eBay Sellers Seething Over Targeted Ads 151
hoagiecat writes "eBay isn't just an enormous auction site; it's also a publisher of Google and Yahoo targeted ads, which earn eBay money every time a user clicks on them. But those clicks take users to a new page, and lead them away from the auctions — and those who make their living from those auctions are starting to get upset. Is eBay doing the right thing to make some extra cash from the hot advertising market? Or are they cannibalizing their income and hurting the sellers who have been the backbone of their business?"
It isnt' a simple question (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's how I see it, as a long time EBay user — almost since day one. EBay has a huge problem: They're a public company, and it is not sufficient for them to simply make profits. They must actually grow those profits. This means that no matter how good a model they have — and make no mistake, initially, they had an excellent model — they have to continue to tweak it and push it in search of new and increased income.
Inevitably, this has lead into areas where the original "goodness" of the model is reduced. As long as profits keep rising, this isn't going to be a sensitive point for EBay, and unfortunately for the current crop of EBay users at any one time, this means that the things they liked about EBay are quite likely to evolve into something else.
A website like EBay will never be well served by the "we must make MORE profit" model. The best (IMHO) model is one of a software package that never removes or changes a previously existing feature, or moves it. Instead, they add new features, and generally speaking, these are added in ways that don't disturb access to the old features. In this way, the comfort zone of the existing user base is maintained, while the product remains able to grow.
EBay violates this process constantly, from changing the actual usability of the site, the features available, the rules that underly the selling and buying process, the operation (and therefore validity) of the reputation system, the ability for, and encouragement of, users to communicate with one another directly (without EBay acting as an intermediary), by acting as a mommy figure for various types of transactions it considers immoral, by moving and essentially hiding functionality, by being subsumed by the IRS into a monitoring venue for taxation (not much choice there, in that case, success brought on the problem and you can always count on our legislators to mine everything they can think of for income), by loading the pages with ads, by implementing no-click / not requested by the user pop-up technologies, by consistently escalating fees, by changing developer API's rather than extending them, and so on and so forth.
From where I sit, EBay was a great idea that has come and gone. When it started, I used it constantly. Today, I rarely buy, and I am even less likely to sell. It isn't a financial issue; I am well able to participate. It is a sense that the site simply isn't what it used to be, a friendly, open confluence of people all over the country. It just feels like a big, cold commercial operation to me. And I can get that feeling at Wal-Mart.
The answer to the question of if EBay is doing "the right thing" with regard to advertising varies in a polar manner depending on what you're looking at. From the stockholder perspective, the question is simply, does it result in increased income, and surely the answer will be yes. From the user perspective, the question is, does it result in increased usability and the ability to get done what one goes to the site to get done — and I think the answer to that is just as surely a resounding no. But EBay is a company; you know as well as I do what drives them, and it isn't the end user's general feelings of disaffection. They have a continuous supply of new users who have no sense of what the site used to be like, who simply want to "sell stuff", and that'll no doubt fill the holes left by those who brought the site its previous success.
All surfaces and links will become advertising. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:All surfaces and links will become advertising. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:You gotta ask the Ebay users. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:You gotta ask the Ebay users. (Score:4, Funny)
Full circle (Score:2)
Today, eBayers are upset because brick-and-mortar retailers advertise on eBay, potentially leading some of their customers astray.
We've come full circle. Now we just have to smooth out the kinks until everyone goes where it is best for them to go, and purchase there.
Random Ads (Score:3, Funny)
I had that same experience [hyperborea.org] once, looking for the phrase, "nigerian scam". It brought up this convenient advertisement:
I found that "419 scam" also displayed one of the ads, but "advance fee fraud" did not. And when I searched for "random stuff," eBa
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Sometimes you get an ebay ad for them.
This raised a bit of a fuss a while back and they quickly canned it, but ever now and again it comes back. The last time was a few months ago.
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Competition is GOOD (Score:3, Insightful)
You want to keep your customers? Then you've got to compete on convenience, price, or with items not available through regular retail channels. I've seen lots of things on eBay for about the same price as in the store. Maybe this won't be as common now.
If eBay's advertisements are enabling competition and more choices, then it's better for the consumer, which includes me.
