Mercedes-Benz Teases 'Highest-Efficiency Electric Car In the World' With Over 750 Miles of Range (electrek.co) 154
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Electrek: Mercedes-Benz teases a new super-efficient electric car concept, the Vision EQXX, with more than 750 miles of range on a single charge. At Daimler's latest company update, the automaker teased a new technical program to develop "the longest-range and highest-efficiency electric car the world has ever seen." Mercedes-Benz's head of research and development, Markus Schafer, commented: "We have set up a group of our engineers to take on an extraordinary task: to build the longest-range and highest-efficiency electric car the world has ever seen. This is a serious project, chasing next-generation technologies. We intend to incorporate the learning into the next generation of series production cars."
The German automaker said that the electric vehicle should be able to travel from Beijing to Shanghai, a journey that covers about 750 miles (1,200 km), on a single charge. This incredible range will be achieved through efficiency improvements rather than just a bigger battery pack. Daimler noted that the program will be used to test new technologies to improve efficiency and bring those to production cars: "While Vision EQXX is a technology program, it is expected to result in innovations that will quickly make their way into series production cars." They haven't disclosed when they plan to unveil the Vision EQXX electric prototype.
The German automaker said that the electric vehicle should be able to travel from Beijing to Shanghai, a journey that covers about 750 miles (1,200 km), on a single charge. This incredible range will be achieved through efficiency improvements rather than just a bigger battery pack. Daimler noted that the program will be used to test new technologies to improve efficiency and bring those to production cars: "While Vision EQXX is a technology program, it is expected to result in innovations that will quickly make their way into series production cars." They haven't disclosed when they plan to unveil the Vision EQXX electric prototype.
Tesla achieved their mission (Score:3)
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Eh. The country that gave us Einstein. Speak for yourself.
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Re:Tesla achieved their mission (Score:4, Informative)
Daimler employs 300,000 people.
The scientists and engineers in the research divisions of Mercedes-Benz are absolutely top notch, and for extra research they work with academics at all of the best institutions in the world.
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If Mercedes were really that good, they would have created great EVs a decade ago.
Re:Tesla achieved their mission (Score:5, Informative)
Shame on you and whoever upvoted you for such poor reasoning. I miss the days when users of this site were able to think logically.
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And they've stuck their heads in the sand for years if not decades as obviously battery vehicles were the way forward.
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They developed the reluctance engine in the 2000's that is now being built into every Tesla Model 3 and Y.
That was their technical people who knew what to do. Then accounting found out they make less per EV than they do from making gasoline powered cars. So they sat on their technology while Tesla copied it.
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Mercedes is a legacy ICE manufacturer with a massive investment in ICE manufacturing so they wouldn't have really been interested in EVs 10 years ago. This is the problem all ICE manufacturers have in transitioning to EVs.
Re: Tesla achieved their mission (Score:2)
Yeah, and it also gave us Mario Barth and Dieter Bohlen. Two real dumb fucks.
Yes, I am German. We re not in 1910 anymore. All the geniuses moved to the US before the N a z i s took over. (WhY is Slashdot censoring that word lately?) And they are now slowly coming back, with your country going down the drain in a similar manner right now. But not yet.
In any case, Mercedes is not Einstein. They are just a business. Wih all our German flaws, and all the flaws of a for-profit (aka for-ripoff-maximization, cause
Re: Tesla achieved their mission (Score:2)
Gave us Einstein, as in chased him and other brilliant scientists away? Yes.
Mercedes has no clues was pursuing hydrogen. (Score:3, Interesting)
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Hydrogen was just the sop all the CEOs of the companies that didn't give a fuck about BEVs used to pretend like they were caring about something.
They never thought it would work, and they never wanted it to work. But if it distracted, they thought it would be worth it not to have to change ir retool anything.
Way to end up far behind, douches.
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They've just been waiting for consumer demand to catchup before tooling up for production.
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Mercedes Research used to publish a dead-tree magazine about their work back in the '90s, college students could get leftover copies for free so I subscribed. It was interesting to watch the progress of various programs, one of them being a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle. They were also working on self-driving vehicles for several years. At first they estimated that they would be selling both products by 2008, they spent a lot of money and resources to find out that neither product was viable with existing t
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Re: Mercedes has no clues was pursuing hydrogen. (Score:4, Informative)
Everything you just said is total nonsense.
