWs. He went on to develop Chinese ICBMs, weather satellites, and the Silkworm missle.
This is oddly reminiscent of the Germans getting a lot of their ideas for rockets during the WWII from Goddard's patents (which were ignored by the US).
thad
Random implications (Score:1)
If it is easier from space... that has some interesting implications for the military establishment...
Showing our true colours (Score:1)
Take a piece of what should be good news (a new partner in space exploration), throw a flag in the mix, and watch the little shaved apes go at each other like it's 1 000 000 BC. Supposedly intelligent, enlightened people become patriotic berserkers when several nations whose governments told the populace to hate the other enter the arena.
On the one hand, the gerontocracy in control of China has a pathetic human rights record. On the other hand, it's not like the populace has much choice for the time being. Witness Tiananmen Square - nice attempt fellas, too bad the army had the guns.
I think we should welcome a new nation to the ultimate frontier. Make a few magnanimous gestures, speak a few kind words, they may even have something to contribute to the "international" space station.
Old fears die hard, eh? Mao is dead, and the times are a-changin'. Slowly, but a-changin'.
And as this entire thread has shown, attitudes change even slower.
Or maybe I'm just naive, and put too much faith in this species to get past itself.
Re:Nobel Prizes won by North Americans since WWII (Score:1)
However I think that the educational system in the US is much better than the impression you might get by reading the newpaper.
It is true that if you examine the average score on a standardized test given in the US, and compare it to that achieved by students in, say France you get a result that is not impressive. What people DON'T see reported by the press is what the distribution of scores is, or what the reuslts of tests of things other than regurgitated facts.
In the US the distribution is broad - students who have special ability are generally given more opportunity in the US. The result is that the US test scores for the upper percentiles are in fact as good as if not better than any in the world.
Another aspect rarely reported is that tests that measure things OTHER than the retention of factual knowledge (say problem solving ability or creative writing skills) paint a very different picture. These sorts of tests show an American education as being on average as good as if not better than any in the world.
Another factor with education in the US that is unusual compared to other nations is the number of people who go on to post secondary education. We have a very strong system of trade schools, community colleges and so on. The result is that over 50% of Americans receive some sort of post secondary degree, 80% some form of post high school education. These are by far the best numbers in the world. Because of this we don't have the same problem that the British and French do with some exam determining your ultimate role in life.
One of the mysteries that the newspapers don't answer when writing about the educational system in the US is how American workers have the highest productivity in the world if their education is so crummy.
And by the way, the stories of Einstein being a poor student are myth. He was no more a poor student than George Washington was an arborist. Einstein actually earned high marks in both primary and secondary school.
The best biography on Einstein I have seen is "Subtle is The Lord" by Abraham Pais. It's a good read, especially if you have some math and physics in your background. And it dispels some myths, too.
But because the US has the budget publicly and privately, of course many of the top-line people from elsewhere (including Canada) will move to the US to follow the opportunity.
I find it amazing that people just refuse to grant the American institutions that attract highly talented people from all over the world the credit they deserve.
The Statue of Liberty is there for a historical reason. The institutions that led to it's construction are still operating. Highly talented individuals who come to the US to pursue their work are given better opportunities than anywhere else. This includes the opportunity to win Nobel Prizes.
This is not a flaw in the US system.
I sure hope someone doesn't point to Linus and Tove and suggest they've somehow "sold out" their Finnish roots.
I hope not too. But it is no accident that Linus is living and working in the US. I recently read that he is also working on a US citizenship.
Re:Why would they... (Score:1)
Well, we HAVE paid them a hell of lot of cash over the years. As an American, I *DO* think the UN owes me a debt of gratitude for my tax dollars. But regardless, I sure as hell don't owe them another dime.
Re:Espionage or Avoiding Re-invention of the Wheel (Score:1)
Now that's a funny statement. Trying to bring in the programmer connection is kinda ridiculous, though.
