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Transportation EU Earth Power

Can VW's Electric Cars Compete With Tesla's? (nytimes.com) 221

Posted by EditorDavid from the car-wars dept.
The New York Times reports: Not long ago Volkswagen was a global pariah after pleading guilty to the biggest emissions fraud in automotive history. Now it is the toast of the stock market, with its shares worth twice as much as they were a year ago.

What happened?

Ironically, Volkswagen's misdeeds helped pave the way for its reversal of fortune... The financial commitment Volkswagen made then, when sales of electric vehicles were minimal, is paying off now as the company rolls out a line of vehicles developed from the ground up to run on batteries, with more interior space and more appeal than adaptations of gasoline vehicles... Investors have noticed, lighting up online stock forums with chatter about Volkswagen and rewarding other established carmakers, like General Motors and Ford Motor, that are pivoting to electric propulsion. Shares of Tesla, on the other hand, have slipped. Tesla is still the most valuable car company in the world by a wide margin, but investors are no longer as certain that Tesla will have the fast-growing electric car market to itself...

Volkswagen also benefited from a report issued this month by analysts at UBS, the Swiss bank, which rated it as the traditional carmaker best positioned to compete with Tesla because it already has the ability to mass-produce electric cars economically... With 665,000 employees and sales of 9.3 million vehicles last year, Volkswagen is the second-largest carmaker in the world after Toyota. It can spread the cost of developing new technologies over millions of vehicles and undercut Tesla on price. By 2025, Volkswagen will be able to produce electric vehicles for less than it costs to build a gasoline or diesel car, UBS analysts wrote in this month's report.

They cautioned that Tesla retains a significant lead in battery technology and autonomous driving software.
Sales of electric VW cars tripled last year, to 230,000 vehicles, the article points out — noting that that's just the beginning. This week VW also announced plans to employ 10,000 software engineers to work on new technologies including autonomous driving, becoming the second-biggest software company in all of Europe.

"The diesel scandal remains a financial burden. The company disclosed in its annual report this week that potential liabilities from lawsuits, such as one by shareholders claiming the company misled them, could cost 4.2 billion euros, or $5 billion. That is in addition to the tens of billions of euros Volkswagen has already paid in fines and settlements since 2017 after admitting that it programmed diesel cars to produce lower emissions in testing conditions than in normal use."

But "Investors this week were focusing on Volkswagen's future rather than its past..."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Can VW's Electric Cars Compete With Tesla's? More

Can VW's Electric Cars Compete With Tesla's?

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  • Sure, why not? (Score:3)

    by K. S. Kyosuke ( 729550 ) on Sunday March 21, 2021 @07:47AM (#61181686)
    Just price them $10-15k lower and people will rip your hands off.

    • why not?

      Perhaps because some of us have firsthand experience with how Volkswagen Audi Group in particular - and the Deutsch in general - [doesn't] do automotive electronics??

      • In a nutshell: When Bosch makes AC Delco look like Nippon Denso, something's wrong in Deutschland.

      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by Mr. Dollar Ton ( 5495648 )

        What exactly are you referring to, with specific examples please, otherwise you sound like one of those folks in the late 80s who swore how those Audis they never drove self-pressing their acceleration pedals.

        • Re:Sure, why not? (Score:5, Informative)

          by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Sunday March 21, 2021 @09:19AM (#61181832) Homepage Journal

          All German cars are made out of a ton of Bosch components.

          Bosch has gone into the toilet in the last couple decades.

          They have pathetic problems with stuff like bonding wires to connectors that prove that they are half-assing QA now.

          A lot of stuff that says Bosch on it isn't even made by Bosch any more. e.g. they sold off their 12V starter and alternator business to China, and licensed them the name to go with it. And the QA is even worse than Bosch normally does. If you have a Bosch starter or alternator the only way to get a quality replacement is to have it remanufactured by a reputable shop.

          All over the internets there are repair services for Bosch PCMs and ABS controllers for stupid failures. Correcting Bosch's mistakes is literally an entire industry. I once watched a fairly entertaining video showing how one company did their refurbishments. It was a fairly industrial process which demonstrates that it happens enough that it's worth automating the repairs.

          In short, no German automaker does their own electronics, and the source they all use is now crap.

          • Re:Sure, why not? (Score:4, Interesting)

            by TheGratefulNet ( 143330 ) on Sunday March 21, 2021 @09:39AM (#61181892)

            I see bosch as a software company, now.

            I work in the e-car field and the new smart cars are all about ECUs and a lot of them are planning to migrate from CAN/LIN to ethernet, with pretty advanced features.

            bosch is big into that autosar stuff and that's 100% software (abstraction with message passing and true functional distribution).

            everyone is cheaping out on actual parts cost and manuf, though.

            its up to the car oem to demand their parts suppliers meet their qa. its all in the deal they make. you want better parts, you make a better deal with your suppliers. if you see bad parts, you should KNOW who to blame (its not always the parts guys).

