What Employee Lock-In Means At Facebook 391
theodp writes "In the early days of Facebook, the company would go into what CEO Mark Zuckerberg called lockdown, where no one is supposed to leave until the task at hand is done. Speaking on Saturday at Startup School 2013, CNET reports, Mark Zuckerberg remarked that the practice persists to this day. Facebook doesn't lock people in the office, but it comes "as close to that as we can legally get," Zuckerberg said to an eruption from the crowd. The lockdown isn't the first at-home-in-a-Bangladesh-garment-factory management technique Zuck's touted at Startup School. Back in 2007, Zuckerberg drew fire for advising company founders "you should only hire young people with technical expertise" if they want to be successful. And while there are no reports of Facebook hiring 9-year-old bosses yet, the LA Times reports that only young undocumented immigrants are welcome at the hackathon hosted by Zuckerberg's FWD.us next month where "tech CEO's like Mark Zuckerberg, Reid Hoffman, Drew Houston and Andrew Mason will be sitting side-by-side with undocumented youth [with technical expertise] creating tech products to help the immigration reform movement" (invitation to 'day (and night) of working')."
Illegal, Not Undocumented. (Score:5, Insightful)
Why are illegal immigrants being called undocumented? The are documented, by their countries of origin. The reason they are undocumented in the US is because they are here ILLEGALLY. They have no right to claim legal status when they did not go through the proper legal process. IMO, these people are brazenly flouting our immigration laws without any fear of prosecution which only encourages more illegal immigration. This has to stop.
Illegal is illegal.
Re:Illegal, Not Undocumented. (Score:5, Insightful)
It is to obscure the fact that they are in the USA illegally. One way to win an argument is to change the terms or the definition of the terms. If the terms "illegal alien" or "illegal immigrant" were to persist the anti-amnesty position would prevail. Since the the accepted term is now "undocumented immigrant" has become the term used, the pro-amnesty position will win on this issue. The actual and most dramatic losers will be the legal immigrants--those people who applied for permission to enter the USA and applied through the system to become USA citizen. (And they are typically against illegal immigration.)
Re:Illegal, Not Undocumented. (Score:5, Insightful)
One way to win an argument is to change the terms or the definition of the terms.
Nothing "won" that way ever turns out well in the end. The practice is one reason the US has so many batshit insane laws like the War on Some Drugs that don't stand up to analysis, and continues to keep these laws even after this is well known.
The lack of rationality will have been the root cause of our downfall.
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It is to obscure the fact that they are in the USA illegally.
Partly. It is also because words have connotations beyond their direct meaning. "Illegal" tends to imply that something is also wrong or immoral. Why else would our wise and noble political leaders make it illegal? But many of us feel that a free society should welcome people that want to come and make a better life for themselves. Immigration (even when illegal) is a positive good, benefiting both America, and the families of the immigrants. The anti-Latino prejudices of today are no different than t
Re:Illegal, Not Undocumented. (Score:5, Interesting)
The anti-Latino prejudices of today are no different than the anti-Asian, anti-Jew, anti-Irish, and anti-German prejudices of the past.
Except for, you know, that part where the Asians, Jews, Irish, Germans, etc. did their paperwork to get in. If they didn't, they weren't let in. Apparently Spanish-speaking immigrants are "more special" and don't have to immigrate properly.
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A whole lot of Europeans arrived in America with almost no money and quickly stole the land away from the original inhabitants. That is why today their descendants are still worried that someone else will use the same tricks on them.
Re:Illegal, Not Undocumented. (Score:5, Insightful)
I think the majority of us feel that way. Which is why we created a system by which people can immigrate to the United States. My wife did it, my grandfather did it, about a million people per year do it. So, why should we reward people who do it illegally by giving them a free pass, while punishing those who do it legally by making them do all the paperwork and pay fees?
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It is to obscure the fact that they are in the USA illegally.
Partly. It is also because words have connotations beyond their direct meaning. "Illegal" tends to imply that something is also wrong or immoral. Why else would our wise and noble political leaders make it illegal? But many of us feel that a free society should welcome people that want to come and make a better life for themselves.
Agreed, and a legal avenue for such a pursuit exists for anyone wishing it. QED.
