Corel Dropping WINE? 89
Nathan Ehresman writes "According to this "Corel Corporation will use GraphOn's Bridges(TM) software to allow access to Windows applications from Corel's(R) Linux desktops." Does this mean Corel is dropping support of WINE? " I sure hope not. They've put a lot of effort in to the project, and I think they raised a lot of peoples hopes and expectations...
Possibly... (Score:2)
corel linux (Score:1)
So, I downloaded the ISO image and installed it on a box to check it out. The install, was _really_ easy, however I wish it had gone ahead and had the network setup as part of the install.
I've gotten used to gnome on the Red Hat boxes I use, so it was intersting to revisit KDE - sure has come a ways since I last used it 9 months ago.
This is pretty supreficial, but I wish that corel had made the default backgrounds a little snazzier than just solid colors - assumedly this is going to be many consumers first foray into linux - be good to get some 'Oohh, pretty's' right off the bat..
Anyway, I'm kind of puzzled that Corels stock isn't moving in a more positive manner right now. Thoughts? Insights?
Dropping WINE support? (Score:1)
Do You Trust GraphOn? (Score:5)
One can't quite help but suspect these guys might be trying to ride some of the current publicity around Linux, especially that generated by Comdex.
I'd personally wait until Corel makes some sort of announcement themselves before taking this one from GraphOn with anything but a large grain of salt.
-=-=-=-=-
WINE and bridges aren't the same! (Score:3)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what the article describes about bridges, it's basically allowing Windows apps to display their stuff on a Linux desktop via some kind of connection (modem, network, etc.). Doesn't this mean that the Windows app will still need to run on a Windows box somewhere? I don't know if that many users can afford to have two boxes just for the sake of running Windows apps on Corel Linux.
OTOH WINE lets you run Windows apps from the same box... a much more preferable solution for the typical PC user, I'd think.
Wine will go on (Score:4)
Yipes! No, that's not what it does! (Score:5)
Corel is using Wine to port their applications to Linux. I've always assumed (perhaps wrongly) that they weren't interested in Windows emulation, just porting their own apps using the Wine API.
GraphOn produces networking products, not Windows emulation. This is basically a Windows version of X-Windows.
So:
To port Corel Office to Linux -> Wine
To run Windows apps remotely with the display on a Linux box -> GraphOn
To run Windows apps locally on a Linux box -> Wine
Bloody sensationalistic headlines (Score:4)
Corel wants Wine mainly for winelib, which allows it to build Linux native executable versions from its existing Windows codebase with a minimum of fuss.
GraphOn's Bridges allows you to run Windows applications on a remote server, and have them displayed locally (much like X clients). Unless Corel has suddenly dropped the licensed-software model in favour of "application rentals" from the desktop, which would be a pretty rash move even by Corel's standards, I really don't see the "threat" here.
Steve 'Nephtes' Freeland | Okay, so maybe I'm a tiny itty
... (Score:3)
I'm alittle suprised - this really isn't "news" - it's just idle speculation. It shouldn't have been posted to /. unless one of the WINE developers came here and said Corel was backing off, not being as active on the lists, etc. All that posting this is gonna do is put corel in an (undeserved) bad light. Come on guys - let's do alittle backgrounding first before we post stuff like this. Maybe slashdot needs an opinion / rumor section, 'cuz alot of people are going to hype up the significance of this.
--
Rather distressing, if WINE is dropped (Score:3)
The article does not indicate anything about WINE being downright eliminated, only that the GraphOn [graphon.com] software will get added in.
It is not self-evident that WINE [winehq.com] becomes of no value; a major value to WINE to Corel should in permitting Win32 software to be recompiled using libwine so that they may be deployed as native Linux applications.
In contrast, the GraphOn Linux Client to Bridges [graphon.com] software is not a tool to allow Windows software to run on Linux; it is merely a tool to allow Windows software to run on Windows NT, and then display on Linux.
Essentially, this provides the same sort of functionality as the Citrix ICA protocol, or Microsoft's Hydra.