            • Re:Sure, why not? (Score:5, Insightful)

              by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Sunday March 21, 2021 @10:00AM (#61181938) Homepage Journal

              if you see bad parts, you should KNOW who to blame (its not always the parts guys).

              It's a group effort. The supplier says "yeah this is great" and the manufacturer says "sure it must be great and anyway if it fails we'll just blame you" and then they wind up laying a big greasy turd. You can't lay the blame on one or the other, they have to share it. If you have pride you refuse to do the job wrong.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by sphealey ( 2855 )

              - - - - - I see bosch as a software company, now. - - - - -

              Given the diesel emissions cheating scandal I'm not sure that is a recommendation.

          • Mod points, fifty cents! Get your mod points!

            Keep trying, Chinese trolls. You'll never ever hide the fact that your nation gives no fucks about quality assurance, and that manufacturing in China is always a race to the bottom.

            • manufacturing in China is always a race to the bottom.
              Same in many countries.

              Especially if there are no laws to ensure longevity of products, or minimum warranties.

              OTOH: do you really think a Chinese Jet Fighter or transrapid maglev train suffers from poor quality?

              I do no think so.

        • What exactly are you referring to, with specific examples please, otherwise you sound like one of those folks in the late 80s who swore how those Audis they never drove self-pressing their acceleration pedals.

          I'm not seeing how old people stomping on the gas pedal is related to someone complaining about terrible infotainment systems.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Whibla ( 210729 )

          What exactly are you referring to, with specific examples please, otherwise you sound like one of those folks in the late 80s who swore how those Audis they never drove self-pressing their acceleration pedals.

          Personally I loved my old Audi (an A2, bought new in 2001) in every respect except two: Firstly, and trivially, rain used to run into the car if I drove it with the windows open. It was an unfortunate artefact of the aerodynamic styling of the car. I suspect that, with climate control, the designers never envisaged that people might want to drive with the windows open, and it wasn't a big deal. Secondly however, the electrics were ... not durable, and that's the politest way I can phrase it. Central locking

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by amorsen ( 7485 )

            Firstly, and trivially, rain used to run into the car if I drove it with the windows open.

            Err...

            I suspect that, with climate control, the designers never envisaged that people might want to drive with the windows open, and it wasn't a big deal.

            Why would you drive with the windows open in the rain? Why would you need climate control in the rain?

            I am mystified.

            • Depending on time of the year, rainy air smells very good.
              And if it is not to cold to open the windows, why not?

              I think the climate control thing was another issue ... not related to the open windows.

        • To sum up the replies:

          1) OP has gone trolling on greener pastures.

          2) Everyone else's comments are just variations of "i got nuthin but bold claims".

          In other words, the FUD continues.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by fermion ( 181285 )
      VW can succeed because it has a lot of brands at different price points that it can integrate the technology. Audi can compete directly with Tesla. Skoda is sold for USD15K in some markets. Even the 10 Porsche that are sold every year can integrate the technology.

      As far as general components, it is clear how rickety the logistics are. Plants are shutting down around the world because of the recent deep freeze in Texas. No chemicals, no components. Battery metals will replace catalytic converter metals. Th

  • The "diesel fans" in America (Score:5, Insightful)

    by guacamole ( 24270 ) on Sunday March 21, 2021 @07:49AM (#61181688)

    I never understood the near religious obsession a small number of American car enthusiasts had with European diesel cars. A diesel car cost more than its petrol variants, sounded like a tractor, oh and often diesel fuel is more expensive than petrol in America. Combine that with low fuel prices post financial crisis, and that just erases any financial gain from operating a diesel vehicle. While diesel engines develop good torque at lower revs, this advantage is nearly annihilated by the widespread use of turbocharging in petrol engines.

    • Re:The "diesel fans" in America (Score:5, Informative)

      by MemoryDragon ( 544441 ) on Sunday March 21, 2021 @07:55AM (#61181704)

      I live in a european country where diesel is significantly cheaper than petrol, thats the biggest advantage, and that was a huge one, given the gas prices over here.
      But things are becoming slowly electric here anyway, so diesel the same as petrol is on its way out and probably will be phased out entirely ca 2030-2035.

    • Re:The "diesel fans" in America (Score:5, Interesting)

      by LostMyAccount ( 5587552 ) on Sunday March 21, 2021 @08:05AM (#61181722)

      There was a time in the 1980s where diesel was priced less per gallon than gasoline. My understanding now is that the price is at rough parity based on energy content or something, meaning that even if diesel got much better mileage the value proposition has been mitigated by diesel being slightly more expensive per gallon, unless somehow the range between fills matters or diesel still has a value advantage even at a slightly higher per gallon cost.

