Silicon Valley Investors Call For California To Secede From the US After Trump Win (theguardian.com) 1368
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Guardian: As Donald Trump's shock election victory reverberated around Silicon Valley late on Tuesday night, some high-profile technologists were already calling for California to secede from the United States. The broader west coast is a stronghold for the Democrats, and significantly more politically progressive and racially diverse than large swathes of central U.S. California is also the biggest economy in the U.S. and the sixth largest in the world with a gross state product of $2.496 trillion for 2015, according to the IMF. The campaign for independence -- variously dubbed Calexit, Califrexit and Caleavefornia -- has been regarded as a fringe movement. But support was revitalized by influential Uber investor and Hyperloop co-founder Shervin Pishevar, in a series of tweets announcing his plans to fund a "legitimate campaign for California to become its own nation" -- posted even before the full results were in. A few hours later, Hillary Clinton conceded the election to Trump, and Pishevar told CNBC that he was serious about Calexit. "It's the most patriotic thing I can do," he said, adding that the resulting nation would be called New California. "We can re-enter the union after California becomes a nation. As the sixth largest economy in the world, the economic engine of the nation and provider of a large percentage of the federal budget, California carries a lot of weight," he said. Pishevar was supported by others in Silicon Valley. Angel investor Jason Calacanis said that California succession would be simple in the wake of both Brexit and a Trump win. Evan Low, a Democrat serving in the California state assembly, said that he'd support the introduction of a bill to start the independence process. The proposal illustrates the technology industry's frustration with Trump over his repeated criticisms of Silicon Valley companies. Trump has said in the past that he would make Apple build computers in the U.S. He also thinks Amazon CEO "Jeff Bezos bought the Washington Post to exert political power and avoid paying taxes, and claimed that Mark Zuckerberg's push for specialist immigration would actually decrease opportunities for American women and minorities." In July, 145 technology leaders wrote in an open letter about how "Trump would be a disaster for innovation."
this is (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a little dramatic.
Re:this is (Score:5, Insightful)
Reminds me of a 3 year old throwing a tantrum because they didn't get a toy they wanted in Walmart.
Re:this is (Score:5, Insightful)
Pretty similar. Also similar to tantrums thrown by the other side 4 and 8 years ago and again 12 years ago on the dem side. There be drama queens everywhere. My favorite was probably anti-Obamacare threats to move to Canada. Someone didn't think that one through.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
My favorite was probably anti-Obamacare threats to move to Canada. Someone didn't think that one through.
If a push comes to a shove, I would move to Australia. The Aussie women are so hot.
Re: (Score:3)
Talk is cheap.
They likely won't take you though. Not as tough as Canada to get into but still no cakewalk. They control their borders and criticize others who want to do the same.
Re:this is (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:this is (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot of people criticise Australia for having an inhumane immigration policy.
Like many countries, they are unable to deal with the problem at source for political reasons, and unwilling to deal with it domestically for political reasons, so end up doing something awful instead.
Re:this is (Score:5, Interesting)
Sorry to burst your bubble but our right wing government headed by Turnbull isn't that much of an improvement on Trump, with lefties threatening to move to Trudeau-land.
I would have thought Chile would be natural choice for Californians - Spanish speaking, a long Pacific coastline, centre-left government with a woman president and even earthquakes. And no need to build a wall, there's a mountain range. (just kidding, Argentina!)
Re:this is (Score:5, Informative)
Re:this is (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.politifact.com/trut... [politifact.com]
"After going through all of his comments from this past weekend, it seems that Trump definitely wants a database of Syrian refugees, and he hasn’t ruled out the possibility of a database for all Muslims -- though he isn’t actively calling for the latter. And we’ll warn you now that many of Trump’s comments strike us as contradictory or confusing."
The last line pretty much sums up Trump's "stances" - contradictory or confusing.
NYC protest is pretty big (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow.
The protest in NYC [twimg.com] is pretty big.
Regarding California, after it seceeds, where will they get water?
Teargas being used in Oakland (Score:5, Insightful)
And reports of teargas being used on protesters in Oakland!
It's going to be a long night.
(After weeks of being told to accept the election outcome, anything else is an attack on democracy. Sheesh!)
Re:NYC protest is pretty big (Score:4, Informative)
Um, California doesnt really get water from outside the state to any great degree. It's the California part of the Rockies that provides the snow pack that feeds the water needs of Southern California and the Valley. The rest of the state makes due with its own reservoirs.
Re:NYC protest is pretty big (Score:4, Insightful)
Um, California doesnt really get water from outside the state to any great degree. It's the California part of the Rockies that provides the snow pack that feeds the water needs of Southern California and the Valley. The rest of the state makes due with its own reservoirs.
I think you need a geography lesson. As far as the maps I'm aware of, no part of the Rockies where the Colorado river originates are within the borders of California.
