Could Tizen Be the Next Android? 243
MollsEisley writes: Right now, Tizen is still somewhat half-baked, which is why you shouldn't expect to see a high-end Tizen smartphone hit your local carrier for a while yet, but Samsung's priorities could change rapidly. If Tizen development speeds up a bit, the OS could become a stand-in for Android on entry-level and mid-range Samsung phones and eventually take over Samsung's entire smartphone (and tablet) lineup.
Well if that happens, it'll be bye bye Samsung. (Score:5, Interesting)
Samsungs extensions on Android are bad enough - if they had an entire OS they controlled? Stuff that!
Re:Well if that happens, it'll be bye bye Samsung. (Score:5, Funny)
It'll be the usual story with Samsung;
Hardware; neat!
Software; Oh my god, what did your customers do to you to inflict this on them?
Re:Well if that happens, it'll be bye bye Samsung. (Score:4, Informative)
As an owner of a Samsung BluRay player, I can confirm the Software part of the above statement.
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Hm,
I used to say exactly that. I owned a Galaxy S2 in the past and was convinced the above is true. But now after setting up my wife's nexus the S5 I bought for me is a pleasure. After all the crap google pulls just to force G+ down users throats (multiple sms anybody?, facebook pictures for contacts?, etc) the samsung extensions are a pleasure.
Re:Well if that happens, it'll be bye bye Samsung. (Score:4, Informative)
Well, this time around, the only phone AT&T offered that met what I wanted was the Note 4, so I took a chance, with a heavy heart and much misgiving. I have to say, almost 4 months in, and I love this phone. Most of the stock apps are good enough that I'm using them rather than taking the chance on play store garbage. (Very unusual for me, I usually end up modding the hell out of my android phones) The Gear VR came in for Xmas,and is a great toy. I put in a 128Gb SD card and I have way more room than I need, even with a half dozen 3D full length movies on board. There is no lag or slow down on any of the games I have downloaded, and the screen is beautiful. WiFi and Bluetooth so far work flawlessly and fast. So far, all of the things that have frustrated me have turned out to be KitKat issues, not anything that Samsung has done.
It's large, but I never wish it was any smaller, only that my hands were a bit bigger. It's still small enough to be pocketable, even inside an otterbox, and I never hold it up to my ear when I'm actually on a call (less than 5% of the time I'm using it anyway). With bluetooth in the car, as a headset, and speakerphone on my desk, I rarely have to take it out of my pocket or the car/desk holder to talk.
It is good enough, that it just may entice me into getting Samsung when I get my 70" UHD TV later this year.
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I had an original Galaxy S. It was so bad, I swore I would never buy another piece of Samsung electronics again.
Agreed. Had the T-Mobile version and it was a shit phone. Even the custom mods couldn't make up for things like the broken GPS and lag even with trying all of the "no lag" fixes.
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Try to delete it. It's your phone, go ahead.
Re:Well if that happens, it'll be bye bye Samsung. (Score:4, Insightful)
If you don't want G+, then don't sign up with Google at all. You don't need Google on Android at all. Nope, not required. The thing of it is, you want all the things Google does so well (which includes G+ IMHO), but don't want things you might not like. If you're that hung up on not using G+ (don't worry, Google already knows all about you) then don't use it.
Or you know, just buy an iPhone already. Or Blackberry (LOL, yeah I know it is android) or even a Windows Phone (ROFL).
Or grow some tech knowledge, root your phone, install a custom ROM and don't install the Google Apps package. I don't know if I am on /. or some whiny tinfoil hat blog.
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Updates will re-enable apps. This is a quick in how they are installed in the partition that is effectively read only unless you apply an update. This is also why you can't uninstall them.
Providing another service outside Google Play access to these apps is seen as a "security risk" as the resulting service would require root access.
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It took a few less than intuitive steps, but I was able to disable Google Plus today. I've already had to disable Google Now because Lollipop killed my Nexus 7. It gets a little closer to working condition with every google service I remove.
Also, it turned out that "Tegra Zone" (whatever that is) was also a big resource hog. I know most of you probably knew that, but I never had to think about my Nexus 7's performance until Lollipop came along and destroyed everything I liked about Android.
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But not the hardware part? Not a ringing endorsement, huh.
