Google's Web App Plans Collide With Apple's iPhone, Safari Rules (cnet.com) 57
Google and Apple, which already battle over mobile operating systems, are opening a new front in their fight. How that plays out may determine the future of the web. From a report: Google was born on the web, and its business reflects its origin. The company depends on the web for search and advertising revenue. So it isn't a surprise that Google sees the web as key to the future of software. Front and center are web apps, interactive websites with the same power as conventional apps that run natively on operating systems like Windows, Android, MacOS and iOS. Apple has a different vision of the future, one that plays to its strengths. The company revolutionized mobile computing with its iPhone line. Its profits depend on those products and the millions of apps that run on them. Apple, unsurprisingly, appears less excited about developments, like web apps, that could cut into its earnings.
The two camps aren't simply protecting their businesses. Google and Apple have philosophical differences, too. Google, working to pack its dominant Chrome browser with web programming abilities, sees the web as an open place of shared standards. Apple, whose Safari browser lacks some of those abilities, believes its restraint will keep the web healthy. It wants a web that isn't plagued by security risks, privacy invasion and annoyances like unwanted notifications and permission pop-ups. Google leads a collection of heavy-hitting allies, including Microsoft and Intel, trying to craft new technology called progressive web apps, which look and feel like native apps but are powered by the web. PWAs work even when you have no network connection. You can launch PWAs from an icon on your phone home screen or PC start menu, and they can prod you with push notifications and synchronize data in the background for fast startup. PWA fans include Uber, travel site Trivago and India e-commerce site Flipkart. Starbucks saw its website usage double after it rolled out a PWA.
The split over native apps and web apps is more than just a squabble between tech giants trying to convert our lives online into their profits. How it plays out will shape what kind of a digital world we live in. Choosing native apps steers us to a world where we're locked into either iOS or Android, limited to software approved by the companies' app stores and their rules. Web apps, on the other hand, reinforce the web's strength as a software foundation controlled by no single company. A web app will work anywhere, making it easier to swap out a Windows laptop for an iPad. "What you're seeing is the tension between what is good for the user, which is to have a flexible experience, and what's good for the platform, which is to keep you in the platform as much as possible," said Mozilla Chief Technology Officer Eric Rescorla.
The two camps aren't simply protecting their businesses. Google and Apple have philosophical differences, too. Google, working to pack its dominant Chrome browser with web programming abilities, sees the web as an open place of shared standards. Apple, whose Safari browser lacks some of those abilities, believes its restraint will keep the web healthy. It wants a web that isn't plagued by security risks, privacy invasion and annoyances like unwanted notifications and permission pop-ups. Google leads a collection of heavy-hitting allies, including Microsoft and Intel, trying to craft new technology called progressive web apps, which look and feel like native apps but are powered by the web. PWAs work even when you have no network connection. You can launch PWAs from an icon on your phone home screen or PC start menu, and they can prod you with push notifications and synchronize data in the background for fast startup. PWA fans include Uber, travel site Trivago and India e-commerce site Flipkart. Starbucks saw its website usage double after it rolled out a PWA.
The split over native apps and web apps is more than just a squabble between tech giants trying to convert our lives online into their profits. How it plays out will shape what kind of a digital world we live in. Choosing native apps steers us to a world where we're locked into either iOS or Android, limited to software approved by the companies' app stores and their rules. Web apps, on the other hand, reinforce the web's strength as a software foundation controlled by no single company. A web app will work anywhere, making it easier to swap out a Windows laptop for an iPad. "What you're seeing is the tension between what is good for the user, which is to have a flexible experience, and what's good for the platform, which is to keep you in the platform as much as possible," said Mozilla Chief Technology Officer Eric Rescorla.
what if you're not connected? (Score:5, Insightful)
Google assumes that everybody can always contact the web at any time, and is never out of contact.
I want apps that work even if I am NOT connected to the web.
Learn how to read (Score:4, Informative)
.
"Google leads a collection of heavy-hitting allies, including Microsoft and Intel, trying to craft new technology called progressive web apps, which look and feel like native apps but are powered by the web. PWAs work even when you have no network connection"
Learn how to think (Score:1)
PWAs work even when you have no network connection
While it's very kind of you to believe the summary that is heavily slanted towards PWA, maybe you should question the foundation of assumptions made before you take it at face value...