      I don't know what common diesel car engines are like, but often diesel engines are desirable for their durability vs. gas cars. I've known quite a few people with 200k+ miles on their gas engines, so its not impossible there, but I think it's generally expected from most diesel engines.

      I know that fuel consumption and durability are big reasons marine and industrial engines are diesel.

      I don't think turbocharging gas engines closes the torque gap. Lots of diesel engines are turbocharged, too, and diesel delivers its low end torque early and often without turbo lag.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by burni2 ( 1643061 )

        marine and industrial diesel engines

        Diesel due to it's higher vapour and flash point is much safer than petrol, for fire and explosion.

        easier systems
        Basically a non-commonrail diesel engine (where the injection pump is shaft driven) will when it's started just run and will only stop when it is out of fuel or out of air.

        Petrol cars need high voltage and high voltage distributed timing to keep running..

        higher energy content per volume
        less volume used

        • Sure, but basically all diesels are now HPCR. Maybe not in container ships, but certainly in pass vehicles, pickups, semi trucks... You know, what we're talking about here.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by burni2 ( 1643061 )

            First
            Man when you would know what I know about Common-Rail diesel engines.

            Second: Hint
            read the post from "LostmyAccount" which I replied to and please read it thoroughly.

            "I know that fuel consumption and durability are big reasons marine and industrial engines are diesel."

            read my post and please read it thoroughly.

            "marine and industrial diesel engines .."

            And an industrial diesel engine used to power an industrial backup generator, started by a rotating mass will just start up, when it has fuel and air and n

      • I don't think turbocharging gas engines closes the torque gap. Lots of diesel engines are turbocharged, too, and diesel delivers its low end torque early and often without turbo lag.

        What closes the torque gap is improved turbocharging, especially but not limited to VGTs (variable geometry turbos.) Whether it's a VNT (variable nozzle turbo) or a VVT (variable vane turbo) or even just a dual-scroll turbo, they cut turbo spool times down to essentially nothing. Diesels still spool slightly faster due to a larger volume of exhaust gases, but the difference is now negligible, with many gassers delivering peak torque from a mere 1400 RPM or so. Given that they also have lighter flywheels and

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by burni2 ( 1643061 )

      1.) "in US diesel is more expensive than petrol"
      By how much?

      2.) cars with a diesel engine have a higher "real" mileage (per Liter),
      even exceeding the high amount of energy per Liter.

      - higher energy content per Liter
      - higher fuel economy (not efficiency -> you will not use your cars engine at its peak efficiency, unless on a race track)

      a pedal push will "punish" your budget less than in a petrol car
      despite any NEDC/WLTC bullshit, I just mean real driving.

      Driving higher speed diesel cars will also not puni

    • Based on data from here: https://de.globalpetrolprices.... [globalpetrolprices.com]

      Diesel is just a bit cheaper than petrol.

    • The appeal is probably lower fuel prices and better efficiency and resultign fuel economy, without any of the scary hybrid stuff.

      In reality this only really makes sense if you're a travelling salesman or something, because the cars are more expensive to buy and maintain. But many are still convinced that their TDI Golfs are the second coming of Christ.

      Most actual car nerds don't wan't anythign to do with diesels though because they sound terrible, have a limited power band and run out of steam at higher rpm

    • I never understood the near religious obsession a small number of American car enthusiasts had with European diesel cars.

      Have you compared them to American diesel cars, which during the heyday of European diesels were absolute fucking dogshit?

      A diesel car cost more than its petrol variants, sounded like a tractor, oh and often diesel fuel is more expensive than petrol in America.

      In the eighties diesel fuel cost much less; this was when we had a broad variety of diesels.

      In the nineties diesels got dramatically better mileage than gassers. Even if you paid 20% more for fuel, getting literally 100% better mileage made it well worth it.

      While diesel engines develop good torque at lower revs, this advantage is nearly annihilated by the widespread use of turbocharging in petrol engines.

      Turbocharged petrol engines were extremely scarce until very recently, and came with a massive price premium.

      Complaining about diese

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Sique ( 173459 )
      You never had one. That's why.

      Otherwise you would marvel at the fuel economy, at the power at low revs, and at the acceleration. I've driven Diesel cars for the last 20 years, and whenever I get a gas car, I get it stalling, because I am not used to the low torque, and the high revs necessary. And it's expensive to run, because it has only about two thirds of the mileage.

      • GP definitely speaks from a position of ignorance, but you should be aware that modern turbo gassers have the same kind of low-end torque. It may not come on QUITE as low, but they usually have more horsepower in the high end, and they often have a basically flat torque curve from about 1400 RPM, and they get to that speed very rapidly.

