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Jack Dorsey Criticizes Zuckerberg Over His Free-Speech Argument (bloomberg.com) 120

Twitter Chief Executive Officer Jack Dorsey called out his counterpart at Facebook, saying Mark Zuckerberg has a "major gap and flaw" in his argument for free speech on social media. From a report: "We talk a lot about speech and expression and we don't talk about reach enough, and we don't talk about amplification," Dorsey said at the Twitter News Summit in New York. "And reach and amplification was not represented in that speech." Zuckerberg gave a lengthy address at Georgetown University last week in which he explained that Facebook's approach to content -- which favors letting people say whatever they want -- is part of an American tradition of free speech in the marketplace of ideas. He evoked the civil rights movement and other grassroots campaigns that were allowed to spread because of free speech.

Like Twitter, Facebook's algorithm for sorting posts in a person's social media feed gives heavier weight to those that users share and comment on. Often that means the most incendiary or surprising messages find their way to the biggest audience. Other than addressing his algorithm, Zuckerberg didn't talk about the difference between content that naturally goes viral and promoted posts that people pay to send to a bigger audience. "It was a major gap and flaw in the substance he was getting across," Dorsey said.

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Jack Dorsey Criticizes Zuckerberg Over His Free-Speech Argument

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  • by forkfail ( 228161 ) on Friday October 25, 2019 @10:54AM (#59346246)

    Dorsey's position is basically: "Sure, you have freedom of speech, you can say whatever you want. But have no doubt, we own the town square now. So, sure, you're free to whisper in a proverbial back alley or abandoned lot, but if you don't freely conform to the approved worldview and position, we'll feel free to keep your disruptive and contemptible speech muted."

    • by UncleGizmo ( 462001 ) on Friday October 25, 2019 @11:33AM (#59346440)

      Yeah, I'm not so sure. Media companies have always "owned the town square" including when the town square had printed notices posted in it. Zuck was engaging in some creative revisionist history, as if Facebook was created for a noble cause other than rating college students' hotness, decorum be damned.

      Dorsey's point, and a good one, is that with these platforms, it's about more than someone's approved / contemptible worldview, it's also about the need to recognize that this information can be hyper-amplified, whether true or not, or disruptive or not, and that can have serious consequences.

      I get it, he's Zuck's competitor, but he at least seems to understand the nuance of how these platforms can be used for good/evil, and Zuck just seems to want to pacify everyone with platitudes so he can get back to running things the way he wants.

      • by RedK ( 112790 ) on Friday October 25, 2019 @12:10PM (#59346646)

        it's also about the need to recognize that this information can be hyper-amplified, whether true or not, or disruptive or not, and that can have serious consequences.

        Selective amplification rather than organic can also have serious consequences. In fact, radicalization starts with isolation of individuals. Engagement promotes deradicalization. So Jack is quite wrong here. He's too afraid of amplify wrong ideas, not understanding that amplifying those wrong ideas will promote the kind of open discussion that can change minds in the first place.

        • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          It's the exact opposite, radicalisation begins with inclusion.

          They offer the individual a community, an alternative to the rejection and loneliness that they are experiencing elsewhere.

          • by RedK ( 112790 )

            It's the exact opposite, radicalisation begins with inclusion.

            This is wrong. Inclusion in a wider audience that is actually diverse (not an echo chamber) deradicalizaes individuals and promotes actual discussion.

            You're thinking of rejection of individuals from the greater sphere of public discourse which pushes them into fringe communities. The more fringe, the more radicalized they become.

            So no, it's exactly like I said, not the opposite as you think.

            an alternative to the rejection

            Wait, did you just claim in the same post that "radicalisation begins with inclusion" and that "rejection results in

            • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

              You are mistaken on both fronts.

              Radicalisation works by bringing people in to the radical group. Of course at first it's all very tame, lots of jokes and memes. 4chan is an example, lots of anime and video games and porn as well as the politics board.

              The rejection is from other non-radical groups. It often begins in real life with bullying at school and the like. Later the radicals push it to get that person to disengage from friends and family and instead live in their world, which is how they get to the p

              • Youâ(TM)ve just described Antifa members to a T.