How do you fetch a PWA ahead of time, the way you can an app?
If the PWA is not already loaded, it certainly will not be if there's no connection.
In the PWA world you can just stroll up to a rental bike stand, and use a PWA to rent a bike. But if you have no connection, and ha
Re: (Score:3)
How do you fetch a PWA ahead of time, the way you can an app?
That's a typically stupid question. The answer is right in your question: ahead of time.
In the PWA world you can just stroll up to a rental bike stand, and use a PWA to rent a bike. But if you have no connection, and have not rented from them before, you are out of luck.
That is exactly how apps work.
You are complaining about a problem that, while it exists, is no different from the current state of affairs.
It looks a lot like you don't understand the argument.
Can the user choose to pin a PWA? (Score:2)
A Progressive Web Application can be unloaded automatically when it falls low enough on the browser's "frecency" heuristic that it no longer justifies the install footprint of its Service Worker. By contrast, a native app is "pinned" until the user uninstalls it. Or do the major non-Apple web browsers (Firefox, Chrome, and Edge) offer a way to pin a PWA?
Exactly!! (Score:1)
A Progressive Web Application can be unloaded automatically
This is exactly why I mentioned the unloading possibility, although you can MAYBE try to load it ahead of time (how exactly?) you can't be sure it will still be there when you need it.
If you change that to say PWAs stay around forever, then you wind up with a lot of garbage.
I think something LIKE a PWA has a place (Apple is doing it's own version with App Clips), but you can't just simply claim PWAs will not have issues if you lack an internet conne
Re: (Score:2)
you can't just simply claim PWAs will not have issues if you lack an internet connection.
Ideally, I could claim that a pinned PWA won't have more issues than a native app if I lack an always-on Internet connection. So to make PWAs compatible wtih App Store apps on iOS and Google Play apps on Android, browser publishers would need to let users choose to do two things: pin an PWA, and increase a PWA's storage quota if the PWA has a good reason to be storage-intensive.
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A Progressive Web Application can be unloaded automatically
This is exactly why I mentioned the unloading possibility, although you can MAYBE try to load it ahead of time (how exactly?) you can't be sure it will still be there when you need it.
https://www.howtogeek.com/fyi/how-to-install-progressive-web-apps-pwas-in-chrome/
If you use Twitter and Chrome (or Firefox, I think; haven't tried), you can try this easily. Go to twitter.com, click on the menu, click "Install Twitter". Done. Now you should find it in your OS app launcher, or you can go to chrome://apps. Want to uninstall it? From the Twitter app, click the menu, click "Uninstall Twitter". Done.
It works just fine, really. It's like being able to use an app without installing it, the
Still not sold. (Score:2)
Thanks for the info on installing, that is useful to know...
But it doesn't solve the automatic unloading issue, and as for this:
The advantage of PWAs to users, of course, is that they look and work the same on every device you have or might want to have, regardless of the device OS.
In my history of mobile and portable development, from Java applets to current mobile platform dev, apps that supposedly "look and work the same" always end up being really mediocre compared to native apps, so most companies wou
Re: (Score:2)
But it doesn't solve the automatic unloading issue
What unloading issue?
In my history of mobile and portable development, from Java applets to current mobile platform dev, apps that supposedly "look and work the same" always end up being really mediocre compared to native apps, so most companies would just build native apps anyway or have people simply not make use of what they have to offer.
The web has many, many excellent counterexamples.
Re: (Score:1)
What unloading issue?
Read the previous threads, PWA's can be unloaded by the system automatically - so if you pre-loaded a PWA ahead of a trip, the system could decide you had not used it a day or so after landing, and just dispose of it... there's no mechanism to tell the system to keep a PWA except by use.
The web has many, many excellent counterexamples.
There we'll have to agree to disagree as I can think of exactly zero that are compelling argument for replacing native apps. Google Docs is certainly not
Re: (Score:2)
What unloading issue?
