KDE and KOffice Rebuke OOXML, GNOME Dithers 398
Peter writes "Free Software Foundation president Richard Stallman and ITWire have praised KDE and KOffice developers for taking a principled stand against OOXML, while raising serious concerns about the GNOME Foundation's decision to give credibility to Microsoft's broken format. This comes on the heels of GNOME co-founder Miguel de Icaza's depiction of OOXML as a 'superb standard', and GNOME Foundation director Quim Gil's stonewalling of the patent-free Ogg Vorbis / Theora format on behalf of Nokia. Will the GNOME Foundation's indifferent response to Richard Stallman's appeal drive him to throw his weight behind KDE?"
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Re:The best way to bring people to open source (Score:5, Funny)
Would it still be open source... (Score:3, Insightful)
Especially on an issue where it really does matter.
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I will follow Stallman.
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Re:The best way to bring people to open source (Score:5, Insightful)
If GNOME supports OOXML, this just muddies the waters even more. It's a blatant move by MS (using covertly-paid henchmen) to fracture the open-source community.
We already have multiple national governments adopting the ODF standard (which truly is an open standard); the last thing we need is the stooges at GNOME slowing this process.
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If they're considering OOXML on equal terms with ODF, then that shows they're clearly biased towards MS. Providing support as a migration path is fine, but endorsing it is another thing altogether. I don't mind OpenOffice supporting
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ODF = open
OOXML = closed and propri
Re:The best way to bring people to open source (Score:4, Informative)
Huh? The OOXML standard is available for all to see at Standard ECMA-376: Office Open XML File Formats [ecma-international.org]
Now, arguments can be made that the standard is not defined well enough to be implemented (due to things like "do it like word95 did"), but that's the sort of thing that should be resolved by all interested parties before finalizing.
Re:The best way to bring people to open source (Score:4, Insightful)
That's exactly what I'm talking about. It's not an openly-viewable standard when critical parts of it are closed and secret. I highly doubt this will get resolved; stuff like that is in there precisely because MS wants to maintain their vendor lock-in. How are they going to maintain lock-in if they openly document everything? Besides, these issues were raised many, many months ago when MS tried to get their "standard" accepted as one, and they still haven't done anything about them.
Re:The best way to bring people to open source (Score:4, Informative)
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It's called competition. And evolution.
And yes, in the long term, it actually will do the trick.
The free software community, through dissent and conflict, becomes infinitely adaptable to any and all niches. Compare with monolithic entities like Microsoft with much stronger direction; when they decide to go down a number of dead ends they end up with products like Vista, with no fallbacks, unable to fill new niches like the low-end sub $200 pc's.
I'll take d
Re:The best way to bring people to open source (Score:5, Interesting)
Suppose you have a sports team, let's say football (it doesn't matter which type). We have a game between team A and Team B. Team A is pretty decently organized, and works fairly well together. Team B has some problems, however: one player is constantly starting fights with other players on his team, and frequently recruits others on the team to his faction to help in his fights with the other factions. Consequently, the team does very poorly in the competition because they're always "infighting". But then it's discovered that that one fight-starting player is actually being paid, under the table, by Team A just to stir up trouble on his team!!! So is it really infighting? I'd call it "sabotage" instead.
This is exactly what's happening with open-source, specifically with GNOME and Miguel de Icaza. He's really an agent for Microsoft, in some way. It's not clear yet whether he's actually being paid off by them, or if he's just a willing stooge who loves them so much that he's lost his grip on reality. It doesn't matter either way, though, because the effect is the same: it factionalizes open-source and creates problems, helping MS.
Personally, I think open-source projects need to cut him off altogether. When you have gangrene in one of your limbs, you amputate it before it spreads. If GNOME isn't willing to throw him out, then GNU needs to drop support for GNOME, and all other open-source projects do too. They need to stop the cancer before it spreads.
Don't forget the "getting hysterical" part. (Score:5, Interesting)
RMS is worried about compromising on principles of Free software by putting efforts into making software that reads or writes this technically and philosophically nasty format. Since when has AVOIDING interoperability furthered the spread of Free software? Linus has yielded to pragmatism many times in the past (using BitKeeper for example, and being cautious about GPL3) whereas RMS remains steadfastly rigid in his ideals at all levels. RMS' stance is admirable, but look at where the Linux kernel is...then look at how far the HURD has come in comparison. Perhaps some pragmatism isn't always a bad thing?
