Clinton Plan To Power Every US Home With Renewables By 2027 Is Achievable 528
Lucas123 writes: As part of her campaign pledge, Hillary Clinton has said she would make it a priority in her first term to increase the number of solar panels by 500M and U.S. installed solar capacity from 21 gigawatts (GW) today to 140GW by the end of 2020. Her plan, is to increase solar, wind and other renewables so that they'd provide 33% of America's electricity by 2027, enough to power every home. While the plan may sound overly ambitious, experts say, it's not. Today, renewables provide about 15% of America's power. Shayle Kann, senior vice president at GTM Research, said the Clinton's renewable energy goal is doable, but with caveats. In order to achieve the goal, current programs, such as federal tax breaks for solar installations (set to expire next year), must continue and future initiatives, such as Obama's Clean Power Plan that will begin in 2018, must not be curtailed. Considering that if elected, Clinton wouldn't take office until 2017, the her campaign goals could be more bravado than reality. Clinton, however, is not alone. While most candidates have yet to announce their clean energy plans, Clinton's Democratic contender, Martin O'Malley, also came out with strong support for the end of fossil fuel use and a full clean energy economy by 2050, and creating a national goal of doubling energy efficiency within 15 years.
21 Gigawats? (Score:5, Funny)
Great Scott!!!!!!!
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Folks living in Florida selling power to the north will be chuckling. Jeb Bush should be all bug-eyed with the profit potential.
Re:21 Gigawats? (Score:5, Insightful)
In northern areas, you pitch the solar panels at an angle, and many houses have them on the high slope south facing roofs. There are these things called brushes we use to clean off snow so it doesn't collapse our roofs. My dad lives in a house in Vermont that is solar powered for electricity and hot water, and he survives the winters quite nicely. Helps if you have R28 insulation and triple pane windows too.
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I live in South-Western Ontario, there are a lot of houses here which still have doors on their second floor because the winters used to be so severe(though I'll bet the folks north of London ~6 years ago were glad they did when they got 22'/6.7m of snow in three days). The last 20 years though it's been less of an issue, but we don't usually get snowfalls often enough where we have to remove snow from our roofs here or in that particular area of the US.
Though there's a guy a few blocks away who got a FiT
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Damn...it is gonna get mighty cold in them houses up north, on cloudy winter days with snow piled up halfway to the roofline when the solar panels are damned near useless, no?
There are a lot of naysayers telling us how one thing or the other won't work but we didn't get to where we are as a civilization by listening to them. It's the people with the "can do" attitude that lead us to the future.
Political Hot Air (Score:3)
It's the people with the "can do" attitude that lead us to the future.
A can-do attitude is useful when you have an idea about how to do something new and nay-sayers then argue against that idea ever working. What we have here is a political goal with no clue about how to achieve it which is not the same thing. The problem with a 100 % 'renewable' energy solution is that the power is very variable. Show me a plan to deal with that and I'll be interested. Until then this appears nothing more than political hot air.
By my calculations (Score:5, Funny)
To put 21 gigawatts in perspective, that's approximately 17 trips through time.
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"Jigawat" is the accepted pronunciation for the term involving electricity. according to Webster's dictionary
That dictionary can't even spell colour correctly so it's hardly surprising it doesn't know how to pronounce the words either.
headline is misleading (Score:3, Insightful)
headline says:
Clinton Plan To Power Every US Home With Renewables By 2027 Is Achievable
but the summary says
Her plan, is to increase solar, wind and other renewables so that they'd provide 33% of America's electricity by 2027, enough to power every home.
what this means is that the amount of renewable generation would equal residential use, not that each house would be 100% renewable.
In CA Southern California Edison is currently 22% renewable, and they have plans to go to 27%. This doesn't include home generation like rooftop solar panels, which should count for the 33% goal.
Re:headline is misleading (Score:5, Insightful)
The headline is sufficient for those who do not understand how the power grid works, and anyone who knows how the power grid works would not be misled by the headline.
Even though my bill says "100% wind" on it, and somewhere out there are windmill(s) generating as much electricity as my home consumes, the actual power consumed in my house might just as easily come from the coal plants up the highway. It's all on the same grid.
If you understand that, then it's obvious that "Power Every US Home With Renewables" means "Generate As Much Renewable Energy As All Homes Consume". What appears on the bills of those homeowners is irrelevant.