"Heavy" A Model 3 and a BMW M3 weigh the same. A Long Range Model 3 weighs less than a Toyota Mirai.
"Make it stop burning". If a Hydrogen vehicle catches on fire, you don't need to worry, the explosion will be very brief.
"CO2 recycling plants make synthetic gasoline for free." Absolute nonsense. We have nowhere near the amount of renewable electricity that we need. There is no massive surplus of renewable electricity and making/burning synthetic gasoline is so inefficient that we would need like 20x more renewable energy while EVs charge at nearly 1:1 efficiency between production and turning wheels.
EVs are faster, cleaner, more convenient and more reliable than internal combustion engines or hydrogen. Even if there was no environmental interests, a mediocre EV beats a high end sports car in performance. The weight you refer to is distributed amazingly well for high performance driving. The power trains are extremely reliable (half as expensive in maintenance costs according to consumer reports) and if you have a garage or driveway you can refuel your vehicle for pennies at home.
Even if you were right about fire departments and toxic materials (you aren't) consumers are going to flock to EVs once they reach price parity in the next couple years. They're just better in every single way unless you're driving 1,000 miles at a time. In which case in that extremely rare, limited scenario it's easier to still drive an ICE or Hydrogen vehicle (assuming you could find a hydrogen station).
But EV infrastructure is fundamentally a power outlet. That can be a diesel generator, that can be solar, that can be wind, that can be a mountain cabin's bedroom power outlet. There are power outlets everywhere. There is not gas everywhere. Once EVs hit critical mass buying gas will be like on Manhattan where you have to drive an hour round trip to find a gas station. Or you spend 30 seconds and plug into in your garage every night.
But how long does it take to charge from, say, 5%? (Score:2, Offtopic)
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I imagine most trips of that length are planned several days in advance, so that kind of charge time might not be such a big deal. If you're going a thousand miles or more, you probably want to take a plane or a train anyway.
I do wonder if bringing that much excess capacity with you everywhere might not have other implications. Is the battery more explosive? How much extra weight does it add? Will never cycling the battery deeper than 5-10% wear it out prematurely?
Re:But how long does it take to charge from, say, (Score:5, Informative)
They are probably targeting 750 miles on the US EPA test, which is generally pretty accurate for the range you'd get with average driving.
In terms of charging, if we assume this can get 4 miles / kWh (what I get in daily driving in the tiny Bolt hatchback), that suggests a battery pack around 180 kWh... which would be truly massive, dwarfing the Tesla Model S P100D at 100kWh. The real limitation there will be what your charger can do... a level 2, 240V, 30 Amp charger at 7.2 kW will get you topped off in 25 hours. A normal wall outlet usually caps out around 1.5kW, though, so you will be waiting 120 hours there... basically a week.
A DC fast charger can easily exceed 50 kW, though, so at that point you are in the 3 hour range, and there have been rumors of 150kW charging stations in the works, which would get you most of a charge in an hour.
Of course, the assumptions may be off, but probably not too much. Maybe they have figured out something that nobody else in the world has, and will be able to get that range without an absurdly large battery pack, but I doubt it. Easier to just throw money at the problem and mark up the car accordingly, considering they are a luxury manufacturer.
Re:But how long does it take to charge from, say, (Score:5, Insightful)
Current chargers are up to 350kW so probably a 50 minute charge time... But it would need a pretty extreme cooling system.
For most people 750 miles range is pointless, a waste of money. 250 is about the point at which the drive/charge ratio exceeds what most people can comfortably do. And in any case the returns on larger batteries are rapidly diminishing. It's it worth paying thousands, tens of thousands more just to save 30 minutes a year you could have used to get lunch?
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Current chargers are up to 350kW so probably a 50 minute charge time... But it would need a pretty extreme cooling system.
For most people 750 miles range is pointless, a waste of money. 250 is about the point at which the drive/charge ratio exceeds what most people can comfortably do.
