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Transportation

Scooters In Cities Are Becoming A Huge Problem (cnn.com) 169

An anonymous reader quotes CNN: Stewart Goodwin tried to put a stop to the constant flow of scooters into the plaza he oversees. He spoke to the government and scooter companies, but to no avail. "We still find scooters in our fountains," Goodwin, executive director of the Indiana War Memorials in Indianapolis, told CNN Business. "We find them in the canal. We find them strewn all over the sidewalks."

In the Wild West of transportation, no one knows what to do about scooters. They appeared suddenly in many cities, triggering complaints of clutter and blocked sidewalks. When ridden, scooters emerged as sidewalk bullies -- fast enough to unsettle pedestrians and create safety issues. But force scooters into the streets and they are slow and vulnerable amid two-ton vehicles, not to mention potholes that can swallow small tires.

Now, governments, communities and businesses -- even the scooter companies themselves -- are playing catchup on finding the right rules for scooters, and how to enforce them....

None of this is what was supposed to happen.

CNN notes that this summer Atlanta banned nighttime riding "following a string of scooter deaths," while other cities have totally banned scooters, "with lingering memories of how Uber stormed onto their streets and created long-lasting challenges for local governments."
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Scooters In Cities Are Becoming A Huge Problem

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  • I don't think scooters are a problem, there's a bunch of news articles saying they are a problem, but the majority of people surveyed seem to really like them. The fact that scooters are so dang popular, well, everywhere, is a testament to how effective they are. Yes people don't park them in good spots and yeah they can fall over but honestly I live in ground zero and don't see them laying about like you do in the pictures. Most problems with scooters stem from lack of non-car transport infrastructure in c

    • by ZorinLynx ( 31751 ) on Sunday September 01, 2019 @03:50PM (#59147246) Homepage

      The problem with scooters, and pretty much any service like this, is not so much the scooters themselves, but inconsiderate, selfish people. Inconsiderate and selfish people are the main reason we can't have a lot of nice things that we otherwise could have. For example, one reason we don't have more public restrooms in big cities is because inconsiderate, selfish people trash them, or use them to shoot up with drugs, then leave their needles and such in them. City administrators find it easier to just not provide the service than to deal with these problems.

      Society would be a far better place if it weren't for the 1-2% of individuals who don't know how to live in society without ruining things for everyone else. Unfortunately that 1-2% will always exist, and there's nothing we can do about it. So here we are.

      • As far as I can tell it's the top 25-30% of society that holds the rest of it together. A full 30% of society is in favor, or at least apathetic to the idea, of destroying everything that doesn't fit their local "tribe" ideals and generally makes things terrible for a big chunk of society. Everybody needs affordable transit, however.

      • "For example, one reason we don't have more public restrooms in big cities is because inconsiderate, selfish people trash them, or use them to shoot up with drugs, then leave their needles and such in them. City administrators find it easier to just not provide the service than to deal with these problems"

        And yet people still have to shit and piss, and ,lord help you if you have IBS or some other condition where you need ready access to a bathroom.
        Of course, they don't provide bathrooms, and yet it'

      • by 6Yankee ( 597075 )

        I saw an actual pile of the damned things in Helsinki last time I was there. People apparently ride them through the park, can't be arsed to carry them up three steps, and just abandon them in the middle of the path.

        As long as there is no penalty for being a lazy inconsiderate asshat, lazy inconsiderate asshats will be lazy inconsiderate asshats.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by KiloByte ( 825081 )

      On the other hand, cars are a problem. Every sidewalk is full of them, so is every imaginable space in the city. And let's not start about safety issues and pollution...

      Scooters might not be ideal, but bashing them on these issues by people using cars is hypocritical.

      • Very insightful.

        We need our communities to support multiple modes of transportation effectively, and for the most part they have failed. We pedestrians, bicycles, scooters, horses, cars, trucks, light rail, and trains really aren’t compatible on common pathways, so why do we force them there? Logistically, each above group has ranges of travelers that are incompatible as well— beach cruiser mobs, casual bikers, road racers, and electric assist bikes have huge compatibility issues, as do differ

  • I call Bullsh*t (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Etcetera ( 14711 ) on Sunday September 01, 2019 @03:47PM (#59147228) Homepage

    "None of this is what was supposed to happen."