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The headline is sufficient for those who do not understand how the power grid works, and anyone who knows how the power grid works would not be misled by the headline.
Even though my bill says "100% wind" on it, and somewhere out there are windmill(s) generating as much electricity as my home consumes, the actual power consumed in my house might just as easily come from the coal plants up the highway. It's all on the same grid.
If you understand that, then it's obvious that "Power Every US Home With Renewables" means "Generate As Much Renewable Energy As All Homes Consume". What appears on the bills of those homeowners is irrelevant.
I disagree. If utilities had to provide 100% renewable power to every home, then it would need to have significant overcapacity, because it would need enough renewables for the PM peak and have idle renewables during other times. So to power homes with 100% renewables you would need to have many times more renewable capacity than homes consume.
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Or we develop a good way to store the energy. We could invest in better batteries, or we can pump water up a hill, or lift heavy things to high places, or spin things really fast in a vacuum, or use the energy to split water molecules, etc.
Maybe we would lose a lot of energy transferring it from one form to another, but it's better than just wasting it to heat immediately.
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The headline is sufficient for those who do not understand how the power grid works, and anyone who knows how the power grid works would not be misled by the headline.
I disagree.
Even though my bill says "100% wind" on it, and somewhere out there are windmill(s) generating as much electricity as my home consumes, the actual power consumed in my house might just as easily come from the coal plants up the highway. It's all on the same grid.
Fair enough: electricity is fungible, and it doesn't matter what powers what (if it is even possible to tell).
If you understand that, then it's obvious that "Power Every US Home With Renewables" means "Generate As Much Renewable Energy As All Homes Consume". What appears on the bills of those homeowners is irrelevant.
If you had said enough /power/ for all homes then I'd agree there too, but that is much more difficult than generating enough energy, because you have to deliver it reliably and match the demand curve. By only counting the energy you are saying two things:
1. That the non-domestic part of the grid will reserve enough spare capacity to cover any shortfall from renewables.
2. That you can dum
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For some reason this seems to be the way renewable levels are always quoted. Scotland plans to be 100% renewable by 2020, but only by generating 200% of what it needs with half from renewables and exporting the excess. Well, they have a lot of wind up there.
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Scotland plans to be 100% renewable by 2020, but only by generating 200% of what it needs with half from renewables and exporting the excess.
Well, that sounds like more SNP massive head-in-the-clouds wishful thinking to me.
http://www.withouthotair.com/s... [withouthotair.com]
Page 2 contains a chart for the whole of britain. Cover tthe entire south facing country's roofs with solar panels. Put wind farms on over the top 10% of windiest land and put 500km of wave machines along the roughest parts of the coastline. And that match
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Re:headline is misleading (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, this is a campaign promise.
You've already fallen for it! It's NOT a campaign promise. It's an aspiration. A "priority." The president can no more wave her hands and make such a thing happen than he or she can wave his or her hands and make healthcare get cheaper. Now THAT was a campaign promise ("You can keep your doctor. Period. You can keep your plan. Period. The average household will save $2,500 year on health insurance, and it will start costing about what a mobile phone does.") See the difference?
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people's plans started to change in 2013/2014 as insurance companies started to adjust their offerings to take into consideration obamacare. For some consumers the price of their existing plan went up, for other consumers the health insurance company dropped the plan completely. In other cases while the ins co still offered the plan, the employer took this as an opportunity to save money by downgrading the quality of plans that are available to employees, or as my HR person called it, making plans "less ric
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the first iteration
Hilarious.
What does it matter if there is some future change to the law (not counting the illegal unilateral changes made by the president by selectively choosing whether to follow the statute's specific requirements once he realized it wasn't politically expedient). If you've already lost your insurance plan, or you've had to give up your doctor, and can no longer use the convenient nearby hospital because of the law's impact (all things that we were promised wouldn't happen, which the law's partisan a
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See: http://www.politifact.com/trut... [politifact.com]
About half of promises kept and a quarter partially kept; doesn't really match "broken like almost all...". Perhaps the problem is that you only vote for politicians who plan on breaking their promises? If so, then the problem is probably not with the politicians.