              • Do you have any research to back up your claims? Because what you are saying goes against a decade or so of research on the topic.
                Whether you are starting with McCauley and Moskalenko, with Silva, or with the USAID, they all agree that isolating and excluding people is a major factor in radicalization. This follows other psychology research that says that loneliness leads to despair and desperation.

                In fact, most anti-radicalization plans, such as the one from the Center for the Prevention of Radicalizatio

            • by mishehu ( 712452 )

              This is wrong. Inclusion in a wider audience that is actually diverse (not an echo chamber) deradicalizaes individuals and promotes actual discussion.

              And herein lies the fault in your viewpoint: You are oblivious to how platforms like Facebook and Twitter function. You speak of a utopia of a marketplace of ideas, when in reality it is, on the grand scale, all siloed.

        • He's too afraid of amplify wrong ideas

          Wrong Ideas?

          Labeling ideas as right or wrong leads to some pretty shitty places.

        • When I see opinion's like Dorsey's, what I actually see is a very elitist attitude that there exists some massive group of people who just aren't smart enough to see how these ideas are wrong, and they need to be protected from their own stupidity. I for one, have no problems with neo-Nazis being able to spout their views in any forum - I'm quite comfortable that a significant majority of people will reject those ideas. I'm not sure why Dorsey and primarily SJWs hold such a poor view of their fellow citiz
      • by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Friday October 25, 2019 @12:31PM (#59346754)

        Media companies have always "owned the town square"

        The concentration of ownership in social media is far greater than it ever was in paper media. Even in the days of Hearst and Pulitzer, there were thousands of independent newspapers.

        Just because corporations controlled speech in the past, doesn't mean it was a good idea, and doesn't mean they should do the same today. Print journalists ignored great chasms of racial injustice and championed aggressive wars based on lies and distortion. It was not a "golden age" of free expression.

        Zuck was engaging in some creative revisionist history, as if Facebook was created for a noble cause

        Facebook's origins are irrelevant. What matters is the reality of what it is today. This isn't about Zuckerberg's personal morality.

      • I get it, he's Zuck's competitor, but he at least seems to understand the nuance of how these platforms can be used for good/evil, and Zuck just seems to want to pacify everyone with platitudes so he can get back to running things the way he wants.

        First, define good/evil. Once you're done with that, then we can talk about "nuance"...

      • In the 1970s, people went into malls to protest outside businesses they didn't like. The malls, privately owned, kicked them out. The protesters took them to court.

        They argued the malls functioned as modern town squares, and so should have the First Amendment applied. The Supreme Court disagreed, this is private property, and the First Amendment bans government censorship, not private. Your right to free speech carries no obligation for others to assist you with messages they disagree with.

        It's ironic m

      • The truth comes out when you see how these companies react to China. FB said no to China, China said no to twitter. So FB passed the test. Most companies fail the test.

        Dorsey is an operative, meaning he wants to control the Narrative so he will defend his position, Zuck is showing (saying) he is not an operative. Being an operative is ok if you are a media company but not if you are the town square.
    • by bigpat ( 158134 ) on Friday October 25, 2019 @11:38AM (#59346462)

      "Often that means the most incendiary or surprising messages find their way to the biggest audience. "

      The civil rights movement was incendiary... and surprising for most segregated white Americans to find out that their neighbors a few miles away were being harmed by that segregation. Separate was not equal. It took acts of mass protest over years and years to get enough attention to that issue to make a difference. Millions of Americans were harmed in the years and years that it took trying to get the word out.

      All meaningful political speech falls under the category of "incendiary and surprising". Politics and political speech is literally war by other means.

      As long as we are trying to avoid real war and real civil war then we should be trying to allow as much speech, even incendiary speech, as possible.

      People can choose their filters, the problem in society is when the filters choose the people.

