Microsoft Creates Kinect-Like System Using Laptop Speaker & Microphone 169
MrSeb writes "Microsoft Research, working with the University of Washington, has developed a Kinect-like system that uses your computer's built-in microphone and speakers to provide object detection and gesture recognition, much in the same way that a submarine uses sonar. Called SoundWave, the new technology uses the Doppler effect to detect any movements and gestures in the proximity of a computer. In the case of SoundWave, your computer's built-in speaker is used to emit ultrasonic (18-22KHz) sound waves, which change frequency depending on where your hand (or body) is in relation to the computer. This change in frequency is measured by your computer's built-in microphone, and then some fairly complex software works out your motion/gesture. The obvious advantage of SoundWave over a product like Kinect is that it uses existing, commodity hardware; it could effectively equip every modern laptop with a gesture-sensing interface. The Microsoft Research team is reporting a 90-100% accuracy rate for SoundWave, even in noisy environments."
Sounds Interesting ... (Score:2)
Re:Sounds Interesting ... (Score:5, Funny)
Why is my dog barking at my laptop?
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Why is my dog barking at my laptop?
Barking may not be as big a problem as wagging his tail, scratching an itch, etc.
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Why is my dog barking at my laptop?
Because that is not really your laptop, you moron! It is a polymimetic-type Terminator! Your dog is trying to warn you! Run for your life!
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Re:Sounds Interesting ... (Score:4, Interesting)
Some people also hear sounds in the 18-22 kHz range. Especially 18-20 kHz, which is inside the "normal" hearing range for young people.
Most PC speakers and many sound cards are unable to produce reliable sound in those ranges anyhow, so it might be moot - it likely won't annoy you because it won't work.
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My thoughts exactly, what average person's laptop can hit 20k? I'm pretty sure mine cant.
Now, a cheap little usb transducer stuck to your monitor might be a reliable idea....
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Many electronic components emit ultrasound. Who's to say you're not already zombified by your overhead CFL bulbs?
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Just wait till the reports regarding how prolonged exposure to this frequency causes earlobe cancer.
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Earlobe cancer, that's a thing?? You mean my freakishly large ear lobes can actually be cancer?!
Re:Sounds Interesting ... (Score:5, Funny)
Exactly! Just like radiation!
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There's a difference between ionising radiation and non-ionising radiation. Anything with a ultra-violet and up can give you cancer. Anything below, well, it can make you warm... but that's about it. Of course, being repeatedly burned can also give you cancer, so non-ionising radiation can, eventually, give you cancer. Just like standing too close to a fire for too long can give you cancer.
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No, no, you read the all knowing anonomous coward, if you can't sense it it can't hurt you.
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Thats almost correct, but not the whole of it. Microwave radiation is non-ionizing, but it also can have some funky effects like inducing electricity. IIRC its still up in the air whether microwave has any effects other than just thermal.
But in general, if the radiation isnt ionizing, its probably not harmful unless you feel a physical burning sensation.
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It all depends on the frequency used for the "sonar" system, the fans, HDD, background noise shouldn't contain a signifinact amount of noise at 20kHz so it shouldn't be a problem
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From the article "The Microsoft Research team is reporting a 90-100% accuracy rate for SoundWave, even in noisy environments."
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Getting it wrong one time in ten doesn't sound terribly good to me.
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From the article "The Microsoft Research team is reporting a 90-100% accuracy rate for SoundWave, even in noisy environments."
Now, let's turn on a room fan, or have the HVAC system start blowing the air around...
Plus, as I said earlier, 18-22 KHz is definitely audible for the vast majority of the young gamers they are targeting, so I declare this an EPIC fail...
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From the article "The Microsoft Research team is reporting a 90-100% accuracy rate for SoundWave, even in noisy environments."
Now, let's turn on a room fan, or have the HVAC system start blowing the air around...
Plus, as I said earlier, 18-22 KHz is definitely audible for the vast majority of the young gamers they are targeting, so I declare this an EPIC fail...
I ain't no spring chicken, but I can hear that shit.
The most annoying sound in the world wasn't featured in Dumb & Dumber, it's a dozen disposable cameras with fully-charged flash capacitors. Thankfully, people rarely use disposable cameras today.
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Now, let's turn on a room fan, or have the HVAC system start blowing the air around...
I'd like to quote TFS and GP here "The Microsoft Research team is reporting a 90-100% accuracy rate for SoundWave, even in noisy environments."
Bzzzt! Physics knowledge failure detected!
The type of "sound" that a typical room-fan generates that will screw with this isn't the audible "whoosh" sound, but rather the SUB-sonic "warble" (frequency wobble) "vibrato" that is generated by the speed of the fan blades "beating" the air. This "vibrato" might be tracked as "motion" by the doppler-tracking s/w. At best, it would introduce an annoying "uncertainty" in the position information, and at worst, might cause the system to just "give up" due to crapp
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Good job reading the summary:
"The Microsoft Research team is reporting a 90-100% accuracy rate for SoundWave, even in noisy environments."
