Facebook Goes After Apple (axios.com) 99
Facebook is seeking to force a face-off with Apple over its 30% in-app purchase commission fee, which Facebook suggests hurts small businesses struggling to get by during the pandemic. From a report: Facebook has never publicly gone after Apple, a key strategic partner, this aggressively. Both companies face antitrust scrutiny, which in Apple's case has centered on the very fee structure Facebook is now attacking. Facebook is trying to position itself as friendlier to small businesses than Apple, which also faces a lawsuit from Fortnite maker Epic Games over its commission and in-app payment restrictions. Facebook said Friday that it will launch "Paid Online Events" for small businesses in 20 countries around the world to charge Facebook users to attend their classes, instructions and other events. The feature could be useful for any small business or individual offering a service, such a preacher, musician, yoga teacher or cooking instructor. Facebook asked Apple to either waive its 30% cut or let Facebook go around it and process event payments via Facebook Pay, in either case letting event hosts keep all the revenue they generate. Apple declined, according to Facebook.
"Really what we're pushing on right now is to make sure all tech companies who can afford to do so join us in supporting small businesses," Fidji Simo, head of Facebook App, said on a press call Friday. Hosts will be able to collect the full ticket price from Facebook users who attend their online events via the web or Android. Facebook says it is using its own payment system on Android and letting developers keep all the money.
Re: Trump Goes after the Post Office (Score:1)
Facebook goes after Apple?? (Score:3)
Where's my popcorn!
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No matter who loses, we win.
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Re:Facebook goes after Apple?? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Are you arguing that ATT today is a reason for NOT breaking up the phone company then? Were you alive before that break up? Do you seriously think that the people were not better off because that occurred or that ATT would be a less shitty company today?
Re: Facebook goes after Apple?? (Score:1)
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Yeah, it is all becoming, "Don't look at me, look at them, look at what they are doing, they are worse". Let's hope the response from authorities is, "Not a problem, we have time to investigate you both". The monopolistic tech corporations have got away with far too much for far too long and really do need to be broken up into their component pieces, otherwise things will get much worse. They already look to be trying to set themselves up as governments, deciding who gets elected, who gets silenced, who get
Re:Facebook goes after Apple?? (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeah, I've just been waiting to see if Facebook joins in that fight. Facebook is quite possibly the only company in the world whose app Apple can't touch, because if their app suddenly became unavailable on the iOS App Store, Apple's stock price would crater within minutes.
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Re: Facebook goes after Apple?? (Score:2)
Why? Facebook going to stop working via a browser? This is just opportunistic nonsense on zuckerburgâ(TM)s part. If they are so altruistic, let them foot the bill. The big players would like nothing better than to have Apple charge $2,500 a year for Xcode to keep little guys from taking a single dollar from them.
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Facebook doesn't work very well in a browser. Although that might be Apple's browser implementation. I didn't have an iphone for long enough to really explore it.
Re: Facebook goes after Apple?? (Score:1)
Yeah, I've just been waiting to see if Facebook joins in that fight. Facebook is quite possibly the only company in the world whose app Apple can't touch, because if their app suddenly became unavailable on the iOS App Store, Apple's stock price would crater within minutes.
Oh looky, yet another âoeApple is doomedâ prediction.
Apple could stop production entirely tomorrow, and give every single employee worldwide a million dollar severance package, and still have money left over.
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Doomed? No. But only a fraction of their stock price is defined by their cash on hand. The rest is based on the assumption of future sales. And an iPhone without a Facebook app will not sell well.
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Doomed? No. But only a fraction of their stock price is defined by their cash on hand. The rest is based on the assumption of future sales. And an iPhone without a Facebook app will not sell well.
Exactly right. The cash on hand is in fact an impediment to investing. If, for example, has $100 in cash per share, then buying a share means first covering that $100 to get to the "meat" of the investment. You're trading cash for cash, but effectively reducing the amount of your investment that is "working".
Re: Facebook goes after Apple?? (Score:1)
Doomed *rollseyes* (Score:3)
Seriously, one of biggest mistakes in life is not rushing out and buying socks everyone an Apple fanboy defended Apple over something stupid.