      • Great points. I think we need to teach people to be tougher - "sticks and stones" was an oft repeated phrase in my childhood, and I feel it very much helped build me into a resilient person. Now, I see this phrase frequently derided on twitter, and people advocating that words are no different from physical violence (horrifying). You can learn to be bigger than words, there is no such option for fists/sticks/guns/etc.

        I really think the modern left / SJW approach is unfortunately very harmful to the pe
    • We've been censoring who gets to speak in the town square for centuries. This stuff is not some new threat to our democracy. It's the usual decay that we've always faced and why we've been told many times that we must defend our freedom or we'll lose it.

    • Yeah, it sounds like "guided" censorship. The world is way too complicated to have one company decide which "free speech"should be allowed.

    • Given Zuckâ(TM)s business model of printing lies by political adds, Iâ(TM)m thinking of running for County supervisor and my campaign promise is that I will force Zuck from licking soiled sheets at brothels, Vote for Me !
  • Whether it gets out to 10 people or 10 million the real problem is people that are too stupid to tell the difference or if they believe it simply bother to verify it.
    • Appeals to emotion are frustratingly like that.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by rickb928 ( 945187 )

      "real problem is people that are too stupid to tell the difference or if they believe it simply bother to verify it."

      Or, plainly, censorship and suppression are as necessary as reach and amplification.

      Not freedom. That's not being supported with these arguments. And for further clarification, 'too stupid to tell the difference' is essentially the argument that 'I'm right, you're wrong, and you do not deserve to be heard'. That's also not freedom.

      • No it's not. Not even remotely. A statement posted on facebook is either true or false and whether you want to believe it or not has no bearing on that. It's also not terribly difficult to take the time to verify. Freedom is letting you hear whatever's said regardless of its merit. Our responsibility has always been to tell the difference between the lies and the truth.
        • And the statements not posted? Suppressed, Not shown to you, never aware. Censorship. Not freedom. And not just Facebook. This is industry wide by all accounts. The real issue is 'why'. Until we understand that we can't really address the issue.

    • Whether it gets out to 10 people or 10 million the real problem is people that are too stupid to tell the difference or if they believe it simply bother to verify it.

      Right, and as we know, half of the people are more stupid than average (as worrying as it is unsurprising) and they make it shitty for the rest of us. So we really need to think about how we as a society work with this, without sending anyone to re-education camps, instead of blindingly hiding behind free speech arguments.

      • So we have to censor and suppress in order to not get to re-education camps? Sorry, but the offensiveness of speech is not a factor—or, at least, shouldn’t be a factor—when deciding whether the First Amendment protects expression. This neutrality principle borrows from a stirring maxim often attributed to Voltaire: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” Unfortunately, determining the "truth" or what is factual is very difficult in s
        • So we have to censor and suppress in order to not get to re-education camps? Sorry, but the offensiveness of speech is not a factorâ"or, at least, shouldnâ(TM)t be a factorâ"when deciding whether the First Amendment protects expression.

          Yeah, maybe? I mean this is what we've done here on slashdot after all. Some pretty terrible opinions do get through occasionally but generally all the GNAA and other outright horseshit gets modded below zero and we don't have to deal with it. In any case, this has nothing to do with the 1st Amendment, /. (or twitter or facebook) has no responsibility to protect anyone's expression.

          I'm for free speech too, but this is what I mean by hiding behind it immediately. Truth can be hard to determine, but something

          • Sorry, but we have elected officials of a major party attempting to tell twitter that they must ban the president of the United States from it's platform because their opinion is that he is a white supremacist/racist/misogynist/etc. This is not individual users deciding to "tune" out speech they do not care for, but deliberate attempted censorship of a message that many do want to be exposed to. While I did not vote for the president, I am certainly not comfortable with government regulated censorship. The
      • by Shotgun ( 30919 )

        Right, and as we know, half of the people are more stupid than average (as worrying as it is unsurprising) and they make it shitty for the rest of us. So we really need to think about how we as a society work with this, without sending anyone to re-education camps, instead of blindingly hiding behind free speech arguments.

        And, if you decide that you get the be the one that decides which people belong to which half, you have become a demon.

    • No, retard.