        On the other hand, diesels still get better mileage, because you can run them hot and lean all the time. This results in NOx production, but SCR+DEF solves that problem all b

    • I never understood the near religious obsession a small number of American car enthusiasts had with European diesel cars. A diesel car cost more than its petrol variants, sounded like a tractor, oh and often diesel fuel is more expensive than petrol in America. Combine that with low fuel prices post financial crisis, and that just erases any financial gain from operating a diesel vehicle. While diesel engines develop good torque at lower revs, this advantage is nearly annihilated by the widespread use of turbocharging in petrol engines.

      The much better mileage totally makes up for the added expense of the fuel and the def required (in newer diesels). But don't forget that it's really nice to have a vehicle with 100 - 200 miles more range.
      OTOH, like a hybrid car the added cost of the drivetrain will probably never pay for itself.

    • I used to own a VW diesel - for ten years. When I got it, diesel was much cheaper than even the cheapest gasoline (87 octane unleaded). At that time, it was much cheaper to run the diesel than a gasser. Once the US government mandated the use of low sulphur diesel, the price of diesel became as expensive as the highest grade of gasoline (unleaded premium - 93 octane) and the cost advantage became a liability even considering the increased milage given by a diesel engine. The sound depended on the quality o

    • In a nutshell, diesels were known for extreme durability great torque and better gas mileage. Back in the 80s or 90s that was more true than it is today. Diesels can still run for a long time but the maintenance costs can be high, particularly for the newer ones. The mileage gap has pretty much been closed when you compare the higher fuel cost of diesel.

      The main remaining clear advantage is torque and towing capacity. If you have a big boat or trailer to tow you definitely want a diesel truck. Once electric

    • I never understood the near religious obsession a small number of American car enthusiasts had with European diesel cars. A diesel car cost more than its petrol variants, sounded like a tractor, oh and often diesel fuel is more expensive than petrol in America.

      As many have written, you're thinking diesel from the '70s.

      I owned a 2012 diesel Passat and it was a dream. It sounded and drove like any other car: if you didn't see the TDi logo, you wouldn't know it was diesel. The only real difference was 50-ish MPG on a tank of fuel. When I bought it during a model year end closeout sale, there was no diesel premium. Gas and diesel were the same price.

      I sadly sold it back to VW after Dieselgate. A month later they announced a software fix. I'm still wistful about it. I

  • Betteridge says: No (Score:5, Interesting)

    by twms2h ( 473383 ) on Sunday March 21, 2021 @07:53AM (#61181696) Homepage

    Betteridge says "No", but for once I am convinced otherwise.
    Volkswagen will survive as the only German car maker outside the luxury segment (actually it already is the only one). What we need are not luxury cars but a car to get around. And that's what Volkswagen is about.
    Their main competition is not Tesla but other car makers that now start into electric cars, like Renault (see the latest Dacia electric and the ZOE) and several Japanese companies. And don't forget the Chinese.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      VW are mid priced cars. Not cheap but not luxury.

      The ID.3 for example is a great EV. Costs half as much as a Tesla in Europe, but had similar range. It's well made, comfortable and practical, looks okay and is reasonably quick. VW are part of the partnership behind the Europe side Ionity charging network.

  • The real question, if you want to talk about large scale electrification of automobility, is if they can compete with companies like Minghong Vehicle.
    I know western car manufacturers want to build ever larger, heavier and more expensive cars, but that's nothing that can be even remotely sustainable. Eventually this will cause them to fail as fewer and fewer people can afford those cars or fit them into their garages.

    • Re:That's not the question that should be asked (Score:5, Interesting)

      by guacamole ( 24270 ) on Sunday March 21, 2021 @08:10AM (#61181726)

      In America, it's all driven by low fuel prices, low taxation, and short term thinking. It's horrifying, but in a small town america it's now a norm to own for personal use a crew cab pickup truck with hood at 5 ft from the ground. I am 6ft tall, and the latest GM pickups have their hood at the level of my chin. The average selling price of a pickup truck in America is over 50 grand. This means that some people, many people, are buying pickups for 60-70 thousand dollars. This is insane.

      • It's driven by the loophole in CAFE that lets trucks get away with lower mileage but holds stationwagons to higher standards.
        Back in the day, you could buy a wagon with the same wheelbase as a Chevy Suburban and carry full sized pieces of drywall or plywood or 10 foot lumber in the back with the seats down in a vehicle that wasn't as high as an elephant's eye and got 20 mpg.

        Today, your only option is a truck or minivan or a big SUV that is a foot and a half taller, almost ton heavier, and gets marginally wo

        • Back in the day, you could buy a wagon with the same wheelbase as a Chevy Suburban and carry full sized pieces of drywall or plywood or 10 foot lumber in the back with the seats down in a vehicle that wasn't as high as an elephant's eye and got 20 mpg.