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Funny goal (Score:2)
Why solar? (Score:4, Insightful)
The latest complete electrical production stats (2013) [eia.gov] put renewables at 12.8%. 6.6% of that is hydro, 4.1% is wind, 1% is burning wood (yes it's a renewable), 0.5% is "other biomass" - mostly natural gas captured from landfills, 0.4% is geothermal, and only 0.22% is solar (thermal and photovoltaic). Solar isn't last because of some grand conspiracy. It's last because it's the most expensive [wikipedia.org].
Why would you want to put the most expensive technology on the fast track for widescale adoption? Because it taps into the wishes and dreams of those who don't know better? The whole point of being an elected official is that your sole job is to learn this stuff so you can make better decisions about it than the voters who elected you who don't have the time (or sometimes the capability) to learn this stuff. A more well-reasoned approach would be to encourage wider adoption of wind (hydro is pretty much tapped out in the U.S., and wind is just a hair's breadth more expensive than coal), while continuing subsidies into solar R&D. Encouraging wide-scale adoption of PV solar at current levels of technology and cost is wasteful and foolish when better alternatives exist.
Re:Why solar? (Score:5, Interesting)
Solar is currently the most expensive renewable by far.
Huh? This thinking seems outdated. Average solar has reached (and beaten) cost parity with all competing generation except for about the top 50%, top 25% of wind projects, and nearly all consequential new hydro proposals. ABY is adding solar yield projects with better returns than prior wind and hydro projects developed under more lucrative subsidy regimes... Projects are breaking ground with PPAs in the sub 6 cent range. First Solar, Recurrent Energy are successfully building projects and generating gross margins of 15-20% by selling power at 0.0387 $/kWh and .047 $/kWh respectively. They are doing it for 5 and 6 cents all over the world, even locations without subsidy. That is competitive with virtually any new energy construction. Companies building owning these projects are and will outgrow the global economy for foreseeable future (absent all subsidies) and then become the most impressive profit machines in the history of markets within a few decades. Minting money from fully-depreciated assets like the world has never seen (haha, except from current utilities :) ) I don't think you fully comprehend the economics of a maintenance free, nearly indestructible, fully-depreciated, solid state, money making machine. And thus business plan can scale to several % of global GDP without a hitch...
but the technology just isn't there yet (at least without tremendous expense).
Huh? Specifically what are the technological challenges? Today's technology will likely generate 70% of its nameplate capacity 50 years from now. All components are now offered standard with warranties that will last the entire amortization period. Solar panels and micro inverters would be among if not the most durable and reliable products in your home. Solar energy is available at higher energy density than necessary for single family construction and multi family construction less than 4 stories, aside from that there is no shortage of cheap land, even cheap land at favorable transmission and distribution locations.
There are tens of millions + homes all over the country for which a homeowner with good credit can go net positive energy using a cash flow positive PV investment (e.g. PV + financing = cheaper than utility bill) and actually provide a pretty good return on investment that has lower risk and better return than many different financial vehicles that would be sold to you as part of a balanced portfolio. For a solar array producing power after the 20-25% amortization period, the reduction in total cost of ownership for the home over the lifetime of these components will be tens of thousands of dollars.
You are clearly not up to speed on the technology, the production costs, the financing, or the global explosion in the industry.You have rested on some older state of knowledge too long. The technology awesome. The economics are extremely favorable. The only barrier is the transition to an enlightened long term view about power production. Don't blame cheap, high performance technology for man's failure to identify the obvious advantages of long term thinking.
Re:Why solar? (Score:4, Informative)
First Solar, Recurrent Energy are successfully building projects and generating gross margins of 15-20% by selling power at 0.0387 $/kWh and .047 $/kWh respectively. They are doing it for 5 and 6 cents all over the world, even locations without subsidy. That is competitive with virtually any new energy construction
No it isn't, but thanks for playing. Note that you listed 2 rates, then noted it costs more elsewhere "without subsidy".
So those rates aren't real and couldn't be scaled up because they are being bought down with tax dollars.
You are clearly not up to speed on the technology, the production costs, the financing, or the global explosion in the industry.You have rested on some older state of knowledge too long. The technology awesome. The economics are extremely favorable. The only barrier is the transition to an enlightened long term view about power production.
The irony is that you need a mirror, you're the one with fantasy thinking...
Let me help you out with a specific, real example.
I just signed an agreement for power for my business. Thanks to the dropping price of oil and natural gas, my rate is going down for the first time in awhile.