      People choosing to believe or disbelieve something, on their own is a good thing.
      ESPECIALLY if you disagree with what others believe.

  • >> Like Twitter, Facebook's algorithm for sorting posts in a person's social media feed gives heavier weight to those that users share and comment on.

    Maybe that's the problem. Instead of trying to tweak your algorithm to only show double-plus or state-approved content, just switch (back) to a display that lists everything some entity published in chronological order.
    • Agree. And let me prioritize my friends and who I see first and foremost. It's never about my freedom with these guys.
    • Instead of trying to tweak your algorithm to only show double-plus or state-approved content, just switch (back) to a display that lists everything some entity published in chronological order.

      You can actually do this on Faceboot, with two clicks... every time you go to a group, or load your stream. I presume that there are add-ons, user scripts, or some other thing to do this for you, but I haven't looked.

      • I think the problem is most people don't do this, they just take what the algorithms give them.

        And it's not like Facebook hasn't had a habit for years of just changing people's preferences, whether directly or as some kind of improvement that restructured the choices so that you had to go back in and change them to more or less what they were before.

        So I think there are people that just gave up and stopped trying to preserve their preferences because they got fatigued by them always being changed.

        Facebook d

        • And it's not like Facebook hasn't had a habit for years of just changing people's preferences, whether directly or as some kind of improvement that restructured the choices so that you had to go back in and change them to more or less what they were before.
          So I think there are people that just gave up and stopped trying to preserve their preferences because they got fatigued by them always being changed.

          IIRC this has never been a setting which stuck, you've always had to select it every time. But I've been wrong before.

          • I quit using Facebook 3 years ago because I couldn't stand the politically oriented cesspool it became, but I seem to remember the news feed around 2009 being basically chronological.

            My memory is that it when it first stopped being chronological there was no way to revert it, then you could, but it might not stick, then there was more algorithm changes and new preferences that could partially override it back to chronological.

            I would still use it if it was just people I knew sharing pictures of their dinner

  • by pecosdave ( 536896 ) on Friday October 25, 2019 @11:02AM (#59346276) Homepage Journal

    Dorsey is just as guilty as Zuck.

    Hey Dorsey - how bout those latest Alex Jones tweets? Oh that's right, you kicked him off of your platform for saying things you didn't like. (then he bull-horned you outside the White House when you met with Trump)

    Hey Dorsey - how about those latest Laura Loomer tweets? Oh, you kicked her off your platform too? Now she's running for office, and win or lose she may have a legitimate election interference case against you over it? Wow, you don't say?

    Hey Dorsey - how about those verified poster badges? Oh, you took them away from conservatives and blamed bullying from the left?

    Hey Dorsey - how about the new rules you made specifically so you don't have to have egg on your face about kicking the president off of your platform, but my making it harder for people to actually re-share and interact with what he (or other non-globalist/big-government) politicians say?

    Dorsey is a partisan hack pretending to work in the public interest.

    • by Nidi62 ( 1525137 )

      Dorsey is just as guilty as Zuck.

      Hey Dorsey - how bout those latest Alex Jones tweets? Oh that's right, you kicked him off of your platform for saying things you didn't like. (then he bull-horned you outside the White House when you met with Trump)

      So...sounds like Twitter's actions had no effect on Jones' freedom of speech then, huh?

      • Depends on how you look at it.

        How are your views on segregation? Do you think we should have chilled water fountains for whites and straight from the pipe water fountains for blacks?

        If you think that is fair, then I guess not.

        • by Nidi62 ( 1525137 )

          Depends on how you look at it.

          How are your views on segregation? Do you think we should have chilled water fountains for whites and straight from the pipe water fountains for blacks?

          If you think that is fair, then I guess not.

          When being an annoying dumbass is a federally protected class alongside race, then you can use segregation as a comparison.

          If I go into a store blasting loud profane music or shouting at the top of my lungs, the store management can request that I leave and bar me from ever coming back. Doesn't mean I can't go play my music somewhere else or even in another store if they allow me to do so. All Twitter did was kick Jones out of their store.