Re:Illegal, Not Undocumented. (Score:4, Insightful)
No AC , 'Undocumented' means status cannot be determined. For example, family moved here illegaly but baby is born within US borders in a shack without a birth certificate. The baby is then 'undocumented'.
Naturalised US citizen who lost passport, then became homeless and ended up the other side of the country with amnesia = Undocumented.
There is a difference. Unless, any immigration is proved in court to be illegal, it is undocumented. Innocent until proven guilty, remember?
Re:Illegal, Not Undocumented. (Score:4, Insightful)
I might be wrong, but I suspect the vast majority of the people called "undocumented" in the mass media were not "born without a birth certificate" or "lost their passport".
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I could agree with your terminology for the word 'Undocumented' (and there are more reasons for that), but that is not the point for this article. It seems that the article is mentioning the majority -- those who immigrated into the country (may be legal at first) and now are illegal (most likely by intention). To me, the intention of the word used in the article is to attempt to avoid discrimination but it raises other questions. The GP post shows that the word used is less aggressive, underrated, and sor
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For example, family moved here illegaly but baby is born within US borders in a shack without a birth certificate. The baby is then 'undocumented'.
And then the baby is not an immigrant, so the term "undocumented immigrant" doesn't apply.
Naturalised US citizen who lost passport, then became homeless and ended up the other side of the country with amnesia = Undocumented.
That happens so frequently that the number of such people is far greater than the number of people who knowingly come to the US illegally.
Unless, any immigration is proved in court to be illegal, it is undocumented. Innocent until proven guilty, remember?
You're being silly. This is not a court. If you prefer we can use the term "alleged illegal immigrant".
Re:Bullshit (Score:4, Funny)
It's transparent and red? I think we've just discovered the Invisible Pink Unicorn equivalent of the devil...!
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You're being factually incorrect
Where is the GP being factually incorrect?
You don't actually have to accuse someone of "lying" if they merely have a different opinion to you!
Now you're contradicting yourself. Is the meaning of "undocumented immigrant" a question of fact or opinion?
The term is so widely, and so clearly, used as a synonym for illegal alien, that I don't consider it a matter of opinion. You are technically correct though in saying it doesn't mean the GP is lying, since lying is defined as deliberately telling a falsehood. The alternative is the the GP is ignorant enough to believe it's true.
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Ding ding ding! We have a winner! Todays "Occam's Razor" prize goes to ebno-10db!
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I assure you the Mongols under the khans would have dealt with Marco quite harshly if they hadn't wanted him around. Should we adopt a similar policy? Personally I'm the soft-hearted kind that prefers deportation to execution.
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Why are illegal immigrants being called undocumented? The are documented, by their countries of origin. The reason they are undocumented in the US is because they are here ILLEGALLY. They have no right to claim legal status when they did not go through the proper legal process. IMO, these people are brazenly flouting our immigration laws without any fear of prosecution which only encourages more illegal immigration. This has to stop.
Illegal is illegal.
Not in the US. Illegal is only applied when there isn't an upside for those assigning the labels not doing so. Illegal war? Nope, those are opportunities to increase employment across a suite of contractor companies! Illegal immigrants? No! They're undocumented workers! (With legal family members who can vote!) Or maybe they're migrant workers! (Everyone likes inexpensive strawberries, after all!) Illegal financial transactions at megabanks? No! They're financial irregularies that will be investigated, afte
Re:Illegal, Not Undocumented. (Score:5, Insightful)
The USA cannot afford to send them "home". Just getting angry about it hasn't helped for the last century+ either.
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No, no, taking inspiration from how well the "send freed slaves back to Liberia" [wikipedia.org] movement worked in the 1800's, the immigration-insane are queuing up to do something like all over again in the 21st century.
"Of course history repeats itself. Motherfuckers don't listen."
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You know, this is about illegal immigrants at Facebook. I believe that Facebook is, in fact, a corporation.
Re:Illegal, Not Undocumented. (Score:5, Insightful)
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so lets get this right - Zuckerburg et al will be doing some coding (well, I assume Zuck will be watching and 'supervising') with some "undocumented" immigrants all in one room.
I for one would be enquiring about a reward for snitching about the whereabouts of a load of illegal immigrants to the authorities.