I'll be paying 6.2 cents per kwh for the first 2,000 kwh and 6.8 cents per kwh for everything over 2,000 kwh. That is the total bill price. That is very cheap for such low usage and it includes everything, from power delivery to generation to taxes. The source of that power is a mix of coal, natural gas, and nuclear.
The same company can provide me with 100% renewables if I want it, 9.1 cents per kwh for the first 2K and 9.6 cents beyond that.
So renewables are 50% more than coal and natural gas where I live.
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In a word: China.
China installed 12GW of solar in 2013. That's with current technology and production. From what I've heard (that I have no links to, sorry--this may actually be hearsay, but from what I know of the Chinese, it's certainly plausible), China basically cribbed the notes of companies from other countries that were manufacturing solar panels in Chinese factories. They turned around and started using all that tech to build their own stuff, and in one year installed more solar than anyone.
But Chin
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Germany is powered by coal oil and gas, with a veneer of solar (https://www.energy-charts.de/energy.htm), has some of the dirtiest power around, and it's little bit of solar has made it some of the most expensive power around...
Get the power from source to consumer (Score:3)
If the solar panels that are opined are to be installed are on the consumers' houses, how will the power distribution grid need to be changed?
If solar panels are in the desert somewhere, will a new distribution system need to be built (along what right of way?) to carry the electricity from the desert to the consumers?
In other words, don't just look at the power generation source, also look at getting that generated power to the consumer.
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Transmission costs are a fraction of production costs. This is unlikely to change.
Storage is a legitimate concern, but "luckily" large parts of the US are heavily dependent on air conditioning. Some areas need air conditioning at night as well, but I am sure people will start getting creative once daytime energy costs trend towards zero.
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RIghts of way are pretty easy in the desert, actually...
But you're right that this will take some major changes in the power distribution grid. Some of those changes are already being done. Slapping solar panels on a house doesn't magically solve all of your problems. But the problems it causes are solvable (and in ways that involve burning few hydrocarbons).
She won't be president (Score:3, Interesting)
She was basically expected to fail. For various political reasons within the DNC she needed to be given the presumption of a chance but there was an understanding from the start that she'd not go anywhere.
Sort of like the republicans running John McCain or something... the know he's not going to win. They might even nominate him... but if they do... they know he's not going anywhere.
Hillary is the same thing and so is Bernie or Trump. the political forces that know anything know that these people are the opening circus attraction.
Behind Hillary there are a lot of people in the Dem ranks that can stand up and be more credible than her. And they will especially since Hillary appears to be self destructing faster than anything believed possible. This email thing is getting increasingly serious. I doubt she's going to jail over it but... it is looking like something nasty could come out of it. The sweater is getting unraveled.
On the other political side you have Trump... who also will not be president. Its not going to happen. Even if he got the nomination and he won't... but even if he did... he'd still lose.
So who cares what these people say they would do. I might as well stand up and say what I would do if I were president. Or anyone else on slashdot... Stand up and tell us what you'd do if you were president.
Whatever you said matters about as much as Hillary's various schemes to get enough votes to get her party's nomination.
I will say this... IF Hillary got nominated... she might win. She'd have a D after her name and that is a very powerful thing in an election. But... I don't think she's going to get nominated.
She's kind of a female Al Gore in a lot of ways. Neither Gore nor her wants to associate with Bill Clinton but neither of them would even be considered for high office without that association. I don't know why they distance themselves from Bill. If I were either of them I'd walk around on stage as Bill Clinton gave me piggybacks. As much as possible, I'd try to make people think they were voting for Bill Clinton.
Bill Clinton could actually win again... I mean... legality and term limits aside... people like him. No one likes Hillary. Even her supporters don't like her. They feel comfortable with her maybe or they think her politics are right or whatever. But they don't like her. Who wants to have a beer with Hillary? or a glass of wine or anything? No one likes her. Bill is funny. He's got stories. He's charming. You'd have a good time and he projects that in his politics and personality.
Hillary projects... Agnes from accounting... The woman in the office that does something boring and repetitive that no one cares about... she goes home every day at 5pm and people assume she has a lot of cats because of the pictures of cats all over her cubicle...
I mean seriously... imagine if Hillary were not a politican but just some person. Would you want to know her or spend any time with her?