What is particularly distressing is that this supports the GraphOn Patent for Remoting Windows Applications. [graphon.com] But that does not appear to have anything to do with WINE...
No No, This is more Like Star Portal or VNC. (Score:2)
This looks like a short term goal, Graphon is all about thin computing and NC's. Anyone think the Network Computer is alive?
Joseph Elwell.
Doesn't mention WINE (Score:1)
However....
I do think we need some sort of emulation (like WINE) that will allow us to run Windows apps. Even better would be something that lets us compile Windows apps natively. PowerBuilder has that type of functionality--you can design a project and take the project file to any of the several platforms PowerBuilder runs on, and compile the program for that platform. I think they use Berlin libraries (correct me if I'm wrong) for all the GUI and system calls PB apps make, on the different Unix platforms they support. Unfortunately, Linux isn't one of those. :/
Bridges sounds like a decent app. From reading the article, I get the impression it is mainly used for deploying apps over the Internet, like what Sun wants to do with SO, and MS with Office, and Corel, I guess, with Corel Office. I don't know how this would affect local installs (i.e., not running over the Internet)--presumably, they would still need a translation layer between the app and the OS. So perhaps this is an addition to the architecture, and not a dismissal of WINE.
Just my $.02
Then why not use VNC? (Score:1)
If this is true, then why would Corel spend money on such a product when they can get (virtually) the same functionality using VNC?
The only difference between what I understand Bridges to be and VNC is that VNC would put the entire desktop in a window on your Linux box while Bridges would only put the one application that you were running in that window.
VNC is a very solid application, that I've to run those windows applications that I still need while sitting at a Linux box. The only benefit I could possibly see in Bridges over VNC is that Bridges could (possibly) take advantage of the (semi) multi-user part of NT while VNC does not.
Anyone know anything that I'm missing here?
Re:GraphOn's Product DOES NOT exist. (Score:2)
Joseph Elwell.
GraphOn world first (Score:1)
Nice little gem:
GO-Joe
GO-Joe(TM) is the world's first thin server-based solution for accessing Unix and Linux applications, from virtually any Java-enabled desktop or device...
These guys should really look at VNC [att.com].
BSD vs. GPL license again ... (Score:3)
Corel initially supported WINE in a big way, Corel contributed back changes, Coral actively participated in development mailing lists. Today they have their complete internal tree (see this [integrita.com] article) which they have not published so far. They are using WINE in the Corel/Linux distribution though. If WINE was GPL, then nobody could keep such proprietary enhancements to themselves. Corel can use, abuse and throw away WINE, leaving nothing for the WINE community but unecessary confusion. The BSD license is simply too naive for this world, and its inteded 'bigger freedom' actually results in more abuse! The sad fact is that freedom cannot be guaranteed without weapons, and the GPL is the protective 'weapon' to keep free code freed. Microsoft has analyzed this issue very accurately in the Halloween memos: the GPL is a 'next generation' license, much more 'dangerous' to Microsoft than the BSD license.
It's still not too late though - WINE could still be released under the GPL, which will prevent many types of abuses. We can only hope that WINE developers understand these issues.
Not that big a deal (Score:1)
It dosen't seem like this is a big deal to me.
This allows remote running of windows apps
in a similar way to X (though not as good I'll
warrant since X was designed for networking from
the ground up)
For the home user though its pretty useless. It
sounds like you'd have to have a fairly beefy
application server to make it work. And for games
it's next to useless.
It seems to me that some of the biggest
improvements in Wine have been in getting
games to work.
Steve.
Re:Impressive (Score:2)
Gratuitious MS-slam: It doesn't help that MS products are giving the US a reputation for producing shoddy software, either
Bridges != WINE (Score:1)
Hopefully this will straighten things out (Score:3)
First, Corel will not drop Wine any time in the near future. Wine is the most important part of Corel's business strategy over the next couple years. It allows them to port all their windows applications to Linux quickly and maintain these ports easily. This will be the first time Corel will improve its revenues in years, and it will be dramatic. From a revenue standpoint, I think Wine is more important to Corel than their new Corel Linux distro or the GraphOn partnership, at least in the short term. From a Linux user standpoint, it means we can all have a high-quality, stable office suite (and graphics suite) running natively under Linux very soon.