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Because people in the USA are "presumed innocent until proven guilty by a court of law". Their presence on US soil *may* be illegal, but that has not yet been determined.
Re:Illegal, Not Undocumented. (Score:5, Insightful)
For immigration activists to call illegal immigrants "undocumented foreign workers" would be like if marijuana legalization activists called marijuana an "undocumented plan", or if the NRA referred to assault rifles as "undocumented firearms".
It's quite clear to me that they're pushing to destroy the working class in this country by flooding us with cheap labor and they're trying to control the language to achieve their goal.
It's hard to believe that back in the day, Henry Ford was proud to say that people who built his company's cars could afford to buy them.
Re:Illegal, Not Undocumented. (Score:4, Interesting)
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Great idea!
I'm quite certain the Native Americans would love to have their country back and see all the descendants of those assholes who slaughtered their people and took their land deported. I wouldn't hold my breath on that readmission line moving too fast, though.
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I'm quite certain the Native Americans would love to have their country back and see all the descendants of those assholes who slaughtered their people and took their land deported.
Which "Native Americans" (BTW, most prefer to be called Indians) are you referring to? Are you concerned about the territory that the Navajo and Apache stole from the Zuni and other peoples who've been in the Southwest longer? How about the parts of what's now South Dakota that were grabbed by the Lakota? The Ohio river valley that the Haudenosaunee took by war from the Miami and Shawnee?
Re:Illegal, Not Undocumented. (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Illegal, Not Undocumented. (Score:4, Interesting)
Having accidentally been born somewhere shouldn't give you special privileges.
Good idea. Let's get rid of the birthright citizenship that ensured that former slaves were citizens, and also ensures that the children of illegal aliens who were born here are US citizens. Do you prefer that we abandon jus soli in favor of jus sanguinis, so that people whose families have been in this country for generations are not citizens? Or should everyone just be stateless until such time as some country decides to grant them citizenship?
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There's 12 million of them (that we know of). I'd consider that a significant part of the population (4% or so). The "culture" part of your comment pretty much gives away your 'white power' attitude.
Re:Because "Illegal" is a stand-in for racial slur (Score:5, Informative)
It's not a slur for me. I honestly couldn't care less what race/ethnicity someone in this country is. Here's what anger me about illegal immigration:
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Indeed. But the solution is not to participate in enforcing tyrannical laws anyways. Would you have returned escaped slaves to bondage? It was the law after all. Would you have helped send Jews to the camps? It was the law after all.
"Lex iniusta non est lex"
Re:Because "Illegal" is a stand-in for racial slur (Score:4, Interesting)
A few points. First, I don't consider our right to control who enters our borders to be tyrannical. (I do agree that there are cases where enforcing the law is immoral, as with the examples you gave.)
I'd also be more accepting of having unenforced laws on the books if it was for very brief periods. But instead what we seem to end up with is a legal code that monotonically grows. I see that as incompatible with the doctrine that "ignorance of the law is no excuse". Our legal code is so large now that we basically have ex post facto laws: the government can always find something to arrest anyone for, if they really care to. To me this is a great evil.
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shouldn't the word also "Illegal" refer to people who've committed bank fraud, theft, murder, rape or other heinous crimes?
If you prefer, but I think "criminal" or "felon" are better words. By comparison the word "illegal" is pretty mild, as it can refer to something as minor as a civil violation. Do you think we should use the milder term to refer to people who've committed bank fraud, theft, murder, rape or other heinous crimes?
Typical left-wing mud slinging (Score:3)
It's always a sign of the weakness of a left-wing political argument when advocates for a position overtly or more subtly make opposition to their positions a symptom of or an overt act of "racism".
The debate surrounding immigration is a great example of this. If you are opposed to illegal immigration (that is, bypassing border controls, overstaying a visa, working without work permission, etc) you are increasingly labeled racist, presumably because you aren't really opposed to migrant labor, you're oppose
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Citizenship is just a title. Don't ever delude yourself to think that you earned it, or that it is something that you deserve because of some virtue you maintain.
I am a legal immigrant. After years of hard work I earned my permanent residency. And in a few years from now, I will apply for citizenship.