Exactly. I mean... I'd rather spend time with Trump then her... and Trump is insane. But Trump is at least amusing. I'd likely deck him every so often... and doubtless he'd call the cops on me because I assume he's a whiny bitch on the subject. But... people you want to spend time with versus not is relevant in politics. Likability.
And that's a problem for old Hill. She isn't getting the nomination. I don't see it. And if she does... she's one of the weaker presidential candidates the dems could field.
I'd actually fear Bernie more in this election if I were the republicans more than Hillary. I mean... bernie is a frizzy haired crack pot. But he's at least sincere. He actually believes the shit that comes out of his mouth. Hillary doesn't believe anything. Those are just animal sounds she makes to lull the peasants. Everything is focus groups, talking points, lobbying scripts... she licks her finger, holds it up to the wind, and that's her position.
And I think THAT perception is going to be very hard for her to overcome.
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As I understand it, presidential term limits only apply to consecutive terms. So, seeing as there have been a couple of other guys in office, Bill could come back for 2 more terms.
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It does not matter whether or not the terms are consecutive. Read the 22nd amendment.
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I wish I could vote for the real Al Gore.
At What Cost? (Score:2)
Clinton Plan To Power Every US Home With Renewables By 2027 Is Achievable
Many things are achievable but still not worth doing:
Dude 1: "So I got wasted, hooked up with that skanky 60-year old fat chick from the bar, lost my car keys and walked home in the rain, slipped and fell in a pile of dogshit."
Dude 2: "That's...achievable!"
Anyway, the kind of people who work for a living and pay taxes might ask, "so how much is this going to cost me?"
Well it might not be as bad as Obama's plan which, in his own words [youtube.com], would cause electricity prices to "necessarily skyrocket."
Though if we e
Here's an idea.... (Score:4, Funny)
Maybe Hillary could conduct a pilot project in her own home. Throw a few panels on the roof. It might even generate enough to power an email server.
Umm...it appears that the email server has been disconnected. Well, never mind. It's the thought that counts :-)
In related news... (Score:2)
Clinton also announced a new initiative to replace the warplanes of the American air force with modern and environmentally sound flying pigs. "It is an achievable goal," she is quoted as saying. Whether or nor this meant it was a desirable one to achieve was not addressed by the candidate.
Re:In related news... (Score:5, Funny)
We already have the F-35.
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funner question: is this before or after the FEMA camps are activated
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How the hell much is this going to cost?
Likely a crapload more than the so called "expert" who is really from from a solar/wind industry media outlet tells us it will.
Re:Fun question: (Score:5, Insightful)
Or maybe due to negative externalities that weren't properly internalized into the price of energy, energy prices have been artificially low all along, encouraging people to live energy-intensive lifestyles, and now all of a sudden they have to pay the piper.
Nah, that couldn't possibly be true at all.
Re:Fun question: (Score:4, Interesting)
Here's one example: The cost of air pollution in the San Joaquin Valley is more than $1,600 per person per year, or $6 billion to the region's economy, according to the researchers. [fullerton.edu]
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Re:For the last goddamn time (Score:5, Insightful)
Would you prefer "naturally replenishing on a scale that is non-depletable in any practical sense at the present time"? It takes a little longer to say, but maybe it would be more to your liking?
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"naturally replenishing on a scale that is non-depletable in any practical sense at the present time"
I like that definition. Registering.
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"naturally replenishing on a scale that is non-depletable in any practical sense at the present time"?
But not counting hydro, even though it totally overwhelms all the other renewables, because it's Evil and Corporate.
Re:For the last goddamn time (Score:4, Interesting)
Or maybe because hydro is mature and already close to peak, so giving it incentives would not help the overall energy picture? The point of most of the "renewable energy bills" is to drive development and deployment of a large range of renewables. If solar panels become much cheaper/better (such that "the market" will handle it) then I'd expect solar panel subsidies to dry up. To my uninformed view, it looks like wind may be approaching that level?
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Hydro is not anywhere near peak. Unless you mean "we can't build any more dams because environmental concerns".
California is waking up to the realization that All those regulations mean squat when there is a real drought, and the only thing saving the mini fish are the dams we built that they said was killing them off. Maybe now, we can build some more dams
Re:For the last goddamn time (Score:5, Funny)
Coal is also 'naturally replenishing on a scale that is non-depletable in any practical sense at the present time'.
Who knew we were already so green?