Graphon makes a line of products which allow software to run on a server running operating system Y by a client on a machine running OS Z, where Y and Z can be Windows, Unix/Linux, or Java. Obviously this is A GOOD THING, since it will help break the Microsoft monopoly and allow people more flexibility. It is also key for ASP's, which Sun and Microsoft are fighting for, but Graphon and Corel beat them to. Note that Corel originally wrote some of Graphon's products and traded it to Graphon earlier this year for 20% equity in Graphon. This is why Corel and Graphon have such a good relationship, which will be a good thing for anybody who wants to work outside of Microsoft's box.
As for GraphOn, Corel, Linux, and China - this is a good thing. It means a lot more people will be using Linux and a non-Microsoft office suite.
As for GraphOn's stupid patent on X clients on Windows, they aren't the first company to have a very dumb and indefendable patent.
Today's press release means that users of Corel Linux will be able to remotely run Windows applications on Corel Linux by connecting to a Windows application server. This is analogous to sitting at one Linux machine and logging into another to run a graphical application over X. Except in this case, you're sitting in front of Linux running some Windows app made by a company who doesn't care about Linux users and won't port to Linux. So, this too is A GOOD THING for Linux and Linux users:)
One last point: Anything which is bad for Microsoft is good for Corel. Corel is competing head to head with Microsoft on office suites which is the majority of Corel's revenue. Thus, anything which undermines Microsoft's monopoly will help Corel get market share. So Corel will happily help Linux, application serving, etc. even if it doesn't directly bring revenue to Corel just because every new Linux user is another person who may buy Corel Office instead of Microsoft Office. It is not clear that Corel will make any money off of its new Linux distribution, but they created a new Linux distro because they saw that no other distro was easy enough to use by most people. And they released their improvements (except 3rd party stuff) as GPL, since Corel wants people to use Linux, whether it is Corel Linux, Red Hat Linux, etc.
Dan
This is based on old events (Score:4)
Pluse Corel does partly own GraphOn, so what is good for GraphOn is good for Corel.
Cheers,
Ben
This is based on old events (Score:2)
Pluse Corel does partly own GraphOn, so what is good for GraphOn is good for Corel.
Cheers,
Ben
Re:Do You Trust GraphOn? (Score:2)
The same annoucement, on corels site. Its a month old even. Oh well, we might need to somehow contact corel in a plesent a kind way and see if they understand the patent problems that graphon has created.
nothing about corel dropping wine in the article (Score:1)
that press release mentions nothing at all about corel abandoning wine. it simply says that it will include graphOn bridge for network applications on windows.
where did this 'corle dops wine' notion come from?
Re:GraphOn's Product DOES NOT exist. (Score:1)
You are right that it is not advertised on their Products page. This is probably because they first unveiled it last week at Comdex. Read today's press release [graphon.com]. It WILL let people run Windows applications remotely from Unix/Linux/Windows/Java.
According to a previous press release [graphon.com], it will be available for Linux next month.
Dan
Re:corel linux (Score:1)
In the longer term, yesterday's close was still 25% over a week earlier, before Corel Linux was released Tuesday at Comdex. Many traders entered the market for the Corel Linux release run-up, and are now withdrawing their positions. This is one reason CORL hasn't been doing so hot the last two-three days. But there are probably quite a few longs predicting a short-term low at 11, which gave support. This news probably bumped it up to 12ish.
I still think it's silly that this news proped up CORL so much today, considering Corel Linux hasn't even had one week to establish market share. This news really doesn't effect CORL's bottom line.