AFAIK, In Northern California most of the water comes from Sierra Nevada range. In the central valley, about 1/2 comes from the Sierra Nevada and another 1/2 from underground aquifers. Unfortunately for Southern California, most of their water comes from the Colorado River.
I used to live in CO, and the issues surrounding the Colorado River Pact of 1922 continues to be a *major* political issue in Colorado. Over the last 50 years, California has been using more that its allocated portion of water (which is allowed by the pact when there is a surplus), but California has also been using its influence in congress to block other states from creating reservoirs to capture surplus for drought years. Sometimes in drought years can get pretty acrimonious, and agriculture concerns in Colorado call out California for conspiring to steal water by blocking reservoir projects.
If CA were to secede, I'm sure northern CA would be fine, but I suspect southern CA would need to get major concessions to get the "bonus" water they have been relying on from the Colorado river basin.
Re:NYC protest is pretty big (Score:5, Informative)
You're being manipulated (Score:5, Interesting)
If you supported Trump kindly go fuck yourself, and I'll take the moderation results of this post. If not then I apologize to you, but not the man who decided to run a campaign based on sowing as much hatred as absolutely possible.
This is what happens when you run that kind of campaign.
We didn't protest when Barack Obama was elected. Twice.
Here's some observations about the protests:
You're being manipulated.
Re:Maybe (Score:5, Funny)
Printed signs in the span of a day? You're right, that's some sci-fi stuff right there! There's no way 21st technology could make a printed sign in less than a weak!
Re:You're being manipulated (Score:5, Interesting)
I guess none of the moderators clicked on your 3 links because none of them are even remotely equivalent to what is happening right now. A verbal protest at a college and chair hanging in a tree? Really, you see that as the same as what is happening now? Link some video news stories from 2008 or 2012 of the mainstream media pushing for a riot like I'm seeing tonight on ABC, etc. The MSM meltdown live on election night should be evidence enough that we are being manipulated by their propaganda.
Of course the mainstream media wasn't pushing for a riot because the mainstream, which happens to be the majority of people by definition, didn't want to riot. Their candidate won in 2012. There still were [youtube.com] riots though, and with the feet dragging and the refusal to evaluate a nomination for justice, the statement "Republicans accepted Obama" is highly misleading to say the least.
Secondly, as a question of curiosity, who do you consider to be the mainstream media, exactly? There's no malice here, I'm genuinely curious what the Trump supporter's side is. If you don't read mainstream media, then why would you feel like you're being manipulated? And if I evaluate both sides, and then side with the mainstream media, does that also make me manipulated?
Typical (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll be these same people pointed and laughed when Texans said the same thing.
Re: Typical (Score:5, Insightful)
It's different when libtards do it. They're the right people doing it for the right reasons, racist!
Re: (Score:3)
I wonder how California would feel after it's secession when we cut their fucking water off. That State drains water from all their neighbors. Good luck growing almonds.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I wonder how California would feel after it's secession when we cut their fucking water off. That State drains water from all their neighbors. Good luck growing almonds.
You're aware that California grows 2/3 of the US crops? California water needs would drastically shrink if we didn't have to feed the rest of the world.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
2/3 of some crops. Nowhere close to 2/3 of the total dollar value.
Re: Typical (Score:5, Informative)
You're aware that California grows 2/3 of the US crops?
You must mean 2/3 of the crop species. California only produces about 11% of the food grown in the US (by value) and has more than 12% of the population. Iowa has less than a tenth as many people and produces more than 2/3 the crop value that Cali does. 'You', or rather the state you're in, produce a variety of fruits and veggies. But the grain and grain-fed meat that make up the bulk of what people in the US eat comes from the Midwest.
Re: Typical (Score:4, Funny)
I wonder how California would feel after it's secession when we cut their fucking water off. That State drains water from all their neighbors. Good luck growing almonds.
You're aware that California grows 2/3 of the US crops? California water needs would drastically shrink if we didn't have to feed the rest of the world.
'The rest of the world'?
That would be 'world' as in 'world series'.
Re: Typical (Score:4, Funny)
I wonder how California would feel after it's secession when we cut their fucking water off. That State drains water from all their neighbors. Good luck growing almonds.
Speaking as one of those neighboring states, we expect to go along with them for the ride and we've got lots of water.
Re:Typical (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll be these same people pointed and laughed when Texans said the same thing.
Actually, most of them were in favor of Texas seceding.
Re:Typical (Score:4, Insightful)
Really, I think it was a mistake to stop the south from leaving in the first place. Sure, the bar should be set pretty high... like a 3/4ths or so supermajority vote with multiple affirmative referenda over a few years... to prevent secession at a whim. But it's pretty damn hypocritical to revere the text of the Declaration of Independence so and to go on with statements about the rights of self-determination in the rest of the world; but to deny the people of California or Texas or whatever other state to go their own way when the citizens decide that Washington DC isn't working for them.