          • Oh?

            I was under the impression Twitter was more like news feed than an open plaza. You only got the feeds you selected to follow, then something you didn't care about could go on and on all they wanted, you weren't following it. If things you follow cite something you don't want to see enough you have the option to block individuals or tags. The reason I don't get flooded with hints and tips about knitting are because I chose not to follow hints and tips about knitting, but I do occasionally see a picture

            • by Nidi62 ( 1525137 )

              Oh?

              I was under the impression Twitter was more like news feed than an open plaza.

              Sure it's an open plaza. It's a privately owned plaza where you have multiple (in this case possibly millions) of people standing around talking. You can choose to stand in front of anyone and listen to them (by following them) if you like what they say, or you can keep walking. Some people that are talking might stand out by talking louder/have a bigger box to stand on/bigger crowd in front of them/etc (more followers/retweets, verified, etc). The owner of the plaza makes money by selling advertising o

    • Dorsey is a partisan hack pretending to work in the public interest.

      It's pretty hilarious to see you attack Jack for being too harsh on your favorite nutjobs like Jones and Loomer. If you go look at some more specifically leftist forums, you'll see people complaning the's basically enabling neonazis and other like minded folks through his very lax and inconsistent policing of the platform.

    • The owners can kick off who they want when they want
  • by sinij ( 911942 ) on Friday October 25, 2019 @11:16AM (#59346340)
    This is like Pol Pot Criticizing Mao for Long March.
  • by sinij ( 911942 ) on Friday October 25, 2019 @11:19AM (#59346354)
    I am glad that Dorsey is sometimes defending some parts of Free Speech in some limited context.
  • Just let stuff trend organically. That's the only viable solution. Stop trying to decide what should and shouldn't be "amplified". The saviour complex in some people is getting out of hand.

    Hosts like Twitter and Facebook should be worried about one thing only IRT speech : Is it law breaking. If it doesn't break laws, let society deal with the speech, rather than try to have computers detect and purge speech based on any other "decency" criteria.

    • by sinij ( 911942 )
      If you are charitable to what Dorsey says and ignore body of evidence to contrary, he does have a point about amplification of disinformation. If you have clear and unambiguous case of a falsehood, then there is a case where it is justifiable to limit its spread (e.g. don't algorithmically promote tweets advocating flat earth theories). The problem is the moving definition of "falsehood" that Twitter uses.
      • by RedK ( 112790 )

        (e.g. don't algorithmically promote tweets advocating flat earth theories).

        You shouldn't be promoting anything algorithmically. It should be the masses that decide. The best counter to flat earth theories is flat earth debunking.

        Notice how most online media turned off comments when they started getting comments debunking their stories right under them. It's because media know the best fix to bullshit is countering it directly. Hiding it only creates echo chambers where people find platforms that let them post their BS unchallenged.

        • (e.g. don't algorithmically promote tweets advocating flat earth theories).

          You shouldn't be promoting anything algorithmically. It should be the masses that decide. The best counter to flat earth theories is flat earth debunking.

          I wish this were true. I really do.

          The problem is that it ignores the fact that human brains are seriously hackable. Our cognitive processes evolved for a very different world, and as a result we have some deep and hard-to-fight cognitive biases. I won't go into the details of what the many types of biases are, I'm sure most of us have heard of many of them, and there's a good Wikipedia article with lots of links for those who want to dig deeper. [wikipedia.org]

          When you couple that fact with the fact that ideas onli

          • by RedK ( 112790 )

            The problem is that it ignores the fact that human brains are seriously hackable.

            This works from both sides. You just seem to approve because it's being done for stuff you agree with, which is the entire crux of the issue.

            Isolating people you deem having "wrongthink" will only further radicalize them against you and your ideas. You're creating your own nemesis.

            • The problem is that it ignores the fact that human brains are seriously hackable.

              This works from both sides. You just seem to approve because it's being done for stuff you agree with, which is the entire crux of the issue.

