How Tesla's Bizarre Swipe-To-Drive Gear Selector Works (theverge.com) 215
Tesla's touchscreen-based gear-selector system, which is debuting on the updated Model S and Model X vehicles, has been revealed today. The Verge explains how it works: Tesla decided to remove the gear-selector stalk from the steering wheel and is going to try to automate shifting between park, reverse, neutral, and drive (PRND). The company said there would be an option on the touchscreen as a backup, but it wasn't until today that we had a sense of exactly what that looks like. Instead of touchscreen "buttons" for each drive mode, drivers will have to tap-and-drag on a small car icon on the top-left corner of the new horizontal touchscreen. (In fact, that car icon was visible in the photos Tesla released for the refreshed Model S and Model X, though it wasn't clear what it was for.) Drag up to put the car into drive, drag down to put the car in reverse.
Neutral is buried in a deeper menu, though it's still unclear how you put the car into park. Perhaps since Teslas can operate without the slow "creep" of internal combustion cars (though there is an option to turn that on), you will be able to just stop the car with your brake pedal and it will stand still, maybe even switch into park when you get out. Now, according to Elon Musk, this is all just a backup to the car automatically switching gears for you. "Car guesses drive direction based on what obstacles it sees, context & nav map," Musk tweeted back in January. "After you drive without using a PRND stalk/stick for a few days, it gets very annoying to go back & use a shifter! You can override on touchscreen."
Neutral is buried in a deeper menu, though it's still unclear how you put the car into park. Perhaps since Teslas can operate without the slow "creep" of internal combustion cars (though there is an option to turn that on), you will be able to just stop the car with your brake pedal and it will stand still, maybe even switch into park when you get out. Now, according to Elon Musk, this is all just a backup to the car automatically switching gears for you. "Car guesses drive direction based on what obstacles it sees, context & nav map," Musk tweeted back in January. "After you drive without using a PRND stalk/stick for a few days, it gets very annoying to go back & use a shifter! You can override on touchscreen."
Short, short... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Short, short... (Score:5, Informative)
It actually sounds very dangerous. One of the most common mistakes people make with systems like this is "mode confusion", e.g. they expect the car to be in forward gear but for some reason it selected reverse and they didn't notice, so end up backing into something or someone.
The obsession with removing physical controls is stupid. They work great and give the driver both control and mode information.
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It actually sounds very dangerous. ... they didn't notice, so end up backing into something or someone.
If only a car could have sensors that stop it driving into other things.
Oh, wait...
Re: Short, short... (Score:2)
If only Tesla's sensors never malfunctioned.
Oh no, don't wait.
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If only Tesla's sensors never malfunctioned.
Oh no, don't wait.
Your point?
The Internet is full of meatsack drivers going backwards into things when they should be going forwards, and vice versa.
Tesla doesn't have to be perfect, it only has to be better than the meatsacks.
Re:Short, short... (Score:4, Insightful)
The more complex, the greater the breakdown rate, inescapable fact of life. In the end the degree of complexity will kill the resale of old Tesla (so much to break down on them and second hand at the end of lease, to much ready to breakdown).
KISS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org], always lean to that rule or perish as a result of unnecessary complexity. Every automated feature, needs separate circuits, electric motors, solenoids, wiring, to be maintained and to be replaced when necessary.
Tesla are already suffering a reputation of over complexity, adding to it will harm sales. Turn lock, open door, sit in seat, turn lock to start motor, done, a system that works and very reliable, system fully functional many decades latter on most vehicles. Tesla are beggining to sound like a maintanance nightmare. Tesla needs to do a back to basics model, get in drive, very little automated.
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If only they worked reliably.
Re:Short, short... (Score:4, Insightful)
Being that even with physical stocks or levers people make a lot of mistakes. Most don't cause problems, because most drivers will hit the break a split second after the car drives in an unexpected direction.
Besides that there are a bunch of sensors that our normal car doesn't have so it would stop itself if you did decide to go crazy more often than not.
We have cars with Park, Reverse, Neutral, Drive, L2, L1. You got Manual Transmission where you have 1st, 2nt, 3rd, 4th, 5th, Reverse and Neutral. The existing Tesla Stock doesn't click into position, you press up to go in reverse press down to drive, it is basically a left and right mouse button. Even Some Prius that I had driven, when I shift gears the Gear stick goes back to the center.