    That's BS. Scooters (in California at least) were as much in violation of laws as the sudden spurge of dockless bikes were a few months before they debuted. This was an intentional movement in the Uber manner: "break the law first and ask forgiveness later".

    In addition to being public nuisances and storing commercial property on public thoroughfares, they enticed violation of law by encouraging use without a helmet (same for the bikes). Saying "you agree to use a helmet when riding this" is risible when the entire business model is based around people who obviously are not walking around with bicycle helmets. (The lack thereof is primarily the cause of the fatalities that have occurred.)

    Scooter and bike companies (and the progressives cheering them on) shouldn't be claiming non-culpability here -- they wanted to do this and to get first-mover benefits, caring little about negative externalities.

    • And cities could ban them if they wanted to get rid of them. That is a power they have.
      • by Etcetera ( 14711 )

        And cities could ban them if they wanted to get rid of them. That is a power they have.

        In theory, yes. Punitive (as in: let's put them out of business) fines were an option, but the massive explosion of the industry has moved faster than even local regulation could keep up. Enforcement was practically impossible for a while, and almost still is... See: https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/politics/sd-me-scooter-rules-20180919-story.html [sandiegouniontribune.com], which was a solid year after they first appeared here.

      • by Cederic ( 9623 )

        That's not necessary. Just apply existing laws.

        They're unsafe and illegal to ride on pavements so stop and fine anybody doing that.
        They're not road legal so stop and fine anybody riding them on the road.

        People will stop using them because they keep getting stopped fined, and losing their driving licences. That will put the scooter companies out of business. Problem solved.

    • by davecb ( 6526 )

      Toronto had docked, not dockless, bicycles. They didn't make the suppliers instant money they way dockless did, but are working out fairly well.

      My company's new office is a short scoot from the main train and subway station, so if someone wants to offer docked scooters, I have a high-value location for them to consider!

    • Re:I call Bullsh*t (Score:5, Interesting)

      by careysub ( 976506 ) on Sunday September 01, 2019 @05:58PM (#59147562)

      Hmm... looks like there is a business opportunity here, especially with this "let's just break the law for profit until someone stops us" thing.

      Start a business that collects scooters off of sidewalks, strips them for parts, and recycles them. Voila, sidewalks are now uncluttered. If the scooter companies are not managing these things that they claim to own, treating them like abandoned property, and throwing them in fountains or dumpster are not crimes why not just pick them up for profit?

      • by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

        Hmm... looks like there is a business opportunity here, especially with this "let's just break the law for profit until someone stops us" thing.

        Start a business that collects scooters off of sidewalks, strips them for parts, and recycles them. Voila, sidewalks are now uncluttered. If the scooter companies are not managing these things that they claim to own, treating them like abandoned property, and throwing them in fountains or dumpster are not crimes why not just pick them up for profit?

        I think this alre

      • by Etcetera ( 14711 )

        Start a business that collects scooters off of sidewalks, strips them for parts, and recycles them. Voila, sidewalks are now uncluttered. If the scooter companies are not managing these things that they claim to own, treating them like abandoned property, and throwing them in fountains or dumpster are not crimes why not just pick them up for profit?

        This does indeed exist [scootscoop.com] here in San Diego, operating somewhere between unlicensed nuisance collectors and a tow company (depending on if the scooter company owning it has been properly licensed with the city or not).

        More articles: https://www.10news.com/news/local-news/san-diego-news/san-diego-company-tackling-scooter-infestation-with-free-removal-from-property [10news.com]
        https://patch.com/california/san-diego/will-san-diego-scoot-scoop-guys-slay-electric-scooter-goliaths [patch.com]
        https://jalopnik.com/vigilantes-are-taking-scoote [jalopnik.com]

      • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        This has been happening for at least a year already.

        There are actually two companies. One collects the scooters and impounds them on behalf of the city, charging the scooter company a fee. If they don't collect they throw the scooter in an auction.

        Another company makes conversion kits to make the scooters suitable for personal use.

        Alternatively the new owner can just strip for parts and buy a kit that turns the lithium cells into a usable battery.

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • On sidewalks, paths, subdivisions sure. On roads posted @35mph or greater helmets are usually required if you are riding in a designated bicycle lane.