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Fast enough that there is no chance of it running out.
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Coal?
Yes, coal is indeed likely being used faster than it is replenished.
Does this matter if we have 50,000 years of coal in the ground?
The current estimates are based only on existing mines, the whole bloody planet is swimming in coal and oil.
Note: This doesn't mean I think we should burn it all, I actually don't. We just have a LOT of it...
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There is no such thing as "renewable" energy. It's only a goddamn law of thermodynamics.
Wow. Second post in the thread and it's already the hands-down winner of the "Pendantic Dipshit" award.
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Pedantic!
dammit.
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There is no such thing as "renewable" energy. It's only a goddamn law of thermodynamics.
Wow. Second post in the thread and it's already the hands-down winner of the "Pendantic Dipshit" award.
Do I get the Pedantic and Off-Topic Dipshit award for pointing out that there's no such thing as inorganic produce? :)
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Re:Is anyone against distributed solar/wind power? (Score:4, Insightful)
Heck, she could have asked around for predictions of renewable adoption so she could announce a "plan" to get us to 33%, knowing in advance that it will happen on its own. That way if she wins, she can look like a success without having to do anything. Not the worst idea ever.
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I agree. We should also let the market decide if the military and the police are worth paying for. Instead of forcing taxes to the home owners, every citizen should pay whatever they think military and police are worth. What could possibly go wrong?
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All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the government^WRomans ever done for us?
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If we decide that the market should choose the best solution for energy, wouldn't it be a "slippery slope" fallacy to automatically decide that the market should also choose the best solution for national defense and law enforcement?
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The market is NOT the best solution for energy. The market will always produce too much energy from polluting sources.
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Even a market free of market failures such as negative externalities?
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Police and military aren't part of the market system since they're functions of the government. Energy is part of the market system, you have choices. For now.
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And why would you choose renewable if they are more expensive than fossil fuels? You don't. That's why we need central planing to force stuff such as environment protection. There are various ways to achieve this however. One way is to tax fossil fuels, and then let "the market" decide which renewable is best.
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Are you agreeing or disagreeing?
If you're going to use punitive taxation to force the market to "decide" on something, that's not democracy. What next? I get taxed extra if I don't vote Democrat or don't belong to a labor union? If people don't like the system of government that we're supposed to have, the appropriate solution is to amend the constitution, not to grossly pervert the intentionally limited functions of the federal government to get around its intentional restrictions.
This has little to do
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We should also let the market decide if the military and the police are worth paying for.
There are a few people who believe that we don't need a government; that the free market can solve all problems up to and including national defense. These people are called anarcho-capitalists [wikipedia.org].
Other people believe that government should handle things for people that the people cannot handle for themselves, and military and police fall into the latter category. I am in this camp; I consider myself a minarchist [wikipedia.org].
Still o
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On the other hand, privatized fire departments actually work
No they don't. It's a rarely used service which is a lot more efficient if everyone is paying for it. It is not efficient at all to move the whole fire department over to a house just to watch it burn and make sure it doesn't spread to neighbors.
It's also a natural monopoly. It wouldn't be efficient to have two competing fire departments in a small town. It's much better to have a larger one with better equipment. And even then, it's better when nearby towns collaborate in the event of a large fire.
Just bec
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It was the insurance company that changed your doctor or your plan, not the ACA.
Yes... because of ACA...
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Sometimes because of ACA, though I've heard rumors that in the decades before the ACA insurance companies sometimes changed their policy offerings without Obama causing it! Seems unlikely I know...
But yeah, the ACA did change a lot of "good if you never needed them" plans. You would think that the free market would have weeded out either the shysters who offered those plans or the gullible marks who bought them, but that never seems to happen in practice.
The ACA doesn't kill insurance plans, insurance com
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ACA caused doctors to change what plans they accept due to the amount insurance companies pay out based on changed due to ACA.
For example, my wife accepts Blue Cross/Blue Shield of Texas, but only for PPO plans outside of the exchanges. If you're on the cheap HMO plan on the federal exchange your insurance doesn't work for her.
A number of her patients used to be covered, until their old plans were discontinued and they were moved to new plans that she wasn't on. These changes were directly caused by ACA.
T
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The ACA was well intentioned
No it wasn't. IT was designed from the beginning to snooker the American people into a broken "insurance" scam designed to break the medical/insurance industry. It was designed to fail, so that Americans would jump into single payer, crap healthcare.
