Interview: Ask the KDE Developers

Gnome has gotten the lion's share of Linux desktop publicity lately. Meanwhile, KDE has been quietly working on KDE2.0, which will hopefully contain several interesting features including a WWW browser called Konqueror and the long-anticipated KOffice, a free office suite that may provide a viable GPL *nix alternative to StarOffice and Applixware. Rather than speculating, we've decided to ask the people who are actually doing the work what they're up to. Post your questions below. Tuesday we'll send 10 - 15 of the highest-moderated ones to selected KDE developers. Answers will appear Friday.

Would've been nice if you'd waited...

[marcus]

At least until I've had a chance to upgrade my SuSe install to KDE 2.0 and exercise it a bit. Then I'd be able to ask some good questions.

KOffice support for MSOffice file formats

[joshv]

One of the biggest limiting factors that stops me from moving to Linux for 100% of my computer use is the poor support for MSOffice file formats in Linux Office apps.

What level of support will KOffice provide for MSOffice file formats? I need nothing less than 100% support for at least Excel and Word file formats. It would also help if the support was entirely transparent - no kuldgy 'export' or 'import' required.

Also, an Exchange mail client would be REALLY nice.

-josh

Future UI

[dylan_-]

My question:
How far do you think the GUI can go from here? What's next in GUI design, and what'll be the next big thing after pointy-clicky?

dylan_-


--

About Konqueror

[Gurlia]

What kind of features will the Konqueror browser have? Do you expect it to be something on the level of Mozilla or better, or will it be less feature-loaded initially?

The old KDE

[TheFitz]

I've been using KDE for a long time now. I tried out Gnome, and what I didn't like about it, is that it is completly bloated. I have taken a look at your screenshots for KDE2.0 and it appears your heading to that same bloated environment. Will you still offer the ability to shut off all those eye candy features, like transparent terminals, to make a slim desktop environment?

A question

[jd]

There are a number of competing environments in X, now, such as KDE and Gnome. In addition to that, there are emerging whole new windowing systems, such as Berlin. Add a sprinkling of GGI, KGI and EvStack for good measure, and you've a real gloopy mixture of ideas and strategies.

In light of this, where do you see the desktop in, say, 5 or 10 years time?

KDE's Legacy?

[chromatic]

What do you think will be the most important legacy from the KDE project? A desktop environment? A framework for applications? KOffice? A bunch of little applications that make life easier (kppp comes to mind)?

--
QDMerge [rmci.net] 0.4!

Magellan

[Anonymous Coward]

How much cooperation (and integration efforts) is there between the KDE 2.0 developers and the Magellan [kdeforum.org] developers? I think Magellan [kdeforum.org] is as exciting to KDE users as KOffice, yet we don't hear much about the former while we do get occaisional news about the latter. Secondly, does the KOffice team have any plans to become a drop-in substitute for MS Office? We are an NT shop right now but have our eyes on Linux on the desktop (already have Solaris in the server room) and this functionality is key to having our people productive cross-platform.

KDE vs The World

[Delphinios]

Do you ever see KDE being workable for both new users and power users? Do you think KDE will eventually be the most popular *NIX desktop? how do you plan on achiving this?

User Interface Engeneering

[musique]

As a user of KDE, one of the first things that I have noticed is that by default, the close button is next to the maximize button. Because KDE is configurable, I put the close button on the left and left maximize on the right.

Although one goal of KDE is to have the user interface immediately familiar to Windows users, what is the project going to do to correct Windows user interface problems, such as putting the close button next to the maximize button? (The problem here is that users will often accidentally press close instead of maximize and vica versa. There are many other examples in Windows, such as the confusing start menu: KDE's is better, etc. Copying the Mac is not the best thing either ex. "Use the Chooser to connect to the network AND select printers." etc.)

Henry Lafleur

QT

[mathb]

When will they drop QT ?

License issues:
* you can't fork QT development.
* you can't make commercial software with QT without having to pay Troll.

Technical issues:
* QT is C++, which makes it harder to program it another language than C++.
* QT imposes (or at least strongly encourages) the use of a preprocessor which painfully reminds of MFC.

Mathias

Re:The old KDE

[Anonymous Coward]

KDE 2.0 is actually smaller and faster than KDE 1.0 (CORBA has been relegated to networked-application only use, COP is used for local comms, among other things)

Yes, you can shut off all those eye candy features.

Actually ,that's a thing that irritates me about people who complain about KDE 1.1 being too bloated - they're invariably running with all the eye candy enabled, on something like a 486...

Gnome/KDE compatibility

[Jon Trowbridge]

What are your thoughts on both the current status and the future of interoperability between KDE and Gnome in areas like components, CORBA, etc.

Do you see the two projects moving closer together, moving further apart, or staying about the same?

Konq?

[Zarniwoop]

What do you plan to support in Konqueror, ie CSS, Java, HTML type, and will it function as a file manager or will KFM still have that function?

KOffice vs. StarOffice

[EricWright]

One of my biggest complaints with StarOffice (outside of the licensing issues) is that StarOffice is one large binary with many different office features. This requires you to load the entire binary into memory (a time wasting process) to utilize a single feature of the StarOffice suite. In light of Linux's appeal of being able to run on a box made up of spare parts found in one's closet, this seems counter to the mission of Linux. Granted, new machines are coming standard with at least 96 MB RAM (typically more), but I still have an old P150 with 32MB that I use from time to time... so, my question is:

Will KOffice treat each of the applications as separate binary executables, or follow the one-large-binary approach of StarOffice?

Eric

Window Managers...

[Kris Warkentin]

I've heard that KDE 2.0 will be using a new window manager KWin rather than KWM. Now I know that KWM is a big fat hog but I haven't been able to find much info about KWin. What are the advantages to this new window manager? Is it an evolution from KWM or a completely new, from the ground up program?

My question

[Asparfame]

This question addresses the relative strengths of KDE and GNOME. Clearly, KDE is a much more stable and efficient environment than GNOME, but in the area of customizability and user-frienlyness, GNOME is still ahead. I was wondering how much action is being taken to make KDE 2 more customizable and user friendly. In particular, I was hoping to see a better implementation of mime types being associated with programs.

Desktop Common Ground

[John Fulmer]

There is KDE and there is Gnome. Competition here is a good then, and both are equally welcome. There are, however, many concerns about software incompatibilites of Gnome apps vs. KDE apps, and that there is a fracturing of inter-program communication standards, since Gnome and KDE apparently handle this differently and may be incompatilble.

Some time back, there were some noises made about the KDE developers and the Gnome developers coming together and finding some common ground that would allow both environments to get (somewhat) get along together.

Has there been any talk between the two camps about standards development and such?

jf

Bloated Hogs!

[cdmoyer]

We've all seen it, Win3.1->Win95->Win98,
Dos1->Dos? Office 95->Office 97... the bloat creaps in invariably with newer versions. Looking at the screenshots of KDE 2.0, I am a little worried. Is there a concerted effort to keep bloat to a minimum and make sure that KDE is available to those without 256Megs of RAM and PIII's?

But I must say, KDE (and GNOME) have made linux useable for the masses(aka. my Mom and Dad). Thanks

Will KDE incorporate OO technology and metaphors?

[brennanw]

As a current OS/2 user who is experimenting with Linux, and as someone who knows many former OS/2 users who have switched to Linux, I'm curious as to whether the KDE development team is at all aware of the Workplace Shell, OS/2's object-oriented desktop. It seems as though the KDE and GNOME projects are concentrating on making Linux familiar to Windows users by emulating Windows's UI... which is nice and all, but you can only go so far by emulating the Windows UI, and after you get that far you'll have the same problems that Windows 9X and NT have.

