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Unicode Consortium Looks At Symbols For Allergies 194

AmiMoJo writes: A proposal (PDF) submitted by a Google engineer to the Unicode Consortium asks that food allergies get their own emojis and be added to the standard. The proposal suggests the addition of peanuts, soybeans, buckwheat, sesame seeds, kiwi fruit, celery, lupin beans, mustard, tree nuts, eggs, milk products and gluten. According to TNW: "This proposal will take a little longer to become reality — it's still in very early stages and needs to be reviewed by the Unicode Consortium before it can move forward, but it'll be a great way for those with allergies to quickly express them."
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Unicode Consortium Looks At Symbols For Allergies

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 02, 2015 @07:09PM (#50237023)

    And they have clearly passed it.
    But let’s keep going and see what happens.

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Do they have a codepoint for "jumping over a shark" yet?

    • by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @07:45PM (#50237209)

      And they have clearly passed it.

      Standards should formalize existing, established practices. They should not make stuff up and hope people like it. These allegycons should be implemented as image icons, and if people adopt them, and they are shown to be useful, then, and only then, should they be considered for incorporation into the standard. We don't need another trigraph debacle.

      • by raymorris ( 2726007 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @08:13PM (#50237351) Journal

        At least some of these symbols ARE in common use already, often printed so small that you don't notice them if you're not looking for them. For example, I never knew that the gluten-free symbol existed until my wife was diagnosed with celiac disease (gluten intolerance) . Now that I know what to look for, I see the symbol quite often; sometimes on packaged foods and sometimes on menus.

        Checking a few of the products in my pantry right now, I see that it's about evenly split between the symbol and the words "gluten free". Fritos for example, use the words. Chex cereal has the words and a _different_ symbol. Standardization would make shopping easier, faster and safer.

        That said, standardizing WHERE on the package this information is found would be the most useful. It's most often listed immediately after the standard ingredient listing, but there is a lot of variation so we have to carefully examine all around the whole package looking for one of the two pictorial symbols, or the words "gluten free", or the circled GF symbol, or the words "gluten free". The most common is the most useful - an icon of a wheat stalk with the crossed out circle (similar to the "no smoking" symbol).

        • Unfortunately, the 'standardization' part is where this proposal seems most challenged(though, in principle it seems like a good idea). Section C-2) of the proposal form is:

          "2. Has contact been made to members of the user community (for example: National Body, user groups of the script or characters, other experts, etc.)? "

          The submitter answers 'No'. That's a problem. The Unicode Consortium standardizes the codepoint representation of glyphs across systems; but they have zero power(and aren't supposed
  • by fuzzyfuzzyfungus ( 1223518 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @07:28PM (#50237129) Journal
    This doesn't seem like an intrinsically bad idea; things like the GHS hazard pictograms, DIN 4844-2, ISO 3864, TSCA marks, and similar such things seem like perfectly reasonable additions to Unicode(some of them are already there).

    What seems like more of a problem is the idea that the Unicode Consortium is out there fishing for ideas. A project of that scope has more than enough backlog to work through; what possible benefit could there be in putzing around internally with ideas for stuff that hasn't been codified by any relevant user groups, standards bodies, experts, national standards, etc? If they think that they have free time for that, they probably aren't looking hard enough at the stew of natural languages and commonly used symbols out there.

    The original round of unicode-ified emoji, while puerile and obnoxious, were at least a solid instance of one of the Consortium's functions: the symbols were in wide use; but saddled with a horrible mess of legacy encoding schemes and general awfulness, so the only thing to do was wade in, hand out code points, and hope that the legacy systems could be burned to the ground as soon as possible. Same reason why parts of Unicode have substantial amounts of duplication, single characters that should be represented as composites, and so on; because various legacy standards had to die.

    Here, though, there is no obvious existing standard being modeled on, nor any interoperability issue being solved. If somebody wants Unicode to have a picture of absolutely everything; maybe they should go work on graphics format standards.
    • The current situation is someone (from google) submitted a request to unicode consortium, not unicode consortium looking for new symbols outside
    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      The proposal comes from a Google engineer who has done all the work figuring out what symbols are needed and what they should look like. Now the Unicode consortium only needs to consider it, and perhaps suggest a few changes.

      As the proposal states, the major need here is to bridge the language barrier for important health information. It's actually a real pain for people with certain allergies to travel, because even if they memorize the characters for "peanuts" human beings find it hard to spot them in the

      • Yes, except that they didn't. They took a list of eight items (section 4.2.1.4 of the underlying CODEX STAN 1-1985), and presented a proposal for seven of them. What happened to the last? I don't know: perhaps they didn't figure out how to make a character for "Sulphite in concentrations of 10 mg/kg or more".