While 750 might be pointless, 500 would not be. High speed charging starts to taper off at about 50% capacity and gets really slow as the battery approaches 100% full. With a 500 mile total possible range, you could always get charged up to the 250 mile range sweet spot at the fastest rate the battery can take. A gas car can add 250 miles of range in 5-10 minutes. With a massive battery that gets you where you want to go by only filling it up half way, you could have a high speed charge session that not tha
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Take a car like the Taycan. You can charge to 80% in about 20 minutes. After doing say 200 miles of driving, which on the motorway is about 3 hours assuming no traffic or other delays, a 20 minute break would be welcome for most people.
Better yet you can actually use that time. No need to stand there holding the gas pump, you can go off while the car charges.
Even that is extreme and expensive though. More affordable cars like the Niro will take 45 minutes to charge. You can go faster but is it worth spendin
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If you build a car with 4000 miles range, every cannonball run wannabe would buy one regardless of cost. So there is demand for high range, just not enough to justify mass production. ...
Let's look at a far less exotic case. Lots of people love taking long road trips to unwind. Nothing better for me than 12 hours of driving (ideally without stopping) to clear your head if you are stressed. That's roughly 1000 miles if you are speeding. Once you go at 100 mph, your efficiency drops a lot. If you drive at tha
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Maybe you are very young and fit, or just pee in a bottle... But there is no way I could drive for 12 hours nonstop.
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The real limitation there will be what your charger can do... a level 2, 240V, 30 Amp charger at 7.2 kW will get you topped off in 25 hours. A normal wall outlet usually caps out around 1.5kW, though, so you will be waiting 120 hours there... basically a week.
Another elephant in the room is how much this thing weighs. Don't be surprised if it turns out it can only carry two people and a bit of luggage.
Re:But how long does it take to charge from, say, (Score:4, Informative)
Almost certainly not. European manufacturers almost always quote the WLTP cycle numbers.
Re:But how long does it take to charge from, say, (Score:5, Informative)
Rumors of 150kW chargers? Did you time warp here from 5 years ago?
The vast majority of the Tesla supercharger network is 150kW, with the new Gen3 chargers at 250kW. Many of the SAE standards for fast DC charging are 300+ kW, being deployed presently.
Re: But how long does it take to charge from, say, (Score:2)
Jesus, am I the only one feeling uncomfortable about putting something THAT high-powered in the hands of people wo don't even manage to realize they are not the ones doing the voting?
Re: But how long does it take to charge from, say (Score:3, Insightful)
If that scares you then on't ever calculate the energy contained in a stream of gasoline flowing into an average car.
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Chinese wall outlets likely cap out at around 3kW. They are a 220V country, and that is a typical rating for 220V countries.
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Nah, they just had the typical German diesel pollution team work on the numbers, the first lot came back that they could reach the moon and back but sales thought it was a hard sell, in light of recent Volkswagen and Mercedes engineering marketing lies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com] (those lies were really naughty and this is deserved).
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I'm more interested in "did they achieve this by quadrupling the size of their battery packs, which would also quadruple the cost?"
Very few people care about range above ~300 miles if you have ample quick charging (150kW or more), especially if it means doubling the price of the vehicle.
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drive like a 90 year old granny?
That's fine for them, many won't need the whole 750 miles anyway
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Re: But how long does it take to charge from, say, (Score:2)
Exactly! It should be legally mandated that every EV must be able to drive over a standardized battery replacer, and have the standardized battery package replaced fully automatically in under 30 seconds! At every gas station supporting EVs. Exiting the car should not be necessary.
Fuck "integral part of the chassis"! Just like IE was an "integral part" of the Windows OS/kernel, right? (MS actually argued that in court.)
Guess which market they see growing? (Score:4, Interesting)
The German automaker said that the electric vehicle should be able to travel from Beijing to Shanghai,
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The one that doesn't care about driver fatigue or high road fatality rates.
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I don't see much of a market in China.
Beijing to Shanghai by car takes more than 12 hours. About three times as much as by train. Most of the world outside America and Africa has trains that are much faster than cars at those distances.
Where's the pudding? (Score:3)
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"Downhill."
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With a tail wind...
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Re:Where's the pudding? (Score:4, Interesting)
There's a reason people don't make cars as light as they can, of course. It's easy to build a car that gets 700 miles of range on a 100 kWh battery. You just put a tiny, low-torque motor in the thing, limit its maximum speed to 35 MPH, built it almost entirely out of lightweight plastics/carbon fiber, make it just big enough to hold a single person, and put ultra-low-rolling-resistance tires on it. Whether it will survive the NHTSA crash tests or not is another question.