I've read many posts on Slashdot and (and other places) that lament the abandonment of the Workplace Shell by IBM, and even former OS/2 users lament the lack of any similar Object Oriented UI in the Linux world. So then, my question is "are KDE developers familiar with the Workplace Shell, and are there any plans to incorporate similar features and technologies into KDE itself?"

Mainstream desktop

[Myxx]

There are many issues that continue to retard Linux's acceptance on the mainstream desktop. I have experienced a few that would have stumped a normal user to simply abandon Linux entirely. KDE was a fantastic first step toward allowing others a chance to peek into the world of Linux. In what ways, if at all, will you be addressing the new user with KDE 2.0? Will it be primarily from a documentation point of view, which would facilitate a smoother learning curve for new users? Or will you update many features (Kmail and Knews, and Kppp) so that they can quickly access the Internet in order to gain the valuable knowledge necessary to make the Linux switch?

Either would be a boon!

Myxx

Gnome Compatibility

[Cardinal]

I've used both desktops off and on for the past couple years and I've seen both good and bad features about both desktops. I have no plans to embrace one desktop over the other, so my question will focus on the two interacting.

I don't frequent mailing lists of either camp, but I've heard bits over time such as perhaps a common desktop-entry format. That's nice, but I'm far more interested in, essentially, cooperation whenever possible and practical. This is, IMHO, in keeping with the Linux spirit by allowing more choices. From an end user standpoint, the DnD should be compatible, desktops' respective productivity suites/applications should always be able import/export each other's format, web bookmarks ought to be accessible from both sides, and so on. So my question would be, what sort of plans and/or discussions are going on to facilitate compatibility, rather than forcing users to use either one desktop or the other?

I did

[SpinyNorman]

But I did not shoot the deputy.

More than one question

[Ricardo Casals]

First, let me start off by saying that I think this is a really nice idea. Now off to my qestions.

1. In the 1.x series of KDE, we have seen some nice interaction between the programs and the actual system. However, all that was required was that a program be written in QT, and also maybe use the KDE libraries. My point is that there was not a lot of system interaction and integrity which can be observed in other systems. For example, databases and such didn't exactly have to be standard, KSCD uses its own, and other CD players use THEIR own. Anyhow, will we see a much tighter environment with KDE 2.0, besides what we already know?

2. There was a big problem with what Red Hat did to KDE in it's 6.0 release. Putting it in /usr? I personally like it in /opt. Anyhow, this created a lot of problems for me (and I'm sure it did for lots of programmers), because I tried to install several applications for KDE from RPM, but because they were older (i.e., for Red Hat 5.x) they installed into /opt. Is there going to be some kind of rule or way that such things will be prevented in the future?

3. Will the next KDE be able to read menus from other WMs? Such as E, GNOME, FVWM, etc? I think it is nice that we see such things in other WMs such as GNOME, and it sure would help in organizing user menus. Also, the menu editor in KDE 1.x has been cryptic and difficult. Since there isn't much information on the new system, will it be easyer, more like a tree (yes, Windows-style) of shortcuts or something similar?

4. In the past KDE was not able to interact with applications from other desktop environments very well. For example, if I have X-Chat or Grip (grip is for making MP3s) installed, they won't gain a lot of recognition in KDE because the are gnome apps, same goes for XMMS. Will KDE in the future be able to detect some of these applictions (and will the limit of XPM icons be removed?

That's all! Thanks!

Re:The old KDE

[TheFitz]

Thank you for that information. As long as the eye candy can be turned off (I have a P2-333, just like to have LOTS of power left for apps) then I will be upgrading when it is released. I just got scared when I saw an integrated browser *starts getting bad Windows flashbacks* and other stuff, and got worried.

smb browsing (corel filemanager?)

[zzg]

Will the features from the corel filemanager be part of kde2, in that case, will it be corels code or another implementation?

Something for oldtimers, maybe?

[jw3]

Although I am just a lamer, a biologist, a computer-zero, I got used to a command line interface and I can't live without it. Although I do know that many of KDE programs have command line options, it is sometimes hard to find them out, due to lack of a man-style, traditional documentation.

I'm therefore a little concerned about how KDE handles the de-facto standards for Linux programs - it seems to me, like, saying: "GUI is the most important thing, and we want it to be "a better Windows".'' Well, I don't. I don't want my rc files look like some Win 3.11 ini files :-) so to say. Don't you feel sometimes that you head for the "more-features-more-gadgets" road? I mean, it's nice to have this or that, but I don't want to abandon what I learned, and I don't want Linux abandon Un*x philosophy, which is, in my eyes, slightly different. A tiny example: why doesn't the commandline from kwm have a history / tab completion / anything that could make it seem a little different than dos?

Note, that I'm using KDE every day and I like it very much. I just - I am just concerned, that's all :-)

Regards,

January

Lead or follow...

[festers]

You may not read or even like him, but John C. Dvorak had an interesting article on the future of the desktop called "The Future is DOOMed" (Oct 19, 1999). His point was basically that the idea of putting folders within folders within folders is flawed and illogical. He then tried to speculate what a new model would look like, even bringing in the idea of "3d" file management.

My questions are these: What are your ideas for a "desktop of the future"? Do you agree with Dvorak that the current model is ridiculous and needs to be rethought? If so, what will that look like? (3d??)

Interoperability

[Christopher B. Brown]

• Between the KDE Two Conference [kde.org] material and KDE 2.0 Technology Overview, [kde.org] it appears that there is a proliferation of messaging systems.

  It is evident that the C++-based CORBA options are pretty slow, and thereby not acceptable for mass use; barring that, has there been any consideration of using a messaging system that is in use elsewhere, so as to both have evidence that it works, as well as a reduction in the proliferation of new APIs?

  What comes to mind are:

  • Lightweight Distributed Objects (LDO), [casbah.org] submitted as an IETF [ietf.org] draft, and
  • HTTP-SOAP, [ietf.org] also an IETF draft
• Has any consideration been made of using some of the configuration libraries and data formats already available, such as:
  • ACAP, [imap.org] which has an IETF draft [ietf.org]
  • libPropList [windowmaker.org] which is used by GnuStep and OpenStep [gnustep.org] as well as by WindowMaker. [windowmaker.org]
  • Ted Tso's .ini file reader?

It is such a shame when new formats have to be designed and managed, when debugged code already exists to implement these sorts of things.

C++ only?

[Stiletto]

Will there be language bindings for developers who would rather use other languages when developing KDE apps?

What hardware are you targeting?

[Otter]

When designing KDE, what is the minimal hardware quality you expect it to run comfortably on? Is it currently available low-end, one year old low-end, three year old low-end...?

KDE v. GNOME

[TheGreek]

Has the long-standing flamewar between KDE and GNOME helped to motivate development of a better product, or has it just made you annoyed at the community at large?

The QPL vs the GPL, / Drag and Drop issues

[Travoltus]

I have some questions. How does KDE plan on reconciling the differences between the QPL and the GPL? Source modifications apparently can only be released in the form of patches, and Stallman says it is incompatible with the GPL. Also, what are the terms of the rumored version 2.0 of the QPL? Or is there even such a thing?

Also, will KDE 2.0 have the ability to drag and drop objects between KDE/non-KDE applications? I keep hearing about an old drag and drop protocol in X, but I never see any apps actually using it in any way I can tell. KDE does it with kfm but I'd like to, say, drag a mp3 over to koffice and have it embedded, or to kmp3/xmms/gqmpeg and have it load up automatically. :) Is this possible?


thanks

Re:Konq?

[Macka]

I'd like to throw my weight behind this one, as I'd like
to know what web standards Konqueror is aiming for as
well.

Macka

KMail progress?

[abischof]

KMail seems to be progressing along nicely. Along with Spruce [xtorshun.org] and others, KMail seems to be one of the better mailers for Linux. However, from using Windows, I still look for a mailer similar to Eudora [eudora.com]. Yes, I know there's XFMail [slappy.org], but its interface is kinda dated :(.