Re:Competition is GOOD (Score:5, Insightful)
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I remember other auction sites years ago, that were put out of business when eBay came along and did it better.
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Craigslist (Score:3, Insightful)
Craigslist. They're already dominating want ads, which is similar enough to auctions that craigslist could stand a chance of solving the main problem - that ebay has all the users, and thus benefits from the network effect [wikipedia.org]. In order to displace ebay, a challenger will have to be more than just a little better, they'll have to blow ebay away, and somehow bootstrap a big enough user base to be viable. Since craigslist actually runs its service to maxim
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Firstly, it's part owned by eBay -- so it's not really in their interests to do anything about it, even though the do have the technology to filter out some of these ads at least.
Secondly, reporting something to Craigslist is pissing in the wind. Their system does not really work. It relies on a significant number of users flagging off scams -- and that just doesn't always happen, and doesn't h
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Re:It isnt' a simple question (Score:5, Insightful)
It is a sense that the site simply isn't what it used to be, a friendly, open confluence of people all over the country. It just feels like a big, cold commercial operation to me. And I can get that feeling at Wal-Mart.
I think that feeling comes from the fact that you can't search anything without getting a ton of results from stores setup specifically to sell on eBay. There used to just be a handful of these results and then the rest were individuals, but nowadays you just get tons of powersellers and not a lot of the individuals.
That and I think it has become an increasing problem of people getting defrauded and scammed that has caused people to lose faith in the system. You can find hundreds of eBay and Paypal horror stories on people receiving empty boxes, boxes with other things inside, unable to cancel fradulent transactions without jumping through hoops, etc.
Re:It isnt' a simple question (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It isnt' a simple question (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It isnt' a simple question (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh, and I'd end the feedback blackmail. Count all non-feedback as neutral. But if I'm a buyer and I get screwed, I have the choice of giving bad feedback to warn others (in which case I get retalatory bad feedback, no matter what I did), leaving no feeedback and getting no feedback, or leaving positive feedback and getting posiive feedback. I have no option to leave negative feedback without getting penalized. Though, I haven't had a transaction since the new non-feedback comments can be left.
It is features like that so skewed to protect the sellers and screw the buyer that it's no longer a site I would buy from if I can find the item anywhere else. And they push paypal, and paypal sucks worse.
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From a seller's perspective? What part of my post made it sound like I cared one lick what a seller thought? However, since you ask, the majority of items sold on ebay are sold through shops that would pay less in fees if they directly accepted credit cards. However, the terms of paypal are more likely to screw the buyer than being an actual merchant, so there is no real
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If you owe $.45 and I need to contact you, that's not positive. At best it's neutral, likely it's oppressive and negative. If you take care of everything and there aren't problems, that's when you get positive feedback.
Fuck, EBay sellers have the biggest sense of entitlement.
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Have no fear, you'll never run into me on ebay.
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Re:It isnt' a simple question (Score:5, Funny)
Re:It isnt' a simple question (Score:5, Interesting)
I only buy on EBay when I can get the item at a significant discount, or I can't find the item at any reputable dealer. At that point, it's worth the potential hassle of having to complain to get your product or money back. And if I get my money back, I -still- have to go find a seller for the product.
It has to be significantly cheaper because of the time I have ot invest for every item I buy on EBay. After having an issue with a seller (who eventually DID send the phone, but with a picture of himself flicking me a bird and scratches) I now have to do more than just glance at the seller's rep. I -always- read through their negative feedback and see if A) it was deserved B) if they responded and C) if the response was friendly and correct.
On top of that, I have to be careful to read the auction several times to make sure it isn't a cardboard cutout of item X or a display model or damaged, and that the item is exactly the same as I have been researching elsewhere. Model numbers, part numbers, clones... Most auctions provide all the info, but you have to be very careful not to assume anything. Yes, I got burned on that once, too. I admitted my mistake and whatever the item turned out to be (I've forgotten since it was only a few dollars) is in a box somewhere.
Returns! They cost money on EBay. The seller isn't going to pay to have it shipped back, that's your money that's going to disappear. In some cases, that might cost as much as the product did. Driving to WalMart costs gas, but not nearly so much as shipping something back to China.