Now, as far as compromising "principle" with the pragmatic decision to work on making GNOME read the OOXML format, where exactly is this a more serious concern than with countless other interoperability projects? What about the work that went into making NTFS mountable in Linux? What about the Samba project? What about the ability of OpenOffice, KOffice, AbiWord, GNUMeric, etc. to at least partially support Microsoft's legacy binary file formats already? Where do we draw the "principled" line here? Microsoft's "core dump" binary formats, NTFS file system, CIFS and the Active Directory are not proper open standards yet great effort has been made thus far to reverse-engineer and deal with them so as to break down the Microsoft lock-in. How come, all of the sudden, RMS has to chime in about OOXML and now suddenly we should all ignore it on principle?
Perhaps the KDE people should become even more principled and drop all the hooks it has with Samba to browse and be browsed on Microsoft's "network neighbourhood". Perhaps Linux-based OSes should not only all drop GNOME as the default desktop, they should also drop the ability to mount NTFS volumes too. After all, if we're gonna snub OOXML because it's crap and it's closed, then we should be consistent and do the same across the board.
Re:The best way to bring people to open source (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not that simple: this is an issue of standards. When you're dealing with standards, and creating and promoting a standard, you're inherently rejecting the idea of letting people decide what the "best tool for the job" is, because you're trying to make them use a specific tool, so that they can interoperate. What good would it do me to make up my own graphics format and editing tools, for instance, if I can't use the resulting images anywhere or send them to anyone? I can use them for myself, of course, but for things like that, it's a lot more useful if I can also exchange them with others, and because it's a popular standard, they have no problem using these files.
There's a big fight right now between ODF and OOXML. People (especially large organizations) are finally seeing the value of open office format standards, and XML-based ones which they can view or edit with tools other than the word processor or spreadsheet which created them. The whole world has been suffering with MS Office's closed, proprietary, binary-only formats for many years now, and they're ready for a change to something more like PDF or JPG, which can be viewed or edited with lots of different, competing tools. (It's also very useful to have an XML-based standard so that information can be easily extracted, such as for web searches. Google could easily spider and index XML-based documents on the web, whereas doing that for MS's proprietary formats isn't so simple.) But MS doesn't want people to switch to an open standard; they'll lose their proprietary lock-in, and consequently many MS Office customers. So they've intentionally confused the issue by making up their own XML-based "standard", OOXML, which isn't open, and basically serves as an XML wrapper for closed, binary data so that competing software still can't be 100% compatible.
Diversity and uniqueness of different open-source projects is a good thing as you say, as people can pick what works the best, but they're not shut out of anything because it's all open (For instance, I use KDE normally, but I can still use GNOME programs because it's all open-source; I'm not locked out of either by choosing one). But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about an open standard vs. a closed standard. If the world chooses the closed standard, then we're right back where we were with a decade or more of MS Office dominance, and no other tool being 100% compatible, so we're all forced to use MS Office just to be compatible with everyone else. No thanks.
Sigh. (Score:5, Interesting)
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He's heavily involved with Gnome, and on a bug report within an open source project that is Gnome related he is regurgitating a corporate policy that is totally at odds with the free and op
Re:Sigh. (Score:4, Insightful)
Nokia obviously does not want to support Vorbis. That's not Quim's decision to make. He can't change reality on the bug report and say "sure, Nokia will support Vorbis tomorrow, everything will be fine and dandy", because it's clearly *not going to happen*. But Nokia's policy is not GNOME's, and what Nokia does really has no implications for what GNOME does.
I really don't understand what you expect Quim to do on this bug report, or why you think it implies anything in particular about *GNOME's* policies, rather than Nokia's.
Old Stallman (Score:4, Funny)
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This 'article' is bullshit flamebait (Score:5, Insightful)
Furthuremore, this crap article praises KDE for backing ODF implying that Gnome isn't. Of course Gnome backs ODF.
Finally, look for Jeff Waugh's comments in the comment section of TFA to see how it really is.
Re:This 'article' is bullshit flamebait (Score:5, Informative)
KDE takes stand on OOXML; Gnome dithers [itwire.com].