Read the previous threads, PWA's can be unloaded by the system automatically - so if you pre-loaded a PWA ahead of a trip, the system could decide you had not used it a day or so after landing, and just dispose of it... there's no mechanism to tell the system to keep a PWA except by use.
This is not how PWAs work in Chrome. You install it, it's there until you uninstall it.
Re: (Score:1)
Someone else posted rules around when they uninstall, maybe it's only on mobile platforms... but it does make sense as you don't want what are meant to be small temporary apps, to clog up your system.
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There has not been a single web application I can think of, that did not have a better in every way native counterpart.
What's the "better in every way native counterpart" to the web application titled "Slashdot Discussion System"?
But is your app a system seller? (Score:2)
apps that supposedly "look and work the same" always end up being really mediocre compared to native apps, so most companies would just build native apps anyway or have people simply not make use of what they have to offer.
Except most prospective users wouldn't buy a Mac just to use one Mac-exclusive native app nor buy an iPhone just to use one iOS-exclusive native app.
As a company, frankly I'd rather just write iOS and Android native apps and be done with it, offering a more functional native solution and supporting only two code bases instead of three.
Say you hire one team to write an iOS app and hire a second team to write and maintain an Android app. How do you plan to support customers who want to use the service to which your app connects but is currently sitting in front of a Mac, a Windows PC, an X11/Linux PC, or a Chromebook?
Re: (Score:2)
So, arguing that this is an unmanageable level of complexity is equivalent to arguing that operating systems are unmanageably complex.
Multiuser operating systems have mostly shown that operating systems are unmanageably complex. You basically cannot do multiuser securely on any common OS. OpenBSD does not have an "Only x local root exploits in y years", they only have an "Only x remote exploits in y years".
Browsers are inherently multiuser, in that it is the remote site that decides which code to run. Your operating system argument supports the other side, I'm afraid.
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My email app allows me to view emails that have been downloaded, which allows me to compose responses when I do not have a network connection. With a PWA, that mode of operation is less likely to work correctly. Plus, PWAs that cache emails in the browser's persistent storage is not as easily managed.
The other issue that I have with browsers is that I view it as a large attack surface. I much prefer accessing financial services via an application vice the browser. At least with the application I know t
Re:Learn how to think (Score:5, Interesting)
I've gone down the PWA rabbit hole a few times. All in all, I really like the concept, and for simple things they work really well. The problem right now is on iOS the service worker has some limitations that prevent it from being really useful, but it's close.
The service worker concept does skeeve me out a bit. I'm not sure I want some chucklehead's JS doing things in the background that touch on things like notifications and background sync. And the available ways you can shoot yourself in the foot, multiple times, with PWAs is pretty impressive. At a certain point it may be more efficient to learn native app development, or pay a native app developer, and just take the 30% app store hit. Number one is what the GP was talking about, which is lack of network connectivity. If you're not super careful, your app will at best seem broken. At worst, you can open yourself up to fraud. Frameworks help in mitigating this, but it's not simple.
Re: (Score:2)
Google and Apple have philosophical differences, too. Google, working to pack its dominant Chrome browser with web tracking abilities,
Re: what if you're not connected? (Score:2)
RTFA:
"PWAs work even when you have no network connection."
Everything that would have been stored locally in an app is stored locally for a PWA. So a PWA that doesn't work when you're offline would have been an app that doesn't work offline.
Re: (Score:3)
RTFA: "PWAs work even when you have no network connection."
But they don't.
Well, sometimes they do. And sometimes they don't.
And if they don't, you're out of luck.
Re: (Score:2)
You mean, like an app? Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. And if they don't, you're SOL if you don't have a connection so that you can at least check for an update.
No, not like an app (Score:1)
You mean, like an app?
Apps don't get unloaded automatically by the system. PWAs do.
There are fewer reasons an app might fail to work with no internet connectivity than a PWA.
The architecture of a PWA being lighter, also inherently will lean more heavily to always one connections being required than an app will.
Re: (Score:2)
Apps don't get unloaded automatically by the system. PWAs do.
That can and should be fixed. That's not PWAs' fault.
Web apps where practically invented by Apple ... (Score:3, Interesting)
what about internet explorer active pages (Score:2)
They promised native code speed and sandboxes security. We're not secure and fragmented the web for non IE users.