Pointing out Apples shares might be hit considering its future revenue growth will come from inflating prices of handsets and selling services on its exiting products...is threated is not any claim of Doom you Pratt. So far the stock market are It'll be fine. Though Spotify, Microsoft, Facebook, Netflix and Epic have all made notices and all are big enough to...hold on
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Re:Facebook goes after Apple?? (Score:5, Informative)
have people forgotten how to use browsers?
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You need an app for messenger.
I use Friendly instead of the official Fb app. It has its downsides but you can get ad blocking for a dollar.
Re: Facebook goes after Apple?? (Score:1)
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One of the things I use Fb for is Marketplace, and the way you communicate with sellers is through Messenger. So I need messenger, and had to find some kind of solution.
Friendly is kind of crap to be honest, but Metal (the one I was using before) doesn't offer an ad blocking option, so fuck them.
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Facebook is quite possibly the only company in the world whose app Apple can't touch,
Apple would pull any app from the store in a heartbeat if they violate the terms. Doesn't matter how popular it is. This was just demonstrated.
Not really. Games are ephemeral. People play them for a while and get tired of them. Social media tends to be an ongoing investment that people care a lot about keeping long-term. The two are not even remotely comparable loyalty-wise. Taking away Facebook from an average Facebook user is comparable to forcing an iPhone user to switch to Android.
Also, for every regular Fortnite player on iOS (as opposed to people who just downloaded it and played it once or twice), there are probably a hundred Facebook
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No, it doesn't give away anything.
You must buy their hardware for development and testing (far from cheap) and you must pay 100$ each year.
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Only for physical product distribution. I'm pretty sure Kagi, Paypal, etc. never charged anything even remotely approaching that for digital product sales.
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Depends on the product. After you print and everything, you sell it to a distributor for anywhere from 50-75% off the retail price, so if it was a $40 item, the distributor will pay you $10-20 for it.
The distributor then generally sells the item to the retailer for 25% off retail price. To the retailer's warehouse, not direct to the store - that 25% retailer cut is for warehouse to store distribution and other stuff.
Di
Re: Facebook goes after Apple?? (Score:1)
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30% feels too high to me (maybe because I'm a developer and not a platform). Anything over 20% is criminal.
Back at the time the App store was launched, 30% was a bargain. It was was far cheaper than going via the retail channel, and cheaper than the various not-exactly-frequently-used stores for apps the mobile companies were having. Getting app and updates back was a pain. These days, 30% is pretty much the norm - Google, Steam, etc all do this. Epic doesn't, but their selling point is that they started the store just to get around giving the stores money.
So, does that mean that all is perfect? Absolutely no
Re: Facebook goes after Apple?? (Score:2)
Android, browser (Score:2)
Apple can touch Facebook (Score:2)
Facebook is quite possibly the only company in the world whose app Apple can't touch, because if their app suddenly became unavailable on the iOS App Store, Apple's stock price would crater within minutes.
Sure, Apple would not pull the app...
But there are a other vectors Apple can hurt Facebook where it really counts, and users would not care as much about - integrations.
Some of ti in fact Apple has already done, with further restrictions on what advertisers can get out of apps, and new security features th
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Yeah, I've just been waiting to see if Facebook joins in that fight. Facebook is quite possibly the only company in the world whose app Apple can't touch, because if their app suddenly became unavailable on the iOS App Store, Apple's stock price would crater within minutes.
I'm pretty sure that pendulum swings both ways. Imagine if Facebook lost a non-trivial chunk of their user-base because they thought it would be fun to poke the bear ( Apple ) with a stick. Facebook needs Apple more than they let on.
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Facebook is quite possibly the only company in the world whose app Apple can't touch, because if their app suddenly became unavailable on the iOS App Store, Apple's stock price would crater within minutes.
You think your kids use Facebook? Facebook is where their grandparents are, they stay away from it. If you think that Facebook is untouchable, you live in a bubble. Plus you can simply use Safari and go to facebook.com - except for messenger. Messenger is the one thing that doesn't work on the phone.