        They also missed section 5.2.1, irradiated foods, with a separate symbol.

    • things like the GHS hazard pictograms, DIN 4844-2, ISO 3864, TSCA marks, and similar such things seem like perfectly reasonable additions to Unicode

      No they don't, because they are pictograms with very specific visual appearances. Such things don't belong in a character set, because things in a character set are characters. Glyphs (visual presentation of characters) live in fonts and each font designer is free to represent them differently, as long as they're recognisable. If every font has to represent things in the same way, then they don't belong in a character set, they belong in a set of standard images.

      The other issue with this kind of cruft i

      • You go to war with the army you have

        What we have is Unicode and a good set of font fallbacks. What we don't have is an unspecified, unplanned, unwritten way to somehow insert a "pictogram" inside my stream of "glyphs".

        What we need is a way to draw shapes on a screen or piece of paper where a designer gets to pick roughly what they look like. Unicode does that, and therefore seems like an adequate tool for this job.

        • What we don't have is an unspecified, unplanned, unwritten way to somehow insert a "pictogram" inside my stream of "glyphs".

          No, I think we DO have an unspecified, unplanned way of doing that. Or maybe we DO have a specified way -- any of any number of markup languages.

          What we need is a way to draw shapes on a screen or piece of paper where a designer gets to pick roughly what they look like. Unicode does that,

          PostScript beat them to it, and I'm going to bet there are a lot of other systems out there for doing graphics. What we DON'T need is a "character" that looks like a peanut.

          You do realize that the person who uses the "character" for "peanut" doesn't get to "pick roughly" what it looks like when it is displayed, don't you? He gets whatever the guy who designed

  • by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @07:30PM (#50237139)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • by dargaud ( 518470 )
      Yes, this. If I wanted to communicate using little drawings I'd learn to read and write chinese.I find it much simpler to read the word 'peanut' than to try to remember and identify a potato-looking 8-pixel high symbol. As for remembering the keyboard combination to actually draw it, good luck. Oh, BTW, I hate icons too.
    • There's growing evidence that introducing small quantities of emojis daily actually helps lower the risk of a severe allergic reaction later on.

  • by dwywit ( 1109409 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @07:38PM (#50237177)

    There's already a snowflake symbol........

    • It's nowhere near special enough, though.

    • by sphealey ( 2855 )

      What's a few deaths by suffocation (self-drowning) compared to feeding moral self-righteousness?

      sPh

      • by dwywit ( 1109409 )

        Humour (in case you didn't realise that's what I was exercising) in the face of trauma is a common human reaction, and not necessarily a bad thing.

        FWIW, I have a diagnosed bee and shellfish allergy. One bee-sting in the right place, without treatment, and I'm dead. Not that it's likely, but were I to accidentally eat some seafood pate, that would also kill me - my throat would swell up to completely cut off breathing.

        So, just to be clear, I WAS MAKING A FUNNY!

        • by ihtoit ( 3393327 )

          any bee or wasp sting to the neck is potentially deadly and must be treated as such whether or not you're aware of the patient having an allergy.

          (I've been stung six times in the past three weeks by wasps, five of those were to the neck, one to the thigh. Why do the psychotic little cunts go for the neck??).

    • Although it may not be necessary to create allergy symbols, the existence of a similar-looking glyph is not a valid reason why. In Unicode, each code point corresponds to a particular abstract character, not glyph, so the snowflake symbol cannot be used for a food allergy symbol even if they look identical, because U+2744 means "snowflake" and not "food allergy."

      For example, Greek capital letter delta (U+0394) and the mathematical symbol delta (U+2206) usually look almost the same, but are completely differ

  • by Geoffrey.landis ( 926948 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @08:00PM (#50237281) Homepage

    I hate decyphering hieroglyphics. I propose that the unicode for "I have peanut allergies" should be the text string "I have peanut allergies."

    • by Kjella ( 173770 )

      I hate decyphering hieroglyphics. I propose that the unicode for "I have peanut allergies" should be the text string "I have peanut allergies."

      That works well for 1-2 billion people and not so well for the remaining 5-6 billion. While we're working on that universal language, a few universal "hieroglyphics" are useful and there's no law against writing elevator next to the elevator sign. Like say these [vectorstock.com], these [shutterstock.com], these [featurepics.com] or these [123rf.com].

      That said, allergens may be useful for store products but that's usually half the markings on a restaurant menu which typically can be stuff like vegetarian, vegan, hot, garlic and so on. And for many complete dishes many will

      • That works well for 1-2 billion people and not so well for the remaining 5-6 billion.

