EFF Petitioned To Investigate Windows 10 Upgrades (change.org) 312
An anonymous reader writes: One of the most frustrating things about the ongoing stream of stories about Windows 10 upgrades is that there seems to be no way to hold Microsoft to account. Or perhaps there is: a petition asking the Electronic Frontier Foundation to investigate has now been posted on Change.org.
The petition argues "people are being tricked or forced into upgrading to Windows 10 from their current, preferred version of Windows," and describes Microsoft's actions as "ignorantly unethical at best and malicious at worst."
The petition argues "people are being tricked or forced into upgrading to Windows 10 from their current, preferred version of Windows," and describes Microsoft's actions as "ignorantly unethical at best and malicious at worst."
Windows 10 upgrades are good (Score:5, Funny)
they make people hate windows. This is the first step in installing GNU + systemd.
Re:Windows 10 upgrades are good (Score:5, Funny)
I think GNU/system===D is pretty great. It has a lot of features in common with Linux, and is partially compatible with that OS.
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Re: Windows 10 upgrades are good (Score:2, Funny)
Tired of Microsoft forcing unwanted changes on your OS? Use Linux where a small clique of Redhat engineers will do it instead!
Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable (Score:4, Insightful)
- Back up your data files
- Wipe that abusive shit operating system off your machine
- Install Linux.
Don't look back.
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There are a *lot* of people who would lose important software in that move. Be mindful of that if you're going to be opportunistic.
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Surely systemd will soon have that missing functionality, then all will be well again.
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Surely systemd will soon have that missing functionality, then all will be well again.
blah, blah, blah. If you hate systemd, then who the hell is forcing you to use it on Linux? There are distros without it. More fun to be a troll though, eh?
Do you even Linux?
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- Back up your data files - Wipe that abusive shit operating system off your machine - Install Linux.
Don't look back.
I have had more clients ask about Linux in the past 3 months then in the past three years prior. With everything moving to the cloud, it is actually happening.
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I think we may have different customers. I have several that have partially switched.
I have many that have. Windows 8 started the exodus.
Linux haters are a little like Electric car deniers. Spouting problems from 1995 as if they are happening today, while the inevitable is happening.
And if we are going to spout ancient issues, I want to talk about the piece of crap that is Windows 1.
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- Back up your data files
- Wipe that abusive shit operating system off your machine
- Install Linux.
Don't look back.
Fantasy land...
You now can then stare at the computer and realize that none of the applications and tools use you are on your now almost completely useless workstation....
Your solution is simplistic and really not very realistic for most people even those with good technical knowlege.
A workstation is more than the OS that is loaded on it. Just replace Windows with Linux and you have a box that pretty much doesn't do anything, Just like if you loaded Windows on a new workstation.
It is the applications that
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I'd be that you can do more on a Linux box with a fresh install of the latest versions of Ubuntu, Mint, or Fedora than you can on a Windows box with a fresh install of Windows.
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On the other hand, A lot of people don't use anything that isn't replaced with something already available as part of the distro. They would be well advised to switch.
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Until this situation improves, if it ever does, we still need to have a Windows boot option.
As long as you use the Windows boot option, it will not improve. I have Steam on Linux, and a backlog of games to play that I bought on sale. (Note that borderlands 2 and then borderland the Pre Sequel back to back really is too much...) I will no longer spend money on games that will not run on my computer.
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Borderlands 2 gives me a headache with its shitty FOV. I can play any first-person game for hours, but that one makes me want to puke after only a few minutes.
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And what is the value to use to get a "normal" FOV? And why did the programmers mess with something that's been a default for over two decades?
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I hope there are a few more people like you that are putting your money where your mouth is so it makes my investment worthwhile. I'm ordering a new Linux development box shortly, as I don't want to mess with my primary dev machine, plus I need space to test a few distros out anyhow. It's something I've wanted to do for a while, but hadn't really committed yet.