So, are there any plans to add a Eudora-like mode to KMail, or to create a Eudora-like mailer for KDE?

Alex Bischoff
---

Is it really a viable GPL office suite?

[jelwell]

It's still based on a non-GPL toolkit set... With that in mind is there any move to switch over to a GPL licensed toolset (Gtk comes to mind). Or are there discussions with Troll Tech to have them release a GPL'ed version of QT?

License Issues

[ReadErr]

What's your opinion on the never-ending License Wars around KDE (the QPL/GPL incopatibility etc)?

Confused users

[gupg]

When I first came across Gnome and Kde, I was very confused about why there are 2 seemingly similar "free" efforts, why a lot of the linux community supports Gnome (since it is not based on QT), why instead of everyone getting behind one project and making sure we roll out something formidable together, there were 2 fragmented efforts. However, do you think that this competition/rivalry is actually healthy for the development of *good* window system ? Do you think that (unix-illiterate) consumers will be confused ? It seems that it is easy to spread FUD by saying that this will lead to several linux X application/API fragmentation .. we know thats bull but Tom, Dick, Harry and Sally may believe it.

Kapps not under KDE

[gorilla]

What support will there be for running Koffice & the other apps under other window managers?

Swappable windows managers is one reason why X has remained fresh all of these years, and I'd hate to be commited to one just to use a particular application.

KDE browser

[HeatherMax]

There's been some mention of a new KDE browser effort in the press recently. This is great, as the browser is such an integrated component of KDE and yet the current one doesn't support (e.g.) authentication.

Was there any consideration given to using Gecko as the rendering engine for this?

I'm using mozilla (M11) to post this, and the rendering engine seems pretty much all there now, in fact there's enough working that I find the browser side more stable than Netscape (although not always as functional).

Also, on the endless KDE / Gnome / just a WM choice: I have tried KDE and Gnome both, and found that the tight browser integration caused too many problems for me and I consequently switched to Gnome where the browser isn't so tightly integrated.

I still find myself using a 'KDE' application for building web pages however (webmaker) and that works just fine under Gnome. I've looked at other KDE applications and found that they don't work so well under Gnome though. Why is this? I'd love to see KOffice work OK for me :-)

Are these non-working applications using more features provided by the KDE window manager, or some other part of KDE that I don't see?

Thanks,

Re:A question

[Travoltus]

actually given the swift evolution of computers I would say major changes will come, or will need to come, in about 1-2 years. By then I think we can expect fully consistent drag and drop support, as well as anti aliased fonts and more advanced transparency (for all you transparent rxvt freaks out there :). Of course the other, minor things should be ironed out by then, such as theme pack design utilities, and menus that can be placed anywhere in the program window. I would not cry if KDE made a windows/internet explorer system out of konqueror, for the desktop. I like drag and drop and I like the ease of use of windows, with the power of linux. I also see audio and video editing applications coming to the desktop (no doubt a lot of it being commercial), as well as a LOT of games. :)

Exchange mail client

[Tim Macinta]

Also, an Exchange mail client would be REALLY nice.

You should check out Fetchmail [tuxedo.org]. Although I've never used it with an Exchange server myself, the FAQ says that it supports Exchange servers [tuxedo.org]. The beauty of Fetchmail is that it lets you use practically any mail client with practically any mail server. I started using fetchmail because MIT's mail servers use KPOP which very few mail clients support, and fetchmail supported it beautifully. I use Netscape Messanger to read and write my email, but practicaly any other mail client that runs on Linux will also work with Fetchmail (as it uses the standard mail spool).

As a nice added bonus, Fetchmail can transparently check multiple mail accounts at different intermittent intervals. So now I can check my ISP mail account, my main mail account, and my work mail account on a regular basis without having to think about it. When I used to live in the world of Windows I only checked my ISP account about once a month because nobody ever sent me mail there because I never gave out the address. Well, one day my ISP sent mail there because the credit card they had on file for me had stopped working (my bank had issued me a new card for some reason and cancelled my old card before its expiration date). Anyway, I didn't get this email in time because I checked my account there so infrequently and so one day my dialup account with that ISP just stopped working. The moral of the story is that if I had been checking that account regularly I could have prevented the problem. Now that I use fetchmail this problem will never happen again because I've set up fetchmail to regularly check all of my accounts and it takes zero time on my part.

That was just a fringe benefit, though, and it would probably be a fringe benefit to you as well. The main point is, Fetchmail can be used with Exchange servers.

Other windowmanagers and KDE support?

[abischof]

Out of curiosity, how interested have the developers of other [windowmaker.org] windowmanagers [enlightenment.org] been in adding KDE support? And, what kind of assistance do you generally give them -- just access to the KDE specs, or more than that?

PS The two links I included are just examples; I don't mean to single those two out ;).

Alex Bischoff
---

Re:QT

[Arandir]

"* you can't fork QT development."

You have to do it in a different way, but it can be done. But is there a need out there to fork Qt in the first place? I don't see any of the other free GUI kits forking.

"* you can't make commercial software with QT without having to pay Troll."

Bull! You're thinking of the old license, not the new-and-improved Free QPL license of Qt 2.x+.

"* QT is C++, which makes it harder to program it another language than C++."

There are good C bindings for Qt. But OO is one of Qt's strongest points. Why abandon it when with just a half dozen lines of code I can inherit a Qt widget to do what I need it to do?

"* QT imposes (or at least strongly encourages) the use of a preprocessor which painfully reminds of MFC."

Then you've never programmed in both Qt and MFC. I have, and there is no comparison. With three simple macros you eliminate 99% of the cruft that goes into MFC code. Trying to code in MFC without the ClassWizard(tm) is excrutiatingly painful. But I can do all of my Qt coding out of vi with no problem.

Re:A question

[UnixMan]

A reason I do not like Gnome is because it looks childish, with too many ugly theme colors and ugly icons. It is slow, it crashes, eats a lot of memory. KDE, on the other hand, it has been a more serious project, more CDE look alike, suitable for a professional desktop or to manage a server. Looks like that the upcoming KDE 2.0 will come spoiled due the unnecessary graphics/skins/crap. The "beta" preview of 2.0 really made me sick. Do you call that pretty? It stinks, imho.

I hope some KDe dev reads in here. Keep KDE clean, fast and functional!

Re:KOffice support for MSOffice file formats

[JJore57]

Ok, that's a valid stance as long as you're a dial up user. I (among others) need to have interoperability in a corporate network. Specifically I could use Linux for work if I could use Lotus Notes, Lotus Sametime and an office package that is transparently compatible with Office 97. Without those applications I'm relegated to using WINE or just booting into NT.

Part of the issue is that my job is Lotus Notes development so I'm not able to use a different client. Other people are going to have a similar position with MS Office and will need something that will provide the same functions using MS Office file formats.

Josh

Core desktop problem: printing

[twdorris]

I believe that one of the MAJOR problems facing *any* UNIX system wishing to compete on the desktop front is application level support for a printing subsystem as well as low level printer driver support. It's been a while since I've coded X-apps, but from what I recall, there was no way to "cleanly" handle print functionality. By that I mean, I always ended up with one routine to draw to the screen and a completely separate routine to write my PostScript output for printing. I believe this may still be the case give how many different print interfaces I see in various applications running under Linux. No two user interfaces are the same and no two produce similar results. To an end user (at least at the desktop level), this is extremely frustrating and it's one of the main reasons I *have* to keep Windows around. I need to print things reliably and with a high degree of quality and there's just no clean, easy way to do that under Linux or any other UNIX OS for that matter.

As for device driver support, I've used Ghostscript extensively in the past and while it's impressive, it's a FAR, FAR cry from being comparable to a vendor-supplied, Windoze-based driver equivalent with regard to quality of output and reliable printing. As an example, try printing a high resolution image to an Epson Photo 700 under Windows and then do the same under Linux using Ghostscript. The two are completely different and it's not in favor of Ghostscript.