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Good job reading the summary: "The Microsoft Research team is reporting a 90-100% accuracy rate for SoundWave, even in noisy environments."
That's just with their test gesture, the patented "Hand Clap".
Re:Sounds Interesting ... (Score:5, Funny)
Computer: Hi there, I see you are giving me the middle finger salute. Would you like help with:
1. filing out your Windows registration
2. sending us money to unlock exciting new features of Windows
3. allowing all your warnings and alerts to use the voice chip
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Computer: That's great! You chose he default option; *all three* !
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Re:Sounds Interesting ... (Score:4, Insightful)
It sounds interesting, as long as there is no background noise, you are alone in the room with the system and the system itself isn't generating any noises (fans? DVD access? music or sound effects?).
And you don't have a fan operating in the room, and aren't less than 25 years old (or 40 if female) (most males can hear 18-22 KHz up to about that age, and females until about age 40-50), so that you can't stand to be in the same room with it.
Re:Sounds Interesting ... (Score:5, Funny)
So you're saying that it's a device the will make the wife and kids leave me the f** alone so that I can get some work done?!!
Does it run on Linux?
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to clarify:
it's looking for specific frequencies, so other noise is not going to distort it much unless that noise is also at the same frequencies.
You don't understand much about the physics of sound, do you?
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You don't understand much about the physics of sound, do you?
But clearly you know more than Microsoft Research. Jackass.
Apparently I do, if they think that this not-even-ultrasonic (at least for young folk and pets) "SONAR" system is going to be acceptable to that market, and/or impervious to room-fan "warble".
PLEASE tell me who is going to want to sit in front of their laptop with this thing chirping (or even worse, whistling) at FULL BLAST (which it will HAVE to do to get enough "return" signal) right in their face?
BTW, I used to be a sound engineer in my younger days, and for the past 30+ years, have been an embedded
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Most AC97 chips have multiple output pins and windows 7 has good control of the audio system now... can output ultrasonic on laptop speakers while still putting the user audio on the headphones.
Ultrasonic? (Score:3)
How is this Ultrasonic? Humans can hear up to 20KHz. So only the upper end of this is going to be above human hearing. Neat idea but I don't think I could tolerate the high pitch whine all day. Sounds like MS needs to hire some younger blood.
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Re:Ultrasonic? (Score:4, Funny)
Not surprising. Everyone on Slashdot is rare and special.
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Yeah, if it's 18 kHz, I'll most likely be able to hear it at least from my right ear. (One reason I'm very glad LCD has displaced CRT TV's is that damn flyback whine.)
Then again, how much amplitude are you going to get out of a randomly chosen voice coil speaker at frequencies above 20kHz?
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It's not always the transformer. Sometimes it's the coil windings that steer the beam that vibrate.
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Yeah, if it's 18 kHz, I'll most likely be able to hear it at least from my right ear. (One reason I'm very glad LCD has displaced CRT TV's is that damn flyback whine.)
Then again, how much amplitude are you going to get out of a randomly chosen voice coil speaker at frequencies above 20kHz?
Flyback whine is 15,750 Hz in the U.S. When I was a kid, I could clearly hear that from upstairs in my bedroom with the TV downstairs in the livingroom.
Teenagers (at least those who haven't cooked their hearing yet) will want to VOMIT when they sit down in front of this. Mark my words: As soon as they start testing this in front of people younger than the Project Team, this will die the death it so richly deserves...
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Agreed, this is going to be totally obnoxious when used in the vicinity of anyone whose hearing is reasonably good.
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As you get older, you hearing range drops from the "ideal" of 20K.
I just took this hearing test and discovered that my hearing is reduced to about 8K-10K max.
http://www.noiseaddicts.com/2009/03/can-you-hear-this-hearing-test/ [noiseaddicts.com]
Too many rock concerts when I was young and foolish?
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I used to be the angel of death for monitors when I worked helpdesk. Back then we had CRTs and I could hear them squeal across the call center I worked at. Somehow the call center folks could never hear them.
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People who have had asthma can hear frequencies above 20kHz. Some can hear frequencies all the way up to 30 kHz.
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This is your culprit: (Score:3)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyback_transformer [wikipedia.org]
b.t.w. I can hear that and also mosquito buzz like the ones in shopping malls.
Oh yes, I am heading towards 50 years of age, not all old people have hearing problems.
Nowadays more young than old people have hearing problems...
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I can hear pretty much any interlaced monitor, but those are more or less gone now. I can hear many non-interlaced monitors too, but possibly there is something wrong with those.