The way you get more games on Linux, oddly enough, is to buy games that have Linux ports. At most places I've worked over my career, a non-Windows
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As for the Miscrosoft plan these days... It is called "selling down goodwill" and looks good on a balance sheet for a few years. Then it catches up and often they never re
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For the record, WD Purple is a slow ass drive, and WD Black is WORTH THE MONEY!
Any spinning drive is slow as crap these days. SSDs all the way. I only use spinning drives for backups and mass store features.
Unless you need capacity. I need a 2TB drive in my desktop between the development VMs and piles of data. And a 2TB Samgsung is $750, or almost 10 times the cost of the Black!
Agree with you on the games. Just played the Deus Ex series again with the modded upgraded graphics engine in WINE. Good Game!
Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable (Score:5, Insightful)
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> Linux does not run most games
STOP
"Some games are still not designed to run on Linux" is more correct. This includes the subset of games that both (a) don't have a native Linux version and (b) use OS calls that WINE doesn't fully support yet.
Microsoft Windows doesn't run your games. Your games jumped through hoops to run under Microsoft Windows.
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Linux does not run most games, like, say, Fallout 4. Until this situation improves, if it ever does, we still need to have a Windows boot option.
Define We. You have the decision to make. You want to play your games badly enough and own one computer? Then you are Microsoft's bitch, and don't complain you made the decision to accept whatever they feel like dionog to you. Otherwise, put together a games only system for Windows 10, and some other system for anything you want any control over.
It's that simple.
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Linux is a much better gaming OS than Windows is. The developers just have to get on board with that fact. Don't mistake "most games aren't compiled for Linux" with that somehow being Linux's fault.
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Sorry. 'nix still isn't a gaming OS.
I remember when the Windows guys used to stick their noses in the air, and Claim that the Amiga was just a gaming machine, not suited for serious work.
How the tables have turned, the only reason to keep a windows machine is rapidly becoming as a game machine.
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Clearly then the problem is grown-ass men playing video games is the problem.
Be old and be a proud game player.
I have a youtube video that has seen over 400K hits, it leaves demographics you wouldn't believe. It's a game video and the demographic that caught me eye are the ages of those that visited, there are three substantial peaks - at the ages of 36, 56, and 62. Note they take a dive at 21-30, college, a family, and life in general.
Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable (Score:5, Insightful)
Are you suggesting I should install Linux for... what?
I can't answer that question for you, but for me, the answer is "to get all my work done" as I've in fact done for 15+ years. Now, 15 years ago, it was much more of a struggle. Today, there is so much software for Linux that I seldom have to look very far. Office suite, graphics, audio processing, typesetting and desktop publishing, OCR, and on and on--- everything I need to do what I do.
I know there are specialized apps and games that don't run on Linux, and I know that Wine and even VMWare are not always good solutions. I know that some people legitimately need to run Windows, or simply want to run Windows.
But I do submit that the number of cases in which the claim is made that the job can't get done on Linux is more a function of not wanting to, rather than not being able to.
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Correct that last sentence!
"But I do submit that quite a number of cases in which the claim is made that the job can't get done on Linux is more a function of not wanting to, rather than not being able to."
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What if the software you want isn't in your distro repository? The binary compatibility issue is my #1 problem with Linux, has been for a very long time, and it's something that no Linux fan wants to address. Until that's resolved, Linux isn't going mainstream -- period.
But I do submit that the number of cases in which the claim is made that the job can't get done on Linux is more a function of not wanting to, rather than not being able to.
Power users don't understand this, but everyone else does. No matter how many times Linux people insist that a distro is perfectly usable by normal people, it's totally inevitable that you'll have to drop to a shell prompt sooner or later
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Pray tell, how exactly am I supposed to run all the software I need on a daily basis to, you know, actually make money and shit?
I made a significant amount of money using OSX - what's your point?
I'll leave the shit part to you since you use Windows. That fits perfectly.
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The thing is, the parent has a fair point.
Switching OSes is not *just* about switching OSes. You also have to deal with all the applications that you were running on the previous OS. Some packages have equivalents. Most don't.