        • Around here its entirely up to the municipality to make a helmet law. There is no state requirement and most cities do not require it either. Speed limit zones are irrelevant.
      • by Etcetera ( 14711 )

        they enticed violation of law by encouraging use without a helmet (same for the bikes)

        Um, in most states it's perfectly legal to ride a bicycle without a helmet. Stupid, but legal.

        Indeed. In fact, before scooters (and dockless bikes) I would have agreed that these laws were a bad idea ... and I think most San Diegans would have agreed too. San Diego has a strong recreational/outdoor vibe and a lot of people riding bikes for fun or exercise. Most of them bike somewhat regularly and ... well, are adults and know what they're doing. (Commuter biking is entirely different. We have basically no commuter bike culture because of our geography.) Helmet laws seemed superfluous in those cases,

    • I got news for you, you dont need a helmet to ride a bike, period. If you are out doing hardcore downhilling sure, you need a helmet. You dont need one for everyday biking. Im so fucking tired of morons like you pretending to know whats best. Do you wear a helmet walking around? How about when driving?
      • by Etcetera ( 14711 )

        I got news for you, you dont need a helmet to ride a bike, period. If you are out doing hardcore downhilling sure, you need a helmet. You dont need one for everyday biking. Im so fucking tired of morons like you pretending to know whats best. Do you wear a helmet walking around? How about when driving?

        See above for a response. I would have agreed with you, and most Californians would have too, until the recent explosion in bike/scooter usage due to dockless availability. The clientele is different with these; even proportionally with the increased usage, we're seeing a ton more injuries. Remember, San Diego is primarily a tourist/recreation city. And regular suburban bikers biking for exercise probably do it often and know the streets. (Also, FWIW, San Diego has tons of hills everywhere -- which is one o

    • by dfghjk ( 711126 )

      "and the progressives cheering them on"

      You were doing so well up to that point. Why ruin such an excellent, objective post with a worthless political jab at the end?

      • by Etcetera ( 14711 )

        "and the progressives cheering them on"

        You were doing so well up to that point. Why ruin such an excellent, objective post with a worthless political jab at the end?

        I think it's a fair jab. There's a lot of division in San Diego over these (and all of the cities in California, really), but those who are pushing for increased usage and liberal (no pun intended) licensing and enforcement laws against them are the ones going on about:
        a) how useful they are in the high-density cores that correlate with YIMBY development interests (which much of San Diego is fighting against),
        b) climate change requiring drastic solutions NOW, and this being a reasonable last-mile transporta

    • Let me guess, you're an automobile commuter?

      • by Etcetera ( 14711 )

        Let me guess, you're an automobile commuter?

        Let me guess, you live in New York City and didn't learn to drive until late and possibly rarely do?

        San Diego has a 3% transit ridership rate, and 94% of households have at least one car. Most (>60%) have two, including most families.

        Take a look at a map -- especially a topographical map -- of San Diego County to see why. As a native who *couldn't* drive until age 20 thanks to an accident on my permit when I was 15, I wouldn't wish forced transit on my worst enemy.

        And even for the rare situations (mostly

  • by ColaMan ( 37550 ) on Sunday September 01, 2019 @03:54PM (#59147256) Journal

    This is why we can't have nice things.

    Companies: "Hey, let's litter public spaces with scooters for profit! Our users will surely Do The Right Thing and use and park them politely, haha. And we don't have to pay for storage, and we can hire randoms to charge them overnight for a pittance!!"

    Users: "I don't own this scooter and there's no real repercussions for me dumping this thing anywhere! INTO THE FOUNTAIN IT GOES!! haha"

    It's not quite a case of, "everyone will fuck over public spaces if they get a chance", but there's a high enough percentage of people that will do so, either to make a profit, or be lazy, or just to be dicks for lulz. And that percentage ruins it for everyone.

    • It's not quite a case of, "everyone will fuck over public spaces if they get a chance", but there's a high enough percentage of people that will do so, either to make a profit, or be lazy, or just to be dicks for lulz. And that percentage ruins it for everyone.

      I work at a large university, and unfortunately here those percentages seem rather high. I haven’t seen many scooters around here yet, but those Lime bikes seem to get left in places deliberately chosen to interfere with foot traffic. I am not convinced it’s riders doing this... I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that the people hired to move the bikes around are instructed to place them deliberately this way to get attention.