Re:Are you joking? (Score:4, Insightful)
Have you seen the California budget lately? No, CA does not give more than it receives. The state is in massive debt, has massive regulations, and businesses can't seem to leave the state fast enough.
Oddly enough, Liberal Jerry Brown changed things a bit http://www.economist.com/news/... [economist.com]
So anyhow, now that your ideology is in complete control, it's going to sound pretty funny when you still try to blame them damn libtards for every problem. Let em go or kick them out.
I fully supported Texas seceding, as I do California.
Re:Are you joking? (Score:4, Interesting)
um, maybe you should read the article you linked to? He adopted Conservative ideals (fiscal responsibility, for one) to fix some of the problems.
The problem such as it is, is that those who call themselves conservatives these days do not practice fiscal responsibility. You are talking to a Goldwater conservative, who understands the difference between old school conservative principles and the state of the party now.
How ironic, when Jerry Brown is a better conservative than the people who call him a liberal.
Re:Are you joking? (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, California still sends more tax money to the Federal government than it gets back in benefits.
By government-dependency rankings, it is near the bottom. 2016 numbers:
https://wallethub.com/edu/stat... [wallethub.com]
Re:One more thing (Score:5, Funny)
Silicon Valley can just threaten to cut off the US's Netflix, and the whole thing will be over without a shot being fired.
Re: (Score:3)
Texas has never wanted to secede. Just some kooks who live there.
Re:Typical (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Typical (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Typical (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Typical (Score:5, Insightful)
Plus it is exactly the wrong answer. I didn't vote for him. I never dreamed he'd actually get elected. But, I really do hope he shakes things up a bit. Like continuing to point out that representatives rarely actually represent their constituents. I know this is by no means a sure thing. But, if people would work to mold the change in a helpful direction instead of just assuming all change will be bad and therefore dig in or retreat something good might result.
We have to get out of this 'rah rah my team' mentality and start looking for ways to influence the process in a positive way. We have to hope he greatly exceeds our expectations. And we have to make sure we don't poison the political atmosphere so it is impossible for him to do so.
Considering that we have been stuck in a political quagmire for years, it is time for some change. I wish the voters had picked a different agent for change. There is a lot to not like about Trump. But they are absolutely correct that change is needed.
Re:Typical (Score:5, Funny)
>I wish the voters had picked a different agent for change.
Obviously they picked Agent Orange.
--
BMO
Re:Typical (Score:5, Funny)
You do not have better barbecue than Houston. Maybe the new city-state of Houston can work out some trade agreement with the Republic of California where we send you some real barbecue and you send us your porn. We have a port, it can all go through the Panama Canal without having to risk the Arizona wasteland.
Trump calling someone else for not paying taxes? (Score:3)
It has to suck (Score:5, Insightful)
It has to suck after you make all these of those "donations" and get nothing back in return.
Progressives (Score:4, Insightful)
They are doing everything, EVERY. GOD. DAMNED. thing they said would be unacceptable for Trump supporters to do if Hillary won.
They have NO self awareness, NONE.
Re:Progressives (Score:4, Interesting)
A handful of Silicon Valley elites = action by all progressives?
Good work! I would say that by applying incredibly broad generalities to a large group of people based on the actions of a handful you are definitely part of some sort of solution rather than part of the problem.
You? Part of the problem!? With mass generalities based on the actions of an incredible few like that, that would be absurd! Why would anyone mark you flamebait?
One itsy-bitsy flaw in this plan (Score:5, Funny)
If California becomes a country, presumably one with an open southern border and an H-1B peonage system of its own, it would have to implement some form of defense department. Would it have electric dirigible aircraft, wind-powered missiles and a Department Of Hugging It Out?
Re:One itsy-bitsy flaw in this plan (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure it does, but those bases belong to that country called USA. I have a feeling that the enlisted would be required to move.
Re:One itsy-bitsy flaw in this plan (Score:5, Insightful)
Then you should of voted for Bernie. (Score:5, Insightful)
You pushed for Clinton, even though Sanders was a better candidate. What did you expect?
Re:Then you should of voted for Bernie. (Score:4)
You pushed for Clinton, even though Sanders was a better candidate. What did you expect?
I did vote for Sanders in Michigan, because I wanted to see Clinton lose. I was very glad to see her lose again. That's the good news. The bad news is Trump won, but I have been getting a lot of schadenfreude from the leftists' meltdown.
They are worried about cheap H1B's vanishing (Score:5, Insightful)
Fuck you, you hypocrits (Score:4, Insightful)
As much as I despise Donald Trump, seeing these haughty Progressives eat a buffet of crows warms the cockles of my heart.