If you've already made a significant software investment on the old platform, switching can be very difficult depending on time, costs, or just plain inclination.
Sometimes you can use a stopgap solution such as running the previous OS in a VM, but it's rarely as easy as just switchi
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Luckily 100% of your programs have nearly exact duplicates available, that most likely work even better than their windows counterparts, and are easy to find an install with your Linux package manager.
There's only one way to fix Microsoft (Score:5, Insightful)
It boggles my mind how people rightly complain about this and all the other abuses by Microsoft, then go right out and buy another PC with Windows.Self-inflicted much?
Jeez people just vote with your wallet already.
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Let me know when a Chromebook can actually run software. No, browsing the web, sending mail or writing a letter doesn't count.
http://dailygenius.com/office-... [dailygenius.com]
As everything goes to the cloud, local systems have less importance.
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It boggles my mind how people rightly complain about this and all the other abuses by Microsoft, then go right out and buy another PC with Windows.Self-inflicted much?
Jeez people just vote with your wallet already.
People DID vote with their wallet. That's why they're running a (cheap) Windows PC.
Wake up.
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YOU wake up.
Windows costs money.
Linux is free.
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YOU wake up. Windows costs money. Linux is free.
Oh, so cost is what is really holding the Year of the Linux Desktop?
Yes, that must be it, because this is the first year Linux has been free, right?
Give me a break. Unfortunately, now Microsoft is going to try and compete with that price tag, and even with all of the complaining about telemetry, I'm willing to bet the masses STILL won't convert to Linux.
And my original comment was targeted towards the actual competition out there, which is the (considerably more expensive) OSX option.
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I'm not even sure I know what this mythical "Year of the Linux Desktop" is even meant to be so I'm probably not the best person to ask about it. I can only speak from my own actual experience that I've been using Linux as my desktop just fine for years now, and I have found I am far more productive with Linux as a desktop than Windows.YMMV I guess.
Sorry but I can't respond to the rest of your rant because its not clear to me what point you are even trying to make.
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Yup - but for those of us who *have* made the total switch, is dependent on what we use our desktops for.
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While true, this *does* fall squarely within the purpose of the EFF. But perhaps the people asking for this should join, so they can ask as members rather than just as outraged victims.
The thing is, while this is clearly within the area that the EFF was formed to address, almost none of their membership is strongly affected. And they don't have enough clout to address every abuse, so it's reasonable that they should pay most attention to those issues that most directly affect their members. And this is a
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It boggles my mind how people rightly complain about this and all the other abuses by Microsoft, then go right out and buy another PC with Windows.Self-inflicted much?
Jeez people just vote with your wallet already.
I also complain every day about being stuck in traffic and about the cost of petrol. But there's few other ways to get to work so I take my complaining arse to the petrol station, part with another 80EUR and then potter along the highway at 20km/h.
Not because I like the self inflicted pain, but because it's one of the few choices available.
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Gee, it's almost as if their frustration is from not having adequate alternatives.
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I've been doing just fine for years with Linux as my Desktop.
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How about you get a taller computer tower so you can have Linux on the floor?
What is the EFF supposed to investigate? (Score:5, Informative)
The petition asks for the EFF to "investigate Microsoft". What investigatory powers does the EFF have? They can't just show up in Redmond and go "hey assholes, open up" - so did the petition's author mean the FTC instead or something?
Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate? (Score:5, Insightful)
The EFF does not have investigative powers, but it does have investigative talent, and a recognized history of advocacy for consumers.
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I think it's just an odd choice of phraseology on behalf of the petition creator. EFF has filed a number of lawsuits against companies that do harm to consumers, so that's probably the goal here. Count me in.
Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate? (Score:5, Insightful)
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This is the Internet equivalent of asking your big brother to fight your fights for you. The EFF has no authority, no power, and no ability to compel Microsoft to do anything, other than possibly laying the groundwork for someone else to initiate a class action lawsuit regarding this behavior.
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They can't just show up in Redmond and go "hey assholes, open up"
Well, that strategy did seem to work with Goatse.