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You have to consider that the Samsung extras are the only thing they can really do to make their phones different, and so they have to create something almost by default. The problem is coming up with an idea for a thing that hasn't already been done by Google. (its like Microsoft in reverse, once a 3rd party came up with a great idea and Microsoft them bundled their own version in the next OS, Google bundles them before you have a chance!)
So maybe if they are dedicated to an OS, they will have more of a re
A guess (Score:4, Interesting)
No, it can not. Android is already entrenched, and in a market where not even microsoft can dislodge it despite reasonable efforts Samsung can definitely forget about doing so.
Re:A guess (Score:5, Funny)
Then again, Microsoft couldn't even dislodge Symbian.
Re:A guess (Score:4, Interesting)
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Palm's issue, was that the "Pre" was to late to the smart phone market, by then, Apple was already with iPhone. When I had my Palm, and my cellphone, I kept wondering why the two were not melded. My wonderment lasted over two years.
So if it was so difficult, why not break Palm OS to make it work on phones.
"Half Baked"? (Score:5, Informative)
Let's be clear that Tizen is actually the child of Nokia's and Intel's Linux-based OS that was known as Meego, which owed much of its existence to Nokia's Maemo Linux platform and Intel's Moblin. That's a lot of history, and Samsung has added more and more. Half-baked? What a bizarre term.
Re:"Half Baked"? (Score:5, Funny)
Let's be clear that Tizen is actually the child of Nokia's and Intel's Linux-based OS that was known as Meego, which owed much of its existence to Nokia's Maemo Linux platform and Intel's Moblin. That's a lot of history, and Samsung has added more and more. Half-baked? What a bizarre term.
overbaked?
Re:"Half Baked"? (Score:5, Funny)
Let's be clear that Tizen is actually the child of Nokia's and Intel's Linux-based OS that was known as Meego, which owed much of its existence to Nokia's Maemo Linux platform and Intel's Moblin. That's a lot of history, and Samsung has added more and more. Half-baked? What a bizarre term.
I think it refers to the fact they must have been high to think it's a good idea.
Re:"Half Baked"? (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's be clear that Tizen is actually the child of Nokia's and Intel's Linux-based OS that was known as Meego, which owed much of its existence to Nokia's Maemo Linux platform and Intel's Moblin. That's a lot of history, and Samsung has added more and more. Half-baked? What a bizarre term.
"Been fiddled with for ages" doesn't really mean it's mature or ready. The fact is hasn't been on any significant number of devices in the real world would be a big flag, there's alot of refinement that comes from *actual* use in the wild that you don't get from lab development.
Re:"Half Baked"? (Score:4, Insightful)
I still use Meego on my Nokia N9, best phone I've ever had, and still have (I also have a M8 One and iPhone 5S - I'm a mobile dev, I absolutely prefer Meego over iOS and Android).
Meego is amazing, there's no denying it - I haven't taken a hands-on look at Tizen lately, but I can't imagine they've stuffed it up too much, and if they've managed to improve on Meego, well I'll be there in a heart beat, decent hardware permitting.
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Tizen has the OS layer replaced. What you are looking for is Sailfish: https://jolla.com/ [jolla.com]
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I can't imagine they've stuffed it up too much, and if they've managed to improve on Meego
Have you used a Samsung-inflicted Android phone..? They have a knack for making things worse...
Re:"Half Baked"? (Score:5, Informative)
I was recently corrected on the connection between Meego and Tizen. Apparently Meego was abandoned fully upon the foundation of Tizen, and the only connection between the two was that Intel was involved with both (tough they seem to have since pulled out of Tizen).
In essence the only remnant of Maemo/Meego is Sailfish, the continuation of Mer.
Re:"Half Baked"? (Score:4, Funny)
In essence the only remnant of Maemo/Meego is Sailfish, the continuation of Mer.
I feel like I need a Tolkienesque chart to keep up with this.
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That's because Chipzilla's involved with it. They've been flailing around with all sorts of crap, muddying up the whole picture with MeeGo, Tizen, now Edison and Tesla. They want to have it all for themselves. An admirable business notion, but unaccomplishable in the manners unto which they've been fucking things up with in this space.
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The only thing that's common between the two is the OS core...which has now drifted since Tizen's formation both on Sailfish and Tizen.