But I still stand by my comments. And here, just to cut to the chase, is one of Jeff Waugh's comments from the article linked above:
The GNOME Foundation is not in bed with Microsoft or Novell on this issue. Our statement is very clear about our attitude towards OOXML and our participation in ECMA TC45-M. We're there to ensure that we have sufficient documentation for FLOSS project to implement it. We're not endorsing, contributing to or developing the OOXML specification or its standardisation. (In fact, it has had a positive contribution to my work against OOXML locally...) Whatever happens with ISO, it's important for FLOSS products to implement it such that users have the opportunity to embrace Software Freedom without cutting themselves off from their own documents, or collaboration with their friends and colleagues. We don't have to like OOXML, Microsoft or the Microsoft/Novell deal to implement it, and have an open and pragmatic approach to delivering Software Freedom to as many users as we possibly can. We fiercely compete with Microsoft, and we're not about to give their monopoly a leg up by boycotting their stupid format. We want *MORE* FLOSS users, not fewer. There is a complete valid disagreement about the *perception* of GNOME involvement in TC45-M and how Microsoft might use it (and we'll make it very clear to national bodies and BRM delegates what our position is and why we're involved in the ECMA group), but nothing deserving demonisation of GNOME or suggestions that it has "sold out" to any corporation. That is simply not the case, and it is unnecessarily divisive to suggest so.
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In thoughts only AFAIK: which Gnome component is going to use ODF? Do they have someone working on the standardisation board to ensure that ODF is really good?
IMHO, it's much more important to have a great ODF and a great support for ODF than Microsoft Office XML: so every
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a, Whether or not msoffice 2007 actually complies with the published spec.
b, What areas of the spec are insufficient to implement the format adequately.
grow a pair! (Score:4, Interesting)
Anyways, I'm done talking.
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However, Miguel does seem like a major sell out. I'm glad I don't use Gnome or Novell.
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Re:grow a pair! (Score:4, Insightful)
The work that Jody does helps in this regard.
If the KOffice guys want to not import ooxml then they're making their program less useful to their users.
Martin Sevior
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We're in the business of helping our users whoever they may be.
More weight to KDE (Score:4, Insightful)
With Linus preferring KDE, could Stallman's support put more weight behind KDE? I'm rather surprised that the GNOME Foundation's decision. They could at least have kept their mouths shut instead of praising OOXML, which severely damages their credibility in the GNU world.
Re:More weight to KDE (Score:5, Informative)
Who is "they"? Who is "them"?
Has an official representative of the GNOME Foundation publicly stated that it is GNOME Foundation policy to praise OOXML? Has the GNOME Foundation, as a group, taken any kind of official position on OOXML (other than "we want the specs for it so we can interoperate with OOXML users")?
Miguel de Icaza, who is not the GNOME Foundation, did call it "a superb standard". The GNOME Foundation did not endorse his comments, but it did release this statment:
http://www.gnome.org/press/releases/ecma-tc45-statement.html [gnome.org]
Here's my favorite quote from the above statement:
If you have some examples of the GNOME Foundation praising OOXML, be sure to post them here. But at the moment I do not believe your complaints are supported by the facts.
P.S. As for Richard Stallman, he won't be completely satisfied with any desktop environment until he can get one where the whole environment is GPLv3 and there is no proprietary software available. Both GNOME and KDE have proprietary software available.
steveha
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If the Foundation wants to
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GNOME, on the other hand, is more than willing to bow to Microsoft.
Examples, please, and not tin-foil-hat examples.
This was detailed in the article summary. Miguel de Icaza has endorsed OOXML, calling it a superb standard or somesuch. Miguel and GNOME go hand-in-hand, or at least that's the popular view. GNOME has never done anything to counter that view, so we might as well accept it as true. Therefore, since Miguel is willing to bow to
RMS and the tinfoil hat (Score:5, Insightful)
I appreciate RMS and his views. He is a pragmatic alarmist, he is playing the chess game that is computers several moves ahead of most people. That's why so many take his statements with a grain of salt, they don't see he has been "right," consistently, for over two decades, often years before the first real signs begin to show.
GNU/Linux and F/OSS have enemies. It is an undeniable fact. There are people working against us. One need only hop over to groklaw and see the black hand of Microsoft (and greed of course) guiding that whole thing. So, maybe we are paranoid, but even paranoids have real enemies.
I am really starting to believe that GNOME is a trojan horse, or at least some aspects of it. I don't trust Miguel de Icaza, he's either incompetent of a shill and he's potentially dangerous.
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Whatever the motives of individuals behind the Gnome project, it has contributed one of only 4 fully fledged (only 2 free), stable and heavy-weight desktop managers around. Not only that but it has contributed a toolkit of the highest quality and literally hundreds of excellent applications.
Let's face it - just as KDE didn't die when gnome was founded in reaction to linking to non-GPL code, so Gnome won't die if
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As another post said read Jeff Waugh's comments in the previously mentioned article. Read before you assume.