              You're reading something into my post that wasn't there. I wasn't advocating for or against any content (well, I guess I was dissing flat Eartherism), I was just pointing out that relying on debunking to correct the spread of misinformation through the Internet clearly does not work.

              Isolating people you deem having "wrongthink" will only further radicalize them against you and your ideas. You're creating your own nemesis.

              Are you projecting your own ideas on me? I wasn't categorizing anything as wrongthink -- other than irrational, biased thinking, which is something we all inherently do, and must all fight, individually and collectively, if we

        • by sinij ( 911942 )

          (e.g. don't algorithmically promote tweets advocating flat earth theories).

          You shouldn't be promoting anything algorithmically.

          This is unworkable for anything but very primitive case-matching search. That is, if we don't promote anything algoirhmically, we lose a lot of functionality that works just fine most of the time.

  • by zkiwi34 ( 974563 ) on Friday October 25, 2019 @11:39AM (#59346476)

    Facebook, Twitter etc.

    They are breeding grounds (by design) to create (angry) mobs that tend to go to war with each other.

    Activity equals advertising revenue.

  • What's the point of free speech if even those who subscribe to your feed cannot receive your message because you've been shadowbanned?
  • by Chas ( 5144 ) on Friday October 25, 2019 @12:05PM (#59346610) Homepage Journal

    Amplification is a natural outgrowth of free speech.

    Saying "I think ABC" has more impact, said in public than it does in the privacy of your own closet.

    If Jack doesn't like it, TOUGH FUCKING SHIT.

    The best disinfectant for bad ideas is sunlight.
    Always has been.
    Always will be.

    Jack is just too caught up in his authoritarian utopian ideas where he can FORCE perfection on another person.

    • by Nidi62 ( 1525137 )

      The best disinfectant for bad ideas is sunlight.
      Always has been.
      Always will be.

      Except with modern technology it is way too easy for those bad ideas to cloud things up so bad the sunlight can't break through.

      • by RedK ( 112790 )

        Except with modern technology it is way too easy for those bad ideas to cloud things up so bad the sunlight can't break through.

        The Covington Kids situation is great proof that curated algorithms and "approved media" are even worse than organic trending. Since they get to pick what gets amplified, they often amplify their own attacks on their targets, and silence any opposition and debunking of their approved narratives.

        Are you really sure you want to side with your "benevolent" dictators here ?

      • by Chas ( 5144 )

        Sorry, but BULLSHIT.

        Know where sunlight DOESN'T break through?
        Curated speech.
        EVER.

        You can't say that!
        You can't even talk about the issue in neutral terms.
        You can't even discuss the problem.

        So you a nice, festering cyst of badness.

        If you want to slob the knob of your corporate overlords, in the hopes of ending up on the side of those with power?

        Guess what? There's a term for people like you.

        USEFUL IDIOT.

        And, like all useful idiots, YOU EVENTUALLY GET THE BULLET TOO!

  • The key issue with Twitter is that most of journalists are on it. This creates a situation where journalists see amplification of the extreme position and mob behavior around their biases. Then the rest of us are exposed to this Twitter cesspit by articles they write from the point of false consent/settled matter position.

    So amplification does happen, but not in the way Dorsey willing to admit. Other than deleting Twitter for being cancerous pustule on public discourse, Dorsey could actually make it less a
  • So-called 'freedom of speech' is about far more than just words. It's about the protection of all forms of expression, and Facebook has worked tirelessly to oppress the freedom of expression and also gender equality on their platform. For example: "Facebook is under fire yet again for censoring artwork that features nudity. This time, the Flemish master Peter Paul Rubens and his paintings of nude women and cherubs – as well as a loinclothed Jesus in The Descent from the Cross (1612–14) have all
  • The Internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it, sayeth Gilmore.

    They can keep their proprietary data silos and get fucked.

  • but isn't Facebook doing a far better job at this than Twitter?

    Dorsey has good ideas in general but his execution and paradigms are so far behind
  • Jack Dorsey: Bitcoin is becoming the Internet’s national currency

    What do you think?
  • has to get better so more censorship can remove the last of the American traditions?

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