5-day chart of CORL's stock activity [yahoo.com]
(15-minute delay)
Re:corel linux (Score:1)
by the way, as far as market share goes - they haven't even shipped their retail product - they've just made the free download available, which is far less featured (and only available as an ISO image). Looking forward to seeing it hit the shelves. Supposedly this will happen on the 30th.
Re:GraphOn's Product DOES NOT exist. (Score:1)
Actually, there's a few of them. Exceed (from Hummingbird [hummingbird.com]), Excursion, XLink [xlink.com], MI/X from Micro Images [microimages.com]. I also read in a slashdot discussion a while ago a mention of a free X server for Windows, but I don't remember anything about it.
Re:Bloody sensationalistic headlines (Score:2)
This used to be a great site...
Until the posters get their heads out of their arses...
this'll be just a shell of what it used to be...
People like you irritate me. You sound like an old man with all that whining. What, this place isn't cool anymore because it's popular? You don't feel special enough anymore, is that it? Face it fella, things change. I too remember Slashdot from the old days. In fact, I remember asking myself who the Anonymous Coward guy was and marveling at his prodigious ability to post comments!
The feel and mood of slashdot has changed to accomodate the hustle and bustle of the increased traffic. It's never going to go back to that charming little website that a handful of people knew about. Wishing for that just makes you seem awfully childish. This isn't the only pitstop on the metaverse. If this one doesn't do it for you, move on.
Re:Yipes! No, that's not what it does! (Score:1)
From what I understand reading on the GraphOn website, it seems to me that their product does exactly the job done by the well-known (and GPL'd) VNC [att.com], perhaps better.
Come on already, Corel is a dead company (Score:1)
I can't believe that so many of you people are hanging your hopes on a loser like Corel. Are you really that desperate to be able to run Windows apps on your computers? Imagine if all that development work had actually gone into producing decent apps instead of WINE itself -- which still doesn't seem like it will ever do better than a half-assed job on anything but a handful of quality Windows apps.
Whenever I see someone using WINE, I just want to slap 'em around and tell them to quit being such a cheapass and to go buy one of those dinky little $300 Windows boxes, which will still blow WINE away. I can't help but think that they're the kind of people who take a date to the Sizzler all-you-can-eat bar with "two-for-the-price-of-one" and free drinks coupons stuffed in his pockets.
It'd be sad if it weren't so freakin' funny.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
Re:BSD vs. GPL license again ... (Score:1)
have you ever READ the GPL? (Score:1)
The GPL does NOT force a developer to release the source code, unless the product is being distributed. Even if Wine used the GPL, Corel has every right to maintain an internal-only tree. Their proprietary enhancements, as you call them, are intended ONLY FOR THEMSELVES.
Let me quote from the preamble:
For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that you have. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code. And you must show them these terms so they know their rights.
'Nuff said.
SEAL
he's very right..please moderate this up :) (Score:1)
A wine-devel explains it all (tm) (Score:3)
And secondly, for the love of Christ, *change the Wine topic icon*. The Wine project has had a real, official logo that's much nicer looking for 2 years now. See http://www.winehq.com/.
PS: about the browser wars: some other developers got MSIE 5 displaying images over the weekend, so now you can do real surfing in it
-Ian, in the Wine AUTHORS file and damn proud.
Re:Yipes! No, that's not what it does! (Score:1)
Hi people. Speaking of dropping...I just dropped a bowl of hot grits down my pants !!!
Unless you acquired said grits at a drive-up window while wearing spandex and the temperature of said grits exceeded 179 degrees F., I don't think you have an actionable cause.
(Score: -5 Offtopic)
======
"Rex unto my cleeb, and thou shalt have everlasting blort." - Zorp 3:16
Re:GraphOn's Product DOES NOT exist. (Score:1)
I still use the old freeware version at home..
I might be able to scare up a copy, if anyone's interested..