If you have a history of driving different types of cars, having the direction on a touch screen isn't a big deal at all. In reality it is often a really silly throwback design (Where you needed a large gear stick, to physically move gears) decision for most modern cars to have a such a predominate piece of equipment that you really only use a few times from car start to power off. Power On, Reverse, Drive, An hour later, Reverse, Drive, Reverse Park, During this time the often smaller controls that are sometimes places in odd spots are used more often. Wipers, Lights, Blinkers, Emergency Flashers...
This is really more of a case it is new, so for some people it seems Scary, while in reality it isn't that big of a deal, if you keep your mind open to learning something different. As well with extra sensors and safety features it is overall much better than before.
It is like those people who complain about LED Traffic Lights, Just because they cannot melt the snow on their own, they are just rejected, and then when they put small heating elements on them, they complain about the price, where in reality they are saving much more money with them even with heating elements. They are so fixated on all the minor problems vs the major benefits that they just turn their mind off.
Car automatically guesses direction to drive... (Score:4, Insightful)
Now, according to Elon Musk, this is all just a backup to the car automatically switching gears for you. "Car guesses drive direction based on what obstacles it sees, context & nav map," Musk tweeted back in January.
What could go wrong ... ?
(Have fun trying to back into your garage.)
Three point turns (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re: Three point turns (Score:3)
Re: Three point turns (Score:2)
Strange.
I was taught to avoid turning the wheels while stopped, but when doing a 3 point turn I don't start turning the other direction until I'm reversing. Turning it the other way while going forward seems super annoying.
Re: Three point turns (Score:3)
You donâ(TM)t want to turn the wheels without moving the car because you are just needlessly eating the tread of your tires. The S turn the other way is to give you maximum turning radius while backing up. Your car will turn more while going backwards than going forwards. Combine with what op said and now you understand you (1) save the tread of your tires and (b) get maximum turn efficiency.
You donâ(TM)t need to be moving fast, you just need to be moving so as the tire turns horizontally a new
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Probably too old to break the habit of turning the wheel while backing up, but that makes sense.
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Real men just cut hard and yank the emergency brake :-)
Re:Three point turns (Score:4, Funny)
The emergency brake is sadly in a submenu
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Yeah, but Tesla are going to take that away too - sure, you'll be able to go to Start -> Manoeuvres -> Turning -> Advanced -> ManMode -> Handbrake turn, but where's the fun in that!?
Automated (Score:2)
Three point turns
Wouldn't a Tesla be able to naturally handle three-point turns automatically? It would see it would be hitting an obstacle if it continued to turn, automatically back up a bit, then complete the turn. Same for parallel parking where it should just be able to detect a PP operation in action.
A Tesla in fact could probably handle both things better than a human, avoiding curb rash a driver would be unable to se before it was too late.
Re:Automated (Score:4, Insightful)
And when there is a ditch, possibly full of snow so looking flat, instead of a curb, or soft ground instead of a curb?
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So instead of taking one hand off the steering wheel to the gear shifter, you take one hand off the wheel to the touch screen?
Heck I did this in a Manual Transmission, Where I needed to use the gas, clutch and break, while shifting from first to reverse and back, while using the blinker and steering wheel.
You are really finding problems that don't exist.
Eyes on the road (Score:2)
I need to have a gear shift stalk so that I can shift without taking my eyes off the road when I need to shift while moving.
Oh, wait.
Yeah, of all the things moved to the touch screen, this one is one really makes sense. You don't need a park gear, as the car can do that automatically when you get out (if you leave it in hold, which is either automatic when you stop, or by giving the brake a hard press, depending on your settings). Neutral is only needed for towing or car washes.
The only thing that drivers
Re:Eyes on the road (Score:5, Insightful)
Switching between drive and reverse is both very important and very difficult for an AI to guess when navigating tight parking lots or making a 3-point turn.
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very important and very difficult for an AI to guess
This. Further, it's not JUST a safety hazard, or an awkward UI where I'll be stuck blocking the road for several extra seconds trying to get into reverse. It's also an anti-convenience. Unless it works FLAWLESSLY, I will be stuck having to constantly double-check that the car is going to move in the correct direction. That increases my workload while driving instead of decreasing it, which should be the goal of automation.