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I haven't had asthma and I can hear CRT TV's. Do I get a prize?
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Never ask for whom the CRT squeals. It squeals for thee.
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I have tested this, I can hear above 19Khz. I understand that when I get older this will probably go away.
Re:Ultrasonic? (Score:4, Insightful)
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That is what I did, I also do not have a method to validate this. My hearing is generally considered quite good, I have no reason to believe my laptop cannot make 20khz sounds.
Either way it is a given that some portions of the normal population will be able to hear these tones. That makes this a non-starter for those adopting technology the fastest.
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Maybe you can use a microphone to see if it can capture the 20khz waveform from the speakers... which will show you either you speaker cannot generate 20khz or your microphone cannot capture 20khz, or, you can for both...
Suppose that doesn't say much.
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Well, audacity i
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High-end recording studio monitors work pretty well, too.
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I had them test my frequency range last time I went in to get fitted for earplugs. I plan on tracking this as I age, since I'm curious to know how my frequency range declines. At the border of my audio range, "hearing" the high frequencies was more like feeling a pressure in the ears -- my mind wasn't able to "hear" the high noises as any sort of distinct pitch.
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And here an AC comes and ruins all our fun and hits the point dead on.
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Not really, most humans almost can't hear past 18kHz, and even then you can only hear a very weak sound.
Search for a online wave generator and try it by yourself, generate 16k, 17k, 18k, etc.
True if you're a male above 25 years old, or a female above about 45 or 50. But when I worked on a project designing a PWM motor control with a "chopping" frequency of 18 KHz, the younger technicians that would wander into the R&D department would bitch and moan about the control "singing". And that was just from piezoelectric effect of the output FETs. But here, we're talking about INTENTIONALLY sending out not-quite-ultrasonic tones.
BTW, most laptops' speakers probably barely go up to 18 KHz. Which
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Using the same generator I can get up to 17640Hz on both my Samsung Galaxy S2 and Ubuntu machine. But not 17641Hz. Is the dropoff supposed to be this abrupt?
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Thanks! I generated a 19200Hz tone but could hear it way too clearly for my liking (I'm over 35). Maybe the generator is broken.
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It could also be the low pass (digital) filter inside your "soundcard" kicking in.
Not that abruptly. More than likely, he has hit the minimum "period" (1/frequency) that the audio generator s/w is designed to create. Speakers don't just "drop off" at a 1 Hz boundary like that. Nor does any "brick-wall" LPF, either software or hardware. It's always dB per Octave (doubling/halving of frequency). And is never so high a number that 19200 Hz would pass right through and 19201 Hz would be completely gone.
Boy, it's truly frightening how stupid most Slashdotters are sometimes...
ultrasonic? (Score:1)
In my youth I could hear 18kHz. So is this only for older / deaf users?
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Fun office game for the younger crowd: Let the old geezers think you can't find the source of the sound. Let them have their little fun now at the end of their lives, this is pretty much the high point for them.
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Fun office game for the younger crowd: Let the old geezers think you can't find the source of the sound. Let them have their little fun now at the end of their lives, this is pretty much the high point for them.
You're really gonna be hurting when I clobber you with my shuffleboard cue.
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You forgot the 5 points for every cow-orker that runs to the bathroom and throws up, and 10 points for every instance of a senseless argument breaking out between those cow-orkers.
I was unable to find a reference on orking, but it sounds like a pretty sick thing to do to a cow. These orkers certainly deserve the punish you mention.
Now... where can I find a video of a depraved person orking a cow?
1d vs 2.5d? (Score:2)
I don't have one, but I thought the kinect did 2D very accurately plus a crude 3rd D based on image size so lets call it 2.5 D
I don't see how one mic and two speakers does more than 1 D of data. Then again I haven't read the article, maybe they place the whole laptop on an oscillating fan or something as a gimmick. Or is it really using the built in cam and the ultrasound is the gimmick that doesn't really do anything?
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In this case, my impression is that the 'sonar' data are intended to be combined with a webcam image, with the 'sonar' providing a cue about what is foreground and what is background, and the webcam providing the detail.
Can thez patent it? (Score:3)
Can they patent it? This seems to be pretty much what bats have been doing for centuries
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Prior art? (Score:2)
There was some research back in the past, this is a much more precise version, it seems (and btw, why aren't they using also the built-in camera, which is very common in today's laptops?)
http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/09/10/15/2121214/sonar-software-detects-laptop-user-presence [slashdot.org]
http://empathicsystems.org/ [empathicsystems.org]
Two at once? (Score:1)
I wonder how accurate it is if two people are using it at the same time in the same area, e.g. me and my next-seat neighbor on an airliner...
*sigh* (Score:2)
Is it a good thing or a bad thing that the first thought I had was of the cell phone sonar from The Dark Knight film?