How do you get those libraries? People who create them post them in public places. Now, suppose you wanted a library that wasn't publicly posted. You have to go about obtaining it in some other way, right? Warez. Stealing. Espionage.
That's the point. Re-inventing the wheel is an excessively trivial analogy for this case.
Re:China and Space (Score:1)
The thing is, China *has* to have advance military technology. Japan doesn't (or can't?) have to. WWII is just 50 years away. And Chinese has used to use centary instead of decade/next presidentcy as a unit to see the future. That's one of the reason China develop advance military protecting/revence techlogoly for Japan's potential unexpected move. (mind you China's navy suck ass, it's not really threadening the southeastern asia.)
You see in Chinese thinking, they/we still can't comprehent the reason of Japan overly-ambitious invasion decades ago. That's why Chinese take extra step in protecting itself from Japan. (personally, I don't care Taiwanese' idea one way or the other, so don't bother to argue this with me.)
The space program is always byproduct of mid/long range missile research and development. It doesn't indicate that China's tech in other area are as good as this one. We still can't produce decent DVD player, car or football player. (Yeah, the real football )
Re:Start another space race? (Score:1)
-----------
"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
Re:The humans rights violations are irksome (Score:1)
#2, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his means" requires dictatorship, because men of ability will always resist enslavement. Thus why the best and brightest around the world immigrate to the U.S. (I work with a bunch of 'em, Brits, Indians, Chinese, you name it), because we have the least repressive government of all the major countries. Which says more about the rest of the world than us. The federal government confiscates 22% of GDP, state/local governments another 11%, and that's despite military spending being gutted to 3% of GDP. And our incompetent draft-dodger Commander-in-Chief is busy pissing off the rest of the world by sending our military tromping off to more expeditions than Reagan and Bush combined!
Congrats (Score:1)
To all those who made it happen, congratulations on a job well done.
---
Peace,
vilvoy
Re:And another thing (Score:1)
Granted, it would be nice if the US were more of a team player and helped everybody else out for the sake of sheer niceness, but people and the sociopolitical/economic entities they associate with are, by their very nature, self-serving.
That's what such entities are created for; take care of their own. It's all fine and dandy, provided that a person/sociopolitical/economic entity does so without infringing upon another's ability to do the same.
In Iraq, US action was necessary to protect its interests. The methods did interfere with how Iraq was going about serving its best interests, but that issue is null because Iraq's own actions interfered with the rights of another nation.
Most Americans feel no connection to East Timor, so it's not considered an important issue in addition to there being little to no sociopolitical or economic benefit to be gained. Selfish, yes. Wrong, perhaps. Illegal, no.
Non-Americans like to complain about this as if their country wouldn't dare to act in such a manner, perhaps because of their inherent "niceness." I guarantee that if any other nation were in the position of the US today, that nation would behave in exactly the same way. That's the dark side of human nature. It sucks.
There is a light at the end of that tunnel, but most people here seem to regard it as B.S., so I'll leave it there.
I don't seem to recall the US tagging itself as a team player, anyhow. The speaches I recall from the Gulf War days by President Bush involved phrases to the effect of "protect the interests of the American people. Oh, and help those nice people in Kuwait get rid of their invaders, too, yeah, that's it." The propaganda circulated through the media, though, emphasized helping Kuwait kick out a Hitler wannabe. Sneaky, sneaky.
Re:... (Score:1)
With our flesh and blood, let us build our new Great Wall!
The GNU programmers faces its greatest danger.
From each one the urgent call for action comes forth.
Arise! Arise! Arise!
Millions with but one heart,
Braving the enemy's fire.
March on!
Braving the BillG's F-U-D.
March on! March on! On!
The car was "invented" in Europe (Score:1)
:
Oceania has *always* been at war with EastAsia! (Score:1)
So BE AFRAID! BE VERY AFRAID!
Its not about that any more. (Score:1)
In Bejing, the Capital of China, there are two very white strips of writing on the red wall, right by chairman Mao's picture(They are big, you can see it all the way across from the tian an men square). One side talks about the longevity of communism and chinese people. The other side hails the longevity of WORLD PEACE! Thats right, It is some thing that was carved in to China as a country when it was formed!