All this leads me to my question for you guys. I use KDE along with KWM as my working environment at home. How do you see printing functionality being affected or enhanced by KDE and do you have any suggestions for how to improve upon the current state of things? Is there a huge re-write of printing support under *nix systems that I don't know about and that most applications these days are being coded to? I strongly suspect so, because there's no way in hell Linux will be able to compete in the desktop market if every application is required to write out postscript data manually and/or include printer drivers for every printer known to man. Both Windows and Java take an approach to printer support that ties printing code to display code and I believe something similar is *really* needed under Linux and/or X11. Do you guys have a feel for what the future holds with regards to printer support under *nix systems? Having coded a complete office package yourselves, I'm sure you have a pretty good idea... :-)

Re:KOffice vs. StarOffice

[kijiki]

You do know that Linux loads executable pages from disk as they are used, so most of the code for the parts of the program you're not using isn't using up memory. Its called demand paging, and every decent OS designed in the modern era has it.

why another browser?

[infoflux]

I understand the reasoning for KOffice, since Star Office isn't open source. However, what is the motivation for developing another browser? It seems to me that Netscape already has become the standard for *Nix platforms as far as web browsers go, and it suprised me that the KDE team was working on a browser now that Netscape has an open source project. Is browser/file manager integration (which I assume will equal functionality similar to Windows/Internet Explorer on windows without the crashes :-) ) that important? Is there some special niche that Konq will fill, similar to how Opera focusses on being speedy and lightweight? In short, what is the justification for re-creating the wheel?

Re:KOffice vs. StarOffice

[Ricardo Casals]

Well last I saw/heard, whatever. They were all different programs, thus different executables, such as "kword", "kspread", etc. If things have changed in the new version(s) I don't know. But I don't see why they would have it any other way, why start kword with something like "koffice -word" instead of just "kword"? Personally I think that they are still multiple.

Re:Is it really a viable GPL office suite?

[jcs]

The authors of The GIMP needed a toolkit to build the program, thus GTK was born. Maybe a new toolkit can be built for the office suite and be open enough to be used in many other applications, the same way GTK has.
--
Joshua C. Stein
Superblock Information Systems

Re:About Konqueror

[mattdm]

More importantly, will Konqueror strive to be 100% standards-compliant? I have no problem with multiple competing browsers, but if it's not going to be as good as Mozilla in this respect, why not just embed the Mozilla renderer?

--

Completeness of KRASH?

[kdgarris]

I have a couple of questions about the upcoming KRASH release:

- How "complete" feature-wise will KRASH be compared to the actual KDE 2.0 release?

- Will it be possible to run KRASH on the same machine with KDE 1.1.x without conflicts?

I know KRASH is supposed to be a developer's-only release, but I would like to try it just to get a preview of KDE 2.0.

Video playback

[harmonica]

I see video file playback software as an important application for a modern desktop system because there is more and more video content offered on the net, from low bitrate news clips to huge MPEG-2 movie trailers.

Unfortunately, there is no playback software for two of the three important formats ASF (specs [microsoft.com]),
QuickTime (site [apple.com]), only Real is available (with some flaws in the player, correct me if I'm wrong).

Remember that Star Wars trailer using the Sorenson codec and how nobody could see it without a Windows box or a Mac? I'd like to know if there are any efforts underway to create a replacement format (very hard) or convince the creators (one of them Microsoft, but hey, they're trying to establish a standard with ASF, so they at least have to pretend they're cooperating) to offer a player which can be integrated into X / KDE. The xanim [buffalo.edu] author does his best, but the enterprises won't give him specs on their newest codecs.

BTW, anyone here know about an MPEG-2 player (for unencrypted movie trailers)?

Re:KOffice support for MSOffice file formats

[dimator]

For internal formats, I think the koffice team has chosen an XML based system. See http://lists.kde.org/?l=kd e-koffice&m=93052296812210&w=2 [kde.org] for a long thread about the formats. Also, the FAQ [kde.org] talks about it a little.

I emailed one of the koffice guys a long while ago about MSOffice file format interoperability. He said that the framework was in place to allow modular file format conversions, so MSOffice file formats would be OK. This was a while ago though, so I would like your question answered by the developers, in case they changed their strategy/made progress on this subject.


-----------------
Your attention please everyone, if I could just say a few words... I would be a better public speaker.

KDE 2.0 Licensing

[Arandir]

There were rumours floating around that KDE2.0 or KOffice would be licensed under the Artistic License as opposed to the GPL. However, the CVS tree shows that most stuff is still under the GPL.

Considering that Redhat once declared distributing KDE to be illegal, and that Debian would include Qt but not KDE, all because of a perceived GPL incompatibility, it seems that the licensing aspects would be very important.

What are the core developers views on KDE licensing? Will we see major components released under the Al, QPL or other license? Is the compatibility problem even an issue with the team?

In other words, considering the GPL/QPL intermix, and paraphrasing RMS, is it wrong to share KDE with my friend?

KMath improvements?

[InsomniacsDream]

I write a lot of scientific papers and presentations with tons of equations. Normally, I use LaTeX for all my stuff, and it works great. However, there are some people (like my supervisor) who are hesitant to use something like LaTeX because of the steep learning curve. They prefer to use GUI-based stuff like Word and Powerpoint because they are simpler to use and require less startup time. I am trying to convince them that there are similar tools in Linux but they seem somewhat unconvinced. I have played with KMath a bit, but from what I see, it still has a long way to go. I appreciate the complexity of this problem, but I think one of the things preventing me from recommending KOffice and/or KPresenter is the lack of a full-featured equation editor. If KMath were to move more towards something like MathType, a lot of people from the scientific and academic community would find KOffice a more suitable project. For all I know, this may already be improved in KDE 2.0. I can't wait to find out! Right now, I think StarOffice has the best equation editor for Linux that I've seen even though it is still a bit awkward to use.

My question is basically:

What work is being done to make KMath a more powerful equation editor (more like MathType from the Windows world)? Is it likely that there might be some integration with LaTex or LyX? I would like to see it possible to embed LaTeX-like code in the document to make prettier equations. Right now, I use latex2html to make .png images of all my equations, and then I embed these images into my KOffice/KPresenter document. This is somewhat of a roundabout way of doing this, and I wonder if there is a better way to get the same results with less work? Will KDE 2.0 make this any easier?

Re:Video playback

[Ricardo Casals]

QuickTime is available , I thought it was in xanim but since you mentioned it, maybe another player? I know I was looking at one that had AVI, MPEG (early stages, no sound), and QuickTime... *shrug*

A couple of questions...

[PimpBot]

(Sorry if any of these are repeats)

- Are there any tutorials for QT/KDE programming?
- Is there anyway Joe User can help with KDE2?
- Are there any aspects of GNOME you wish KDE had?
- Many aspects of the KDE interface have a WinNT look and feel(imho). Any particular reason why you went with that style as to MacOS or BeOS?
- Q3Test or UT? ;-)

Thanks for a great UI...
--------------------------

What are the preferred GUI controls?

[Chris Johnson]

In the ideal KDE environment, what percentage of user input is expected to be:

• Selecting menu entries, popup or root or Start
• Entering text in text entry areas
• Clicking a small button with an icon on it
• Clicking a larger button with text on it
• Radio buttons, checkboxes, listboxes
• Keyboard shortcuts (combinations like meta-*)
• Editing a dotfile

Which of these control types need to be made the sole control for a type of functionality? (i.e. you tend not to have text input that can also be done by 27 radio buttons for each letter, but often icon buttons _are_ doubled by menu items, sometimes with a keyboard shortcut also available.) Which if any do you feel represents the preferred KDE method of doing things, and which if any are discouraged?