For the last 90 years, the Ivy League-armed technocrats of the Progressive apparatus have waged a relentless war against state sovereignty in their march to greater political and economic consolidation in D.C. and NYC. Only the "leadership" from the PhDs in D.C. matter, plebs. We'll control your healthcare, collude with the media to control the agenda, concentrate more power in the unelected bureaucracy that grows like a weed in Northern Virginia, and then call anyone who supports states' rights (aka federalism aka competitive sovereignty) a racist or neo-Confederate.
Fuck you. You made this bed. Now lie in it. Enjoy Trump turning the gun of the federal leviathan you created right in your face. Applauding for Obama's "I'm going it alone" screed when the Democrats lost Congress doesn't seem like a wise precedent now does it? But let's be honest: you only like democracy when it goes your way, otherwise you pout.
By the way, these same Silicon Valley assholes and California Democrats have made fun of Northern California's "State of Jefferson" secession movement for decades.
Seeing the Obama elitists go down in flames in Congress and the executive puts a big ol' smile on my face. The next blow against these Silicon Valley fucks will be the bursting of the zero percent interest rate bubble blown by the Fed (another wonderful gift from the Progressives), which will wipe out the GAAP non-profitable bullshit "app" companies in the Valley. (This is probably why they hate Trump, though: he's mentioned that we're in a bubble and it's the Fed's fault.)
Truthfully, though, the Democratic party and the country would be better off if they did leave. As long as the Dems in the Bay Area foist Pelosi, Boxer, and Harris on the rest of the republic, the party will be repugnant to most of the Rust Belt and places like New Hampshire, where citizens still value freedom and being left the fuck alone.
Well now (Score:5, Funny)
... some high-profile technologists were already calling for California to secede from the United States.
It's nice to see they've remained well-rooted in reality.
What could they possibly be thinking? (Score:3)
The US Civil War was fought to decide this issue. States cannot secede from the US. Investors aren't stupid, so what are they trying to show? That they think we must be? That they'll throw money at anything drawing attention to their displeasure with the president-elect?
That making a hyperbolic proposition as an opening is just part of the art of the deal?
Re: (Score:3)
Of course, congress would never approve such a separation because, as the summary points out, California provides an awful lot of the nation's GDP. It would be a serious economic hit, in addition to all of the other issues that would raise.
someone born in iran rpoves trumps point? (Score:5, Interesting)
Don't think it'll happen (Score:5, Insightful)
Anything posted in the immediate aftermath of the election is part of coping, so I take this sort of thing with a great heaping helping of salt. The right wing did it when Obama was elected, after all, and outside some squawking about birth certificates nothing came of it.
Whether or not it sputters out in this case depends on what happens in the first three to six months after Trump takes office. If he ends up more moderate than he was on the campaign trail, then things will almost certainly continue on as usual (so to speak). We'll probably see some regressive tax policy changes and erosion of various minority and women's rights, but nothing too catastrophic. The poor will get poorer, the rich will get richer, and the environment will continue to get worse at the same rate it is today.
Alone, those things aren't enough to spur serious action.
If, however, he manages to convince the Senate and Congress to go along with some of his wackier campaign promises, then there's a very real chance things could get serious quickly.
- If he trashes too many social support nets, then all bets are off. If you and your family are starving, you'll do pretty much anything to get food, and if it happens in bulk you have the spark of revolution on your hands. Throw a heavy-handed response to rioting and you have martyrs and a circle of escalating violence.
- If he makes enough blatantly discriminatory changes and gets them through a stacked Supreme Court, he could provoke enough ire to prompt serious nonviolent secession talk. If, for example, he bans all Muslims or Mexicans from entering the country, and his ban survives a supreme court challenge, California will look long and hard at the idea of leaving because there's a large enough majority of people that don't agree with that kind of action here to support that.
If all he does is chip away at the progress made in the last ten or twenty years, he'll be fine. If he starts taking a pickaxe to things that have been part of America for the last sixty or seventy, all bets are off.
Boo Hoo (Score:5, Insightful)
*RANT ON*
Its getting tiring, this shrill end of the world, he/she said something bad so I have to cry now nonsense. I could say something coherent about words not hurting but i'm ranting so another time.
And then, when I read an article like this all I can think about is 'them'(and if I wasn't ranting I would say all people who dont get their way, not just 1 side or another), saying 'BOO HOO, we didn't get our way so now we are going to kick down the sand castle and take all our toys'.
Sound like a bunch of smug self righteous children, grow up.
200+ years of history and not everyone got their way every time, sometimes you have to play the long game and put in the real work.
*RANT OFF*
That felt good, thanks for listening.
Here's an idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Just give California back to the Mexicans.
Thin-skinned, can't stand to lose even once (Score:5, Interesting)
I can't believe what gigantic babies they are. What, did they expect that for the rest of their natural lives, that they would win every single election, ever? Apparently so.