Nope (Score:3)
most likely the next Meego
(Or if its more lucky the next Firefox OS or Ubuntu Phone)
No Apps => Noone buys it
Re:Nope (Score:4, Insightful)
MeeGo actually had a chance... if only the M$ trojan hadn't entered Nokia!
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Tizen runs Android apps by ACL [openmobileww.com]; as I heard.
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Most of those emulation layers have failed... While it's 95%+ compatible, that last 5% causes many people's apps to not work. Blackberry tried Android runtime compatibility and failed miserably.
Re:Nope (Score:5, Insightful)
It seems like Google is has no long term commitment to building phone hardware. They didn't keep Motorola, for example. And this attempt to make a modular phone seems more like a technology demonstration then a product role out. Does anyone think they will try and make a business line out of it? I doubt it. So hardware vendors can continue use Android and not be worried about competing with Google directly, which is why I think they got rid of Motorola.
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What other phone manufacturer would touch Tizen with a 10-foot pole? That would put them at a significant disadvantage because Samsung would never let them build a better product. So the only ones using will be Samsung, and somehow it doesn't seem likely that Samsung can create the same kind of walled garden that Apple has developed.
It seems like Google is has no long term commitment to building phone hardware. They didn't keep Motorola, for example. And this attempt to make a modular phone seems more like a technology demonstration then a product role out. Does anyone think they will try and make a business line out of it? I doubt it. So hardware vendors can continue use Android and not be worried about competing with Google directly, which is why I think they got rid of Motorola.
I think this is a big part of what is making Android so successful. It used to be part of what made MS successful, but in recent years MS has been trying to become more like Apple, and thus everybody is running (if I only had $100 everytime Adobe sells a copy of photoshop, maybe we should be the exclusive hardware provider for some new OS, etc).
People like to decry the generic model but it is a BIG reason for why PCs took off. It works best when you don't have too much vertical ownership of the whole chai
It's all about the ecosystem (Score:2)
No one has really managed to provide competition to the iTunes ecosystem (I consider the iOS App Store as part of this ecosystem) or Google's Play ecosystem.
Samsung has tried multiple times to begin establishing their own ecosystem, and those attempts have consistently failed. In many cases (myself included), those attempts drove people away from Samsung's products. (The most annoying thing I remember about Touchwizz was the constant bombardment of "register for Samsung blah" shit - you couldn't disable t
Re:Nope (Score:4, Insightful)
Like they assume that if there isn't a Facebook app they can't use Facebook.
AFAIK, without a Facebook app one will not receive Facebook notifications every time it's algorithms say it should, and this matters for many people.
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Yea, people at facebook.
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And use Tinfoil for Facebook to browse FB on your phone.
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The Uzebox [uzebox.org] is open source and you can even build your own, write your own software, etc. It's low-cost and someone even designed a nice case for those who have a 3D printer.
Oups, never mind then.
It will be their biggest mistake (Score:3, Interesting)
Rubbish (Score:2)
Apart from Apple zealots people don't care what OS runs their smartphones so long as it looks nice - which is where Windows phone falls off a cliff.
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The new Blackberry OS can run Android apps. Whats the problem?
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That's part of where the thinking about Tizen being all but a never-ran comes into play.
Tizen currently makes some small sense on something like a Smart TV (which could use Android, but could go with something else since you can live with "less apps") or a GPS system where it, too, doesn't "need" apps to make it worthwhile as an OS, UI, and target application.
But then, you could go with Android. The developer space is already there and the network effect for it is compelling.
In order to counter that netw
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Ahem. [loseloose.com]
Wat need does it fulfill better (Score:5, Interesting)
(apart from Samsung's need for pressure points vs Google ?)
Tizen needs a unique selling point. Being "a Mobile OS that works" isn't one, that need has been met years ago, and nobody wants Yet Another Smartphone OS for the sake of it.Maybe there's a need at the extreme low-end, next to Microsoft's Asha line (not a resounding success), and a tad below Android One. Maybe Security could be a selling point (except it doesn't seem to be doing much for Blackberry). Maybe there's a fringe of teach-heads who deem Tizen more linux-y than Android and keep agitating about it for that reason (not a big market).
As it stands, the most unfulfilled need I see is the carriers' desire to take back control of our phones, and I'd rather that one stay unfulfilled.