I think it's pretty fair to say that once I am naturalized, I will have earned it. I spend years in getting an education which allowed me to get hired by a US company. I worked hard to be moved to the US. I worked hard while the company applied for permanent residency. And I continue to work hard as an LPR.
Being pushed out by your mom in the right place does not mak
Young stupid people (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe you need young people, because they are stupid enough to think that spending hours for your employer is a great way to spend the precious little free time you'll have in your life. I used to think it was cool to spend 3-4 days at a demo party just hacking away. Now I would rather sleep, exercise and keep myself in good shape without worrying about crashing and trying to make up for lack of sleep.
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Who''s stupid? (Score:2, Interesting)
Not stupid, but desperate. Getting a well-paid job isn't easy these times, you know.
Well paid?
If you consider all the hours, stress, and bullshit one has to put up with from billionaires who got real lucky, the pay in software development sucks.
I have a relative who is an electrician for a utility. He works less annual hours but with the storm overtime and shift differentials, he pulls in over $100K (after union dues) - AND he has a pension.
AND his job can't get off-shored.
Sure there are some late nights freezing his ass off, but at least he's PAID for it. Oh, and at 50+, he (and everyon
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Re:Young stupid people (Score:4, Insightful)
Stupid managers as well. Every few years my employer retries that idea only for the bug counts to skyrocket as the hours get later. After about an 11 hour day, more time is spent fixing bugs created by overtired employees than making actual progress.
Re:Young stupid people (Score:5, Insightful)
Young people also have little in the way of life experience that allows them to differentiate between "can we do this" and "should we do this".
Result; no qualms about implementing things on a technical basis without consideration to the social/moral consequences.
And before you vote me down; I'm not suggesting young people are less morally or socially concerned than anyone else. Just that, plainly, they do not have as much life experience. Many issues that the likes of FB raise are not new just because the technology is. It's the same old struggle between individual rights and the demands of big companies and authorities.
Re:Young stupid people (Score:4, Interesting)
This was a new thing to me, because I was used to being in college where I had to stay up all night if my project/homework wasn't done. If I hadn't worked with him, I would have stayed with the 'all-nighter' attitude for a long time, because I didn't know anything better.
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If you want me to work an "emergency" double shift these days then fine but be advised I won't be in tomorrow, and I'm too financially comfortable to be unnerved by a hollow threat of unemployment.
The problem is that many don't have that level of financial comfort, especially if they're young. It is difficult to have that level of comfort if you're married either, unless it is to somebody who also has a fairly high income and without a desire to go spending it.
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Let's face it, having a work life balance in no longer tolerated in corp America; hence the smartphones keeping one tied to their job 24/7 - and even on vacations.
Bullshit. Software development is still a profession, and there's no reason to put up with that. I sure as Hell don't, and have no problem finding jobs. The exception is your first job to break into the profession, where you should reasonably expect a crap job simply because the supply of people who would like to enter the profession, but haven't proven themselves yet, is so high.
Facebook is still very much centered in "first-job culture", but is trying to pay enough to keep people past their first coupl
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says the American whose country is basically built on borrowed money.
Bad summary (Score:5, Interesting)
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Sounds to me like a honeypot set up by US immigration, but maybe I'm just too cynical.
Re:Bad summary (Score:5, Insightful)
if only it WAS.
You see illegals picketing all the time in D.C.....why no crackdown/arrests/deportations?
Well, you see, America has what's called a "Two party system". One of the parties operates under the bleeding-heart assumption that illegal immigrants might actually be humans, and might actually vote for them. The other party isn't that optimistic; but likes its laborers cheap, expendable, and powerless.
(Also, when it comes to playing law-enforcement whack-a-mole, fighting the 'war on drugs' and getting some of that sweet, sweet, civil forfeiture action pays so much better than rounding up illegal mexicans.)
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Well established in your mind, maybe. The rest of us would like you to cite your (objective) source. Blaze, Fox News, World Net Daily are not sources, they're parodies.
How would you like to pay f
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But Zuckerberg needs the illegals to accomplish his "come as close to [locking people in the buildings as possible]"
so why isn't the meeting going to be busted? (Score:5, Insightful)
genuinely curious. if you have time to arrest and send people out for making remarks on twitter how come undocumented(I assume that's double speak for illegally working) immigrants can hold public meetings?