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Is this an alphabet thing?
trillion (Score:3)
Between this and Epic, good time to be a lawyer for Apple. With their trillion dollar valuation plenty to be had. Wonder if any others will jump on the band wagon.
Hopefully this will bring Apple down to earth and they actually have to compete for sales.
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good time to be a lawyer for Apple
Wouldn't Apple's in-house counsel be on salary?? Sounds like lots of uncompensated overtime...
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I'm pretty sure that Apple hires outside counsel for court cases. So it could be that you're both wrong. :-D
Don't believe it. (Score:2)
I would be shocked If Apple didn't have an army of lawyers. It wouldn't make any sense, the law is not like a smartphone...there are no armies of cheap Chinese children to assemble it. Ignoring the fact of having someone around you can ask all the what...if, Can we get away with..., Who need knowledge of the business, and a unique business on a worldwide scale, in the technology market... including hiding all that Tax. They will hire specialists, but I am certain it's Apples lawyers that brief them.
Re:trillion (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, compete against Facebook which will sell your information to everytone and everyone. Or Epic, who just wants to make sure they are the only ones making a buck - everyone else be damned. I'm sure Tim Sweeney is going to ask Tim Cook to not only send everyone an iPhone, but to bake Fortnite into the firmware so you can use V-Bucks everywhere. And oh yeah, forget about cost - Apple will pay for it all because only Tim can make money.
Facebook wants in because Apple refuses to share user information. The ideal App Store is one that uploads your entire phone to Facebook all the time.
Re:trillion (Score:5, Insightful)
Facebook wants in because Apple refuses to share user information.
And I don't want Apple sharing my user information, full stop.
I want no part of Facebook and I discourage any and all from participating in its ecosystem.
Already caught (Score:1)
Facebook already got caught sharing information with Apple so what are you talking about.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/tec... [bbc.co.uk]
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Facebook wants in because Apple refuses to share user information.
This.
Why am I happy to pay the higher prices Apple asks? Because they're not an advertising company, and I am their customer, not their product. I use Google and Facebook where I need to, but Apple wherever I have a choice for that reason.
And Facebook joining this conflict makes it clear which side anyone who wants to pick a side should be on. If you're on Facebook's side, you're a moron who is ready to sell his privacy to a company that spends millions tracking and analysing you in ways you don't know abou
Re: trillion (Score:1)
Winner or Loser (Score:2)
Google is in a very difficult position to Apple. Think how many services from Apple you see on Android...I can think of Apple Music. All Google services are on iOS...and they want to load their game service...Hell they could even launch a platform on iOS and call it Google Play wouldn't that be a thing.
Re: trillion (Score:2)
Hopefully this will bring Apple down to earth and they actually have to compete for sales.
You think they donâ(TM)t have to compete for sales now?
I wasnâ(TM)t aware of any laws requiring people to buy only Apple equipment, are you?
In Soviet valley... (Score:1)
Facebook attacks YOU!
More lawyers than programmers (Score:1)
I read somewhere years ago that the legal department at Apple has more employees than their core programming departments. Judging by Apple's software and number of lawsuits filed I believe it.
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I read somewhere years ago that the legal department at Apple has more employees than their core programming departments. Judging by Apple's software and number of lawsuits filed I believe it.
That's easy to believe. Development needs doesn't scale with number of sales the way number of lawsuits (actual and potential) do.
When there are no good guys (Score:1)
In a fight where there are no good guys, who do you root for?
Just let them claw each other and watch, I guess.
Re:When there are no good guys (Score:4, Funny)
Just let them claw each other and watch, I guess.
You know, a Cook vs Zuck PPV cage-match claws-and-teeth cat-fight could raise enough money to by enough of Congress to break up both companies...
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It's like they sense people are starting to get fed up. They know someone's going to get broken up, and they know it won't be all of them, so they've got to all start making each other look worse.
Don't believe it. (Score:2)
I am not saying you are wrong, but my impression is the status quo of tech giants is good for all of them, and after them all getting questioned they have kept their mouth shut.