And now, that their side lost, instead of moving forward, they are bawling like infants and want to quit. We saw this with Brexit as well. Highly educated people, professionals, and they just pitched a shit-fit because they lost. I couldn't believe the rage that Ph.D's were capable of. But they sure can lecture everyone else about how we have to accept it when things go their way.
Democracy is awesome.
Re:Thin-skinned, can't stand to lose even once (Score:5, Informative)
I think it has a lot less to do with losing - the left has lost before, after all - but with who it lost to and what that person has indicated he wants to do to the nation.
Both sides have to deal with losing and the pain of seeing one's own view of what the nation should be ignored or overruled. That's part and parcel of politics, and has been for... well, as long as there have been opposing views. I see a lot of people worried that the changes Trump wants to implement will result in their direct loss of life and liberty.
If, for example, Trump follows through with his promise to deport all illegal residents, the fourteen year old sister of a friend of mine will lose her mother. She doesn't have Mexican citizenship, and her mother doesn't have U.S. citizenship. If he follows through with his campaign promises to roll back LGBT rights, then some of my friends may no longer be counted as married. If he follows through with his ban on Muslims, several of my classmates that are here on scholarships may be forced to return to their countries of origin instead of applying for citizenship like they planned on doing. If he stacks the supreme court and overturns Roe vs. Wade, many women will die due to seeking unsafe and back-alley abortions. If he repeals Obamacare, I will lose health insurance, and as a type 1 diabetic that's kind of a big deal for me.
So it's not just losing, its the very real possibility of having families broken apart, futures ruined, and lived destroyed. That's why many liberals and centrists are appalled at Trump's victory.
Re:Thin-skinned, can't stand to lose even once (Score:5, Informative)
I didn't (and don't) support Trump. But presumably she's in this position because her parents entered the U.S. illegally and she was born in the U.S., thus granting her U.S. citizenship by birth? The remedy in her case is:
These things have a procedure you're supposed to follow before you're supposed to enter the country. Just because she finds herself screwed because she (or her parents) tried to cheat and violated that procedure doesn't entitle her to a sympathy waiver when others are all required to follow the same legal procedure. It's disingenuous to try to blame the system or Trump for being cruel to her situation, when her situation is entirely her parents' creation.
Nearly my entire extended family was granted green cards and eventually U.S. citizenship via the latter process. Took a few years, but this is one of the more accessible means of obtaining a green card. She's fortunate that she even has U.S. citizenship. The U.S. is one of the few countries which grants citizenship just because you happen to be born on U.S. soil [wikipedia.org]. Yes her mother will have to leave the U.S. while she waits for the visa application to be processed. No that is not the fault of the U.S., since she wasn't supposed to be in the country in the first place. Immigration is a stickler about this - even U.S. citizens who get married and apply for their spouse to get citizenship are required to have the spouse first leave the country and wait until the spouse visa application is approved.
I don't have a problem with illegal immigrants as people. One of the hardest workers I've ever met turned out to be in the country illegally. But it makes little sense to have more lenient rules for obtaining citizenship for people who entered the country illegally, than for people trying to enter the country legally and following the proper procedure. That would destroy any motivation to even try to follow the legal procedure.
Spoiled Silicon Valley Plutocrats (Score:5, Funny)
Just like Florida! (Score:3)
Florida wanted to do the same thing after the last election. Yeah, go ahead, and send Cali into an even deeper financial crisis. Property values will crash and your currency won't be worth shit. On the east coast, look at property values of the south compared to that of the north and you'll see the south is STILL paying for trying to secede from the union. Clearly Cali has been smoking weed longer than it's been legalized.
And quit your bitching. You all rallied behind Hillary waving signs that said "stronger together." Put your fucking money where your mouth is and heed the advice coming from that liberal-Jesus Obama when he says support the Donald. It is done. Likewise, Donald stood on stage and said he wants to be president for everyone - call him on it.
Grow the fuck up you damned babies. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, I get it. You don't like Trump. I don't like Trump either.
There was a lot of bluster and bitching but Texas didn't really try to secede from the Union when Obama was elected or re-elected and they dislike Obama as much as you dislike Trump.
Stop throwing a fucking tantrum and grow up.
LK
Re:Wow (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Wow (Score:4)
How about Wow, a double win! I'm all for it, as long as they take their share of the national debt with them.
At 17.8 Trillion dollars and 37 million Californians, that would only be about $54,000 per person. After they pay for that, then increase their State taxes by 32.4% to make up for what the fed adds to their general revenue, let alone others like military or border security and let them leave.
I wonder how long a country would last where guns are banned, everything causes cancer, and safe spaces become a way of life when Uncle Sam won't back them up.
The national of $17T divided by 300M Americans means that the national debt is *already* $54,000 per person, Californians (and residents of all states) *already* owe that money, so seceding from the USA wouldn't add to that burden.