Re: (Score:3)
I'm sorry, but did you just claim that Apple invented web apps? Really?
The fanboi is strong in this one, Obi-wan . . .
Re: (Score:2)
Oh, carp. Meant to reply to the poster above you.
Re: Web apps where practically invented by Apple . (Score:2)
That's true. The article is almost entirely click bait, manufacturing a controversy where there probably isn't one.
That said, Apple has been pushing heavy privacy restrictions for web apps for a while, but has only recently started to apply some of those same standards to apps from their app store. If this article came out last year it might be accurate, but Apple's recent actions kind of paint a different picture.
Re: (Score:1)
That said, Apple has been pushing heavy privacy restrictions for web apps for a while, but has only recently started to apply some of those same standards to apps from their app store.
Can you name an example? In every case I can think of, restrictions on native apps were always ahead of, or equal to what web apps lived under.
Re: (Score:2)
manufacturing a controversy where there probably isn't one.
It does seem unlikely that Apple would wall web browsers out of their garden. It would be hilarious if it happened.
Re: (Score:3)
They sort of do: all browsers on iOS are forced to use WKWebView, which uses the same rendering/javascript engine as Safari.
The limitation is technically on the javascript side: apps are not allowed to download and interpret arbitrary code. Opera used to get around that by running the javascript on their proxy servers and sending the results down the pipe, but that's not really practical these days. As a result, all iOS browsers (Chrome, Firefox, etc) use WKWebView internally instead of their own rendering/
Re: (Score:2)
Interesting. However, the results will be just as hilarious whatever the details when the web apps stop working. People will be all like, "App my appy apping app??!?!?" and they'll spend a month re-learning English just to write their manifesto.
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We had web apps in the 90s, we just called them websites.
And apple didn't have anything but a regular website back then.
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You misspelled Microsoft [wikipedia.org]
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Yeah, and the nerd-rage over the lack of native apps is how jailbreaking was born which, in turn, led to Apple giving in and launching the App Store. That leads me to chuckle more than occasionally at people, now, who go on about how everything ought to be a web app. And especially at the modern nerd-rage about the App Store, the "walled garden", its policies, and pricing in the here-and-now... well, those walls, policies, and prices are only there because that lot was so offended at notion of web apps in
hahahaha (Score:2)
Apple, whose Safari browser lacks some of those abilities, believes its restraint will keep the web healthy.
lol
It wants a web that isn't plagued by security risks, privacy invasion and annoyances like unwanted notifications and permission pop-ups.
tooooooo late
How is it too late? (Score:1)
It wants a web that isn't plagued by security risks
To which you responded:
tooooooo late
Why are you throwing shade at the company that killed Flash?
It's never too late to try and stop the computer world devolving into a security and privacy morass.
Re: (Score:2)
It wants a web that isn't plagued by security risks
To which you responded:
tooooooo late
Why are you throwing shade at the company that killed Flash?
It's never too late to try and stop the computer world devolving into a security and privacy morass.
Sure, now go drain the great lakes with a teaspoon.
Re: (Score:1)
Sure, now go drain the great lakes with a teaspoon.
Preventing PWA's from taking hold is the equivalent of traveling backing time and filling in the depression where the Great Lakes would have been. I can simply use the teaspoon to enjoy my tea on the Plains of Privacy.
You are the one siding with building the lakes to begin with, then complaining you can't empty them with a spoon! Incredible.
I'll let you have the last word as you don't seem to understand well what is happening here.
So nice of you to keep it neutral (Score:2, Insightful)
The summary was doing a good job summing, up, but went off the rails:
Choosing native apps steers us to a world where we're locked into either iOS or Android...Web apps, on the other hand, reinforce the web's strength as a software foundation controlled by no single company.
Sure is mysterious who you are backing here!
Except that as we've seen in the past, a far extension of web technologies like Web Apps, in practice is supported by a handful of platforms only... so you'll be choosing between iOS and Android
Re: (Score:3)
This part got me:
Google, working to pack its dominant Chrome browser with web programming abilities, sees the web as an open place of shared standards.
To which I immediately thought... Yeah shared standards, as long as you're using Chrome.