I suggest that every one find a translator and go and take a look at it. where do you see, any where in the United States, or in any country, that opening proclaims that there should be WORLD PEACE in a place that represents national pride?
But technological advancement does not impede world peace, it extends it! So I think millitary considerations should not be such a high priority. In this world, its all about who does the right thing, not who has the biggest gun.
Try this if you don't think so. Start boycotting Chinese produce today to protest ________(what ever, human rights issues, epsionage, what ever you can think of.) See how happy you will be a week from today.
Or try this, make your kid stop watching pokemon for a week. See how happy you will be.
Its nolonger about guns and radars, and missiles. In the new world order, the information age, no one oughta be willing to damage human life to get what he wants. the war is fought on a very different plane.
enjoy.
Re:Our Germans were better than their Germans (Score:1)
Well technically the US had Robert Goddard, and the Germans had a missle capable of hitting London from Germany (the V2). A lot of countries had the beginnings of rocket technology during WWII but the Germans were the best at it, thus the scramble for German scientists after the war. I'm sure keeping them out of Soviet hands had something to do with it, but so did the US desire for the technology.
IIRC most of the US space program was based on WWII German work, and on that carried out by German scientists "recruited" into NASA at the end of the war.
bil
Re:Yeah, and we can nuke 'em right back. (Score:1)
Re:Wow, deeply wrong. (Score:1)
Re:The humans rights violations are irksome (Score:1)
Ahh one of the enduring myths of the cold war, if those dammed ruskies hadn't stolen our technology they would all still be living in caves...
Building nuclear weapons is not actually that hard, the really hard bit is working out that it is possible in the first place. Once the US had demonstrated that atomic weapons work (ie hiroshima) then it was only a matter of time before Soviet scientists managed to overcome the technical difficulties involved in the construction of one. Seeing as this was one of Stalins pet projects, and it had huge prestige and national security implications the resources put into it were huge and the bombs were built. America does not have a monopoly on talented scientists, nor does western style democracy lead naturally to technial superioity. Sorry to burst your bubble.
>* Much of the initial rocketry research was done by Nazi scientists working on the V series weapons; if memory serves, a few ended up in the States as researchers instead of war prisoners. That's about as far from the Communist ideal as you can get.
But the US isn't communist so why would they try to live up to the communist ideal? I dont understand your point.
bil
Re:Start another space race? (Score:2)
Re:Why would they... (Score:1)
Espionage or Avoiding Re-invention of the Wheel? (Score:2)
I mean, hello? If something exists elsewhere, why re-invent the wheel? There are lots of programmers here, right? Don't you try finding libraries for things that have already been done instead of re-implementing everything yourself?
You COULD implement everything yourself, but that'd take a lot more time, and is just plain silly.
Re-inventing the wheel is generally considered a STUPID thing to do. Yet, if people don't do it in these cases, they're being inferior and incapable of coming up with something themselves. I see it as just common sense.
Re:The humans rights violations are irksome (Score:1)
Keep in mind that there were no nukes at the time. A conventional bomb on that time's rockets wasn't very effective. The nazi rocket-weapons didn't help them much. Shorter range than a bomber plane, and barely enough accuracy to hit entire cities. A bridge, airport or factory was too small targets to aim for. The kill ratio was something like 2 people per V-weapon fired.
Nukes made long-distance rockets useful, due to the large affected area. Better navigational systems made the conventional long-distance rockets useful too. But try getting that kind of precision from a mechanically guided rocket of the forties...
china daily highlights (Score:1)
Did anyone else follow the link to china daily [chinadaily.com.cn]?
This [chinadaily.com.cn] is a highlight?
Re:Oh please give it up! (Score:1)
Let's hear the rest of the list.