          The modern American station wagon is the Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid minivan. 32 miles of pure electric range, 140.5 cu. ft. of cargo with all the rear seats folded down, and enough room to carry a full 4x8 sheet of plywood (or a small stack thereof.) Using a transverse motor means a cab-forward design like a minivan and not a sta-wag, but it's a surprisingly low-roofed vehicle for what it is, and it gets 30 MPG after you run out of electric range (at 82 MPGe.) It won't carry 4x10 sheets with the hatch closed, but then a pickup won't carry them with the tailgate up either.

          I'm not a big fan of FCA, but at least someone is providing a vehicle that does all the stuff you say nobody is doing outside of pickups any more. It may be a "minivan" but it's actually smaller than one of those gigantic land yacht station wagons of yesteryear that could carry lumber. And those haven't been able to get 20 MPG since the smog stuff came in during the seventies.

          FWIW, besides my '06 F150 (which is all the things you abhor) we also have a '06 Sprinter 2500 super high roof which gets, no joke, 26 MPG on the freeway when not even trying to be economical, just not driving like a dickhead. That's approximately the same real-world mileage as my outgoing 1982 300SD, because technology.

        • It's driven by the loophole in CAFE that lets trucks get away with lower mileage but holds stationwagons to higher standards.

          There's more. The US has tariffs on light trucks imported from Europe (a relic of a trade war over chicken in the 70's, I think). That makes pickups and SUVs extra profitable so the manufacturers push to sell lots of them.

    • Re:That's not the question that should be asked (Score:4, Insightful)

      by jiriw ( 444695 ) on Sunday March 21, 2021 @08:22AM (#61181740) Homepage

      western car manufacturers

      I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'western' at this point. The European car market definitely can't be compared to the American obsession with SUVs. Sure, there is a niche market for truck-like vehicles, but as a continent with a much higher population density and less 'wild area', the need in classic use cases for SUVs is much smaller. Also, smaller streets or even outright car-discouragement in many larger and smaller cities (due to historical and political reasons) make SUVs a lot less practical as an 'every day' vehicle, not to mention the based on weight progressive taxation systems and pricey fuel. This all leads to more demand on the lean and small side... not on the larger, heavier and more expensive side. And Europen car manufacturers (and also Asian ones) tend to deliver at that front.

    • Because almost none of their cheaper models are made in Germany, VW can compete with the Chinese. It's my understanding they've been manufacturing in China for years and are the most popular brand of cars there. Most of the models sold in the US are made in Mexico. They've got the cheap labor market covered. When better electric cars are made, the Germans will build them. Or at least engineer them.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Teun ( 17872 )
        Volkswagen manufactures it's cheaper brands in places like Spain and the Czech Republic.
        They do sell some pick-up's that are rebadged and made in the Far East but in Europe there is hardly a market for such vehicles.

        Historically cars have been taxed based on weight and/or engine size and these days it's in more and more countries based on CO2 emissions.
        And then there is the price of fuel, in the more developed EU countries around half the price is made up of tax.

        Many manufacturers have given up on imp

  • Sell your Tesla stock? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by burni2 ( 1643061 ) on Sunday March 21, 2021 @08:46AM (#61181772)

    Think about this:
    VW was shaken up and many other car manufacturers are waking up.

    Now you have Tesla that has certain well developed features like "semi-autonomous driving" and very good BMS and Batteries, but you are up against giants that woke up and that dump insane amounts of money into the newly developing markets and they still have a working horse (the combustion engine and hybrids), those are also starting to make features like "semi-autonomous driving".

    But now there comes the next question how many people are buying a Tesla because of the "Autopilot"? (most want to buy an electric car and take this feature as an extra)

    Even Ford has understood that the tides are changing towards electric cars and has licensed the modular electric platform (MEB) which is the basis for the ID.3.

    Today Tesla's stock is still good, but is has lost much since February and the sleepers are awaking.

    We will see again that the revolution will eat its "only child" .. the car making of Tesla .. Tesla will most likely exist as a battery producer and technology company.

    Disclaimer
    I don't own Tesla, nor VW, nor any other car stock.

    • But now there comes the next question how many people are buying a Tesla because of the "Autopilot"? (most want to buy an electric car and take this feature as an extra)

      I think it's a combination of factors [caranddriver.com], though I do suspect that the promise of full self-driving is one of the primary ones. Another one is that Tesla is perceived as being both cool and forward-looking, while historic megacorporations VW, GM, etc. are seen as old school, stuck in the past. VW is "known" in America as the last company that clung to diesels, and then had to cheat to get them into the market. Mercedes is still making diesels, and also cheated on emissions testing [forbes.com], but VW has all the brand rec

      • Re:Sell your Tesla stock? (Score:4, Interesting)

        by TheGratefulNet ( 143330 ) on Sunday March 21, 2021 @10:00AM (#61181940)

        On the practical side, however, Tesla has an unmatched fast charging network in the USA.

        oh, I forgot to mention that. the supercharger network IS one of the huge reasons to go tesla. there are at least 3 near me in less than 3mi radius. at peak, you can be in a queue (actual physical line of cars waiting for the next stall to open up). people sit in their stalls (their cars do, they often do, too) for 15mins to a full hour. but I've never sat in the queue more than 15 mins or so. and that was rare.

        most people do home charging. I cant for various reasons. I used to get free work-charging at level-2 speeds. we have 2 hour slots at work and a whole list mgmt system that works pretty well. you move your car when your time if up or over and you have enough to get home when your day is over, or you even did a full week's charge in that 2 hour slot and you dont need any more slots that week. very nice. all free (bay area is like that a lot, for benefits). you also get parking close to the main building, many times.