What about XBOX (Score:2)
Doesn't microsoft require game developers to pay money in order to run the game on XBOX. So does Sony. So Sony/MS forms the same duopoly as Apple/Google in mobile world.
Will Sony or XBOX allow this FB app on their system which can download any uncertified game and run on it? MS is even more hypocrite. They want xCloud to run on iOS but if anyone else were to make xCloud equivalent software then they will ban on XBOX.
Apple allows free programs free on app store. Will XBOX/PSn do the same?
Apple is probably seen as an easier target (Score:2)
That said I can't see this going anywhere. Here's a nice long article [youtube.com] regarding why. TL;DW; Apple doesn't control enough of the smart phone market for them to have a strong anti-trust case.
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60-ish percent of the U.S. cell phone market isn't enough? *blinks*
How do you measure (Score:2)
How do you measure a monopoly? Epic claim they have 100% of the iOS marketplace. The EU says Android and iOS are two different markets. The laws don't seem to care about it being a monopoly it's about influence...and all of us agree Apple has it.
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The “game console” defense overlooks the fact that gaming consoles are advertised and sold as dedicated gaming platforms. Apple sells their iOS devices ostensibly as general purpose computers.
Also, console video games are available on physical media through multiple retail and rental merchants. Can you rent an iOS game from RedBox?
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8P (Score:1)
omg (Score:1)
Ironically enough they were caught sharing data to Apple.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/tec... [bbc.co.uk]
So nothing will change
Oh for fucks sake (Score:2)
If people don't want to pay the 30% fee to Apple, then don't fucking develop for that platform.
Apple does not control such a significant percentage of the mobile application market that competitors such as Android are superfluous.
While it's obvious that Apple controls enough of the market that not having access to it will have perceptible effects on potential for income, it is not some kind of right for businesses to always be maximize their profit making potential.
It's bad enough that Epic was doing
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On the other hand, the added value is not worth the 30%.
If you look at Steam, they ask 30% but they provide ...
- massive downloading/storage (we are talking about programs that weight several Gb)
- community forums for each game
- achievement system
- cloud save
- DRM
- Developments that support game creators
But in the Android/iPhone space, applications are small and there is little or no added value... And for extra-services (news paper subscription for example), no extra service at all... which means that th
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The other huge difference is that you aren't required to use Steam.
I'm fine with Android. You can jump thru a couple hoops and install an alternate app store like Amazon or something else.
I would be fine with Apple if they allowed alternate app stores even though that would potentially add a significant hurdle.
I would also be fine Apple if it was 15% instead of 30%. This is still much more than the 3% Stripe charges but they are
handling some of the marketing and billing and it wouldn't be worth fighting
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You aren't really required to use the app store either... You can freely distribute on Android without using Apple's app store.
iOS may be popular, but it's nowhere close to holding a monopoly on the mobile market. There's plenty of software that is Android-only.
You can even fairly easily distribute software for iOS without using the app store if you are willing to be creative, as long as you are willing to have a higher barrier for entry (target iOS audience must already own a Mac). Whether that req
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You're joking. IOS is 57% of our customers with Android being 42%. The apple tax at 30% would be a better deal than losing over half our customers. Our customers are also primarily blue-collar. How many of them have a mac much less know how to set up a dev environment and compile an app. Most of them likely don't even have a desktop at this point. On android we could probably step them thru how to enable third party apps but there is no such option on apple.
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That's fine for you then... but there are companies, like Facebook and Epic, that seem to disagree.
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That's fine for you then... but there are companies, like Facebook and Epic, that seem to disagree.
If you look at my previous post, I said that the 30% was unacceptable for us too so our app is a "companion app" and all billing is done on our website. I was just saying that not marketing to iphone users is a stupid argument when for most companies that cuts out half of their potential customers. This might be ok for a simple game but not for most companies that want to have a larger market share. The apple tax is a better deal for most companies than losing half their customer base but is still not an
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Important word there: "want".
What makes any company entitled to what it "wants"?