You can keep your plan (Lie)
It isn't a tax (Lie)
You can keep your doctor(Lie)
It will cost less(Lie)
You'll have better coverage (Lie)
And I am sure supporters will provide anecdotal evidence that some of these claims were true for them. Plenty of people lost their
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BUT who cares, Cecil the lion is dead!
Yea, the outrage over that is amazing...
People are so stupid, I sometimes have little hope for humanity.
If you want to care about something, how about the thousands of miles of coral reef that China is destroying to build islands in the South China Sea? That is FAR more damaging to the planet than a lion dying.
But no one cares, because they aren't being told to care, because people are idiots and sheep. Which I guess isn't new, but it is sad. :(
Re: (Score:3)
"legitimate insurance plan"
It was legitimate before ObamaCare. Simply writing a law didn't change that.
AND if you're asking me, ObamaCare isn't a "legitimate insurance plan" it is a tax. If it isn't a tax, then it is unconstitutional.
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It isn't a tax, as in it's not a line-item on your tax bill
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf... [irs.gov]
Health care: individual responsibility (see instructions) Full-year coverage []
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf... [irs.gov]
Health care: individual responsibility.
You must either:
Indicate on line 61 that you, your
spouse (if filing jointly), and your dependents
had health care coverage
throughout 2014,
Claim an exemption from the
health care coverage requirement for
some or all of 2014 and attach Form
8965, or
Make a shared responsibility payment
if, for any month in 2014, you,
your spouse (if f
Re:Samzenpus got hit in the head this morning (Score:4, Informative)
Sometimes because of ACA, though I've heard rumors that in the decades before the ACA insurance companies sometimes changed their policy offerings without Obama causing it! Seems unlikely I know...
But yeah, the ACA did change a lot of "good if you never needed them" plans. You would think that the free market would have weeded out either the shysters who offered those plans or the gullible marks who bought them, but that never seems to happen in practice.
The ACA doesn't kill insurance plans, insurance companies kill insurance plans. (Yeah, this version is just as nonsensical).
ACA does kill the plans by making them no longer affordable. When the president or his lobbyists can add new things and require them to be covered at 100%, a lot of cheaper plans that younger people would have wanted fall apart.
And regardless, Obama is the one that made the claim that insurance would be cheaper once everyone was on it. That hasn't worked out at all as lots of people predicted.
Archangel Michael is correct. This was not a well intentioned plan. It was a plan designed to crash the current health system while making it look to be the fault of the evil insurance companies.
Say what you will about Obama, he is very good at making himself look like the victim being picked on by mean bullies. Name one debate where he didn't use the phrase "common sense solution" and then criticize or make fun of everyone who didn't agree with him
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Now, out of that small handful of people, which one cares about us exactly?
The only person who has a remote chance of caring about us is Trump.
Wait, wait, don't bring out the pitch forks... yea, I know he is a walking ego trip, yes he is a arrogant SOB...
I am well aware of that... but he also has nothing to gain by screwing us at this point. He is now old, very wealthy, and has nothing else to do but take the country in a new direction. He also isn't owned by lobbyists or 30 years of political connections the way Bush and Clinton are.
If Bush or Clinton are elected, exactly not
Re:Talking points? (Score:5, Insightful)
If Bush or Clinton are elected, exactly nothing will change.
Last time we had a Clinton, we shrunk the deficit down to zero and grew the middle class and the economy.
Last time we had a Bush, we exploded the deficit, started multiple wars that we couldn't end, and crippled the economy.
While I too wish that the parties and candidates were a bit more different, I'm not sure you can call them identical...
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And this was done by adding social security to the general fund which was nothing more than an accounting gimmick.
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The only person who has a remote chance of caring about us is Sanders.
Fixed. He may be a relative fringe candidate, but as the election approaches, so will become Trump.
Re:Talking points? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm afraid you're equating change with good.
Change is not the equivalent to good. Change is change. The only thing you know about change is that it's not "no change".
Trump is change. It's a big change. You get the possible benefits you've listed out. And you'll also get a raving lunatic on an ego trip. That's a marked change from the past 24-28 years.
But is it a good change? Because a big change can mean really good. And it can mean really bad. And since we're a little bad right now, really good would net us good, but really bad nets really, really bad.