Not that the Internet needs any more of that.
Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate? (Score:4, Insightful)
What exactly would they even charge them with.
"Hey assholes, stop updating and maintaining your flagship product!"
This would set a really really bad precedent if they somehow did find Microsoft Legally guilty of something. What would that something be? Illegally updating code without consent? Downloading a bit without explicit consent?
Issue a security patch, have it install automatically: lawsuit.
Replace certificate in keychain: lawsuit.
Cache website before it's clicked on: lawsuit.
Download email automatically using default settings: lawsuit.
It's also incredibly ironic that Google is criticized for failing to keep the OS up to date on most devices causing fragmentation and Microsoft is criticized for failing to allow their OS to become fragmented. I'm sure most people with an Android device wished they had the problem "Google keeps ensuring every device gets the latest version of Android."
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They don't have any official investigatory powers, but what they do have is a level of organizational competency and probably some level of lobbying influence (like, they can actually get a meeting with a congressional aide who isn't a summer intern).
They also might have the time and staff to setup some kind of coherent and competent testing to build an understanding of the when and hows of Windows 10 auto upgrading.
Right now my sense is we have a chorus of people complaining about a lot of contradictory be
Wrong priorities (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, Microsoft is being too aggressive, however I feel this is less important than finding out what is being sent via the telemetry service. I will not use Windows 10 because many of the projects I work on are under NDA. How do I know Windows isn't sending out info to the mothership that, in essence, violates that NDA? What if Windows is sending a list of all the folders on my hard-drive? An employee of theirs might see that and go "Hey, this guy is working on the Nintendo NX*! I'm going to post this to the rumors sites!" That's the sort of thing that could get me, my colleagues, and the companies I work for in trouble.
* I am not working on anything Nintendo related, I just plucked that example out of the air.
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There is also the fact that we don't know how well the data is secured. Unlike a cloud provider, if Cortana or a search process sends data to the mother ship about something sensitive, MS may not use it, but there is always the concern that they get compromised and someone now has that info about the new NX, with the exact SoC chip masks and other confidential items.
There is also the fact that MS may be coerced to forking that info over. For example, if something got uploaded to MS in the US, and Elbonia
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An anonymous coward makes an assertion that says lots of other posters were wrong, stupid, or incompetent. Should I believe him?
OK, you are actually Anonymous Coward #52254331, but this doesn't provide me a feeling of certainty in your integrity. I do understand why you might not want to admit who you work for, however. (Several reasons.)
Re:Wrong priorities (Score:5, Interesting)
I believe it doesn't send *memory dumps*. It sends crash dumps, also called "mini-dumps" within Visual Studio. They don't have the heap. They include registers. They include callstacks, but I think these only include address pointers not the stackframes themselves (not sure). They include a list of all loaded DLLs/EXEs in the process along with the address at which they're loaded.
(I work at Microsoft, and have had to investigate the occasional crash-dum- to fix whatever bug caused it, and the dumps didn't have any heap, so it's always taken a lot of guesswork and detective work to figure out what the bug was based only on the callstack).
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When I asked my doctor about that, he said it was ok with the HIPAA because the feds had certified it as compliant.
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I mean, they weren't totally opt-in in 2013, and that was before Windows 10.
http://community.websense.com/... [websense.com]
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It does explain your seemingly crazy post.
YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition) (Score:5, Insightful)
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Real change happens in the courts,
That's cute, especially given Microsoft's history in the courts, especially on the losing side.
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Re: YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition) (Score:2)
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The EFF has lawyers for a reason.
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I think it would be interesting... (Score:2)
Forced upgrade (Score:3)
It happened last night. Right at the start of my son's LAN party. One kid was on my personal desktop, just got in Overwatch & they called me downstairs. "Preparing to install Windows 10. Do not turn off your computer". Fuck that, one kid without a computer for the evening was unacceptable. I immediately hit the reset button. Luckily it booted right into Windows 7 where, for better or worse, I downloaded & ran Never10.