Re:Why would they... (Score:2)
That's like saying the local cornershop owes it to you to provide free sauce on the hotdog you refuse to pay for.
not technically true... (Score:1)
"China successfully launches and retrieves its first unmanned spacecraft, moving it a step closer to becoming the third nation to send astronauts into space..."
i'm almost positive a french guy flew on a russian craft once. unless they mean "send them there themselves," but that's not what that sentence is saying.
Re:Oh please give it up! (Score:1)
You're looking in the wrong place, the European Space Agency [esrin.esa.it]lauch Ariane from French Guiana (sp?) on the North coast of South America.
Just a thought but is the ESA the only space programme to involve more then one coutry?
Bil
Re:The humans rights violations are irksome (Score:1)
Also, every third world nation that ever revolted toward communism would have US sponsored counter-revolutions a few weeks later.
Would communism work in the real world? I have no idea. As far as I'm concerned, Capitalism doesn't work either. Freedom is totally relative in this world, especially these days where information is more abundant them it's ever been.
And another thing (Score:2)
Not so. The US consistently only volunteers to help where things are in its best interest. And not only in the military sense. Iraq? Oil. Taiwan? Computers (witness the infamous "Earthquake in Taiwan? Oh no! RAM prices will go up!" comments).
East Timor. Doesn't have a lot to offer the US, so they stay way the hell away. The US isn't a team player, it leans heavily towards self-interest.
Re:Priorities and their location (Score:1)
bil
Awe, geez. (Score:2)
Please don't judge all Americans by the example set by the few that seem to do the most talking. I keep seeing posts that say things like "you Americans are all the same" or "Americans are so arrogant". Geez, come on. Stop making blanket statements like that. We're not ALL alike.
The United States of America has done a great deal for the world; that's true. However, the good ol' US of A isn't spic-n-span clean and we're FAR from self-sufficient. The world has done more for us than we have for it. Hell, the simple fact that we're only a couple hundred years old should make that point fairly obvious. Yeah, we seem to be "on top" right now, but that changes. It absolutely will change. And when it does, you better hope we have some friends still around or else the US of A will be no more.
I guess this post is making a dual plea. First, to my fellow Americans that are making all these ridiculous posts...grow up! Look around you. The "rest" of the world is a hell of a lot larger than we are; their interests and opinions are more important than ours and you better learn that. Second, to those non-US folks reading all these posts and drawing blanket conclusions about Americans...stop it! You're falling into a trap unknowingly set by these idiots. We're not all that simple minded and we're not all that hateful.
Well done! (Score:2)
Not true (Score:2)
Re:And another thing (Score:2)
So you attack my post accusing the US of self-interest, by showing exactly that, and then think I haven't done my homework?
Re:Espionage or Avoiding Re-invention of the Wheel (Score:2)
You know what? MOST governments, including most Western European ones.. hell.. even most citizens of most countries.. don't like the US government very much at all, and I think they're completely justified.
China pretty much keeps to themselves. Sure, there are internal human rights violations, and that's a problem, but at least China's not stomping around the world violating other countries' citizens' rights.
So yeah, China doesn't like the US government very much.. it's because no one likes the US government very much.
As I said before, the people don't have control over the government, do they?
That's a really naive statement. Just because the government does bad things certainly does NOT mean they are not at all accountable to the people. They are. Ultimately, making your people happy is the best way to stay in power. Why do you think China has been slowly but surely progressing to be more open both economically and (yes) politically? It's because that's what the people want.. it's because that's how people are made happier.
Freedom of speech in China still needs work, but it has improved greatly since 1989. Those students who protested DID have an effect. The government isn't going to just agree to all demands outright, but they are slowly implementing the changes that people want.
(Before you say so, yes, there are some areas where the government won't budge, like Tibet. But that doesn't mean they haven't been improving in other areas.)
Re:Blame Clinton (Score:2)
Don't know about Europe, Japan, etc. but after the Toshiba 3 axis NC flap who knows?
As far as I can tell the concept of 'secret technology' is an oxymoron. A fellow I know by the name of Ari Phillips published a working design for an A-bomb when he was a teenager - based on declassified documents he found in various libraries. Created quite a stir, it did.