Are the benefits of Trump's "big changes" worth the risk? That's for you to decide I guess.
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"Will it turn out well? Hard to say, we won't really know without trying, but at some point we either try something new, or accept the current situation forever."
I have never set myself on fire but I really don't need to try it to see if it is a good idea.
Re:Talking points? (Score:5, Insightful)
The only person who has a remote chance of caring about us is Trump.
Wait, wait, don't bring out the pitch forks... yea, I know he is a walking ego trip, yes he is a arrogant SOB.. I am well aware of that... but he also has nothing to gain by screwing us at this point. .
That doesn't mean he cares about you, it just means he's responding to different incentives.
He is now old, very wealthy, and has nothing else to do but take the country in a new direction.
He also isn't owned by lobbyists or 30 years of political connections the way Bush and Clinton are.
If Bush or Clinton are elected, exactly nothing will change. If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always gotten.
The fact he has different baggage doesn't he has no baggage. If anything I'd say he's more likely to have some massive skeletons stuffed in the closet of an unsavoury operator.
As for a new direction 'new' doesn't necessary mean better, I don't see how a guy batting to the looniest of the fringes is going to be a change for the better.
At least Trump will kick over the table and say, "new direction".
Will it turn out well? Hard to say, we won't really know without trying, but at some point we either try something new, or accept the current situation forever.
Just read this twitter exchange [boingboing.net]. It's not a policy position or anything like that but I think it's illustrative.
First, who in their right mind gets in an insult fight with a professional comedy writer?
Second, once they're in that fight who throws out insults like a 5 year old and acts like they're kicking ass?
Trump was obviously once competent enough at one thing to make billions, but at this point, in this context, it's pretty clear that he's spent so long surrounded with yes-men that he's completely out of touch with reality. The prospect of having him in power scares me more than Sarah Palin.
Re:Talking points? (Score:4, Insightful)
At the end of the day I'd expect a Palin Whitehouse to be a bit of chaos quickly taken over by bureaucrats as she realizes that being President is a) confusing, and b) a lot of hard work. It would be incompetent and shoddily run but the kind of damage people can work around.
Trump is the kind of person who will follow through with an absolutely terrible idea because it's his idea and he won't let anyone deter him, he can cause real damage.
Have you stopped to consider that some of his comments of the past few months are actually quite carefully considered? He would not be getting anything close to the media attention without them, he is leading the republican polls, so clearly he is doing something right.
Have you stopped to consider he's only polling so high because he has huge name recognition and he's essentially a sideshow. The Republican primaries have been a gong-show since 2012 and I'm doubtful that most of the people indicating him would be actually do so if they thought he had a chance of winning.
Why does everyone want to hire a lawyer or professional lifetime politician to be President, instead of a CEO?
Another example, Steve Jobs was a PITA to work for, he'd yell, scream, tell you were you a moron, yet he clearly knew something.
Some of the nicest people in the world would make for crappy leaders.
CEO is a very different skillset than President. I don't have any objection to CEOs as Presidents in general though I think Trump would be terrible. Jobs too, I don't think he'd have been bad, but the things that made him special as a CEO wouldn't translate to being a President.
And back to Trump, have you considered the possibility that his behaviour is just some early manifestation of senile dementia? I don't want to focus on it because it sounds very insulting, but at the same time his behaviour and seeming obliviousness is downright bizarre. He wouldn't be the first politician past retirement age to start acting erratically and be diagnosed with dementia a few years later, if you're considering him for President I think it's a possibility you have to take seriously.
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Yes...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/pe... [forbes.com]
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Consider the source - a pathological liar (Score:4, Insightful)
If lying wins an election, then lying is not the problem.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Um, we don't have a state income tax in WA. Doubt it.
We already subsidize your fossil fuel tax exemptions and other tax giveaways to your Chinese overlords.
Re: (Score:3)
In my sun-drenched community, a few wealthy Republican early adopters have rooftop solar installations that supply all their needs.
I'm curious about your methodology. Can you elaborate on how you determined their affiliation? Do you personally know all the people in your community with rooftop solar or did you determine their party affiliation in some other manner?
Can you also clarify whether you merely mean that they are registered to vote in republican primaries, or do you have solid evidence that they vote a strict republican hard line in all elections regardless of candidates or issues?
There are a scattering of houses with rooftop