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Mostly because the First Amendment right to assembly is not restricted to US citizens [lewrockwell.com].
Re:so why isn't the meeting going to be busted? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think attendance at a bank robber conventions is sufficient to arrest someone. You'd need a warrant for that person's arrest, meaning reasonable suspicion he had actually robbed a bank.
Put another way, arresting people just because they chose to attend a gathering *is* an infringement of their right to assembly. The exception being if the gathering itself is criminal, e.g. a conspiracy meeting or a riot.
Re:so why isn't the meeting going to be busted? (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe because being undocumented has nothing to do with being here illegally? While its possible, its not a given, as many different situations can cause someone to become an undocumented individual who cannot prove their citizenship or right to be in the country. Lucky we're not all jerks and deport people without due cause.
Illegal != Undocumented (Score:4, Informative)
I assume that's double speak for illegally working
Undocumented means exactly what it you think the word means. It means there is no documentation available to prove the person's citizenship status. If I were to lose certain important documents, I would be undocumented and I'm a US citizen. Often immigrants who are here illegally are also undocumented but undocumented does not mean illegal and illegal does not mean undocumented.
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Illegal == undocumented in the context of this discussion. No one engaged in this discussion is interested in deporting someone who lost his social security card.
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Actually, I'm sure there are some who are; I was using hyperbole when I said "No one". But I haven't come across anyone like that, personally.
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All the more reason to stop using the term "undocumented immigrant" when the issue is illegal immigrants. I know of no one opposed to helping people find their paperwork, but people who are here illegally is another story.
If all this is true (Score:4, Insightful)
and I admit to not reading the many links, but taking the article at face value (dangerous I know)
BUT
if all of it is true and accurate, it sounds like Mr. Z is a world-class asshole and is trying to bring back the dark days of robber barons building their wealth on the backs/lives of indentured servants...
Yet one more reason (like you needed another really) not to use Facebook
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Re:If all this is true (Score:4, Insightful)
Because it's a town full of people with specializations in a growth field (so they think its as easy for anyone else as they perceived it to be), and then they became rich so now there worldviews will never be challenged, nor will they ever experience any of the issues anyone else ever does.
As was noted in an article on the Great Depression, perspective colors everything: if you were rich and didn't lose everything, and lived in the right neighbourhood then "there were no bread lines".
Highly educated slaves (Score:5, Insightful)
That's the true goal of these companies, and a big reason they're all so keen on H1B1.
These big tech fucks move into a town, drive the real estate prices sky-high so you basically have to be upper management to own a place outside the "campus", and if not then you must either live well outside the critical radius and spend at least an hour commuting (good luck with your family), or opt to live within company provided housing ( http://www.sfgate.com/business/bottomline/article/Facebook-partner-to-build-Menlo-Park-housing-4860826.php [sfgate.com] ).
But this has been done before: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town [wikipedia.org]. Sigh. So wearisome.
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Mod parent +1 Insightful (Score:2)
It seems completely within the realm of possibility to have the workers paid in FaceBucks, GoogleBooty, MicroCents, etc. within a few decades. These would probably start as in-world currency for the various gaming platforms hosted by these companies, but spread outward from there to purchase food and shelter at company-owned places.
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In the US, IT workers in startups will sometimes take very low compensation in exchange for stock options. We do have minimum wage laws, but above and beyond those, you can offer many types of "compensation" to attract workers -- retirement plan, corporate car, etc.
So imagine that in 2020, tech companies start cutting back cash compensation in exchange for alternatives which, on the face of it, have greater value: e.g., I can either give you $1000, or $3000 equivalent of company dollars which you can use t
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These big tech fucks move into a town, drive the real estate prices sky-high
Right. I bet that happens all the time. Just don't in places that attract them then.
tl;dr (Score:5, Interesting)
tl;dr - if you want to be a huge success in business, you need to be an a**hole
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Zuckerberg (Score:5, Interesting)
Sounds like he figured out the truth (Score:4, Insightful)
Sounds like ZB figured out the truth about America and is acting upon it. The only way to hire people is to ensure that they have little ability to appeal to the American court system.