Re:Exchange mail client

[rcw-work]

fetchmail does not and does not plan to support the Microsoft Exchange Server wire protocol. The link you posted points to using fetchmail with Exchange's POP3 support.

However, POP3 does not an Exchange Server make, in fact most admins don't enable support for it because of bugginess. Exchange users commonly keep mailboxes (with dozens of subfolders including calendar and contact data) on the server. Compare it more with IMAP instead.

The calendar/contact/task data is relatively standardized - dozens of software vendors [imc.org] ship with vCard [imc.org] support in one way or another. The FIPS PUB 98 standard used by Microsoft Mail (yeah, not exchange, I know, but very similar) is a NIST standard, and although available, I can't find it as I write this post. I've looked through it earlier and it's very nondescript (every message must contain a Subject line, a To line, a From line, etc).

The info we need is how this information is accessed. We know it's TCP RPC-based, but anything further will either have to come from Microsoft or be reverse engineered.

That, and the Personal Folders file format would be very useful (we're all itching to find out how they implemented "Compressable Encryption" :)

AVI, QuickTime only containers

[harmonica]

Formats like AVI and QuickTime (and ASF if I'm right) are only a container for different compression methods. Usually, the latest (= best) ones are not supported by non-proprietary software because there is no documentation available. One example is the Sorenson codec I mentioned. Xanim does support QuickTime, but not this interesting codec.

Whither Magellan?

[Ledge Kindred]

I don't follow KDE development extremely closely, but it seemed to me that details about Magellan [kdeforum.org] popped into sight very suddenly and vanished again nearly as quickly. Considering the power and capabilities detailed in the article linked above, this sounds like a major component to having a devastatingly powerful desktop based on KDE2, since an easy-to-use EMail client like Magellan would fulfill one of the two basic "killer apps" I imagine an average user would want from a desktop environment. (The other being a decent web browser, which KDE2 looks to also provide with Konqueror.) Is development of Magellan still on track? Can we reasonably expect it to live up to expectations? Or is this considered an "outside" application to what the core KDE2 functionality is expected to provide and therefore outside of what you can comment on?

-=-=-=-=-

Performance & Video Realistate

[Slicker]

Two Questions: 1. Can I expect KDE 2.0 to be significantly faster and less resource hungery that previous versions? To everyone I've demonstrated KDE to (unless on P-450s), those problems have been immediately noticeable...especially when compared with Win95 on the same machine. 2. Has there been any re-work to resize dialogs to accomodate at least 800x600 resolutions? Many people still prefer that resolution, because they hate tiny fonts and icons... I don't like the large dialogs even on 1024x768, cause I'm trying to do as much as I can on my desktop without having to flip screens constantly.. Or are these two issues unmentioned or ignored? --Matthew

Re:KDE v. GNOME

[Travoltus]

what flamewar? KDE and GNOME claimed to be working together on such things as Drag and Drop. If you mean there is a flamewar between the users of GNOME and KDE, you have a point. But the users are not the product/product design team. Take me, for instance. I'm just an armchair critic. I've never contributed a line of code to KDE or GNOME, though I wish I knew enough that I could. Any flame war I start or get into (or avoid :) is indicative of me as a user, not KDE or GNOME themselves.

Which isn't to deny the validity of your underlying issue; many Linux users need to read the Linux Advocacy HOWTO at http://sunsite.unc.edu/mdw/HOWTO/mini/Advocacy.htm l so we don't become like the *** crowd. :)

How indispensible is QT?

[Lupulack]

Perhaps this is a re-hash of previous questions, but with the many questions about QT, it's appropriateness in a GPL'd project etc, I wondered how much KDE NEEDS QT, IE would KDE require a major re-write to support some future GPL'd library? Or is it modular enough to abstract away the particular GUI lib?

Do you have any thoughts on....

[moonboy]

Do you have any thoughts on what the "next" desktop environment might be like beyond a windowing environment? Would it be possible to have any other type of environment?

----------------

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." - Albert Einstein

Re:A couple of questions...

[PimpBot]

One more question....does KDE2 now allow you to use double clicks to start/open instead of a single click?

Thanks again...
--------------------------

Konquerer

[crispy]

I was very excited to hear that the 2.0 release would contain a web browser. I and many other linux users are completely fed up with the current applications available to us. Is Konquerer going to be a full-fledged browser supporting all the technologies that make the web work (CSS, Java, Javascript, XML, etc)? In other words can I replace Netscape with this browser or will I still need to load it up for some sites? If it's not fully-featured now then will it be soon and is it uasable as-is? (unlike Mozilla... bah I know I'm going to get it for that one)

<SIG>
I think I lost my work ethic while surfing the web. If you find it, please email it to [e-mail].
</SIG>

Convergence: Gnome and KDE

[jake_the_blue_spruce]

I know you guys have been working with Gnome to standardize a lot of things, but do you ever forsee a time when there will be either a standard API or abstraction layer that will allow application developers to write one app that will be either KDE or Gnome depending on the user's setup?

Re:Confused users

[Skeezix]

If you have used GNOME and KDE before you know that while there are similarities in the desktop environments, there is much that is different. Open Source Software is often written initially to scratch a developer's personal itch. It makes a lot of sense that there would be multiple desktop projects going on. Incidentally, KDE and GNOME aren't the only ones, they're just the most publicized ones. XFce [xfce.org] and Enlightenment [enlightenment.org] are two examples of projects to create a complete desktop environment for X.

I love the choice that GNU/Linux provides. I love offering my friends these same choices when I introduce them to the GNU/Linux operating system. I have multiple sessions configured from gdm. Do you want to use E + GNOME, E standalone, KDE, KDE with E or Window Maker, GNOME + Sawmill, Window Maker standalone, etc...you get the idea. I love it.

The other benefit of having "competing" projects is forced improvement. KDE can borrow ideas from GNOME and vice versa. And the code is there for referrence. With time, you'll see a greater interoperability between KDE and GNOME, rather than a further splintering.

--Jamin Philip Gray
[e-mail]

Here's the Really important questions

[JSC]

Those questions about OO technology and QT and MS-Office alternatives are all well and good, but let's get down to the important stuff...fun and games!

What, if any, new games are going to be included with KDE 2.0?

How about putting in an Xscreensaver interface like Gnome? The .kss stuff is all well and good but there's a world of eyecandy out there that we can't easily use in KDE.

Gnumeric vs KSpread

[spboulet]

I'm a KDE user who likes Gnumeric. How would you compare the two in terms of features and stability? If Gnumeric is much more advanced than KSpread, would the KDE organization consider integrating it into KOffice as the default spreadsheet app?

mobile & special needs users

[shapeshifter]

I'm being funded to help make an office package useable by blind and visually impaired (V.I.) users, and I haven't chosen which office environment to work with yet. Making software useable by V.I. users is a very similar problem to adapting software for mobile computer use, where you have limited screen real estate (handheld devices), and possibly no screen at all (as in a car - or as in StarTrek). In the past, people have tried to help V.I. computer users by writing special software that lays on top of Windows programs to try to re-interpret the visual interface into speech output. This is not an easy task - and results in a less than perfect solution. GPL gives the disabled community an opportunity to alter software for a variety of environments from the inside out. The added flexibility only enhances the desktop users experience - for example, a better keyboard and speech interface. Personally, I don't like having to move my hands from the keyboard to the mouse and back. As a sighted user, I would still to do some basic computing while on a roadtrip - such as reading, writing and browsing. It's not as complex as it sounds - the experience of blind computer users could be helpful to get us there. From a philosphical point of view, it shouldn't matter what input and output device a user wants to use (speech? sign language?) - software should support these alternatives from the core. What I would like to know is - what is KDE's philosophy on disabled and mobile users? Have you had any interaction with users with special needs who want to access the KDE interface? I think this would be an area KDE could attract some really good press - MSWin and StarOffice do little in this area. (StarOffice does nothing, and MS thinly supports disabled users - only enough to keep from being sued under the Americans with Disabilities Act). I think an open source project like KDE could attract some very talented disabled developers who need useable software! Aaron Leventhal

What's in it for the rest of us?