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It would be like TinyBASIC or MicroVMS. A temporary solution to take advantage of cheap hardware but a year down the track, good hardware would be cheap enough to run the real thing.
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Porting (Score:4, Insightful)
If they want to have a chance, they must not have just bundled with a few new phones. It should have good enough ports for other samsung devices (even done officially by samsung) and open enough devices from other major manufacturers. They need to build a critical mass of actual users and a community behind it. And need to be very open. If they want (or must do, if done by another company) may keep some key part (i.e. optional android compatibility app/libraries) as what they sell or license of it and is not fully open source, but the rest should be.
Meego/Maemo failed mostly because it was available mostly on one particular device from one particular manufacturer. They could learn the lesson this time.
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Meego/Maemo failed mostly because it was available mostly on one particular device from one particular manufacturer.
And that manufacturer's CEO had sabotaged that device in every way he could, such as not having it released in most relevant markets, and publicly stating that no other MeeGo device would be made, no matter how well-received it happened to be (reviews at the time were very positive, but always with the caveat that MeeGo was a "dead man walking" system).
There is no doubt in my mind that Stephen Elop is one of the nastiest white-collar criminals ever. Everything he did was to serve Microsoft's interests, with
Well... (Score:5, Interesting)
That said, despite my low hopes, it sure would be nice to see it do better. Despite years of development, Android still bears some serious scars of either things that seemed like a good idea at the time(presumably back when supporting extremely resource constrained devices was still a consideration, in the period not long after it was developed as a successor to the OS used in 'sidekick' devices) or which simply didn't pan out(the not-actually-a-JVM-really-we-swear turned out not to be fast enough, so they added native extensions, and ARM turned out to more or less steamroller the competition in the smartphone space at about the same time, so nobody actually cared whether cross-platform worked or not, except Intel, who simply wrote up another shim to handle ARM native components). They say...nice...things about how well the audio system performs, as well.
It ships on a wide variety of devices that you can actually buy, today; but Android is pretty hard to get enthusiastic about as a pile of stuff dumped on top of Linux. A slightly less dysfunctional pile of stuff wouldn't be revolutionary; but it would be nice.
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I'm going to talk a little bit of personal experience and opinion.
What matters in tech is the "ultra high end".
That is - what is "simply" the BEST device you can get.
Right now it's the Samsung S5
few years before that it was the HTC one
few years before that it was the iPhone.
Then there is everybody else who follows.
Android was a success because the "best" devices (tablet and phone) ran it. we then set the stage for the rest of the market to follow.
Similar story with games consoles and next gen video.
PS3 was
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bring me a 16 core, 4Ghz phone, with a ton of ram and 3 days battery life and whatever OS you put on it will be the new standard.
sigh. If only my Windows laptop was as powerful as that.
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Heh...it does fit the bill well, doesn't it?
The biggest problem, though, with all of this is that the dysfunctional pile (of sh.. if you must know...) sitting there has a massive network effect that you're going to have to counter. The network effect there with Android is going to work massively against you unless you can come out with something compelling. MeeGo could've been it...had they not been dysfunctional in their own way. Tizen...heh...I don't see that going well. I could be wrong. But I suspe
Nope (Score:5, Interesting)
The only reason it exists at all is because Samsung sees Google taking 30% off of app sales and services and it wants that 30% for itself. That might be a wonderful motivating factor for Samsung to push this thing. For everyone else... not so much. Consumers will just see a new platform which has doesn't have the apps they want to use. App developers will just see yet another lame duck platform that they must spend inordinate effort to support or ignore completely.
Unless Samsung money hats devs and hand out free phones like candy, they're not going to get the buy-in to their platform. And even if they do it's no guarantee - Nokia and Blackberry both went down that route trying to buy devs and it didn't pay off.
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Wait, isn't Tizen supposed to be able to run Android apps?
If that's the case then it might not be as hard to tempt devs if all they need to do is list on Samsung's app store while they attempt to sweeten the deal in other ways (higher margins? free spa treatments?).
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Worst of everything (Score:2)
Maybe (Score:2)
It needs to be better from both the users' perspective and from Samsung's.
In my opinion that should be a "native code" system, not a Javascript one.
Native code needs fewer computing resources and thus less energy.