        I can only supercharge right now (WFH still in effect). but I got 2 years of free SC, and so it costs me time but no money.

        when I was driving gas cars, my gas station bill was well over $300/mo. so, for 2 years, at least, I could consider that to be 300*24=$7200 worth of 'free gas'. and while leaving the car at the charging stall for 1/2 hour or so is not something I love, there's no gas smell, no noise, people just park their cars and its quiet and peaceful. its not that bad - and you have that stupid LCD touch panel there to watch movies or whatever. yes, people often just stream some entertainment while sitting there in charge mode.

        if your battery is not very full and you pre-warm the battery before you SC, your charge rate can be 350 'miles per hour' charge rate (I forget the kw conversion factor). I can watch the battery add 'miles' in realtime via the main display. if I get enough charge and I need to go, I can stop at any point. or, go for a coffee and get an app 'ping' when you have 5 minutes left (start walking back to the car).

        yes, the SC network is a huge draw. elon WAS smart about that. without it, tesla would not be the company they are. and no one else really has anything like that SC network.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Octorian ( 14086 )

        On the practical side, however, Tesla has an unmatched fast charging network in the USA. In a large nation filled with people with range anxiety, this has been a massive selling point.

        IMHO, this is one of Tesla's biggest market advantages, if it its biggest. Its also something nearly all of its competitors are somehow completely oblivious to. (Or something they think they can "solve" with press releases about handshakes and friendly agreements with various 3rd parties they think will solve the problem for them.)

        In Europe, I can see there being enough of a government/public push to solve the problem in a way that's independent of the car manufacturer having to take the initiative. Heck, i

        • I think it's their worst advantage, it's only a win in the early days. Kind of like standard oil. There are multiple projects like https://www.prnewswire.com/new... [prnewswire.com] where private ventures are gearing up for vendor agnostic charging stations throughout the US. They stand to make a ton of money.

          Tesla has a choice, do they have a proprietary charging platform in which case they're competing with the rest of the market in 5-10 years or do they have an open charging platform in which case they have no ma

        • I live a few kilometers from the VW factory where electric cars are made. However, I recently bought a petrol Kia, because there are are almost no chargers for electric cars in most of Europe.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by amorsen ( 7485 )

          In Europe, I can see there being enough of a government/public push to solve the problem in a way that's independent of the car manufacturer having to take the initiative. Heck, it may already be happening there. In the US, not so much.

          The reality is that in Europe you are tied to a proprietary charging network anyway. You cannot just drive your VW up to a charging station and flash your credit card at it. You need to be a member of whichever club owns that particular charging station, otherwise no dice.

          Some you can sign up to immediately, by installing an app and creating an account (by the time that's done, a petrol car would already be on its merry way). Many then charge you outrageous prices that make driving electric more expensive t

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by burni2 ( 1643061 )

        You are correct, I forgot to at least mention the charger network, which really was the major problem with electric car adoption.

        But here in Europe I see more and more charging stations (also DC-quick chargers) being erected, the other car makers also "identified" that problem .. ok lets just call it copied .. from Tesla.

    • But now there comes the next question how many people are buying a Tesla because of the "Autopilot"? (most want to buy an electric car and take this feature as an extra)

      I bought my first/only tesla (model 3, mostly base pkg) to do what is called 'eating your own dogfood' (except I dont work for tesla, I work for a competitor of sorts).

      the autonomous features (semi, as they may be) are quite useful and for me, living with it every day is informative and you can't really understand these cars unless you live

    • What a lot of the investors in TSLA don't seem to understand is that the current stock price is the proper price *if* they dominate the EV market, the self driving market and the battery market. If all those things come to pass then sure, it's worth 500, 1000 or maybe even 1500/share. On the other hand if it's just one of 10 car manufacturers who make self driving EV vehicles in 10 years then it's stock is worth a fraction of its current value.

      There's a reason VW price doubled this year and Tesla halved.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by hawk ( 1151 )

        >the current stock price is the proper price *if* they dominate the EV
        >market, the self driving market and the battery market.

        This.

        I've spent time thinking of this as an economist, and in light of the dot bomb bubble.