Re: (Score:2)
Don't worry, as soon as they get popular Apple will adopt them and very soon their fanbois will be parroting the company wisdom that they invented the entire idea and Google just copied them.
One single company (Score:2)
Web apps, on the other hand, reinforce the web's strength as a software foundation controlled by no single company. A web app will work anywhere, making it easier to swap out a Windows laptop for an iPad.
Right up until it works nowhere ever again because the one single company that controls the web server the app talks to and requires to do anything at all decided to shut it down. Meanwhile my completely web ignorant applications still work on my computer a decade after they were released, doing exactly what I want them to do. Much to the chagrin of the companies that created them, who dearly wish to monetize the fuck out of every click I make and every byte I create, leaving me with no privacy, no contro
Original iPhone Vision Very Different (Score:5, Interesting)
Interestingly, the initial vision for the iPhone was that there would be no native 3rd party apps. They would all be written as a web app.
This quote from Jobs is in the article linked below:
"The full Safari engine is inside of iPhone. And so, you can write amazing Web 2.0 and Ajax apps that look exactly and behave exactly like apps on the iPhone. And these apps can integrate perfectly with iPhone services. They can make a call, they can send an email, they can look up a location on Google Maps.
And guess what? There’s no SDK that you need! You’ve got everything you need if you know how to write apps using the most modern web standards to write amazing apps for the iPhone today. So developers, we think we’ve got a very sweet story for you. You can begin building your iPhone apps today."
https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21... [9to5mac.com]
Re: (Score:2)
It didn't work out for a variety of reasons. They did put some stuff in place back then to run run web apps fullscreen from an icon on the home screen, but the performance of the early Safari javascript engines wasn't good enough, and the interaction with native functionality was too limited.
Nope that was always interim (Score:1)
Interestingly, the initial vision for the iPhone was that there would be no native 3rd party apps.
That was never the case long term, the docs for the SDK when released just a year later shows they had been working on making the API developer ready for some time.
Jobs was just trying to buy time until the SDK was ready to release.
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Interesting. I'd give you an informative if I could.
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St Jobs is dead, of course they don't follow His teachings anymore. They have to pervert His teachings to preserve His memory, or something.
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interesting /. threads! (Score:2)
Is it just me (yes, probably) or have interesting slashdot comment threads risen from the swamp of generic political / culture war flame warring lately? I'd stopped even looking at comments because of endless [ redacted ] noise. Now this is a good old fashioned spirited discussion about web standards without a mention that I saw of [ redacted ] or [ redacted ]. The AMD vs Intel post recently was a classic slashdot thread. Neck beards with serious domain knowledge going back and forth with just enough vitrio
Who here remembers.... (Score:5, Funny)
ActiveX.
Yes. This is where I think Google is going to end up.
Re: (Score:2)
Remember Gears [wikipedia.org]? All of that functionality (and more) is being or already has been added to Firefox and/or Chrome in HTML5 and/or its various spinoffs. We had persistent offline web apps back in the Gears days.
You no longer control your device (Score:2)
It is becoming to the point where you will have to grovel at Apple's (or other mega-corp's) smelly feet and beg "Oh please master! Let me run [desired] app, PLEEZE!". That is, if they ever open the throne room door so you can do your quivering at swordpoint.
This is the "Brave New World" they are creating, locking everything up and down to the point you are a dirty, soiled peasant who should be greatful to be allowed to use their Holy Royal Device. "The Cloud", will of course insure that "they" have more con
Re: (Score:2)
Explains why PWA support isn't great on the iPhone (Score:2)
While PWA's are able to be written that work on iOS, they're missing a bunch of features.
Coincidence? I think not.
There's nothing you can do about it because no-one else is allowed to replace Safari, only skin it. And the average non-tech is just going to use the bundled browser / browser components anyway - so PWA's will "suck" compared to apps from the AppStore.
Translation (Score:2)
Google, working to pack its dominant Chrome browser with web programming abilities, sees the web as an open place of shared standards.
Google, working to pack its domineering Chrome browser with Trojan horses that will eventually shift all applications and devices under Alphabet's control, sees the web as an open season on user privacy and autonomy.
There - FTFY Google. And fuck you too.