Android is being improved too. Catching up will be (Score:2)
This might be possible if Android were frozen in time, so Tizen could catch up. Unfortunately for Samsung, while they're developing something like Google Now, Google will be developing the next generation. It will be very hard to catch up while Android continues to move forward.
On the other hand, Samsung has huge market share. Of there is anything keeping people on Samsung, some hardware trick or something that only Samsung can offer, they might get enough Tizen users not because people want Tizen but be
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If Samsung can ensure that Android apps run perfectly well on Tizen, including Google apps like maps etc, then they're 80%+ to offering a mobile OS I'd m
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If Samsung can ensure that Android apps run perfectly well on Tizen, including Google apps like maps etc, then they're 80%+ to offering a mobile OS I'd move to if the handset was one I wanted.
The problem is they can't. Look at Blackberry in this department. Blackberry probably has the most mature Android stack running over BB10 / QNX but it's no damned good for apps that want to run background services, or support in-app payments, or use the Google services which the impl doesn't support. Then you're talking about forking the code to produce a BB compatible version stripped of that stuff or rebuilt with a 3rd party library. And Blackberry has another issue - Android apps, run over some Frankandr
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Android compatibility can be a double-edged sword. Without it, they might not have the apps to attract users and without the users, they won't attract the developers to make apps. They fall into the chicken-egg problem that Blackberry has found itself in. Even if the underlying OS is vastly superior, customers won't flock to it without the apps.
On the other hand, if all Android apps work on Tizen, then customers might ask why they should buy a Tizen device instead of a "real Android" device.
Switching off
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Haven't we been here before? (Score:2)
All the arguments made for Tizen were made a few years back for Bada, another Samsung "for entry level phones" OS. It worked on a technical level. At one point it was selling reasonably well in some European markets. I have a Bada phone I bought for development. If you're in the US and never saw Bada, it's because it never made it to the US, and now it's history. Really not sure why Tizen is going to fare differently.
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we will know if it makes the big time (Score:3)
Thanks, but... (Score:2)
Having jumped ship from the iPhone to Android once Android matured and re-purchased all my apps ranging from $.99 to $89.00, I have no desire to switch platforms again, even if many or even "most" Android apps run on Tizen via ACL.
Expected, as it's yet another source of data. (Score:2, Informative)
It makes sense to me That they would create a new OS. Have you ever read their Privacy Policy?
Common http://www.samsung.com/us/comm... [samsung.com]. I have a SamSung_HDTV_32F6300AFXZA It's a Smart TV and lots of bells and whistles as a TV or media player, but I only use it as a computer monitor due to the Privacy Policy.
Which is different than the common one, and the third one you have to agree to while setting up a HDTV.
I do take the time to read privacy policies and ToS's, of all of them SamSung's shows them as being
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The Privacy Policy I read long before the phone or TV states if you have legal issues with Samsung, they claim jurisdiction in some province in South Korea, which you have previously agreed to.
That's meaningless; your local laws will still apply. Microsoft couldn't get out of paying fines in the EU for monopolistic behaviour by saying "tough, you'll have to sue us in Washington". (Well, they could, but then they wouldn't be allowed to trade in the EU).
Can they attract developers? (Score:2)
The big question is: Can they attract developers? If not, they'll need to be able to run Android apps natively. Once you are doing that, why not just run Android, an OS where somebody else bears most of the development cost?
I can see Samsung being more successful at this than Amazon was, but Samsung also doesn't have the motivations Amazon had/has for doing so.
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Despite Android having a much improved java engine, it's still lacking in a lot of ways:
Won't happen. Android is matured and leads in apps (Score:4, Insightful)
Android has matured and leads in apps. And it's freely available for a wide range of devices already. I don't see anybody coming close to the package Google can offer, tie-in services included. Apple sells hardware - their services are a loss. MS sells business software, subscriptions to MS Office, Consoles and now tablets. AFAICT they are behind in comodity computing now.
Google makes money selling *you*. They can give away all their stuff for free, including their services. As soon as one vendor has to pay extra to adapt Tizen, there will be a strong incentive to look into Android again. Or Chrome OS as the case may be. All Google needs to do is perhaps offer a few cheap-and-easy co-branding options for their OS.
Google wants to bring the second half of humanity online, along with any hardware vendor that cares to emphasise the bottom line.
I think they have a very good chance of succeeding.
My 2 cents.