Wine Is A Failure (Score:1)
All this said, IMNSHO Wine is a failure and will not amount to anything worthwhile. I've been using Linux faithfully since 1996 and back in those days had high hopes for wine. Over 3 years later sad to say I still not cannot reliably run even the simplest 32 bit apps. Even some 16 bit apps like file mangler do not work flawlessly. Not to say wine doesn't amaze me at times, I was really intrigued to see it render a complete map in Delorme Street Atlas 5.0... but after that it just froze like a rock. Here are the reasons wine is a waste of time...
a) Microsoft changes their API constantly, no one really knows how it works except for them. Anyone ever wonder why Microsoft apps "just work better" on windows than the competition?
b) By the time wine is done, all those apps will have better native linux equivelents.
c) (similar to b) All the manpower being put into wine could better be spent cranking out similar applications for linux.
d)There are much simpler ways of running windows apps under the Linux environment... VMWare to name one. I'd really like to see the whole wine team scrap wine and start working on a freeware PC hardware emulator instead. That way I could run my BeOS apps in a window next to my windows apps (all under Linux).
And now, to divert for a moment to a slightly off-topic subject, one big thing that keeps most of us going back to windows is GAMES. At least *I* don't care if I never see Microsoft Office again, but I feel bad about leaving behind Need For Speed 4. Now... most big game companies develop for the PlayStation, Nintendo, etc, and then the PC. Fortunately, game system API's can't change every 5 minutes like Microsoft directX seems to be doing. Heres an oportunity folks to draw some serious attention to Linux as a gaming platform. As seen with Bleem (a game system emulator for windows)... a emulator with native bindings can produce rather good performance on a PC for console games.
Re:GraphOn's Product DOES NOT exist. (Score:1)
Doesn't mention WINE, because it's not like WINE (Score:2)
It's a way of allowing one to display remotely Windows applications.
That means that in order to use it, you have to have two boxes:
This is not an emulation; you require an NT box on which to run the application. No emulation involved.
Is it that much of a failure? (Score:3)
On the other hand, there is a sizable body of applications that need to be able to run on all of:
This actually makes it more possible to build a decent emulation; if Microsoft changes the APIs too much, particularly in the direction of "breaking if you're not doing things exactly the way we want you to today," this will break code that already needs to run on four (or more) distinct Microsoft platforms.
It wouldn't do to assume that this makes it necessarily easy to track MSFT changes, but it is certainly the case that it gets harder over time for MSFT to make changes.
The cool thing about WINE is that it potentially provides a way for some of that "bad old Windows code" to get redeployed using libWine to run natively on a UNIX. Obviously with some uncertainty as to the likelihood of that turning into billions of lines of UNIX-based apps...
Re:Corel, Wine, Graphon, VNC (Score:1)
Graphon and VNC do the same thing. We have been using VNC for a year --linux to windows and windows to Linux. It works well over a 100Mbs network, but is a dismal failure at 56K
. Graphon seems much more efficient-- at least on their demo it makes it feasible to run an application like Wordperfect reotely over 56K. That is pretty good and better than much of the competition.
If the products stay as they are more or less, we would use VNC in house, but use Graphon for our remote dial up users (who currently use PcAnyhwere as a windows to windows solution).
I could see a real potential for VNC to gain speed which would hurt Graphon. I can also see a potential for Graphon's patent to be a problem for VNC-- as I understand it Graphon bought a formerly existing patent that predated VNC.
I think Graphon has enough interest in the Linux community that patent problems could probably be worked out, if any exist.
Re:Yipes! No, that's not what it does! (Score:1)
1. VNC captures a bitmap of a server desktop (or, at least, the parts of the desktop that have changed) and sends _this bitmap_ down to a client viewer.
2. VNC's display, therefore, is only as multi-user as the base OS... under Unix, VNC can serve out multiple distinct desktops, but under Windows VNC can only serve out one desktop.
3. VNC can't share out an individual app - it shares the whole desktop.
Now, compare this with GraphOn's product (or, at least, my understanding of it):
1. GraphOn server on Windows NT intercepts GDI calls and translates these calls into a language which is then passed to a client which renders the GDI call at the client end.