Linux is not an option for me. The software I run for work no longer has a version for Linux. I am stuck with MS for now & likely will be installing Win10 in the next few weeks anyhow.
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> Linux is not an option for me. The software I run for work no longer has a version for Linux.
This is the kind of lock-in that is just so hard to fight. Most of the visible fight is on the side of games, because gamers are ultimately trendsetters in hardware and software, and are numerous, but all the myriad productivity business applications that are coded to only run on Windows is this death-grip on the software industry. If you absolutely had to, you might be able to VM it, or find a way to run it
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Last grasp (Score:2)
Microsoft must be truly desperate to risk this much bad publicity and user alienation. I guess they got p0wned on mobile and MacBooks/Chromebooks, coupled with various cloud software, cast the need of anyone to own a Windows PC into doubt.
So they must have decided that they HAVE to defragment their install base and edge into mobile through tablets - or die. If you are a committed Windows user, you should probably hope that they succeed. Otherwise you will be left, at best, with poorly maintained platform ru
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While I agree that MS must be getting desperate I have to disagree about the "user alienation".
Most users are already OWNED outright by MS, they don't know about the alternatives, or don't care enough to switch because they only play solitaire, or don't want to switch at home because they have to use it at work, and it would just be too hard to learn how to use a different OS, whaaaa!!!!!!
Lets face it; other than users who read /. and the other tech forums most people don't have a clue. They just use what
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> any bad publicity is still cheaper than having to support 7 for the next 20 years
Maybe they could release a sequel to Windows 7 and charge for it. Windows 7 2? I don't know what you would call it....
Sigh. (Score:2)
Vote with feet.
Problem solved.
Hmm... (Score:2)
... people are being tricked or forced into upgrading to Windows 10 ...
Judges recently ruled [slashdot.org] raped women can sue an enabling web site. Can we get this extended to cover what Microsoft is doing to our PCs? In this case they're both the aggressor *and* enabling web site.
No means No Microsoft.
Does Windows10 == systemd? Redhat == MS? (Score:2)
Seems like the same idea. Most users hate it, but it is being maliciously forced on users for the sake of the vendors.
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No. Many users hate systemd, but most users don't even notice it.
That said, it is the same kind of change in a much more restrained way.
Is Windows 10 Pro "better", WRT control? (Score:2)
Does Windows 10 Pro have more settings to control things?
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microsoft's response: (Score:2)
"the upgrade window is part of the operating system"
Arguably illegal in Canada (Score:3)
http://www.advocatedaily.com/aaron-edgar-microsoft-risks-running-afoul-of-anti-spam-legislation.html
To summarize, the company needs informed consent. A customer's saying "no" is a binding denial of consent.
Ok everyone! (Score:2)
Here is what you can do for now. Run Win7. It is a perfectly fine OS. Yes MS has packported the spyware, aka "telemetry", to the system and how do you fix that? You manually monitor your system(s) for what updates are on them. Use this script: wmic qfe get >C:\updates.txt
Run that batch file as admin and then search for KB3035583 (the Win10 installer) and KB3021917 (spyware) and if they are there remove them.
Is this annoying and bad? Yes. Is it doable on a large scale where you have to admin hundr
Re:Lets be real now, what did MS do wrong? (Score:4, Interesting)
You should have stayed on for the second year of law school. They would have told you that a contract cannot be automatically upgraded unless reasonable and the reasonable opportunity given to back out or otherwise not agree to the terms, that all contracts have to be reasonable anyway, that contracts are meetings of minds, and that unfair contracts will be interpreted in favour of the party that didn't draw them up (i.e. the user).
A EULA is also not specifically a contract, though it may form part of one, but a grant of licence to use a copyrighted work. If the terms to use that copyrighted work include, say, automatic control over your computer, upgrades, telemetry, etc. then it could easily be interpreted as overbearing for a copyright licence. It's also certainly not an automatically binding contract, and is override by basic statutory rights and contract law. Just because you agree to "give your firstborn" does not mean that's legal - even if you WANT to do that! And changing the goalposts later never goes down well in court.