Can't put the worms back in the can oh no!
Hey, let's put export controls on strong crypto! That will stop the drug runners, commie pinkos, Democrats, tax cheats, the Michigan Militia, Posse Comitatus and all those heathens terrorists from sending coded transmissions!
Yeah, right.
Not their first space shot by any means (Score:2)
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Blinded by mindless Limbaugh-ism... (Score:2)
You're trying to tell us that the Chinese spent all that time pilfering secrets from America's top-secret government-funded research laboratories, and the only secrets they stole were for technology the United States' own space program abandoned almost 30 years ago? What the holy hell are you on about?
Please, go back to making Monica Lewinsky jokes or something. God knows, we could use more of those!
- A.P.
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"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
Re:Uh oh.... (Score:2)
The world is a much more dangerous place because of this, and responsibility for this rests in large part with our brilliant leaders and strategists.
Re:Blame Clinton (Score:2)
Well no... (Score:2)
Re:Sheer xenophobia? (Score:2)
Re:The humans rights violations are irksome (Score:2)
This doesn't exactly stand up to close scrutiny. The nations that kept on with Communism are back to bankrupt stumblebum status, and the one that is now shooting off rockets has adopted free market principles.
A real tragedy of communism is that it has never been attempted in a country with a genuine democratic tradition.
Take a close look at the Allende regime in Chile. This was a real try at Communism in a country with a real democratic tradition. It turned into an economic disaster ending up a with military coup. Just what any democratic nation needs. Fortunately for Chile's sake they are back to a democracy (and a strong economy) again.
Re:Sheer xenophobia? (Score:2)
This is not a racist statement; I'm sure China has many fine scientists, and I'm sure they're capable of doing good stuff. But the espionage is a fact, and the transfer of US technology is a fact. They wouldn't have paid so much for it if they weren't going to put it to use.
D
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Oh please give it up! (Score:2)
Here's a little reality check:
Duh.
I welcome China to the small club of nations capably of contributing to space research. I'm sure they had help in doing so (like everyone else has had) and that they will use it mainly for peaceful purposes (like everyone else, although I head that the US have a lot of .. oh well).
(this is not flamebait, this is well needed insightfulness ... It's scary to see so many americans here who haven't got a clue - isn't Slashdot supposed to be a community of _intelligent_ people?)
Re:Engineering achievment or espionage? (Score:2)
Not much use stealing secrets ... (Score:2)
If you look at China (how many people here have actually visited that place?) you'd still find mud houses (strangely enough sitting next to a modern satellite equiped apartment block) in central Beijing. Their energy needs are still powered by high suphur content coal (one reason why interior cities are so polluted). And too many of their really good technical people leave and/or are snatched up by Western firms. Despite the war-mongering vote chasing by Bush, China is still pretty much an agarian society with much agriculture still being doing by hand. People forget that the US war machine is funded by taxes (40% of GDP?) from realatively high incomes (by world standards) that goes to pay for all those nicy shiny missiles (which have to be replaced after shooting up the reminants of Serbian infrastructure) and associated pork-barrelling. In fact some people would claim that the US economy is still on a war footing.
It is only now that resources are being released back into the civilian sector that you see such advances in communications (CDMA was originally a military application) and software. China's level of technical skill is comparatively poor and while they may be a world power by 2050, at the moment it is not exactly in a state to wave any sticks. IMHO, the US has more worries about trying to keep moral high and designing attractive careers for its own military personnel than worrying about any other army on the earth which they could beat hansomely (given enough warning) except the Isrealiis who have a (justifiably) paranoid and professional army. In other words, if you're Chinese and have a hankering for violence, the best idea is to give up now, emigrate to the US and learn how to play Quake.