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Important word there: "want".
What makes any company entitled to what it "wants"?
Depending on the company and niche market, a 50% larger market can very well make the different between being a viable company or not.
Most companies especially small companies cannot afford to ignore half of their potential market.
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But again, what gives a company some sort of "right" to have access to an entire demographic as a potential market?
I'm not disputing that losing iOS market share can make or break some companies. I'm suggesting that there's absolutely nothing wrong with a company having "monopolistic" control over THEIR OWN fucking sales policies.
Facebook and Epic need to grow the fuck up and stop acting like children who are whining about not being able to have their own way.
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I'm suggesting that there's absolutely nothing wrong with a company having "monopolistic" control over THEIR OWN fucking sales policies.
Then the government needs to step in and either break up Apple or help create more competitors. It's not in the interest of an open society to have a significant portion of everyone's daily lives controlled by the whims of only two companies.
Apple isn't just another company like Steam or Sony. Apple is literally the primary and in many cases sole provider of internet to half of the population and the internet isn't just another service but at this point ranks up there with food, water, and electricity.
Ye
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Monopoly by definition means that it is controlled by only one entity.
If the two were colluding to act as one, I could see your point. But that's not the case here.
In terms of the mobile app market, Google and Apple are *competitors*... plain and simple. I see absolutely no reason that regulations which might ordinarily apply to monopolies should have to apply to either company in this case just because it might somehow be preferable to companies that would prefer to deal with both on the same terms
Re: Oh for fucks sake (Score:1)
omg... (Score:2)
which Facebook suggests hurts small businesses struggling to get by during the pandemic.
Right. A monopolist playing champion for the small guys. That's right out of the "1984 for MBAs and Lawyers" playbook. It's so obvious that I can't believe anyone would fall for that... ... oh... wait... people are also scared of a hypothetical microchip tracking system and think Gates manufactures Corona in his home to take away their guns or whatever...
People will definitely believe that. That's so sad. :-(
Re: omg... (Score:2)
Except it does hurt small business. People do most good for selfish reasons. The truth is small business are helpless against a 2trillion dollar company...and that includes me.
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Except it does hurt small business. People do most good for selfish reasons.
Some old people still say "but Hitler built the Autobahn!". Like your statement, that is true, but it kind of misses the elephant in the room.
If you're a jew and a car owner, you shouldn't be a friend of Hitler because one of his activities is in your favour. Never miss the big picture, that can get you murdered.
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Easy answer: Charge users more for entry to online events on the iOS ecosystem. Show them the prices, and give them the option to launch their web browsers to hit the same screen without the Apple tax. This would promote the appropriate grass-roots outrage. EMPOWER THE USERS TO CHOOSE!
Apple specifically bans this. You can't give them the option to open a web browser to bypass their payment system.
You can't mention price or redirect them outside of the app. This is what fortnite did that got them banned.
This is about iOS 14 (Score:4, Informative)
Personally...good. I want what Apple's doing in forcing things down standardised paths, it's a feature of the platform to me. I understand there are those who don' want that too, and all good - we should all choose a platform that works for what we want. For me, I want this and so I choose this platform.
Before all the "so you want to be overcharged 30%..." stuff kicks in - yes, the service offered is valuable enough to me that I don't necessarily mind 30%. To give concrete examples, unsubscribing from some raw services is made so incredibly inconvenient as to be effectively impossible. Via Apple? I just go to "Manage subscriptions" and turn it off, no shady "only unsubscribe at this phase of the moon, and only be calling this unmanned phone number" rubbish.
Would be fun to see Facebook do an Epic (Score:2)
Would Apple dare to remove Facebook from it's store ? It could be very fun to watch :-) that'd really be shooting oneself in the foot...
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Facebook really wants user info, not a bigger cut. (Score:1)
The real reason that Facebook is facing off against Apple isn't the 30% Apple cut of the profits, but the user info that Apple hides from Facebook. Apple hides more user info from Facebook than most other app stores, harming Facebook's business model. Otherwise, they might as well go after Google as well.
Isn't it ironic (Score:2)