      • We've had Lime scooters here since May (authorized by the city council, not just dumped), and I think you're right about them being placed badly but wrong about who's doing it. Up until recently, yeah some people left them parked in slightly obstructive ways, or some fell over and blocked the path, but suddenly 2 weeks ago I started seeing some parked that were pretty clearly deliberately offensive; perpendicular across the entire sidewalk, right in the crosswalk to street ramp... it really looks like the a
  • by Mal-2 ( 675116 ) on Sunday September 01, 2019 @04:22PM (#59147348) Homepage Journal

    Just schedule a hurricane and everyone will go out and pick up their scooters. Then you can cancel the hurricane by dropping a nuke on it.

  • A simple solution. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by gijoel ( 628142 ) on Sunday September 01, 2019 @04:25PM (#59147356)
    Impound the damn things and charge the company a hefty fee to get it back. There are companies that specialize in this now. [theverge.com] If you're feeling particularly generous to these companies you can even point out that they can pass the fine on to the customer.
  • Simple answer (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Rick Zeman ( 15628 ) on Sunday September 01, 2019 @04:26PM (#59147364)

    Drop them in the nearest dumpster since they're litter. Expensive litter, but litter nonetheless.

    • ...and get off my lawn.

    • by GlennC ( 96879 )

      Drop them in the nearest dumpster since they're litter.

      Or you can take a cheap chop saw, remove the control unit and sell the rest to a local scrap dealer.

      • You'd change your tune if you parked your car overnight in the wrong spot and someone treated it like litter in the manner you say.

        Even if someone parks their car in your front yard, you can't legally move it to the lake, just sayin.

        • by Bert64 ( 520050 )

          If you park your car in the wrong spot it's likely to get towed or clamped, and will cost you significantly to retrieve it...
          On the public roads in most countries you will have paid a tax for your car which allows you to use it on public roads and leave it on public roads where there are no parking restrictions, if you haven't paid this tax then your car is also likely to get towed away and subsequently destroyed.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Such a waste! They have perfectly good batteries, usually 200-400Wh of capacity you could repurpose, and a decent motor you could recycle.

      Also many jurisdictions don't allow you to throw lithium batteries in the trash for safety reasons.

  • The problem is the silly idea that people will treat them well if they are not personally owned
    If it was my scooter, I wouldn't throw it in a river unless I was drunk and angry at it for failing

  • by Solandri ( 704621 ) on Sunday September 01, 2019 @04:46PM (#59147420)
    This seems really simple to me. The scooters have identifying markings on them indicating who owns them. Just charge the owner for cleaning the scooters out of fountains, canals, etc. If they're parked on public sidewalks away from designated bike parking locations, treat them like illegally parked cars. Tow companies should be able to collect them, and charge the company the storage fee to get them back from impound, or sell them for scrap after a certain amount of time. The scooter companies are trying to fight this [fox5sandiego.com], but it's really the solution which makes the most sense.

    "But we can't control where users park the scooter when they're finished using them!" That's your problem, not the public's. Your business model needs to incorporate something to keep these things from becoming a public nuisance. The car rental business seems to have no problem getting people to return cars to a designated return area after use. Same for the cart rentals at airports. Public sidewalks are for moving on, not storing your stuff on. I'll get a ticket if I park a trailer in my driveway so part of it sticks into the sidewalk. We're not singling out scooters for unfair treatment, they're currently enjoying unfair lenient treatment and we're just trying to get them treated the same as everything else.
    • by schwit1 ( 797399 )

      Agreed, but California says otherwise with its burgeoning homeless population. It's starting to look like scenes from Soylent Green.

    • This is not even a difficult problem to solve. You have certain areas you must return them to. When you rent one, it holds an extra 10$ deposit on your card. When you return it to an appropriate area, it returns your deposit otherwise they keep it.
    • by jeti ( 105266 )
      Why is there space for parking cars all along the roads, but none for bicycles and scooters? Where are they supposed to go? And no, these spaces are not paid for by taxes on cars and gas.
      • 'Cuz good, virtuous people drive cars. They _deserve_ ubiquitous parking! Whereas those damned kids driving clean, efficient, environmentally friendly scooters - will, they're the scum of the earth and should be glad we don't just have the gestapo beat them on sight!