        A huge PE ratio is *not* necessarily irrational in a new market category, even for a company that doesn't have a product.

        That price reflects the bet that *this* company will become the amazon of its category.

        It's not even necessarily a bubble--it's only a bubble when the sum of the valuat

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by amorsen ( 7485 )

      Now you have Tesla that has certain well developed features like "semi-autonomous driving" and very good BMS and Batteries, but you are up against giants that woke up and that dump insane amounts of money into the newly developing markets and they still have a working horse (the combustion engine and hybrids), those are also starting to make features like "semi-autonomous driving".

      I remember the Palm PIlot vs Windows CE war. Microsoft spent ridiculous amounts of money and still lost.

      Then Apple came along with the iPhone. Again, Microsoft spent ridiculous amounts of money and still lost.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by burni2 ( 1643061 )

        - I remember Palm, but is it anywhere around? Except at 6 o'clock when I kill the alarm clock as which my Treo 650 still works reliably being recharged every 40-50 days or so (yes without GSM active and being used as an alarm clock this is the battery life)

        - is the i(Phone)OS the leading smartphone OS?

        And btw. Microsoft was just not cool enough .. however cars are a bit different.

  • VW was going to be charged MASSIVE fines for their criminal actions. It was Elon musk that pushed instead that fines be lowered, and used by states/feds for EV infrastructure. BUT most importantly, he pushed that VW be required to build out a charging network, which in America, we know as 'electrify America'. To be fair, EA, is currently crap. The outages they have is enormous. Most locations have 2-4 stations, of which 1 to all 4 will be out. However, at some point, EA will have enough traffic that they wi

  • Quality (Score:3, Interesting)

    by fishthegeek ( 943099 ) on Sunday March 21, 2021 @08:53AM (#61181784) Journal
    VW is probably the point of the spear that is about to go through Tesla's chest: Quality - https://www.nbcnews.com/busine... [nbcnews.com] Price - https://www.businessinsider.co... [businessinsider.com] Leadership - Musk is a very lucky troll. Profitability = https://www.msn.com/en-us/mone... [msn.com]

    • VW is probably the point of the spear that is about to go through Tesla's chest: Quality

      Putting "quality" in the same sentence as "VW" or indeed any German manufacturer without "has slipped since the 1980s" is a bit of a faux pas. German cars haven't been overbuilt since then. Back then they were much more reliable than the competition. These days, not so much.

      • Ugh... VW was NEVER reliable cars. One had to work on your VW car every Friday (carrying on into Saturday), then you can go to the beach on Sunday and by Wednesday it would be spluttering again.

  • Not just a car company! (Score:5, Informative)

    by EagleRider70 ( 3847037 ) on Sunday March 21, 2021 @08:58AM (#61181794)
    Tesla isn't just a a car company. They have an energy business as well. In fact their energy business is growing faster than their automotive business. Also, they are innovating in ways as a automotive company that the automotive business hasn't seen in a long time.

  • "from the ground up to run on batteries, with more interior space and more appeal than adaptations of gasoline vehicles..."
    Where? Which one? E-golf or e-up?

    • "from the ground up to run on batteries, with more interior space and more appeal than adaptations of gasoline vehicles..." Where? Which one? E-golf or e-up?

      Both of those, obviously. Even vehicles with pretty decent electric range like the Chevrolet Bolt are not on platforms designed for EV from day one, but were adapted.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by teg ( 97890 )

      "from the ground up to run on batteries, with more interior space and more appeal than adaptations of gasoline vehicles..." Where? Which one? E-golf or e-up?

      Their newer range - ID3, ID4, e-Buzz, Enyaq (on their Skoda brand) etc. E-Golf, e-Up and e-Polo were adapted cars.

  • The Tesla killer (Score:3)

    by OneHundredAndTen ( 1523865 ) on Sunday March 21, 2021 @09:06AM (#61181806)
    Five years ago, VW was the Tesla killer. I suspect that, in 2026, VW will still be the Tesla killer.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by teg ( 97890 )

      Five years ago, VW was the Tesla killer. I suspect that, in 2026, VW will still be the Tesla killer.

      They have overtaken Tesla with the most sold EV in Norway - the world's most advanced EV market. The Audi e-tron didn't just beat Tesla's models, but was the best selling car overall. The total EV share for 2020 was 54 % [theguardian.com].

      • They have overtaken Tesla with the most sold EV in Norway - the world's most advanced EV market.

        Norway is the 44th largest market in the world. Its 142,381 annual sales (2019 statistic) are less than one percent of the sales in the largest market, China. China is unquestionably the world's most advanced EV market, in that they have both the most advanced EVs for sale (the same ones you can buy anywhere else), and also the most EVs sold (including a lot of EVs you can't buy anywhere else.)