Audible (Score:4, Informative)
Some here may wonder why, in the day of sound cards with 96 ksamples/s they didn't use a higher output frequency. The problem is the sound card DAC's reconstruction filter starts attenuation significantly below that, and most speakers drop in sensitivity much beyond 20 kHz as well. I would imagine the recording side has similar limitations.
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Impact of room size/shape? (Score:2)
So, we got a Kinect, and the biggest downside we noticed is the sheer amount of space it requires to function properly.
I do not have a small house, but it's a bit tight in our living room. I can't imagine how badly it works in a typical dorm room.
Does this sound-based mechanism work better with smaller spaces? Has it been tested in dorm rooms and cube farms?
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You don't even need to read TFA, just look at the photos and you'll know the answer.
The user seems to have his hands hovering over the keyboard, so yes, it seems to work in much much smaller areas.
I can't see the video because it uses some unsupported codec, regrettably :(
These guys own stock in rotator cuff repair shops? (Score:3)
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Why is everybody trying to make me wave my hands in the air or lift my forearms off the desk to drag my fingers across a screen?
Because that's what the actors do in the all of the futuristic movies.
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I agree that there's little point on using this for everyday computer usage, it would be really cool for standing in front of classrooms giving presentations, and some other not-so-everyday-usages.
SoundWave? (Score:4, Funny)
Been done (Score:1)
Not sure whom, but I've heard someone did something like this (>5?) years ago.
SoundWave...? (Score:2)
Now if only it could transform your PC into a giant robot interested only in the consumption of all energy in the universe.
mistake in article (Score:1)
summary, then article: "the frequency changes when the distance changes". wrong.
the frequency changes when the velocity of the hand/head/whatever changes.
the article even goes further to describe the train approaching vs train leaving example of Doppler effect, and still the author didn't understand that it's not the distance that matters.
PS: 18kHz-22kHz is much too low.
Not really Kinect-like (Score:2)
Kinect detects the position of objects, while this system can only detect movement.
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Kinect detects the position of objects, while this system can only detect movement.
Not necessarily. If two slightly different frequencies are used (one from each stereo speaker), then with some complex math and comparisons against previous frames a simulated environment can be built with only one microphone. It may need to be calibrated each use (as different laptops have speakers/microphones in different physical locations across different models), but it can be approximated.
I think you missed GP's legitimate complaint... Contrary to the article, the Doppler effect has nothing to do with position, but changes in relative velocity. There's no change in frequency in the reflected ultrasonic tone if your hands are 1 inch, 1 foot, or 10 feet from the microphone... if they stay there. Only when you move can it detect the gesture, because that's the only time the reflection would be Doppler shifted.
Now, that's just according to the article's description of how the system works, but
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The problem with this kind of extrapolation is that measurement errors build up pretty quickly. This is why inertial navigation using accelerometers gets very inaccurate after only a few hours, and that's with precision equipment not a cheap mic.
It's magic! (Score:1)
I was cooking as I read this (Score:5, Interesting)
This could be pretty cool for when you have your hands dirty and don't need your keyboard to be too. Scrolling recipes, for example.
PS. Que the porn jokes...
Well, Doc.. my tinnitus only acts up near laptops. (Score:2)
Can I have my tinfoil hat?
Doc: No, it wont help.
FTFY (Score:2)
much in the same way that a bat uses echolocation.
The bats didn't patent it, but you acknowledge their work.
Another opportunity for Clippy! (Score:2)
Clippy [ohinternet.com]
Multiple Computers (Score:2)
The Microsoft Research team is reporting a 90-100% accuracy rate for SoundWave, even in noisy environments.
I wonder if they tested the system when multiple of these computers were in the same room.
22KHz is not ultrasonic (Score:2)
That is well within the normal hearing range of a teenage human.
Very cool (Score:3)
Interactive laptop porn games (Score:2)
Now you'll be able to fap, fap, fap away until you beat level 32. And don't try and tell me someone won't try this.
Super Power Glove? (Score:2)
Everything old is new again :-) Admittedly, the mechanism is somewhat more advanced going by TFA (the MS version uses doppler shift rather than triangulation per se, so it can use a single mic) :
From TFA:
"In the case of SoundWave, your computerâ(TM)s built-in speaker is used to emit ultrasonic (18-22KHz) sound waves, which change frequency depending on where your hand (or body) is in relation to the computer. This change in frequency is measured by your computerâ(TM)s built-in microphone, and then
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Microsoft creates Kinect-like system using your laptop’s built-in speaker & microphone
By Sebastian Anthony on May 7, 2012 at 9:02 am
SoundWave: Sound-based motion detection from Microsoft Research
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Not one to be outdone by Disney’s any-surface touch interface, Microsoft Research, working with the University of Washington, has developed a Ki