Where's the Linux phones? (Score:2)
So I'm waiting for Linux phones, essentially I probably trust Canonical more
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So wildly successful and used for shifting trillions of dollars around? Java has very little in common with COBOL, except features that all languages have in common. What should they have used instead of Java? The memory leak brothers C and C++? Javascript? LISP? FORTRAN?
The reason why phone apps are popular is because they're a lot easier to use and a lot more functional than web apps. How do you query your device's hardware from a browser? How do you turn the flash on and
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Java has very little in common with COBOL, except features that all languages have in common.
Java is almost as unnecessarily wordy as COBOL. Almost...
ugh... (Score:2)
Really hope not, as the last thing the world needs is another locked up portable media player with a mobile network connection.
I had high hopes for Around 3.x/4.0, but since then Google has bent over backwards to placate big media while trying to pass the changes off as security improvements.
Maybe in China (Score:2)
X windows? (Score:2)
Is Tizen running X-windows?
That is one thing I like about my N900: I can pretty easily compile old x-windows programs, and I can ssh to a remote machine and pop up a remote program. Or I can just copy my python-gtk scripts to my phone and they just work.
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No, as far as I know it runs Wayland. The same as Jolla. I would replace my aging N9 with a new Linux phone with X11, but sadly there is none. We now have Linux phones with no backwards compatibility to Linux... Sigh.
Software from Samsung = NO THANKS! (Score:2)
Horrible Dev Environment (Score:3)
I once saw a full grown man in tears while he was trying to write a simple Tizen app.
I attended a Hackthon once where a team was trying to write a Tizen app, and at the end of the Hackathon none of them were speaking to each other.
Seriously, it's like pulling teeth. I've been an Android/IOS/Blackberry developer for more years than I care to admit, and I'd rather carve "Hello World!" into my own flesh than write it in Tizen.
Why not just a Samsung app store? (Score:2)
If Samsung wants to muscle Apple and Google on app/software sales, don't they have the might to create an independent app store for their phones? I don't believe there is anything that would prevent it as Amazon sells Android apps independent of Google's app store. That would be much less risky and complex than trying to introduce yet another smartphone OS into what is already available.
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Verizon has their own independent app store on their phones, too. Does anyone use it? Not really...
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Hipster shit is just too mainstream for you?
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What market gap does it fill?
As I see it, Android's big problem is privacy, we're just waiting for the time when politicians and journos realize that every App on their Android phone is tracking them, their kids, their families, and their personal and private lives.
When that happens, the public will get a rude wake up call, and so a fork of Android will likely be the next Android. A fork that is privacy focused.
Isn't that Cyanogen-mod?
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*not available on all models
** hardware may not function correctly
Yeah, I had to choose a phone on which Cyanogen-mod was available to get it, but the hardware is working correctly.
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There are some changes you can make, that don't compromise the function much and thwart the less competent bugs (eg. being able to 'lie' and grant an app access to a falsified version of a resource); but if y
It's called Replicant (Score:3)
What market gap does it fill?
As I see it, Android's big problem is privacy, we're just waiting for the time when politicians and journos realize that every App on their Android phone is tracking them, their kids, their families, and their personal and private lives.
When that happens, the public will get a rude wake up call, and so a fork of Android will likely be the next Android. A fork that is privacy focused.
Tizen at the moment can run Android apps, but then why wouldn't you simply fork Android and ditch the Google/Facebook/Skype/Samsung etc. spyware?
There is already a fork Android project out there w/ the goals you mentioned: it's called Replicant [replicant.us] Not sure what state that project is in.
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I don't think so - it would leave you buying a Tizen Note PDA and running all your old Android apps on it using the compatibility layer its got.
no... (Score:4, Insightful)
Betteridge's Law of Headlines again.
Re:no... (Score:5, Insightful)
Betteridge's Law of Headlines (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes it is.
Re:no... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Samsung would never become Tizen-only shop. They would go on making all possible devices, Android and WinPho included.
Otherwise, Nokia lost its #1 position because they have failed to adapt their devices to new markets. That is precisely what Samsung tries to avoid with the Tizen. Since there is no Google to set the rules what can and cannot be an Android device and OS, Samsung (and others) can tweak Tizen to fit pretty much any device they like. After all, Tizen is larger than Samsung and is not exclusiv [wikipedia.org]