Re:Eyes on the road (Score:4, Insightful)
The goal of Tesla's automation is to sell more Teslas and save as much money as humanly possible. Removing a custom stalk while promising people it's some futuristic feature does exactly that.
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They are really trying to push the autopark feature, which I have to guess is rarely used today. The problem is that the AI has no way of knowing that my neighbor on the left always backs in and never lets his wife or kids get out in the space if I am there, or that the space on the right is just used Tuesday afternoons, so I should position myself on the right line except Tuesday, and on Tuesday give plenty of leeway on the right.
It also has poor awareness as to if I need to load or unload via the rear doo
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Even simpler. I live somewhat rurally, and when I've been out shopping I like to park next to the yard gate so I don't have to walk so far with all the bags. Then when I'm done I get in the car, throw it in reverse, and back up some twenty meters to get to the parking space. I can do that kind of reversing since my road sees like, five cars an hour when traffic is heavy - obviously it's ill advised in the city.
But how will a Tesla know that I intend to drive like that? It's very likely going to assume that
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That's the entire problem with touch controls in a car. I have that on the center console and it's highly annoying. Nice for displaying a map, but having buttons I can feel work much better. Luckily there's not much that requires the touch pad in normal use except for fan controls.
It's the same reason I use the remote control for my Roku instead of being hobbled by the smart phone app that does the same thing.
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Well, some gloves are designed to work with touch screens, but the other argument is that you don't need gloves if you have a heated steering wheel.
What? (Score:5, Insightful)
I have to say, about 30% of the reason I think EVs are a bad joke is because Tesla, held up as the paragon of EVs, makes mind-boggling and down-right dangerous design decisions in its vehicles.
Remember when Anton Yelchin died because of a poorly designed gear selector? That was child's play compared to this. Tesla has truly turned outsmarting oneself into a science.
Too clever by half (Score:5, Insightful)
The phrase "too clever by half" comes to mind.
Re: Too clever by half (Score:2)
Too clever, too cute, too precious...
We've gotten a little too fat and happy with a dichotomy between generally good products (well-designed, well-made) or generally bad products (poor design, shoddy construction) that we haven't had a chance to develop the vocabulary necessary to describe a product that is obviously the result of hard work by highly-trained people that nevertheless misses the mark by a mile.
The closest I can think of is "not even wrong" which generally insults sloppy thinking in formal mat
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Indeed, a broken touchsceen now makes your car completley inoperable.
The are looking to cut BOM and manufacturing cost with no real eye to reliability and long term wear.
Re: Too clever by half (Score:3, Interesting)
The youtubes keep suggesting Tesla fanboi videos to me. Perhaps someone knows I'm in the market for a new car.
Anyway, even the fanbois have to hype up how good Tesla service is. What a backhanded complement: it ships half-broken...the other half breaks on delivery...but they fix it real fast when you call!
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Wait until the competitors copy Tesla's features. I'm pretty certain that whatever thought Tesla is putting into the engineering, will be twice that of the underpaid engineer rushing out a design change for marketing reasons ...
Then take your life savings and short TSLA (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Then take your life savings and short TSLA (Score:5, Interesting)
True visionary geniuses - take that Nikola Tesla guy, for example - often die poor and aren't appreciated until decades after their deaths.
At which point, a financier of no relation comes along and turns their name into his brand.
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That gear selector was terrible engineering from Chrysler or whatever they called themselves back then. BMW had a similar design but with one small difference. If you left the car in neutral and opened the door the BMW design would apply the parking brake. What a shitty way to die. Crushed accidentally by a mediocre vehicle.
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Actually I love it when I can open the door and drive the car - driver side mirror doesn't see the wheels, and if I need to turn-90degrees-and-back the car into "double lined" parking spots from tight access roads I open the door and drive.
If there are cars parked on each side, I fit the car in the middle. If they are not, I need to see the lines and the mirror doesn't work.
Re: What? (Score:2)
Sounds like you're not in neutral though.
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Tesla Model 3 is already putting the car automatically in Park if the driver's door is opened while stationary.