[Tom Christiansen]

A great deal of energy and attention is being put into taking over the space currently dominated by Microsoft, the non-programmer's appliance-style computer needs. To this end, we see and endless stream of requests for strong intercompatibility with Microsoft programs. We see demands for a system that is immediately usable to Windows users, one that is understandable within two minutes of orientation, which requires no active administration, and is geared to suit the needs and expectations of the non-technical user.

Here are seven distinct question areas that follow from that:

1. Is this supposed to be simply a free rewrite of what is essentially existing Windows functionality, or is there something in it for the rest of us? If so, what kind of thing can we get excited about? What sort of consideration has been taken to accommodate the long-time, professional Unix user? What kind of compatibility is there for existing Unix programs and formats, and for the entire Unix mindset? Will we have to learn completely new editors, mailers, newsreaders, web browsers, and pagers, or are there hooks that respect the Unix users existing preferences in these areas? Does it feel like an integrated part of Unix, or something stuck on the side and completely apart? Is the default look and feel something that Unix users will find repulsive just because it reminds them too much of Microsoft? Do you use Windows widgets by default?
2. What support will there be for the handicapped and disabled? Will there be keyboard interfaces, or only mouse-based ones? Both the visually-impaired and the RSI-agonizing benefit greatly from having the option of employing a non-mouse, textual interface. Will there be keyboard-based, tab-style completion features? What about fully programmable completion at the toolkit and/or application level? Is there a way to do a quick text search through all menus so we don't have to do the same thing repeatedly? For example, the entire toolkit and window manager could conspire to let META-/ followed by a regexp take you directly to the currently focussed program's particular menu that contained that pattern no many how many mouse clicks deep it was in nested menus, and META-n could take you to the next match, META-N the previous one, etc.
3. Is there any scripting mechanism planned, preferably with a language-neutral API so that we can use bash, perl, guile, tcl, python, javascript, or even some BASIC-style language? Is there going to be anything like Microsoft's ActiveScripting stuff? How about anything analogous to Gtk/Perl?
4. What non-Windows systems have you evaluated in mining existing technology for ideas? How about XEROX Star or OS/2 or Amigas? Have you ever looked at AVS, the scientific visualization graphical shell? It has (or had, when I long ago looked at it) a very cool graphical representation in which datasets and filters get connected in by pipelines in a visual rather than a CLI way, which is sometimes easier to produce. IF you haven't seen it, think of what it might be to combine drag-and-drop with connect-the-dots.
5. What usability tests have you run? Were your subjects only Windows users, or did you try non-computer users as well? What about usability tests that involved professional, long-time Unix programmers?
6. In what ways do you see Gnome feeding ideas back into KDE, or vice versa? Is there anything from Gnome you've specifically rejected, or specifically incorporated? Same thing with Enlightenment.
7. What is the state of the documentation? Is it externally accessible, searchable, typesettable, and printable? Does each command have complete documentation of its calling interface, whether CLI or otherwise, and is this documentation externally accessible, or most you tediously step through help buttons in the program itself? What about configuration matters? Are they completely documented, or are you forced to read existing examples for a clue? Finally, what about the library functions that programmers will be using? Does each function have its own complete documentation, such as the fine work you see in glibc? Or are you forced to read existing programs to guess how things work instead of having a formal specification and description? Is all this documentation integrated into one place, or must you hunt all over for it?

Well, that's enough for now. :-)

Component Architectures

[Jon Pryor]

Given that, for the inprocess case at least, you've abandoned CORBA for shared memory in KDE 2.0, have you considered alternative component technologies such as COM, the Component Object Model?

Aside from the fact that it was created by Microsoft, I've found it to be a rather useful. It's fairly efficient for inprocess use (the overhead is only that of a C++ virtual function call, assuming "client" and "server" are in the same "apartment" (in COM-speak), and is language-independant -- assuming you can get a compiler to create the appropriate C++ virtual function tables. GCC-2.95 just happens to be such a compiler. (You need to use __attribute__((com_interface)) in the class declaration.)

It can also be extended to work cross-process and cross machine by implementing proxy and stub DLLs/shared libraries.

The only downside is that there is no free/open-source COM library implementation that operates under Linux. However, it's fairly simple to implement a subset that works on all platforms -- Mozilla does this through it's XPCOM libraries for all inter-object communication.

Just wondering if any other choicse were explored in the decision to drop CORBA...

- Jon

Re:Will KDE incorporate OO technology and metaphor

[zander]

If you will, could you tell us, what is this OO technology you are referring to.

From a programmers POV the KDE gui is 100% Object Oriented since it is written in C++.

From a users POV, the embedding of applications (when I click a picture-icon a viewer is started and embedded inside the requesting appl) is nothing short of a OO methaphor. The way of working is indeed based on the workbench methaphor which is around since Xerox started that..

Window Managers and KDE 2.0

[Cuchullain]

I understand that BlackBox and Windowmaker are currently KDE "aware", but are you working with the people who maintain them to make them more interoperable with KDE 2.0?

Which direction are you guys headed with Kwin, other than the stated purposes of skinning and cutting down on the memory load?

Finally, have you considered(and please forgive me if this is asinine) setting up a way to install a kind of KDE "Lite" that uses fewer resources and has less core function, but runs on older and less powerful machines?

Cuchullain

Re:What hardware are you targeting?

[zander]

Low end workstations upto high-end machines will run KDE, a minimum of 64Mb has been said, 800x600 a minimum for real work (are not requerments, but will work best).

For the high-end market; multi threading of the software is being done, 3D screensavers/games are considered. CAD applications are being made in KDE.

A very exciting market of stuff!!

Re:KOffice vs. StarOffice

[zander]

I am definitely not an expert on the subject, but since I have the software installed here goes:

Kword is an application of 19Kb.

There are a lot of libraries with every part of koffice, and the kword application can load a library of killustrator to show an inlined document. Kind of loading-on-demand-on-steroids.

Printing is indeed an issue

[Christopher B. Brown]

The Qt Painter Class [troll.no] provides support for printing on various devices, notably widgets, Windows metafiles, and Postscript printers.

That appears to be the Qt Way of handling printing.

It is interesting to contrast with other methods that have been used historically and recently:

• NeXtStep, and now GNUstep, [gnustep.org] use Display Postscript [net-community.com]
• Adobe has restricted future access to commercial DPS, and hence Apple OS-X plans to use PDF as a display substrate to replace DPS.
• The GNOME Project has created an imaging model [gnome.org] that seems to parallel Display Postscript that, as the GNOME Canvas, [gnome.org] is also displayable.
• Less well-known is libprint [marktwain.net]

It is not clear whether or not KDE is using the QtPainter facility, or whether there is need for something like GNOME Canvas...

Re:KOffice support for MSOffice file formats

[Hard_Code]

XML is the way to go. It is a lot better suited for describing arbitrary data. It is a lot easier to go from an XML format to any other format, than from one proprietary format to another.

Internationalization

[Tom Christiansen]

(Darn, I forgot one.)

What kind of support do you provide for localization and internationalization? Do the toolkit itself and all applications support locales (eg, ISO-8859-?), or is everything in American English? What support do you provide for real message catalogues? How much support Unicode for is there? Considering the profound differences--often conflicting and contradictory--in pictorial interpretations seen between diverse cultures, what are you doing to do to bring the idea of message catalogues into the graphical space of those funny little bitmapped icons and buttons? How easy will it be for an entire site to change the default configuration to use an alternate set of text labels, text messages, and graphical devices (buttons, etc) that make sense in its culture? What tools do you provide to developers and to administrators to facilitate this?