2. Because the application is never actually displayed on the NT side, it's possible for GraphOn to serve out multiple distinct copies of the app simultaneously.
3. GraphOn serves out on an application-by-applicaton basis, not the whole desktop.
'Course, I could be wrong - it wouldn't be the first time. But the above is my understanding of the differences between the two...
BTW the patent that GraphOn acquired is _extremely_ specific; there was a discussion about it on the VNC list recently and the conclusion was that the patent didn't really apply to VNC.
Re:Whats VNC (Score:1)
I LOVE this program....
xwin32 (Score:1)
#define X(x,y) x##y
Exactly! Score this man up! :-) (Score:1)
left handed monkeywrenches and sky hooks (Score:1)
using graphon to access windoze apps via the net
in a rent an app situation.now you can pay for the privelege just like a windoze user to use word.
i bet it catches on like disposable clothing,
horseback simulator for motorcycles or
freeze dried water.
perhaps they should rent a life
Then take the code WAS Re:BSD vs. GPL license. (Score:1)
It would be MUCH more productive use of your time then comming onto slashdot and whining about the BSD licence. Go GPL the code, and make yourself happy.
Re:GraphOn's Product DOES NOT exist. (Score:1)
:)
I've been using Xoftware since 3.4. I remember when the tech guy laughed at me because he said I should upgrade to 6.0, now I think they're on something like 97.
Although it is nice for people to point out alternatives for those less informed.
Joseph Elwell.
Re:GraphOn's Product DOES NOT exist. (Score:1)
Point of fact: A press release does not a product make.
Saying "It WILL" do something only points out that sadly 'it DOESN'T' do anything right now.
Joseph Elwell.
my response is off topic, but (Score:1)
Re:xwin32 (Score:1)
One cool feature which I haven't seen in other non-unix X servers (not that I've tried many, but I've seen eXceed and Mi/X on a Mac) is that you can set it to open X windows as top level windows managed by MS Windoze's WM. (then you don't need to run a UNIX WM.) You can use the traditional one-big-window style, too.
Well, I've never tried exceed on a Mac, but on the Windows version you can also do what you describe... That is, you can see a complete Unix desktop or you can have a Windows style menu borders etc. on your apps (CDE looks really strange this way) or you can remotely execute single applications and not start an entire desktop.
Re:Yipes! No, that's not what it does! (Score:1)
Although, just the same, VNC in windows doesn't sound as powerful overall. Ah well.
See FreeMWare (Score:1)
Re:have you ever READ the GPL? (Score:1)
Re:BSD vs. GPL license again ... (Score:1)
The main argument to go BSD license was to allow linking of closed-source applications with WINE-lib. But if you release WINE under the LGPL then this is perfectly possible. I very much respect the license choice WINE developers do, but I'm free to point out problems (and you are free to ignore them), no?
Re:Then take the code WAS Re:BSD vs. GPL license. (Score:2)
Re:Then take the code WAS Re:BSD vs. GPL license. (Score:1)
Huh?
1) You GPLing WINE stops YOUR whining. Because now the 'the code' is 'free'....just like YOU wanted.
2) The code is 'free' now. The 'freedom' is of the USER to choose what and how they want to use it.
3) Why don't you have ANY respect for the authors and the people who work on the code? They opted for a BSD licence.
>A theoretical Leach Corporation
*yawn*
1) If you havn't figured it out yet, big corporations take what they want. If they what what you have done, they will take it.
2) Back to repect...the authors have decided that ANYONE is free to use their code ANY DAMN WAY THEY SEE FIT. So if some 'big corporate leach' (as you seem to want to call them) wants to use their work, the authors of the code have decided that this is cool.
Again, go GPL the code and 'save the world', at least in your head. Your whining about WINE will then stop, as you have what you want. If you are unwilling to go GPL it, then what right do you have to whine about WINE?
Re:Then take the code WAS Re:BSD vs. GPL license. (Score:1)
LAST POST (Score:1)
gr33tz 2 d3v0