Re:RMS and the tinfoil hat (Score:4, Informative)
I think XFCE is about to eat GNOME's lunch. I just tried it again for the first time in several years, and wow has it matured. You can keep using the same GNOME applications and have nice looking GTK, but have an interface that's easy to use, feature rich, fast and it just works better.
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I think he is naive; I honestly believe he thinks MSOOXML is a good thing, based on his experience with
We can only hope... (Score:5, Funny)
As a long time KDE user, I sincerely hope not.
Do I have the timeline right? (Score:4, Funny)
2. Gnome was established because we couldn't accept that un-free KDE?
3. KDE fixed its problems and Gnome became Microsoft's bitch
4. ???
5. Profit!!!
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2. Gnome was established because we couldn't accept that un-free KDE?
3. KDE fixed its problems and Gnome became Microsoft's bitch
4. ???
5. Profit!!!
Summary is missing the last line: (Score:4, Funny)
Could someone please explain... (Score:5, Interesting)
... what Miguel de Icaza's obsession with shoving Microsoft technologies in to Gnome?
Is it to try and attract Windows developers to the Linux platform? Is it to ease transition from Windows to Linux? Is it to make it easier for Microsoft to threaten the entire community with patent infringement threats..? What is it?
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Re:Could someone please explain... (Score:4, Insightful)
I like Mono. It lets me write C# on Linux. Does it hurt you? Apparently it must, how I have no idea.
I want to open OOXML documents. Does this hurt you? Got me. You seem to think it does.
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A single API for storing configuration parameters. What a terrible idea!
No, that DOES sound like a good idea, but so does Communism.
The reason that the registry was a problem in Windows was that it was easily corrupted.
That was more of a meta-problem.
It works well for multiple users
Unix config files have too, for a loooong, long time now. That's a pretty basic requirement for any up-and-coming replacements.
I think the only people that complain about the concept of the registry are idiots at this point.
Come on, that's a bit unfair. Help them understand the difference between ideas and implementations by telling them what a registry SHOULD do.
You can toss out your local gconf settings without hosing your system
Why not global settings? Don't laugh, many applications can get by without a global conf file by using sane defaults. I do realize that many d
Take responsbility (Score:2)
the whole thing is rather ironical (Score:2)
Confusion Part Two (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, the "freedom" to write Caged applications is a thorny issue. But I see it like this, and I'm sure RMS does too: in a nation where the ownership of slaves is forbidden, citizens tend to be freer on average than in a nation where the ownership of slaves is permitted. So KDE are actively promoting freedom, by taking a stand against OOXML. Novell and GNOME and Mono are getting rather too cosy in bed with Microsoft for comfort. It's very hard not to think about Microsoft pulling some kind of bait-and-switch operation which would put OSS users in trouble. If this happens, I think it's actually more likely that the Governments of the world would just pass Enabling Acts to annul whatever IP Microsoft are trying to abuse; but that's still a waste of taxpayers' money that doesn't have to happen, and by the time it gets to that stage the damage (in terms of unopenable public and private records) will be severe.
Not everyone is as responsible a citizen as you. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you, and just because you don't understand the importance of having access to Source Code doesn't mean it isn't every bit as big a deal, in its own right, as slavery.
Tired of the Nonsense/FUD (Score:5, Insightful)
- GNOME (and Novell) do not support the standardisation of OOXML. They are both members of the ODF alliance [odfalliance.org], both use it as the default file format, and if it was even remotely realistic to have a decent office product without OOXML support (where the Windows desktop is unfortunately in such an insane over-dominance currently), then they would of course be all for it.
- The implementation of OOXML is all about interoperability. I don't see anyone (wrongly) trashing Samba as a project, and yet its existence and the effort to implement OOXML support is virtually identical in terms of free software.
- You like software freedom and hate the software patent system? Great, so do I. Free implementations of proprietary solutions, though, are a good thing; not a single one of my friends are going to be using Linux if they can't submit their assignments to their lecturers. We need interoperability, to ease the transition for people coming from the proprietary world.
- The KDE/Koffice developers issued a statement [kde.org] basically saying they didn't have the resources or the time to implement OOXML, and suddenly a lot of silly talk gets thrown at GNOME. If I volunteered to implement OOXML support in Koffice I doubt (i) that they would object, and for sure that (ii) any distribution would not include it.
- Even if you dislike Jeff Waugh, it's pretty tough to find a rational basis for criticising him based on the podcast or his approach to the problem other than (i) not getting the GNOME statement [gnome.org] (again, which you really can't fault) out soon enough, or (ii) giving Roy the publicity he wants.