Since California wouldn't need to extend its military presence overseas, military costs would be a fraction of what the USA spends now.
make up for what the fed adds to their general revenue
Why do you think the federal government pays more to California in benefits than California pays in taxes? Hint: they don't -- it's mostly the red states that receive more federal money than they pay in taxes.
when Uncle Sam won't back them up.
Uncle Sam has no choice - if an aggressor tried to occupy California, the USA would have to protect them, or that aggressor would be right at their doorstep.
Re: (Score:3)
It's pretty close to even, IIRC - I think in 2014 it was something like California getting back about 95% of what it sent in taxes.
Re:Wow (Score:5, Informative)
I was under the impression that the secession from the Union thing was settled back in the 1860's. If I recall a few million Americans died in the process.
Re:Wow (Score:5, Informative)
Or the tech companies could move to Canada. The Ottawa valley as well as the Kitchener-Waterloo has a lot of tech startups as well as established companies who are well established. Both of the areas have well respected Canadian universities resident there so the is a good talent pool. And there is the Toronto/Mississauga area which offers the same. Canada has a lot to offer, no Trump-like entities in our political spectrum (thank God) so its something to think about. We would love to have you here, to be part of our sophisticated and affluent society. Just saying :)
We the North :)
Re:Wow (Score:5, Funny)
This is California. You're Canada. Forget about the culture shock, it's the weather shock that will kill us off!
Re:Wow (Score:4, Interesting)
On the bright side with Trump in the White House nothing will be done to mitigate global warming. It's a long game, but I can assure you, moving to Canada help me to keep my sanity.
Re:Wow (Score:4, Interesting)
Back in the 90s and early 00s I used to go back and forth from Rhode Island to Toronto every weekend or every other weekend (and off to Bobcaygeon).
I was envious of the prosperity across the border. American Exceptionalism became less exceptional.
>more stringent ecological rules and laws
>higher taxes
>universal healthcare (OHIP).
>whole corridor from Windsor to Oshawa more prosperous than anything with comparable population south of the border.
Somehow it seems that there's been a bunch of lyin' by certain politicians over the decades.
--
BMO
Re:Wow (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course the whole US back then had a population less than California today.
The working-age male population in the South was worse than decimated.
It turns out that it is easier to secede from the Soviet Union than the United States. The Hotel California can never leave.
Re: (Score:3)
I believe the count was closer to 600,000.
Yes, about 600k soldiers died, but the majority of those were from disease rather than battlefield deaths, which was normal before antibiotics.
The secession question was settled in April of 1865, on the battlefield at Appomattox, when the Army of Northern Virginia failed to break out of the siege of Petersburg. Joe Johnson surrendered the Army of Tennessee a week later. And that was the end of that.
Re:Wow (Score:4, Insightful)
SV already seceded by hiding $2 Trillion dollars outside of the USA despite living off of incredible amounts of tax assistance and infrastructure.
CA wouldn't know how to survive without tax welfare.
Re:Wow (Score:5, Interesting)
" despite living off of incredible amounts of tax assistance and infrastructure."
= You have no idea of the math involved. SV has contributed many hundreds of times more than it has received in government assistance, unless you have your official GOP calculator handy with some actual facts. Compared to the GOP's pet coal/oil industry or almost anything else, SV has been wildly profitable per invested dollar. You're ridiculously uninformed, but that appears to be in fashion now, good for you!
Re: Wow (Score:5, Informative)
California is a NET CONTRIBUTOR to the federal government.
For the typical /. reader, this means Californians pay more in federal taxes than they get back from the federal government.
Somebody has to pay for the food stamps all those met addicted red state degenerates receive.
Re: Wow (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Wow (Score:4, Insightful)
You are quite wrong - look at the real numbers Californian's pay more in taxes proportionally than they receive back in benefits from the federal govt.
It's the bible belt states, Trump's big supporters, who really suck at the teat of federal government, paid for by those very people in California you deride
REF: http://www.theatlantic.com/bus... [theatlantic.com]
Re:Wow (Score:5, Informative)
California is the 8th largest economy in the world. Jesus Christ the political right is populated by some real halfwits.
Re:Wow (Score:5, Informative)
A United States Congress without the wacko democratic representatives (Pelosi) and senators (Feinstein) from California in it can only be a massive improvement for the rest of us.
Let California secede and try to pay for all of it's socialist programs and "porous borders" through it's failing tax base and deficit-ridden state budgets. How long will that last?
Pay??? You do realize that California, along with almost every other democratic stronghold, contributes huge amounts of tax money to poorer states? Californians would have significantly more money on their budget, enough that they'd be able to implement their policies and probably cut taxes at the same time. I agree though, if the west and northeast coasts succeed, we'd all get an opportunity to finally see how the two parties float their sides, and I personally wouldn't mind to see my taxes support my own state, not some farmer in Nebraska.
Re: Wow (Score:4, Interesting)
I'd like to see Nebraska cut the food off to California, and those other Western states cut off the water.