How do I know this? A typical 48V golf cart uses O(150 – 250) watt-hours per mile. That's up to O(666) miles on a 100 kWh pack when driving on dirt. On a level road, you should be able to hit 700. :-)
I would not want to drive one. I suspect the same will be true of this car....
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There's a reason people don't make cars as light as they can
People do make cars as light as they can. There's just a minimum weight typically set by manufacturing capabilities and the additional safety features required in a modern car which sets them apart from a golf cart.
If it meets the safety standards I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to drive in one. I mean sure tow and storage capacity are a thing, but for a drive / commute you don't necessarily need a tank.
My neighbour's car: https://www.renault.fr/vehicul... [renault.fr]
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Still much faster than a horse over long distances and way less maintenance.
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You can push ICE cars very far (as far as mpg goes) if you are willing to sacrifice practicality and make the car using exotic components not viable in a production car:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
So it is not crazy to wonder how far you can push electrics. But I doubt this will be mass produced and Tesla might get to 700 mile range before this prototype is finished anyways.
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It will be things like reducing the mass of the drivetrain through new designs that use less materials, more efficient batteries that deliver more power per kilogram, reducing friction in the car, new materials and structures that reduce weight in non-drivetrain components such as doors, etc etc. They'll look to go from about 4 to maybe about 6 or 7 mpkwh.
When? (Score:2)
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How much will that matter? You probably won't drive more than about 500 miles without getting out to stretch, and at 60mph * 16 hours = about 1000 miles, you'll need to recharge before the batteries do.
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It's not above the limit in every state. In fact, it's 5 below the limit on many miles of Interstate 80.
Formula One know how (Score:2)
F1 cars have been hybrids since 2014, and Mercedes has won both the Drivers and Constructors championships for the last six years in a row. They do actually know a thing or two about batteries, and very high voltage platforms (close to 1000 volts now). I have no doubt they can play competitively in this new game as well should they choose, and apparently they do.
Funny how that happens (Score:3)
So Tesla opens up a plant in Germany and suddenly the German Old Guard wakes up and get busy.
What would be the odds of this happening had Musk stayed out of Germany.
Re:Funny how that happens (Score:5, Informative)
It was inevitable. Just the fact that Tesla sold 70% as many vehicles in the US as BMW did in 2019 made it inevitable.
And, it's only getting worse for them. [cleantechnica.com]
The tide is shifting and they just realized they are over the sand bar.
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It was inevitable. Just the fact that Tesla sold 70% as many vehicles in the US as BMW did in 2019 made it inevitable.
They did, but they don't seem to be cannibalizing BMW sales to do it. BMW's market share remains pretty constant.
https://carsalesbase.com/us-bm... [carsalesbase.com]
BMW, Mercedes, Audi et al are getting into what is objectively still a small global market for BEVs and planning for it expanding. They want to have an option to offer to people looking for a BMW, Mercedes or Audi and want something electric. That is all, nothing more. They know how big the overlap between those two markets is and will act accordingly in their
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That's what Blackberry and Nokia said of the iPhone for the first couple of years.
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Not sure what your point is, Americans buy American? Heck this past year was the first time Tesla outsold Renault in Europe... specifically for electric cars (the Zoe used to sell more than the Model X and Model S combined, at least until the Model 3 was released.
BMW's sales haven't changed much (beyond COVID crisis), and they also happen to offer a large range of hybrid vehicles as well as several PEVs. The GP's assertion that this is German old guard shitting themselves because of Tesla is simply stupid.
a
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M3 sold 33k across Europe in H1 2020, while the Zoe sold 36k. Both are doing well, and because they're not really competitive with each other, the net effect is growth of the overall EV market. It's all good!
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27,700 Tesla sales in a country with 300,000,000 vehicles and growing at 10,000,000 a year is a drop in the bucket.
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So Tesla opens up a plant in Germany and suddenly the German Old Guard wakes up and get busy.
Correlation does not imply causation. Now EU laws on emissions, ICE cars being increasingly banned from city centres in the future, and the realisation you can't just cheat on diesel emissions, those have a high amount of causation as to the move of the German old guard.