- The itwire article plays Roy as some sort of victim in the podcast talk. That is ridiculous. Unfortunately -- and to the detriment of the FLOSS community -- Roy is an incredibly prolific, poisonous [google.nl] person willing to do or say anything that might cook up some self-publicity, and with an irrational hatred of Novell. And in fact on the contrary, Roy skipped around every question that was directly asked to him; instead opting to just give background on Microsoft's "evil" nature and talking about how bad OOXML is (both of which we palpably know).
- Finally, even if you decide to ignore all the other above facts, please tell me why you're not also staging wide protests against OpenOffice.org or your distribution for including OOXML support, as well.
To save any comments of bias, I'm an ardent KDE aficionado.Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
No one uses it, yet. It's not a pragmatic standard, and it's definitely not an "official" standard (as in ISO).
More likely than not, if I sent out DOCX files from my business, I would be asked to send either PDF or DOC.
Until OOXML is ubiquitous, which will not happen for several years, there is no reason to not push ODF instead, particularly because ODF's got quite a bit of momentum internationally. Especially if the ODF plugin for MS Office continues to work proper
Open letter to Miguel (Score:5, Funny)
Gnome issue (Score:3, Interesting)
The one big problem with Gnome is that it embodies exactly what ordinary folk would imagine when you asked them about the meaning of "computer nerd". The image is that of a clumsy, pimply boy living somewhere in a basement, desperately trying to be anti-establishment. In a way, it wants to be a techno-hippie. Now imagine that the nerd's world was suddenly turned upside down by his views becoming mainstream, at least to a certain degree. By now, it has become kind of common to think and say that Microsoft is the devil, that the whole proprietary software crap should be buried in an unmarked grave, etc.
That's exactly the situation Icaza and his cronies are finding themselves in. They wanted to be rebels, even saviors. One sign of that is the (rather fruitless) experiment that is Gnome. In an attempt to describe it, I arrived at the following:
Or in other words: Epic fail! You want proof? Until today, Gnome has consistently failed to even grow a usable file selection dialog. I rest my case.
Ironically, denouncing the rest of the "scene" has that way become the logical way to again be different. It's a purely religious reflex: if someone threatens your perceived dominance, it is declared evil. If you think about it, deep in its absolute retardedness, it's kinda cute on that level.
Re:Miguel de Icaza (Score:5, Insightful)
Novell is on MS's payroll.
Re:Miguel de Icaza (Score:5, Funny)
But the default desktop for SUSE Linux (owned by Novell) is KDE... So GNOME uses de Icaza who promotes Microsoft on Novell's payroll which ships KDE as the default desktop, but Microsoft has an agreement with Novell who has de Icaza on payroll and - Oh no, now I'm dizzy!
Re:Miguel de Icaza (Score:5, Informative)
I don't agree with the good job part but think about it. If MS switches over to OOXML and Linux can support it just as well as Windows who needs Windows? The same logic works with
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The whole point of OOXML is only Microsoft can ever fully support it as it's full of dependencies on Microsoft quirky and slightly undefinable technologies.
And, BTW, Miguel has eroded any credibility he had by, apparently, sabotaging his turf of the open software thing.
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OOXML has a spec, like, behave something that we don't have the specs for and won't get the details. Recursion to the unknown. Read up a bit on it and you'll find out. [Yes, you as well, you the moderator who thinks this as 'insightful']
'Provably' means that you have the specs, and 'provably' means that MS implements the specs. Neither will be the case, since you don't have them, and they will not be implemented (at least not all 6000+b pages), you're screwed. Egg in
Re:Miguel de Icaza (Score:4, Informative)
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Novell is on MS's payroll.
Which isn't all too high, look at their recent filings and layoffs.
Sure he wants to get a generous offer from them (MS), and he'll bent any direction of the windrose for it.
Let him move along. Even encourage him to move along. Gnumeric was the last great thing he did. Evolution was already corrupted, because the contributors to the Exchange plugin were asked to fork out for using it.
The earlier he arrives in Redmond, the better for the community.
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Re:Does it matter anymore? (Score:4, Funny)
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GNOME is hardly the default, and trying to assert it as such is incorrect.
Ubuntu and Fedora use GNOME, but Fedora ships with KDE, and for the Ubuntu crowd there's Kubuntu...
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Funny, when I bought my mother-in-law a $300 Wal-Mart PC, it came pre-loaded with Linspire, a KDE distro.