LL
Re:Allende's Overthrow (Score:2)
Zontar The Mindless,
Wow, deeply wrong. (Score:2)
Personally, I agree that Allende's regime would probably have been an economic disaster for a number of reasons if he had implemented the policies he had initially proposed, but let's be honest - he didn't fall, he was pushed, before he had any real chance to do much of *anything,* by Pinochet and the CIA.
I'm not an apologist for the the 20th century communist state, by any means, but they myths currently being propagated about the failures of socialism overlook these basic facts:
1. American success is primarly a product of World War Two, not of the inherent value of the capitalist system. George S. Kennan described the situation best - at the end of WW2, the US directly controlled about half of the world's wealth, and the role of US geopolitics was to maintain that precarious imbalance.
2. Given that, the socialist economies of the eastern bloc performed amazing things in light of the ongoing hostility of the US. 3rd world countries that aligned themselves more closely with the US did not do as well, since, sadly, it was their lot to preserve the imbalance mentioned by Kennan, by providing cheap labor and natural resources. The disasters of the socialist economies has more to do with centralization and autocracy than anything else - viz. the disastrous agricultural projects of the 70's in the USSR, largely the result of fantasies of Moscow apparatchiks.
3. The liberalized economies of Latin America are only serving a small fraction of the economy. A recent article in Latin Trade described how the Latin middle class, which American free market boosters had predicted would mushroom over the bast 10+ years of free-market policies, has been in crisis and dwindling, with the wealth of the upper classes expanding (and often moved offshore) and the poor remaining solidly poor. The victory of Hugo Chavez in Venezuela and the renewed vigor of Latin leftists parties in the last couple years, now with growing middle class support (which is always fortunate, since it keeps these parties sensible, the governments democratic, and the economies mixed,) is a result of the dawning realization that the majority of Latin Americans are simply not meant to benefit from the implementation of free market policies.
Atleast get your facts right. (Score:3)
I'm not convinced that societies/government, such as China and the USSR, are capable of such fundamental leaps in the scale of the manhattan project. In fact, The USSR did, after all, feel the need to steal our technology. Very little technological advancement came out of the USSR in its prime. The same can be said for China of yesterday. However, I believe China is making fundamental changes towards a more free and open society and towards capitalism, as they approach this, they will become the next superpower.
Re:Oh please give it up! (Score:2)
I don't see why it's wrong to have pride in one's country. It's true that the U.S. has led the way into space. And no, Europe had nothing to do with it. If that bothers you because you're not a U.S. citizen, then I'm sorry, deal with it. Take pride in the fact that at least your country's leaders don't have harems...
Americans (Score:3)
I live in Hong Kong, and sometimes you people amaze me by how narrow-minded you are.
You guys need to wake up from the American dream and face the reality of the real world.
Go ahead, moderate me down, but you all know its true.
Re:Well, Good news, not excellent news (Score:2)
Re:Oh please give it up! (Score:2)
US space program was built by europeans
Really? A few ex-Nazi rocket scientists captured from Peenemunde do not a manned space program make. It takes many billions of dollars plus a large industrial infrastructure and engineering talent in depth to put together a real manned space program. To come out with the statement that Europeans built the US Space program is flat out nonsense and shows a level of bigotry and idiocy almost beyond comprehension.
If all it took were a couple of scientists, well I would expect that we would see some European flags on the moon, and space shuttles taking off from Sweden. Last time I looked there were none.
and that they [China] will use it mainly for peaceful purposes
Since when has the Chinese government shown this level of enlightenment?
It's scary to see so many americans here who haven't got a clue - isn't Slashdot supposed to be a community of _intelligent_ people?
Intelligent people realize that any effort the size of the US Space Program is not the result of the contribution of a small number of individuals.
It is also scary to see Europeans with supposedly such a cosmopolitan world view stereotyping Americans as clueless. Well, here is a clue regarding American technical prowess: Over 80% of Nobel Prizes awarded since WWII have gone to people working in North America.
And Linux brought them there (Score:3)
Re:Americans (Score:2)
Ever hear of the International Space Station? And how the U.S., Russia, and lots of other countries are working together, combining technology and resources, to make it a reality? Hmm?