Re:Sounds like he figured out the truth (Score:5, Insightful)
No idea how you managed to get a -1 for that.. It's the reason I didn't move to the US long ago (the balance between the worker and employer is screwed, and it's only become worse as time has progressed).. It does seem as though some corporates really are trying to set up an environment that is very close to indentured servitude. Natural citizens still have legal privileges that trump the desires of the corporates for cheap labour, so they want to import.
That, really, is a crappy way to do business. It'll work in a short term, but ends up as a race to the bottom, and probable collapse far earlier than necessary (wasting a lot of long term productivity and profit).
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
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Because when someone starts doing something that makes them a lot of money, whatever methods they are using has this really nasty tendency to spread like a disease. While this particular flavor of CEO may not be affecting you, its all together possible he's going to end up rubbing off on some other flavor of CEO who is. And if not you, someone you care about.
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Because other companies will follow suit if Facebook is successful in this tactic. You're extremely naive to think that this will only ever happen at Facebook, etc.
Zuckerberg H. Christ (Score:3, Insightful)
I think bosses prefer hiring HB-1s and illegals because it gives them something powerful to hold over the employees head. If the employee feels secure in their life, then they are more likely to challenge the employer and stand up for reasonable rights. So, "immigration reform" to these companies is a way for them to legalize slavery while importing people whose only goal is to export as much of their paycheck back to their home countries as possible.
And seriously, employee lock-ins? Why do people put up with that crap? Is working at a social media company, which will most like be replaced by another social media company within five years, some great honor? People need to have some respect for themselves.
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I've always had very mixed feelings about unions, and never had any desire to join one. Something like that would change my mind. If I can dream, I'd love to see Facebook shut down by a strike, with the strikers returning only if strict work rules are implemented.
let the hysteria commence (Score:5, Informative)
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I worked for a place like that (Score:3)
I worked for a place like that. It went out of business when all the employees got fed up, found new jobs and left.
A tried and true strategy. (Score:2)
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
Locking the Doors? (Score:2)
So is that why he likes illegals so much? He cannot legally lock the doors, but he can send a few border patrol cops after anyone who leaves before he says they can?
We call them "Cannonball Run" (Score:5, Interesting)
We have Cannonball Runs, where our developers and engineers work long days, enjoy company-provided, catered meals, and concierge services to help in their absence at home, and of course preems, which are financial incentives for accelerating the schedule.
It's about as far from what this asshole is doing as you can get, but we get fantastic results, and the work product is very high quality. That's why I spend the money to do it. It does cost money - about $5k/day for a team of 10 people (I refuse to call them "resources").
So Zuck's campaign contribs for amnesty? (Score:2)
Are pretty much just a bribe to Congress and Obama to let him continue to be a white slaver. DREAM act my ass.
why would you work in fb or apple? (Score:2)
When there is a neighbor openly advertising just how hard it strives to keep employees happy? I made a jump myself after concluding that the technology is interesting but there is nothing I. It for me.
Undocumented? (Score:2)
I'm there, dude.
Oh, wait...
why not just deport? (Score:3)
Seriously. Show up at invitations to illegal aliens like this and arrest all those who are here illegally. Then fine the crap out of whoever sponsored such an event. Zuck is making money off of slave labor yet no one wants to call him out on his tactics?
company of 20-year-olds run by one (Score:2)
Beware such advice.... (Score:3)
Re:Breaking the law (Score:5, Insightful)
Admitting to age discrimination are we?
Of course not. Our HR department's compliance specialists would love to assure you that no such violations are taking place. Now, as an unfortunate matter of fact, old, uncool, balding sickies with 'families' and 'lives outside work' happen to be a poor fit for our company culture, and our hiring process takes ensuring the continuation of the company's innovative culture very seriously; but all applications are given the consideration that the law requires.
HR makes it so we get HB1 workers that we can (Score:2)
HR makes it so we get HB1 workers that we can now work 24/7 with are new on site houseing and if they don't want to work 24/7 then they can just have there hb1 pulled and be kicked out.
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You want a project done fast, offer incentive...
He does offer an incentive. Either work until you're dead tired or you're fired. And that partnered with the collusive hiring practices [mercurynews.com] that go on in Silicon Valley (and you'd be naive to think only Apple, Google and Intel are the only ones doing this rather than just being the only ones caught doing it) you'll likely be facing a hard time getting another job.