I promptly removed it in favor of SimplyMEPIS, another KDE distro.
Here's a $199 PC, which runs Enlightenment. [walmart.com]
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Funny, when I bought my mother-in-law a $300 Wal-Mart PC, it came pre-loaded with Linspire, a KDE distro.
Funny, I don't think he ever claimed otherwise.
Are you going to posit that Linspire even comes close to matching the installed base of Ubuntu or Fedora? The bottom line is those Wal-mart PC's are NOT a significant source of existing Linux installs. Them coming with something other then GNOME is just not an issue. It's like jumping on someone for saying most cars are powered by gasoline by saying "Funny, I just bought an electric car from Bob's Who-ja-whatzit Electric Autos. And from YARC (Yet Another R
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Alas, that doesn't actually seem to be the case, and we've had a few desktop surveys over the past few years that have gone totally against this grain - despite some peoples' best efforts ;-). Additionally, the fact that people are still talking about KDE and KDE 4 still seems to be able to generate excitement for some reason means that something isn't right..
You know w
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I think many, if not most, openSuSE users use KDE. SuSE was a KDE distribution for a long time, and most of the SuSE GUI tools are still KDE-centric.
Also, the official position [opensuse.org] of the openSuSE Community is that there is no "default" desktop environment:
What is the default desktop of openSUSE - GNOME or KDE?
openSUSE supports a number of popular desktop environments, including GNOME and KDE. During installation, the user is asked to choose between GNOME and KDE but no default is given. Both desktop env
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The OpenSUSE FAQ says this:
"What is the default desktop of openSUSE - GNOME or KDE?
openSUSE supports a number of popular desktop environments, including GNOME and KDE. During installation, the user is asked to choose between GNOME and KDE but no default is given. Both desktop environments are mature and feature-rich, which one a user chooses is a question of personal taste."
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i'd also not turn my nose up at successes like the EEE PC which ships with KDE software by default and is well on its way to making the sales targets of 3-5 million units in its first year.
it's also great to see gnome centric companies, such as Canonical, Red Hat, or even smaller ones like Userful, have so much commercial success with KDE. Userful is int
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As for "all" popular distros, the word "commercial" is missing. Or at least "commerce-oriented"
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So, to pander to the closed source devs, they'd only have to include GTK, and a set of default themes to make it look like their KDE setup.
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Kubuntu
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Re:Does it matter anymore? (Score:4, Informative)
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Would you please elaborate on that, I'm intrigued.
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I used to like Gnome.
Back in the 1.4 times.
From 2.0 on, it's been getting on my nerves. Increasingly so.
I was never much of a KDE fan, but I think I'll switch camps.
And if KDE turns out to be so great, even better.
I have to see what I can do with E17 as well; maybe its stability has improved recently (haven't had the time to experiment with different desktops in the last year or so).
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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I'd rather people focus the energy on stuff that makes our software stronger and more appealing, rather than trying to implement ill-defined 'open' specs. Mono on linux, for example, is a travesty to me.
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Life isn't _usually_ about taking your ball and going home.
Every once in a while, however, you meet a predator/bully who cannot be challenged via _any_ means except a war to the death. You do not beat diseases by negotiating with bacteria. You do not eliminate rats by trying to train them away from dumpsters. You cannot negotiate with an irrational tyrant expect positive results.
We've already been through the standards process for a document format. There's an ISO standard for documents: ODF. Anything th
Re:Tune In Next Week (Score:4, Interesting)
Yea, maybe RMS's appearance is, lacking a better phrase, unorthodox, but his words and actions are the issues here. Stop being a child and focus on the subject, or is it your job to distract from the subject?
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Admitting it? (Score:2)
Re:Admitting it? (Score:5, Informative)
linking someone else's code would be an issue, and in the 2 cases where that happened it was rectified as soon as it was brought up; it's also useful to note that those 2 cases were small code fragments, not significant bodies of work, and as such certainly not evidence of a willfull plot or some such thing. they were oversights, and corrected in a timely manner without fuss.
and this was what, getting to be 10 years ago now? today we have nice clean GPL'd (or "better") code on every platform we support. let's find some new issues to grind over. =)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
i'm guessing it's kghostview that you were thinking of when you wrote, "there was a PDF viewer or something similar that used third party GPL'd code". which, in light of
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:KOFFICE? (Score:4, Interesting)
and yes, a good number of people do use KOffice. certainly not as many people as use OpenOffice, but to the users of KOffice knowing that they are working with apps that use an interoperable format is indeed pretty important to them.