Re:C++ only?

[AMK]

There already are; the Python/Qt bindings [kde.org] are very nice, for example, but few people seem to have started writing KDE applications in anything other than C++.

Re:QT

[jd]

I don't want to get involved in a private war, but here are some "free" GUI's controlled by a company. For your information, naturally.

• X11 - The Open Group
• Xlib - The Open Group
• OpenLook - Sun
• Java AWT - Sun
• Java Foundation Classes - Sun
• Java Swing - Sun

Would you say that the worst excesses of Troll Tech's licence were more or less palatable than the Open Group's attempts to hijack X11R6.4 work, via it's licence change?

If Troll Tech seem to be misbehaving, in some way, I hope you can at least see that some of the alternatives out there are a whole lot nastier.

Hopefully, Troll Tech can head into grounds that Sun and the Open Group fear to tread, becoming more open with time, not closed. However, I can't see them being overly thrilled with the idea, if all they get is pelted with rocks every time they make a move someone doesn't like. Under those conditions, diving for cover and staying put would seem the more likely.

Only politicians and dictators win unilaterally.

Re:QuickTime for Linux here

[harmonica]

Again, I know about this. But it can't play Sorenson, the codec that most QT material comes in. From the website itself:

Be aware of one thing: Quicktime for Linux won't read any of the movies you download from the internet. Quicktime is a wrapper for many different kinds of compression formats. What you know as "Quicktime 4" is really a distribution of libraries which contain certain compression formats not found in previous versions Quicktime. Regardless of the version number, each Quicktime distribution is able to read and write a basic set of compression formats that you can manipulate on Linux or any system not officially supported by Apple.

Re:Will KDE incorporate OO technology and metaphor

[mangino]

From a programmers POV the KDE gui is 100% Object Oriented since it is written in C++.

Just because something is written in C++ doesn't mean it is object oriented. I'm currently maintaining some C++ code that is not object oriented, and I find it terribly difficult to maintain. On the other hand, just because something is written in C doesn't mean it is not object oriented. I'm a C programmer and I write almost all of my code in an object oriented fashion.

I haven't seen the KDE code, and I am not saying that their code isn't object oriented. I'm just saying the C++ != OO.

Mike
--
Mike Mangino Consultant, Analysts International

Re:why another browser?

[McKing]

Because Netscape sucks ass.

It is a single bloated binary that crashes on a regular basis, and (more importantly) it doesn't follow a large chunk of the CSS, DOM, and DHTML standards. They keep saying "5.0 will fix all that!!" but it isn't even in beta.

Mozilla, while starting to look nice, is still not anywhere near the quality I would expect to use on a daily basis. The latest Milestone release is still very flawed, and what's worse, seems to be heading even more to being Windows-centric than Navigator 4.xx!! I mean come on, it starts a "Profile Manager" to set up a "Profile" for you when you first run it. Um, helllooo!!!! This is Unix, thank you, I already have a Profile, it is called my user account. Just create a ~/.mozilla directory for your settings and cache, and pop up a nice little window telling me so. Also, I tried both the Windows and Linux versions of M11, and the Windows version seemed more "complete", in that portions of the program that would crash the Linux version would work just fine on the Windows version.

Even KFM is a better browser than Netscape, and the Konq rewrite, with the added fully compliant Java/Javascript and CSS/DOM/DHTML standards will blow Mozilla out of the water.

I'm sorry to say this, being a long-time Netscape user (on both Windows and Linux) but Konq has working now what Mozilla will have six months from now, and given Netscape's track record of slowly but surely eroding the functionality and stability of the Unix versions of Navigator/Communicator, I for one will be happy to see Konq come out so that we can really have a decent browser.

Re:Will KDE incorporate OO technology and metaphor

[brennanw]

The technology I'm specifically referring to is the Workplace Shell, OS/2's default UI and an example of a properly implemented OO UI. The Windows 95, 98, & NT4 UI tries to fake an OO desktop, but it's skin-deep at best.

The WPS' "desktop" is the master object... everything else in the UI is a refinement of that object. It is possible to change the attributes of entire parts of the desktop simply by changing parts of one object higher up in the object heirarchy. I know I'm not really explaining this very well... one of the other people in this thread gave a link to a good article explaining how an OS/2 company created a product that didn't contain any executables other than the install program, and I'll reprint that link here:

http://www.byte.com/art/9602/sec16/art1.htm

Among other things that the WPS allows you to do:

full drag and drop: you can push a file onto an application and it'll activate the application appropriately. In other words, push a text file onto a text editor and it will open the file for editing. Push a text file onto a fax icon and it will activate the fax machine (without opening the program first, if the program is truly WPS integrated). Push a text file onto a printer and it will print out the document directly.

Right click on an object and you'll get a context sensitive menu for that object (which may differ from other objects -- i.e., files and folders would have different options because they're used for different "things")

If you create a program link (an iconic representation of an application) and then move the application to a different location in your file structure, the link keeps track of the new location and updates it automatically.

Of course, one of the less useful but more fun aspects of this is the almost infinite ability to cusotize everything. You can give every folder a different background color, a different font, a different bitmap. It's possible to make certain objects conform to one color scheme and other object conform to another color scheme.

Yes, all these things can be done without the benefit of an OO environment, if you hard-code everything individually. But the way the WPS is designed you need only alter parts of some objects, and the changes cascade down through all their child objects. Very nice.

Re:What hardware are you targeting?

[AJWM]

I don't know what the KDE folks are targetting, but I can tell you that I've got a 16 MB, 66MHz 486 here on which KDE (1.1) certainly runs. It's really s-l-o-w to fire up new apps, of course, but it does run. (I'd say 16MB is a minimum, looking at my /proc/meminfo and /proc/swaps. Otherwise you'll really be thrashing.) (Note I don't usually use KDE on it, since it's primarily a server.)

Since KDE 2.0 is supposedly a little leaner, running on that hardware shouldn't be a problem.

KDE & 'Windowsisms'

[Parity]

First of all, I use, and very much like, KDE. However, 1.x at least, is rife with windowsisms, including many that made it into the 'user interface hall of shame' and then were duplicated in KDE. I'm talking mostly about the little utility-apps here, like the file-finder
and such. That's background, now for the question. :)

Is this a temporary situation, or a deliberate KDE 'design goal' to be like-windows? If some developer out there were to find some time outside of work to redo some of them with a new and non-'shame'ful interface, would that be accepted into the codebase, or is it considered that the group already did it 'right' and you only want other kinds of improvements? Is there room for a set of alternate-KDE utility apps, or do you want one true KDE look?
(UI design -is- largely a matter of opinion, so,
if you think KDE's utility apps are already just great, that's fine, but I get the impression that it was just easiest to emulate the windows way on a lot of things.)

--Parity

Re:Just how *easy* will it be?

[Tom Christiansen]

With my experience with GNOME/Enlightenment, I love to play with it, but it takes a lot of tinkering and scrounging for answers through countless FAQ's, mailing lists and (limited) documentation, then searching out and downloading tons of prerequesits before you can install it.

I think most of us who've tried that have had the same sort of depressing experience. There's nothing more frustrating than spending all day downloading and installing a zillion libraries, only to find that not only can you still can't get what you wanted up and running, you've also irrevocably and mysteriously broken random other unrelated programs on your system.

For example, after trying to install a recednt version of ncurses, I find that anything that uses ncurses now dumps core for me like this:

Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
0x2ab6336d in _IO_setvbuf (fp=0x2abfc7e0, buf=0x815a7c0 "", mode=0, size=2064) at iosetvbuf.c:92

This includes essential programs like talk and lynx. And because this is Linux, I can't just type

# cd /usr/src/usr.bin/talk
# make install

to fix the problem. Curses! Foiled again!