I still use EBay, but since the prices are generally not significantly less than retail any more, I mainly use it for items that aren't sold at any store that I recognize as reputable. Things like European phones (because they don't need to be unlocked), odd video game accessories (Why doesn't Nintendo sell a charging cradle for the ds lite?) and other such things.
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Now & Later (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Now & Later (Score:4, Interesting)
You make an excellent point.
However, from what I've been able to see over the last bunch of years
Executives get their bonuses now, which is what they want. The reality is, IMO, that so many companies do things which clearly haven't considered long-term profits and the value of corporate good will that one wonders if they even pretend to care any more. Certainly, by the time you've off-shored some of your core business, you no longer really control it as much as you once did. In the long run, some companies are losing profits and the ability to compete because they've cannibalized operations in terms of short term gains. But, by the time it becomes apparent, you no longer have the ability to bring it back under your control.
By the time the shareholders of the time (there are no long term investors any more) figure out you have screwed up the company, your options have vested, and your golden parachute has taken effect, and you may be gone.
A very large amount of North American companies have relied on globalization to give themselves improved profits. Now, they find themselves at the mercy of foreign markets (eg China) and absolutely no ability to take back any of their core businesses. They've gutted themselves, they just haven't figured out it was a fatal wound yet.
Cheers
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I don't think it's that they can't recover at this point. They would just have to put long-term thinking first for a few years. And that's not going to happen until investors start pushing for long-term over short-term.
It's not a fatal wound - it's just infected, and taking the time
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If the ads cut sells, then Ebay will lose more money than they gain.
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It really depends of the stockholder you are. If you are merely speculating then yes, it doesk make sense. If you are investing in Ebay as a long term stockholder...They are destroying values. They are alienating their core customers : pro/semi pro resellers.
If I sell a Nokia mobile phone, I do want to be alone selling it on my product's page. Can you imagine an competitor's adver
Google has the same problem (Score:4, Interesting)
They're a public company, and it is not sufficient for them to simply make profits. They must actually grow those profits.
Google has the same problem. Having achieved domination of their main market, now what? There's a temptation to enter new markets, but the main market is so good that all the other product lines are less profitable.
The classic answer is to stop growing and pay dividends. Utility companies and railroads used to do that for decade after decade, once they'd maxed out their industry in their area. But a company that pays dividends and doesn't grow is valued by the market like a bond; the market cap is about 20x the dividend. Google currently has a P/E of 52, and doesn't pay dividends at all. eBay has a P/E of 39, and no dividends. Plus, dividends are taxed twice, once when the company pays them and once as income to the recipient.
The modern answer is merger and acquisition activity. Most M&A activity is a lose for shareholders, although a big win for management. eBay's is generally considered to have paid far too much for Skype. Then there's buying back stock, which, again, is overall a lose for shareholders, but a win for management with stock options. Stock buybacks don't usually shrink the float; they just compensate for the dilution of options issued.
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This statement is more than a bit deceptive.
A company makes some income. They must pay tax on that income no matter what they choose to do with it. There is no special tax on the company for issuing a dividend.
If they choose to give it to investors, then those investors pay a tax on those receipts, and this is often referred to as 'double taxation' by tax protesters. But to be clear, there are no special
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"take out of it" will be taxed. That money would not be taxed
if you chose to just let the business spend it.
So, for not squandering this money the government first penalizes
the company for profit taking and then the stockholder for profit
taking.
If that same business took all of that money and bought a bunch of
Hummers, there wouldn't be a tax bill. Infact, they would be able
to get a tax writeoff on the depreciation of the Hummers.
The US Tax Code i
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My view is this: As soon as you can sue the investors instead of the company when the company does something bad, the investors can get their dividends tax-free, since the investors would have paid it already on their income from their share of the company. But as long as they have created a pseudo-person in the form of a corporation to protect themselves from the company's ac
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The income flow straight through to the stockholders as dividends (up to 36 here in texas) with no taxes to the corp.
All expenses are deductible.
There are some nuances.. but basically that's the way it works.