  • by DatbeDank ( 4580343 ) on Sunday September 01, 2019 @05:16PM (#59147488)

    Frankly, these obnoxious pieces of metal shouldn't be on our sidewalks driving or otherwise. I see jack asses zooming down sidewalks all of the time.

    Want an easy solution to getting rid of these obnoxious pieces of crap? Require every one of them to be registered like cars and that each rider have insurance. Not having a helmet is a finable offense that can get your insurance dropped - meaning you can't ride anymore.

    I'm sick of these things being left all over the place and the tool bags who zip around with them piled 15 high in their nasty pickups. It's time to fight dirty.

    • I like the idea of enacting a law similar to maritime salvage. Private individuals and companies would be allowed to confiscate 'offending ' scooters, as long as the scooter was recycled or the components otherwise repurposed, in an environmentally sound manner.

      The most efficient regulations are ones that pit profit versus profit, rather than profit versus politics.
    • Jawohl, mein Herr! Ve vill have das gestapo get das kids off die lawn!

  • Maybe this isn't an issue in the US where it's tough to walk much in many cities, but in Europe I can't help but wonder what ubiquitous scooting will do to public health, by cutting down even further on the amount we all walk.

  • Which do you think gets more clicks:

    "Scooters In Cities Are Becoming A Huge Problem"

    or

    "Other than a few assholes, Scooters are great"

    • Its not just a few assholes so much, I would say at least half of what seems like idiot assholery can be attributed to maintenance issues. Specifically the brakes. Birds regenerative brakes can be absolute rubbish going down a 15-20 degree downgrade...there is nothing like discovering you have no brake control during high traffic going down a curved 20 degree hill with no place to go. ....Pro tip, if that ever happens, the rear fender is supposed to either have an emergency brake or you can stamp on the rea

    • by clovis ( 4684 )

      or the more accurate:
      "Other than a lot of assholes, scooters are great."

  • .....Goodwin, executive director of the Indiana War Memorials in Indianapolis, told CNN Business.

    So treat them like coins. You find those in your fountains too, no?

    Recycle them and donate the proceeds to something worthwhile.

     

  • The problem isn't the scooters, or the e-bikes. It's the riders. They don't face any penalty for leaving their rides in inappropriate places, so they drop them at whatever spot they're done with them and leave them. The cops don't ticket the companies when that happens either, so the companies have no incentive to do anything about it that might cost them revenue. Compare this with Zipcar and the like, where if you leave the car parked where it shouldn't be when you're done with it the cops will ticket it a

  • will be treated the same?

    Fun to wonder about unintended consequences.
    - a mobile tagging platform displaying your tagging skills in places you can't begin to imagine ;)

    Just my 2 cents ;)
  • This is what you get if you build your infrastructure around cars alone. Scooters are not the problem as such, lacking infrastructure is.

    Do note, by the way, that cars have always been a problem, especially in the US, where they kill about 40000 people a year - the highest number of traffic fatalities per capita of any Western country by far (not counting the additional 71000 yearly deaths caused by air pollution).

    Scooters are not the problem, they are part of the solution, you fools.

    https://en.wikipedia.or [wikipedia.org]

  • Here in the UK they have never been legal on public land, because the only vehicles allowed on pavements (sidewalks) are those used by the disabled and infants, and they are not legal on roads because they do not have two independent braking systems, as do all legal pedal cycles. Problem solved. Except not quite, because the police are unfortunately not all that keen on enforcement. At least it has kept hire companies from operating here, and if you try to buy one, vendors like Amazon are forced to tell
  • the way we transport is changing quickly, and infrastructure is not changing along fast enough with it.
    more bikes and other modes of transport are on the rise, but as mentioned in tfa, they have no place of their own (not on the pavement, not the streets) so they are a nuisance to everybody.

  • by satsuke ( 263225 ) on Monday September 02, 2019 @07:10AM (#59148622)

    Kansas City (Missouri) went a different direction, by allowing a local transportation nonprofit to operate "RideKC" scooters and bicycles.

    There's still the problem of being left in random places, but i don't think you'll find a simple remedy for that.

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