        • Norway is the 44th largest market in the world. Its 142,381 annual sales (2019 statistic) are less than one percent of the sales in the largest market, China. China is unquestionably the world's most advanced EV market, in that they have both the most advanced EVs for sale (the same ones you can buy anywhere else), and also the most EVs sold (including a lot of EVs you can't buy anywhere else.)

          China has the most EVs sold because they have a billion people. As the OP said, over 50% of cars sold in Norway are EVs, what this means is that most normal people are buying them for their normal usage already. In China, they could sell a million Teslas but all would be the 5th toy car of the factory owners, etc.

      • Err... All of Norway is like one midsize US city - about 5 million souls.

  • VW is doing very well in advanced EV markets (Score:3)

    by teg ( 97890 ) on Sunday March 21, 2021 @09:23AM (#61181838)

    Volkswagen as a group is positioned to do very well. They've already compete very well with Tesla and had the best selling EV [e24.no] (and best selling car overall) in the world's most developed EV market - Norway.

    It's easy to forget that VW is huge - and they've launched electric vehicles across all their brands: Audi E-tron, Porsche Taycan, Skoda Enyaq, Seat Mii - in addition to e-Golf (replaced by ID3), e-Up, e-Polo, ID3, ID4 and e-Crafter on the VW brand. They have more coming as well.

    WTH is up with Slashdot and "Filter error: Looks like ascii art"? Looks like using using slash separators triggers it.

    • WTH is up with Slashdot and "Filter error: Looks like ascii art"? Looks like using using slash separators triggers it.

      One part laziness, one part incompetence. Slashdot is still using simple rules-based detection of ASCII art when superior methods exist [dmv.nico]. And they have utterly failed to do any testing to ensure that high-quality comments can make it past the filter. For example this comment [pastebin.com] failed to make it through. aachan seems to successfully determine that it is text, although it does think one HTML tag looks ascii-art-ish. If you used it as the basis of a scoring system for detecting ascii art comments it would certain

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

      To be fair, car model names do kind of look like ASCII art. Or maybe Perl code.

  • Once the traditional auto makers are full in on EVs I think Tesla's days are numbered. They have QA issues that are well documented, and a celebrity CEO who is a bit of a loose cannon. Right now, I would choose the Mach E over anything Tesla makes, despite the lower range. I would rather deal with car companies that are more experienced in customer support and that do not only focus on the upper 1% of the population.

  • Depends entirely on the charging infrastructure.

    One of the things Tesla does is maintain their own charging network that only Tesla cars can use as it uses a Tesla-specific plug. (This isn't really Tesla's fault - there was no charging standard so they had to roll their own. Even today, there's still no real charging standard, as the US and Europe are standardizing on different systems.)

    VW is also building out a charging network, at least in the US. (They own Electrify America, which is an EV charging netwo

  • First, because it would violate Betteridge's law of headlines.

    Second, they are a bunch of condemned fraudsters.

    Third, the car needs 7 or 8 chips (instead of 1 special one that Tesla produces for itself) and they can't get them at the moment.

    Fourth, if you want the big battery, you lose a seat.

    Fifth, It's slow as hell.

    Sixth, the software sucks a lot, they still need their 2500 programmers to work for years.

  • Tesla will go to second place... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by mysticgoat ( 582871 ) on Sunday March 21, 2021 @10:20AM (#61181996) Homepage Journal

    VW has already captured a huge mind-share with the electric microbus. It won't be on the market for a couple of years but it is already the new darling of middle class USA suburbia.

    But the real deal that will propel VW to new heights has not yet been announced, but is clearly inevitable: the Lightning Bug.

  • They should be selling these cars with a full array of ADAS sensors. They can always update the CPU and software later. They canâ(TM)t be cool if they canâ(TM)t save lives by automatic accident avoidance. Close to one million people die worldwide in traffic accidents every year. Nearly 40,000 people (pedestrians, passengers, and drivers) died in US traffic accidents mostly due to distracted or careless driving. The car should be able to intervene when someone is about to run a red light or a pedes

    • Err... new VW and even cheapy cars like Kia, have features like lane holding and emergency braking nowadays.
  • Tesla is very vertically integrated with regards to batteries. That gives them the advantage. VW is buying batteries from tier 1 suppliers at the moment, and they have to compete with every other manufacturer for a limited supply. Unless VW starts making their own batteries, they can't compete.

  • The competition can build cars comparable to, even more luxurious than, or cheaper than Tesla. They're going to have a devil of a time matching the Tesla charging network.

    If you only use your car as a commuter, this is not much of an issue; but people are used to having the freedom to take off whenever, e.g., put the skis on the roof and head on up to the slopes directly from work on a Friday.

    Right now, Tesla has a huge lead on this and it's asymmetrical. Teslas can charge at 3rd party chargers, but other

  • probably the single most enduring success of Hitler's Germany.

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