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Obviously not. This isn't a matter of how you "view" it or feel about it. The law offers a variety of options for forming institutions, you are free to choose the one you want. If the owners wish to "be the company" and not be taxed as separate entities, they may form a partnership.
If they have chosen to form (or invest in) one of the various forms of corporation instead, it's a bit silly to then complain that there are both advantages and disadvantages to this. You
Google is not done profiling us / selling ads (Score:2)
Google's business is targeted advertising. They are not done there yet. I think you may be confusing new ways to gather data about us, to profile us, with new business opportunities. Search, browser ad-ons, GMail, web-based apps, mapping and directions, news, etc are all designed to gather more info about us so that they may charge web sites for delivering more optimal ads to our eyeballs.
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Thats the problem with the public company system. In so much they can't see the forest for
Applause (Score:2, Interesting)
You have quite well summed up my sentiments regarding eBay. You should tweak it a bit and start a petition and send it to the morons who run the company.
Like you I am a logn time eBay user, but less and less all the time. As a seller it has become painful to keep up with all the changes (and bugs) they introduce. One particular bug kept charging customers 9.65 for insurance even though I had no insurance amount typed in. It came from some older listing where I saved the listing for a template. The bl
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That's not technically true. They could pay dividends on their stock to make the value of the stock the payout of dividends, rather than increasing stock price...
Or they could use their profits to gradually buy back their stock, since they have accomplished what they wanted to with the investment capital to the mutual benefit of the company and the investors.
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Continued growth is simply a means to justify failure to return the profits of the corporation to the shareholders. The profits belong to the shareholders, and if the company doesn't pay them out, it's essentially the same as all the shareholders are pumping more cash into the company. People rightly expect a return on that additional investment, he
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Bad analogy (Score:2, Insightful)
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target="_blank" (Score:5, Funny)
Problem solved!
eBay, feel free to send me a few millions as a reward. KTHXbye.
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But, the UI should first tell the bidder/prospective bidder that a numbe
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Moments passed, and a bright red spotlight slowly illuminated around the silhouette of a tall man, his wide, malevolent grin visible in the intense light.
"You fool!" he boomed, "You had your chance. But now... haha... it is too late."
Scrameustache awoke, screaming. "What a nightmare!" Scrameustache mumbled, slowly getting out of bed, kicking over a couple of old pizza boxes discarded beside. There was a no
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middle click. (Score:1)
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You can disable it in user preferences! (Score:4, Informative)
Sorry to hear this is bothering multitudes of people --- but it is REALLY SIMPLE to disable.
This is a PEBKAC problem with eBay options.
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Re:You can disable it in user preferences! (Score:5, Insightful)
Auctions? (Score:5, Funny)
Auctions? eBay still has auctions?
Maybe, but only if you consider (Reserved Price = $1.99), (Buy It Now ® price = $1.99), (shipping = $17.99) to be an "auction".
The shipping thing is a big deal (Score:4, Insightful)
My big problem at the moment is with sellers who indicate shipping at price X (which seems vaguely reasonable), for example $15. Then, the item arrives in a $1 bubble-padded envelope and the seller pockets the rest. It especially pisses me off because I've had auctions wherein I underestimated the shipping when selling (winner in a far corner of the country that costs more than my blanket price) and lost cash on that, while almost every seller I see is taking in 40% of the shipping price as profit while skimping on the actual delivery.
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When I worked at Pets.com, I wondered why the many Alaska customers were ordering dog food. In fact, I wondered why we had so many customers from Alaska--in every other web-disaster I worked at Alaskan customers were rare.
They were taking advantage of the free shipping deals Pets.com so often implemented.
Note to self: free shipping on a 50 lb bag of dog food to Alaska is not a good business model.
Shouldn't have much effect. (Score:1)
I mean, except for the people who get paid to click the ads.
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eBay is a lost cause (Score:1)
living (Score:1)
Shouldn't they anticipate....... (Score:1)
Those sellers that complain are crooked. (Score:5, Interesting)
There are basically two good reasons to go to an auction instead of a regular internet store:
1. The item you desire is hard to find and you can not find a regular internet store that sells it. This is one of the reasons why art and antiques are often sold at auction. Also what happens when a hot toy (Wii, PSP, etc.) comes out in limited quantities. Typically what happens here is that the seller puts in a minimum price, which is often more expensive than a fair price would be if the item was in reasonable supply (see Wii, etc. early sales). Here you are willing to pay more money because you can not find it on a regular store.