Also speaking of German Old Guard, Daimler is way late to the game here. VW, BMW and Audi have had hybrid and PEVs on offer for years now. Mercedes (specifically it's leadership) is a distinct laggard in Germany.
Production (Score:3, Insightful)
According to Elon Musk, who is credible, building a prototype is easy .. production is hard. Can Mercedes get this thing into production? They haven't even built a prototype yet .. meaning this car won't be around until 2028 or later. Tesla will be even further ahead by then.
Re:Production (Score:4, Insightful)
According to Elon Musk, who is credible, building a prototype is easy .. production is hard. Can Mercedes get this thing into production? They haven't even built a prototype yet .. meaning this car won't be around until 2028 or later. Tesla will be even further ahead by then.
I'm sure production is a lot harder for someone who has never done it before than for someone who has been doing it for over a century.
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According to Elon Musk, who is credible, building a prototype is easy .. production is hard.
That's because Musk is good at prototyping but bad at production. It's not his skillset.
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Which is precisely what "startups" experience. Also exactly the opposite of what companies with 100 yeah production history already know.
Just look at Telsa's Toyota factory effort. Buy the factory, gut the factory, automate the factory, get laughed at by other car companies who said "we tried that in the 80s", revert the automation, staff up, and bam very close to where the original Toyota factory was again.
Tesla is a disruptor, they have growing pains. That makes them very good at prototyping but very poor
Would be a breakthrough, but for long haul vehicle (Score:2)
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Since most passenger cars are used for short distances per day (a very small percentage of people drive more than 100-150 miles a day), this kind of breakthrough will be most useful for long haul vehicles like trucks and buses.
And yes, if you are doing a long distance trip. But likely you will take a ~45 min break, in which you can recharge your car (even partially).
The way to use this tech would be if you need fewer batteries (less weight) to get a 250 mile range in a car, because of improved efficiency.
High capacity batteries also make the experience closer to a current car. If you can be confident your car has enough range that you only need to charge it once every week or two, much like fueling up at a regular gas station, then even the consideration of where you can plug it in fades into the background. Most people will only need one reliable place.
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High capacity batteries also make the experience closer to a current car. If you can be confident your car has enough range that you only need to charge it once every week or two, much like fueling up at a regular gas station, then even the consideration of where you can plug it in fades into the background. Most people will only need one reliable place.
I thought the beauty of an electric car is that it isn't like a current car; you don't have to have the faff of going to charge it once per week, you can ch
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It's the ubiquity and flexibility of electricity that will end up solving the charging issues for many types of use case: the ability for you to charge fast or overnight etc. I have a 250 mile range car (a Zoe) and I charge it at home about once every three weeks, just as you would. If I couldn't charge at home, I'd just charge it at any of the dozens of chargers close by. Because electricity is everywhere, more and more places will fit or retrofit chargers over time.
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If Mercedes succeeds, this would indeed be a breakthrough.
If I'm going on a road trip, I don't want to have to find a restaurant that also has a charging station, because my 250-mile range requires me to charge half way through the day. Being able to wait until night, when I stop at a hotel, would make a huge difference.
A 750 mile range is more than you get with a gasoline car, though that number is likely best-case scenario. For example, in a hot climate, the actual number would be less. Still, it's enough
Where are the modular electric vehicles? (Score:2)
Most of the year, I only need a short range to get around the city, so long as I can easily recharge at home every night.
Or better yet, while at work, from solar panels. 200km would be plenty.
If only there was a modular rear section that could take cargo, extra seating, an extended-range battery, or even a high-efficiency diesel generator to extend range.
You could rent the extended battery for a vacation, and even swap empty for full at a gas station, as is done for propane-cylinders for your barbecue.
I su
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If only there was a modular rear section that could take cargo, extra seating, an extended-range battery, or even a high-efficiency diesel generator to extend range.
But the latter would make it effectively a hybrid, something I think Musk wants to avoid as some matter of principle. OTOH If I was looking for a BEV car I would still consider that a great functional option. Of course I'm far more likely to buy a hybrid anyway so no loss for either of us I suppose.
Batteries... (Score:2)
What is their useful lifetime?
How much do they cost to replace?
How much stuff has to be mined to produce them?
Are they able to be recycled?