        I think it was obvious that the OP meant that the string would be written in whatever the local predominant language is, not always in English. Someone who doesn't speak English isn't going to write "I have a peanut allergy", they're going to write it in their own language. It would be very rare for such a person to be isolated to the point that nobody around them knows what he's saying, and if someone was going to go somewhere like that (vacation, etc) they'd carry a card with that sentence written on it

  • by dskoll ( 99328 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @08:01PM (#50237287) Homepage

    ... someone will send you an email which will be turned into Mojibake [wikipedia.org] and you'll discover that your correspondent is allergic to the Euro, the exclamation mark, the pound symbol, and to the Hebrew letter Gimel.

  • by manu0601 ( 2221348 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @08:30PM (#50237439)

    Adding random concepts as characters seems weird for alphabetical languages, where there is a limited character set used to form many words.

  • by Bringer128 ( 2261266 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @08:34PM (#50237469)

    https://modelviewculture.com/p... [modelviewculture.com]

    The above article shows how ridiculous it is to have these emojis in the Unicode standard when they are missing letters in multiple eastern alphabets.

    • Interesting read. Thanks for the link.

      • Actually that got posted top slashdot a while back, and pretty thoroughly taken apart.

        Firstly the unicode consortium is largely voluntary and relies on proposals for advancement. A large amount of the article is him complaining that no one's submitted a proposal. Secondly he got into a big argument (in the comments or another article) with someone from the same culture/background because they strongly disagreed on how the symbol in question should be dealt with.

        Expecting the unicode consortium to be magical

        • I deal with non-native English speakers on a daily basis as part of my job--and I'm married to one as well. Perhaps I don't have the complete picture, but I do think he's got some valid points.

        • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          He has valid points. Han unification has been a disaster and can't be easily fixed now, but it was done early on without enough consultation. It's all very well to suggest that someone should just submit a proposal, but that costs a lot of money and the ones that will really fix things tend to be rejected anyway.

          It is a serious problem that some people can't write their names in Unicode, or that software using Unicode can't ever hope to handle even the top 10 most common languages in the world properly with

  • by o_ferguson ( 836655 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @08:49PM (#50237541)
    The allergens listed are all common in children. The most common allergen for adults is shellfish, which isn't mentioned in this (apparently short-sighted) proposal.
    • I'm glad someone else noticed that. Not that it applies to me, since I've already learnt how to say "I can't eat crustaceans--I'm allergic" in about 12 languages.

  • Why do you need a different symbol for each allergy? Why not just one for allergies in general?

  • by msobkow ( 48369 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @10:05PM (#50237857) Homepage Journal

    The problem with pictograms is they don't mean squat to someone who doesn't already know what they mean. If that weren't the case, Egyptian Hieroglyphics would still be in active use...

    • The problem with pictograms is they don't mean squat to someone who doesn't already know what they mean.

      But people generally do know what they mean, even if they've never seen an emoji before. The emoji for "sheep" is a cartoon sheep. Grammar is another matter, of course...

      If that weren't the case, Egyptian Hieroglyphics would still be in active use...

      Hierogylphics aren't pictograms. The hieroglyphic symbol that looks like an eye doesn't mean "eye."

      • by ihtoit ( 3393327 )

        the symbol that looks like a snake wrapped around a tapered sword doesn't mean "Snake wrapped around a sword" either, it means "diabetes".

      • So does the emoji for sheep mean you're allergic to mutton, or that you're now a member of a fraternity, or that you have insomnia?

        • It means sheep, just like the English word "sheep" means sheep.

          I've now used the word "sheep" too many times for one day.

  • This is just like making fancy top level domain names like "fish" or calling security vulnerabilities "Shellshock". A professional engineering standard is ruined with cute hipster stuff.
    • This is just like making fancy top level domain names like "fish" or calling security vulnerabilities "Shellshock". A professional engineering standard is ruined with cute hipster stuff.

      True. A really professional engineering standard should include the fish allergy symbol as a TLD.

  • ... I'm allergic to emojis.

  • It would be as useful (possibly more so) to have icons to say something does NOT contain allergens. i.e. gluten free, lactose free etc. People buying gluten free food often look for a gluten free symbol (e.g. this one [coeliac.org.uk]) and only then scan the ingredients to look in more detail. So for every code they reserve for an allergen, there should be another code for the opposite - free from that allergen.
  • What would the point of this be? In general, Unicode standardizes codepoints and other abstract properties of characters, but it doesn't standardize how the character looks. U+0067 is "g", the "LATIN SMALL LETTER G", but exactly how that looks [wikimedia.org] depends on which font you're using. Or more relevant, many emoji are very different [medium.com] between Android and iOS. I'd think that symbols for food allergies need to look the same everywhere if the point is for them to be used as warnings on food packaging, menus, etc.
  • ... allergy to Anonymous Coward.
  • Are there locale-specific ways to refer to an allergy?
    Why do we need a font instead of a simple image?

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