Remarkably enough, I did finally get enlightenment working. Considering that the behemoth links against twenty-one (yes, that's 21, 3*7) different libraries (try running ldd against it), I'm pretty surprised it's working. Well, somewhat working. It refuses to call up the Gnome configuration tool anymore after the 0.16 upgrade. The RPMs ate my program, again, Teacher. I didn't touch it, really! It won't tell you why. You can't find any error messages. No place to trace it down. No complaints. Just. Plain. Nothing.

The abyss.

After a day of doing that and finding that the harder I tried, the behinder I got, as Redhate Linux configuration bitrot sent my beloved system spiralling into unusability, I decided not to throw good money after bad--to quit while I wasn't ahead, as it were.

So you can begin to imagine the tears of joy that streamed from my eyes, when, on my happy BSD system I typed:

# cd /usr/ports/x11/enlightenment/
# make install

And it worked. It fricking worked! It just did absofuckinglutely everything and it all worked! It fetched everything needed, in pure unmutilated source code. It never blew up because something wasn't there, it just obligingly fetched it, built in, installed it, and kept going without missing a beat. Not only did it work seamlessly, it managed to so without trashing my entire system.

I laughed. I cried. I giggled and gibbered with joy. I spat upon the parts of the disk on the Linux box where I thought the wicked RPMs lay smoldering. I sang praises to the mercies and the glories of the Source, whence all solutions come. The heavens themselves opened up, and the epiphany that seized me was nothing less than the full force and fury of the power of the Source. Blinded by the light, I heard the source angels trumpeting from on high (in D major): Death to RPMs! They are the Dark Side of Winix! They will destroy you! Return to the source, brother! Glory be to the Source! By Source alone are you saved!

Ok, deep breaths. Much better. I'm calm again.

I wanted you to know that you did suffer alone, that I too know intimately and painfully whereof you speak. I too have walked the Via Dolorosa that you describe. And I just wanted to share this blissful and fleeting moment of, um, enlightenment with you. :-)

Re:Internationalization

[Tom Christiansen]

Thanks for the info. I'm curious how snarf-and-barf works with wide characters.

Yes, I know about paragraph breaks. And I even know that in HTML, they're supposed to be with a P instead of multiple BRs.

But the extra question was there that way because it didn't get attached to the itemized listing in the other top-level thread of mine here, the one which has a high score, where it would have been question #8. I wasn't breaking them up into separate pieces, so each question would appear to be the same thing.

And yes, I'm aware that using a full stop is not a sign of weakness. :-)

Freeing GPL-encumbered libraries

[Tom Christiansen]

A library licensed under the GPL requires the app to be GPL, so we see an obvious advantage given to Free developers. Readline is GPL'ed right? So, if you wish to take advantage of all the conveniences it gives you, well you have to GPL your program too. Having more free software doesn't hurt us much, now does it? Do I have any weight if I yell, "I want to use Readline in my closed source app but I can't. Therefore Readline and whoever wrote it are evil incarnate! Burn them! Burn them!!"

I have lots of good news for you. First of all, you have the wonderful position of seeing an alleged advantage that many of us never quite manage to make out. You are obviously a gifted and sensitive person.

The next piece of good news is that I freed the encumbered readline library using my innovative freedline [perl.com] package.

Another piece of good news is that by this device have all the GPL-encumbered libraries everywhere been freed, rendering them useful again as LGPL'd libraries (L standing for Library, of course).

Finally, my last piece of good news is that since then I've found that there are at least three other readline implementations out there, which means that you needn't even use my device. But it would still prove efficacious in freeing other libraries encumbered with the GPL.

Be free! Be happy!

End Discrimination Based on Manual Orientation!

[Tom Christiansen]

Snarf-and-barf is what you do with your mouse. Single, double, or triple-clicking with the index button (NOT THE RIGHT BUTTON, DAMN IT) gets you character, word, or line. Clicking with the ring button (NOT THE LEFT BUTTON, DAMN IT) extends the snarfing. And clicking the middle button barfs your snarfed data back into wherever your mouse is aimed.

That's snarf-and-barf.

As you see, this "left" and "right" terminology is completely wrong. Last time I looked at KDE, it kept telling me to use left button and right button, despite the fact that this was completely wrong. You see, I always execute xmodmap -e 'pointer = 3 2 1', which takes care of that. But the stupid messages don't track this. That's highly stupid. You can either fix it to track this correctly, or you can stop using messages that discrimate against someone's manual orientation, as I have attempted to do above.

And yes, I actually am completely serious about this.

Re:why another browser?

[Mouse]

Yes, Netscape 4 is a horrible beast, but the design for Gecko blows anything Konq right out of the water. I will not even venture down the path of discussing the fallicy the Mozilla windows-centric other than to point out that the Linux/GTK port is considered the benchmark for the team, and to point out that the whole interface is composed using a deivation of XML called XUL. How much platform indenpendence do you want?

As for the issue with the readiness of Gecko, I want to know from these guys why they didn't devote their energies into Mozilla rather than rolling their rendering engine? They could have easily concentrated on Gecko, and not have worked on the other browser pieces. Not only KDE have a far superior HTML renderer(that includes full support for XML for those app developers), but the open source community and movement would have benefited from a more stable and product product earlier. Let us not forget that Mozilla is begging for help, and here are bunch of guys re-inventing the wheel.

So, I want to know from the KDE crew, why didn't you contribute to Gecko and embed your product into KDE? Was it pure ego? or Was it something substanitive? I must say that a perspective user, it seems you wasted a lot of time that could have been better spent helping another project and expanding the functionality of your own product.

Re:Just how *easy* will it be?

[Tom Christiansen]

It's DLL hell all over again.

It's just part of the Windows compatibility effort, you know.

Language *and* toolkit independence?

[Tet]

Will there be language bindings for developers who would rather use other languages when developing KDE apps?

Arse! This was basically my question, but slashdot was so slow this afternoon that I couldn't submit it. I wanted to know about more than just language bindings, though. I want to be able to make KDE compliant apps using whatever language and toolkit I want. Are there any plans to make KDE more language and toolkit independent? How can I make my C/Gtk app KDE compliant? What if I'm just using Xlib directly? Or even FORTRAN and Motif? What do I need to provide KDE from my app in order to be considered KDE compliant, and what steps are being taken to let me do that from outside of C++/Qt?

A pet peeve of mine.

[anatoli]

Nobody in the {free software, open source, *nix in general} world seem to recognize that there are languages that are written right-to-left or bidirectionally. And most software is so deeply based upon left-to-right-writing assumption, it's often very hard to add bidi support afterwards.

My question is: will we have to wait until KDE 3.0 to have true bidi support? KDE 4.0? KDE 2100?

OTOH if there's any remote possibility that bidi is possible to add to 2.x series, I'm more than willing to help.

FYI: MS and Apple both support bidi. Be probably does too.
--

Precisely what is slow is an issue...

[Christopher B. Brown]

I am familiar with TAO, and with [wustl.edu] ILU, and certainly know of [xerox.com] MICO and [mico.org] omniORB. I suggest taking a look at the [att.com] GnuPaghe Project; they went through an ORB selection process, and waffled back and forth between TAO and MICO, leaning back towards MICO because of compile time memory consumption. The finding on TAO was thus: Huge at compile time; I haven't done precise measures, yet it surely eats about 700 Mb while compiling it. This may be an exaggeration on the hugeness of TAO; there have certainly been similar reports on MICO. I've compiled some bits of ORBit code, and found it fairly appalling how 1K of IDL turned into compiled object code a hundred K or so in size; for C++-based stuff to be more lardly is not too much of a surprise. If it takes 128MB of memory to compile Hello, World! that can represent a significant barrier to the widespread adoption of CORBA. [netpedia.net]