Wake up from your own dream, pal. Perhaps I'm biased, but I'd say that there are few, if any, countries who have shared more of their technology and knowledge than the U.S. Here, let me think. Do you drive a car? If not, then you probably take a taxi, bus, or even limousine. Guess where that nice car was invented? Yep, right here in the good ol' U.S. of A. Ever been in an airplane? I'm sure you have. Guess who invented that? The Wright Brothers, also in the U.S. Ever use an "IBM-compatible" PC? Ever eat at McDonald's? Heh, I think you get the point.
Re:Oh please give it up! (Score:2)
don't underestimate China (Score:2)
I think you also overestimate the ability of the US to go it alone. In many fields, the majority of scientists and engineers in the US are foreign born. They come here because the US government lets them, because some places in the US are nice to live, because a lot of their colleagues came here before, because the standard of living is pretty good for them, and because the US government still has some of the most generous government funding for research and development in the world.
Furthermore, the US space program is based on a vigorous exchange of ideas with other countries, often even joint projects. The little bit of information the Chinese may have wrested from some US contractors probably pales in comparison. The only difference is that the US has branded that exchange of ideas "espionage" in the case of China, while it is completely acceptable when it happens, say, between a French contractor and a US space company.
Restrictions on what information can be shared with China may well make sense from a military point of view. But underestimating the Chinese or overestimating the US are both dangerous mistakes and will likely lead to poor policy decisions in the US in the future.
Re:Oh please give it up! (Score:2)
Not hardly. There were and are tens of thousands of engineers in the US space program. The number of Nazis brought over from Peenemunde numbers about 125. To say they built the US space program is nonsense. von Braun did help a lot on booster design, but congressional mistrust of the ex-Nazis also made it hard to get funding for the idea of manned space flight. It is also true the Russian booster design was ahead of von Braun's work.
There were a lot of other flight technology programs going on in the US at that time, independent of the German rocket scientists. The breaking of the sound barrier by Chuck Yaeger is an example. These also made strong contributions to the US space program, culmanating with test flights by the astronauts in the X-15.
Europeans like to think they contributed the lion share in the development of space flight, but they seem to forget it was Robert Goddard who designed and flew the first real rockets.
Manned flight and ICBM's (Score:2)
Yesterday, China put the world on notice that it can now strike anywhere in the world within half an hour.
All the other possibilities for China are minor side effects of this ability. Weapons in space, trips to Mars, etc. are not the focus of developing rocket technology.
Take note: China can put a nuke on your doorstep.
Details on Chinese space program (Score:2)
http://solar.rtd.utk.edu/~mwa de/articles/chidoors.htm [utk.edu]
Cheers,
-j.
Re:How did they land? (Score:2)
The article is a little vague. Did this craft come down on water or dry land?
The "Shenzhou" spacecraft landed in the Inner Mongolia region of China, on land.
They mention parachutes and retro-rockets and resemblance to Apollo.
Actually, Shenzhou far more closely resembles the Russian Soyuz spacecraft than any American vehicle; close enough that many have wondered how much Russian assistance was provided to the Chinese.
Incidentally, Mark Wade's excellent Encyclopedia Astronautica has a great deal of additional information and images of Shenzhou [utk.edu]; perhaps the most comprehensive online resource available.
- Jeff
Re:The humans rights violations are irksome (Score:3)
* Much of the initial rocketry research was done by Nazi scientists working on the V series weapons; if memory serves, a few ended up in the States as researchers instead of war prisoners. That's about as far from the Communist ideal as you can get.
Re:The humans rights violations are irksome (Score:2)
As for point #2, I would have to disagree. Great minds go where their research will be funded and they'll get a good standard of living, which is why Von Braun didn't head over here until AFTER WW2. He (and Mengele and his ilk) didn't seem to mind "enslavement" in the Third Reich, when it came with well-funded labs and cushy paychecks.
There are freer societies than the US, without a doubt. They just can't pay as well.