2. You wish to save money and believe the auction site will sell it to you for cheaper.
Now, stop and think about the ads. Let's do issue #2 first. If the guy is trying to save money, then unless he was an idiot, he already checked the commercial sites and is NOT interested in them. He will NOT look at the ads and will NOT click on them. He has already seen them and wants to get it for cheaper. So it is a non-issue for them. Also, the very nature of the fact that it IS being advertised means Issue #1 is NOT PRESENT. Chances are you could have found the item easily enough by doing a google search anyway, because hey, it was being heavily ADVERTISED, by the same people that run internet searches.
So the ebay auction sellers that are upset because they are losing people were in fact ripping them off. They were trying to sell things for MORE than they were worth by using an auction instead of trying to get a fair price. They were falsely trying to pretend the item was in short supply when it was not.
Was it illegal? No. Unethical? Well, let's say it is on the shadier side of the street.
The only time they ever lose a sale is if the buyer was a moron and they were trying to get this idiot to pay more from them for more than the item was worth. Sorry people, Ebay is NOT in the business to help you rip off fools. They are as much out their to help the buyers as to help the sellers, and you are basically complaining about ebay being fair to the buyers.
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If the buyer is too lazy to look elsewhere then they will probably end up paying more than necessary. However, I have a real problem believing that someone who can figure out how to use their computer and navigate to eBay wou
Actually... (Score:2)
What? That's EXACTLY the business that eBay is in. They charge sellers for selling. The more the sellers sell for, the more eBay makes. The ENTIRE business is getting sellers to sell as many things as possible at as high a price as possible.
Well, at least until they added ads.
I think eBay is being dumb here, because they get paid when sellers sell stuff. Ads don't just compete with the seller selling things, they compete with eBay gett
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Look for used/damaged items. Look for spelling mistakes. I got a phone for cheaper by taking a used item with a bad battery. Bought a new battery and it lasted for 1 year, about as long as most people typically have a phone for anyway.
It can be a service to the buyer (Score:4, Insightful)
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If I'm on eBay and see an ad for something at the same price or lower than what I'd expect to pay on eBay, I will go to the non-eBay site. 100% of the time.
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Don't like it? (Score:2)
Who cares? (Score:2)
If You Don't Like eBay (Score:3, Interesting)
One would think that a better competitor without many of the above problems could come along and steal eBay's business. What was once innovative with them has become old, rigid, formalized, and preying too often on some of their best sellers. Don't think that an alternative can't come along.
What ads? (Score:2)
In support of competitive markets (Score:2, Insightful)
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Them I'm sure they'll fit right in.
I'm sure they'll be less misleading than a lot of auctions though, and probably fewer will be outright scams.
It can only hurt them long term (Score:2)
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If an item does not sell, the seller will probably list it again giving more money to eBay. (Most of the time, for small items, the listing fees are higher than sale fees).
eBay prices are = retail (Score:4, Insightful)
eBay prices are 1/3 retail except on new in box (Score:2)
Disclosure: I used to make a significant my living off of a company selling things on eBay up until recently. I've sold (or tried to sell) pretty much everything you can imagine on eBay from beenie babies to a Lear jet (no joke) and everything in between.
The only things that are retail price are new in box items that have not been on the market long enough for a second
Ebay = Dead. (Score:2)
Where's my cut? (Score:2)
eBay annoyances (Score:2)
(Insert ad here:) Get Firefox with the AdBlock plugin!
The thing they're doing now that is starting to annoy me are the ads that they insert into the navigation. Click on My eBay, get a full page ad. Click on the obscure link i
Blocking Unwanted Parasites with a Hosts File (Score:2)
Using the hosts file they provide I don't see external adverts on eBay anymore, just this in place of where the advert would be displayed:
Action canceled
Internet Explorer was unable to link to the Web page you
better efficiency (Score:2)
two words... (Score:2)
there
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Yuck.
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