I'd like to see that, too. If we're not growing food for the whole nation, we'll need a whole lot less water. The majority of the produce eaten in the USA is produced in California. Our share of foods you eat ranges from about 50% to about 95%, if you put corn aside. Just corn mind you, not wheat or rice.
Re:Wow (Score:5, Informative)
You'd better do some research. California is one of ONLY 3 states to give more to the US federal government than it receives. Without California's MASSIVE tech and Agricultural industries the US GDP will take a double digit drop, creating an economic hit similar to the great depression and the banking crash. If California were a nation it would rank 6th in the world GDP.
https://www.google.com/#q=stat... [google.com]
https://wallethub.com/edu/stat... [wallethub.com]
http://www.motherjones.com/pol... [motherjones.com]
All that said I can't argue the wacko part, nor would the US government even begin to allow one of the states to succeed from the union. That was established a long time ago by the confederate states, Texas, and Utah.
Re:Wow (Score:5, Informative)
"California is one of ONLY 3 states to give more to the US federal government than it receives."
Not even close. https://visualeconomics.credit... [creditloan.com]
California is one of 17 states, not just 3, that gives more than it receives. California ranks 8th among those 17. It is not one of only three, it's not even in the top three.
"You'd better do some research."
So should you.
Re: calixit (Score:5, Informative)
A better plan would be to break California into multiple smaller states (say 10) based on population centers to increase the number of left leaning US Senators.
Can't do that.
New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new States shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.
Article IV, Section 3, Clause 1
Re: calixit (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm wondering then why we have West Virginia...
Re: calixit (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm wondering then why we have West Virginia...
The state of West Virginia (aka Kanawha), was formed when Virginia seceded from the union prior to the Civil war. During that time there were 2 legislatures that claimed to represent all of Virginia. The legislature that didn't support succession voted to approve to split the state and this was approved by the US Congress compliant with Article 4 of the constitution.
In the case of California, I don't think the legislators that represent the central counties in the CA state legislature, nor do I think the US Congress would approve splitting the state. This comes up in Texas all the time, and the same thing is likely the limiting factor. In any case, it seems totally unlikely that the Congressional representatives of small states would ever agree to splitting a large state to help it gain more representatives in the Senate.
Re: calixit (Score:4, Interesting)
Instead of all this, Hillary said we should (Score:5, Insightful)
This secession talk is a wee bit childish. Here's what Hillary Clinton had to say this morning about a Trump presidency:
"Donald Trump is going to be our president. We owe him an open mind and a chance to lead."
I hope her supporters take a cue from her and start behaving with some class and dignity.
Re: Instead of all this, Hillary said we should (Score:5, Insightful)
This is as dumb as when people in Texas wanted to do the same thing when Obama got elected. You Democrat and Republican sycophants at exactly the same, you just don't realize it because you are too busy drinking the koolaid. You are perfect for each other.
Re:Instead of all this, Hillary said we should (Score:4, Insightful)
Open your eyes, your mind and realize the same can be said about Hillary. She even paid people to create riots at Trump's rallies, so I'd say she deserves this sentence even more than Trump. But hey, freedom of tought...
I hadn't heard that particular claim before, so I googled it. I found this gem. http://abcnews.com.co/donald-t... [abcnews.com.co]
I really enjoyed the big part on snopes, "a website known for its biased opinions and inaccurate information they write about stories on the internet in order to generate advertising revenue", something which purported to be an interview but which the author obviously pulled out of his arse. If that is the kind of "news" site that is making the claim that Hillary was funding riots, I'll take it as evidence she did not.
Re: calixit (Score:5, Insightful)
As another poster mentioned, it's been done with West Virginia, but I think California would have much bigger shit than the law to deal with if it split off:
- Most of its essential resources come from neighboring states. Hell, Arizona alone (which Californian politicians often scoff at) provides California with 25% of its electricity. I'm curious how Silicon Valley would deal with that. Perhaps draw more power away from the more rural regions and charge them more money? Speak of which...
- Most of the landmass of California is in fact very red. They'd probably be able to take the major cities with them, but I can pretty much guarantee that the majority of the residents outside of those areas wouldn't be on board with this. But what do we need all of those rednecks for right? Well, you need farmland and farmers to eat.
This shit needs to just stop. Every god damn election there's this stupid talk about either going to Canada or seceding, and it's all a bunch of stupid bullshit, and I'm sick of it.
Besides, Shervin Pishevar is a first generation Iranian immigrant. Coming over here and then just demanding that we split up the country just because he doesn't like its politics is a real asshole move, and it's exactly this kind of asshole attitude that got an asshole like Trump elected.
Re: calixit (Score:5, Informative)
Hell, Arizona alone (which Californian politicians often scoff at) provides California with 25% of its electricity. I'm curious how Silicon Valley would deal with that.