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1. Decades. After between 500 and 1500 charge cycles, it's down to about 80%. For a battery with an initial 250 mile range, that means after somewhere between 125k and 375k miles, the range will be down to 200 miles. The average US car is driven 30 miles daily, the average UK car is driven 20 miles. So that would be 200 miles range after 11 years (US) or 17 years (UK) worst case or 34 years (US) or 51 years (UK) best case. And 200 miles is still plenty for many people.
2. They cost a few thousand to replace
Able to travel ONCE. Then the battery degrades. (Score:2)
And in two years, you can't even travel half the distance anymore.
I'm not sorry, but I want a synthetic gasoline fuel cell car and full recycling. Or at least hydrogen, until the former is perfected
More vaporware (Score:2)
But is it practical? (Score:3)
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Re: I felt a great disturbance... (Score:2)
That puts Tesla on a serious clock.
Tesla killer is coming any day now... (Score:3)
Nah, it's just another "Tesla killer" on the horizon. Turns out they never make it to production. :D But I'm sure, any day now, yup...
To add some context to everyone who is responding to the grandparent post:
Whether there will be a Tesla killer is an arguable point, but the *salient* point is whether there will be a Tesla killer in the next two years.
Until that fabled "Tesla killer" is actually for sale, and is seen as more popular than a Tesla, it's not yet time to sell your stock.
And apropos of nothing, several previous "Tesla killers" are already on the scrap heap of history.
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As if Tesla was only about cars and their new battery didn't made a difference.
Hint: When Mercedes uses the new Tesla battery, they could make this thing reach 1000 miles.
And everything is exactly as Elon wants, he wants the world to move into EVs, he only made cars to force the others do them as well, and its working.
Tesla can now replace peak power plants worldwide. Do not underestimate these (cheaper and longer lasting) batteries, or the business they are getting into (the electric grid).
Your mistake is
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Stop and think, with that little battery they just made a bunch of natural gas and other fossil fuel power plants worldwide obsolete.
Where does the energy come from to charge the batteries?
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Except that you can buy a Tesla today. When Mercedes actually puts this super car on the road, let us know. Also, let us know the price. My guess is that Mercedes will still be trying to source batteries when Tesla Berlin and Tesla Austin are at full production.
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Your signature applies perfectly to your shitpost.
There will be a "great disturbance" if Mercedes actually ships it, in quantity, without it costing as much as two Tesla Model S P100D cars, and actually has the mileage spec without a big asterisk next to it, or pending litigation based on it.
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All mileage specs have asterisks next to them - even ICE vehicles. Country, city, etc,etc
And what litigation do you think could happen? The most useful EV patents were created when NASA designed the moon buggy. They've long since expired. And Tesla has opened up all of theirs freely.
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Sure, but they now concentrate on 'luxury cars' they say, which is newspeak for "we can't do it unless we charge 500.000$."
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I'll remember your low value comment you made just now. From this point on nothing you ever say will be taken seriously again, because that's apparently how the world works according to nosp... Jesus, given your username why does your comment look like meaningless spam?
Re: Don't care (Score:2)
It wasn't even ten yeaes ago!!
Are you one of those leaders in Civilization II??
I remember that you could attack and take one of their cities, and then just declare peace again, and they would completely forget it and be nice again. Rinse and repeat until their empire was gone.
I bet you are the type who votes for party A, who lie to you and disappoint you, then yoi choose party B onstead, who lie to you and disappoint you, *and then instead of picking party C, you pick party A again like all their harm never
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Yes, they made a fake electric vehicle once, so it would appear to be more acceptable to people, despite really running on an internal combustion engine.
But, I suspect, unlike you, most people can let go of their grudges after 134 years.
Re: Don't care (Score:2)
WTF, where are all you Mercedes forum troll sock puppets coming from?? Or are you taking scopa?
THEY LIED AND DEFRAUDED EVERYONE! THEY ARE CONVICTED CRIMINALS. THAT IS A FACT. You cannot be so stupid to just axt like they are toootally trustworthy again after less than 10 years! Do you think the entire hierarchy and corporate culture just got replaced?
If yes, then I got this totally nice buddy of mine, Hannibal L., for you, who just got out yesterday, and would like to invite you to dinne and propose a busin
Re: Don't care (Score:2)
*act!
No idea how it became "axe". ... Why do mobile interfaces suck so much?