And I agreed the Windows 7 EULA, not the Windows 10 one. What if I disagree with the Windows 10 one? Are they trying to trick me into agreeing by other methods (i.e. automatically upgrading me?), giving me no reasonable option, etc.? That's basically duress.
Personally, I think MS are on a hiding to nothing, and they'll "get away" with it for the most part. And then when Windows 10 becomes "pay only", and Windows 11 is treated the same way, they'll be a comeback that everyone else will have seen coming.
All its shown me is that MS hasn't changed one bit in its existence and all the posturing of recent years is just a trap to force you to upgrade. I certainly shan't be buying MS licences for my own use and, by extension, I avoid and recommend against their cloud services, office products, browsers, and even their consoles, phones, tablets and software services (though, let's be honest, you hardly need to avoid that shite).
Chromebooks are going down well with everyone asking me about "cheap laptops". Office compatibility for home use is barely an issue any more. Cloud services have plenty of alternatives. Most people have seen iPads and Macs and understand "they aren't Windows" and it doesn't stop people nowadays. I get just as many Apple Pages job applications as Microsoft Word (and when its for a techy position, I file those in the Deleted Items folder appropriately).
Here's hoping it's just a swansong for Microsoft, but if we can screw them to the floor with an EU parliament investigation or similar, maybe we can completely remove their influence more quickly.
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You think that Microsoft has not got its legal ducks in a row? I seriously doubt that. It's possible that either the Windows 7 EULA includes sufficient terms for Microsoft to do the upgrade, or, somewhere along the line of updates from Microsoft, hidde
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> And I agreed the Windows 7 EULA, not the Windows 10 one. What if I disagree with the Windows 10 one?
Then it tries to back out all the million changes it just made and put you back on 7, lol.
> Are they trying to trick me into agreeing by other methods (i.e. automatically upgrading me?), giving me no reasonable option, etc.?
I think that's the track you'd have to walk down, but I'm pretty sure they have thought of it and have a pretty high confidence that they could defend it. The fact that Windows 10
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It's under section 7, Internet-Based Services. The line for Windows Update says "To enable the proper functioning of the Windows Update service in software (if you use it), updates or downloads to the Windows Update service will be required from time to time..."- it also mentions that they will be downloaded without further notice to you. The second part isn't important, but the first part is- it means that Windows Update can essentially become any manner of beast that they want, *should you choose to use
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No, you own Windows 7. You also have a license to operate Windows 7. They cannot change this contract at any time. The WoW example is a really bad one, because with WoW you only own the client, and you must agree to their latest EULA in order to connect to their server- but you are free to continue running the WoW 1.0 client that you own for as long as you like. There's just nothing to connect it to.
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> I am forced to upgrade my Mac and iPhone all the time.
Like you can fucking turn that off you know. All of it. Do you even settings bro?
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You actually cannot disable them on iOS 9 and newer.
That's the reason i still keep my parents and in-laws iPads still on iOS 8.
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Settings > iTunes & App Stores, disable "Updates" under "Automatic Downloads".
If you already automatically downloaded one and it is nagging you, go delete it under "Storage".
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Actually, I think that malicious does plausibly describe the reported actions of Microsoft. Now whether they actually performed those actions I can't say, since I haven't used anything from them since around 2000.
While I agree that they probably didn't do it with the intent to harm, there is reasonable evidence that they acted with reckless disregard of the fact which they knew or had reason to know, would harm their customers.
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Different people have different reasons for not wanting to upgrade, and some wouldn't object if it weren't being forced at an inconvenient time.
FWIW, my wife always wants to postpone upgrades as long as possible. I doubt that she's alone. She just doesn't like having to learn new icons, new control positions, etc. And I don't find her objections unreasonable even though the changes are rarely so stupid as to flummox me for very long. (P.S.: She's on Kubuntu.)
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Whether that works depends on what you're doing. Some specialized software is only available for certain operating systems. What makes this really nice is that some of it may work well on some version of MSWind, but not work at all on MSWind10.