We'd probably turn the nukes back on. San Onofre has been sitting idle for half a decade now. We'd probably invent new nuclear reactors, too; get some molten salt thorium reactors up and running. Barring that, Mr. Musk lives in Cali, so maybe we'd just get Solar Panels on every roof and batteries in every garage. Or turn to tidal, since we have all that coastline to play with.
Most of the landmass of California is in fact very red.
Most of the landmass of EVERY place is very red, because that tends to be the space without any people in it. Either farmers (as you point out) with a single family living on 100+ acres, or far far right conservatives living in the boonies of the deserts or high up in the Appalachian mountains with all the guns they can muster and the nearest neighbor 10 miles away. Liberals tends toward cities and other people, where they make things like computers, medicine, solar panels and interracial porn.
Re: calixit (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Our culture (Score:5, Insightful)
The only culture the US has is an amalgamation of the cultures of previous immigrants. Like every culture, basically, because immigration is not a phenomenon of modern times or certain places. It's a force of nature as much as tectonics.
Hell, America basically eats more Pizza than Italy, you write basically in greek letters and you count arabic numbers. Your medicine is based on latin words as is law. The primary religions in your country have their origin in Germany as does your beloved beer, wven though you perverted that ad absurdum.
Preserving culture is like trying to keep the flu virus from mutating...
Re: calixit (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
1) Restricting immigration such that it benefits American Citizens? Issue.
2) Renegotiating trade deals and implementing trade tariffs to benefit American workers? Issue.
3) Rebuilding our nation's crumbling infrastructure and putting American Citizens to work? Issue.
4) Stopping all foreign wars and provocations of major world powers like Russia? Big fucking issue unless you like getting nuked.
The list goes on... The issues don't get much bigger than this, except in fantasy land of "climate change" or "whit
Re:This is gonna be fun (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not trying to be rude or attack you but I just don't understand those claims. I honestly feel a business as usual candidate like Hillary, which admittedly is not my favorite concept, is FAR superior to some one with zero experience, a clear temperament problem, a crush on America's nation state enemies, threatens to sue anyone who questions him while threatening to loosen America's libel laws and thus reign in freedom of the press, and a tax plan that is clearly designed to enrich the wealthy while bankrupting the country.
I honestly can't think of a more objectionable candidate than Trump.
Re:Better option... (Score:5, Interesting)
That's what doesn't seem fair, not the Electoral College system itself.
That said, there is a procedure to change the system, but it involves getting 38 states to agree to start the process...
Re: (Score:3)
But also against idiots like this doing it as a wah wah against Trump becoming president.
America as a defense pact makes sense. America as a single governing entity hasn't made sense since it was still the 13 colonies, and makes even less sense today between the vehement ideological differences across different parts of the US, the corruption and graft at all levels of federal government. All the pork barrel spending and incompetent programs that have resulted, in large part due to backroom deals to 'make it happen' while driving local industry with component manufacture that should really be consolidated into the same geographical region, etc.
California or the Cascadia region splitting off into its own state(s)/country could be exactly what this country needs. Cutting off both federal aid to the western blue states, as well as cutting off those states' tax base from the US economy might be a wake up call for both sides over what advantages the other offers, while also helping to shake up a number of issues due to complacency and corruption. Lack of federal spending in California means the interstate highways and other roads will need to locally maintained, something California is entirely capable of, but which has been neglected due to a preference for federal funds (at the expense of other things like drinking/smoking age, which may stay where they are, but were in part raised in order to keep getting federal funding.)
An added bonus: separation of California from the US could be used to segregate the western and eastern seaboard entertainment industries, whose decline has been in part due to media companies gobbling up industry members on both coasts. If secession takes place and restrictions are put in place, we may see a new influx of creativity in the industry which hasn't been seen since the move west to avoid the patents in the early part of the last century.
Downsides to it is less trust in the US Dollar, political uncertainty worldwide, and the possibility of Russia/China taking it as an opportunity to project military force while the weakened US is distracted.
Personally I think it is still worth the risk, especially if California undoes some of the shortcomings the Clinton/Bush era feds did with decommissioning bases in California (notably the entire Sacramento region, which had dozens of army, reserve, and air force bases sold off to private parties. Including all but one in the capital!
Errm... you realize Federal aid is going with California, yes? If the east and west segregate, DC isn't going to side with the midwest and south, I think that's pretty obvious. If almost all of the states that are the financial backbone of the federal government leave, and the federal government itself has no connection with those parts of the country, why on earth would it stay behind?
Re:Fine (Score:4, Informative)
California actually pays the federal government more money in taxes than it gets back in benefits, so... it would do fine, actually. It's not a lot more - I think in 2014 California got back 95 cents for every dollar in taxes - but it's still close enough that California could take over paying for federal programs itself without any significant disruptions in services or programs.