And it will scream bloody murder if any passenger door opens while in Drive or Reverse, even if stationary with the foot on the brake pedal.
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Re: What? (Score:3)
Ah, you mean the thing that points in one direction, gives you no depth perception, and is meant to be used to make sure you're not running over stuff in your blind spot? Perfect place to be looking when backing up in a parking lot with people d cars all over.
Don't break the UI (Score:5, Insightful)
Fuck Beta (Score:2)
Apparently nobody at Tesla is a Slashdotter.
Because they'd have learned a lesson about a classic UI
http://slashdot.org/story/1978... [slashdot.org]
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Until you get somebody that's only driven automatic in a manual...
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And people who drove East German Trabants, Polish Zuks and Romanian Dacias, will adopt to any vehicle control system.
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SteveJobs never added “features” to Apple software. He saw the marketing the automotive industry put behind the gimmick. Elon should have gotten the memo on Tesla UI software. Bad form indeed
It's been done (Score:5, Informative)
Re:It's been done (Score:5, Insightful)
The federal government actually standardized the shifter layout in the mid 1960's. They didn't actually make it a hard requirement, but instead mandated that all government fleet purchases must have the now familiar PRNDL layout, and within a couple of years all the manufacturers fell in line with that.
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I had a 1960 Dart with push button auto.
loved it.
There was zero question as to which gear was selected because they used radio buttons.
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The actual radio was fairly well removed from the gear selector, and had differently-shaped buttons. It also was a tube radio and of course only got AM...
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Yeah, I really miss that car. It had a big block 318 with 240hp and 340lb-ft, and 12:1 compression. I had to run premium with octane booster, but the fuel was only like a buck a gallon back when I had it
Re:It's been done (Score:4, Insightful)
'Change is hard', these are cars. 2 ton machines that operate 5 feet away from pedestrians and cause over 100 deaths a day in the US. We ignore the danger because we built society around them being essential, but these are machines that are by most measures more dangerous than industrial robots and mills which we install cages around in factories.
We've done an incredible number of the number of driver and passenger deaths. You're safer in a car today than any other point in history, but we've done a terrible job on pedestrian fatalities so while the number of passenger deaths has remained constant for a decade with increasing population, the number of pedestrian deaths has increased by 50%. A lot of that's cell phones, not really the car and there are obstacle detection features in Teslas. These are good. But something being harder does mean it takes more concentration to avoid a mistake so generally it increases the probability of the error occuring and in this case that could be fatal.
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"You're safer in a car today than any other point in history"
no, you're not
because there are orders of magnitude more cars now than there were 40 years ago.
the cars themselves, as devices, may be safer to operate
but the operators are not and there are (of course) orders of magnitude more.
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Use actual facts to make arguments rather than basing it on feelings.
There were 36,120 car deaths in the US in 2019. 2011 was the lowest in recent history at 32,479, 10% difference in deaths, about a 5% difference in driver population so pretty close to a statistic noise there but technically, that would be the year that it was best. Either way, not the point.
More cars has not correlated with more deaths on the road, the first time we hit 36,000 automobile deaths in a single year was 1936, when the US po
Re:It's been done (Score:4, Informative)
The best normalizing statistic for this is the number of deaths per million miles driven (there are variants: per vehicle, per person). But this number has (for the most part) steadily declined in the last hundred years of US automobile history.
Graph [wikipedia.org]
--
The Rankled Engineer
Sudden reverse (Score:5, Insightful)
I hope they accounted for the need to sudden reverse when the semi in front of you realizes they can't make their turn and just starts backing up with no regard for what is behind them. There really isn't much reaction time other then hit the shifter and GTFO.
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"A dead driver and a living driver have spent the same amount of money on me. Financially, there is no difference." -Your Tesla
Re: Sudden reverse (Score:3)
For a Tesla that's a bit advanced. Let's walk before we run and start by just not driving into stopped semis at full speed.
Re:Sudden reverse (Score:4, Insightful)
A bus turning right down a somewhat narrow street is going to need the cars in the opposite lane to give it some space. If the first couple of cars in that lane are turning left they can't just go forward while the bus is there since it's not blocking the lane they're turning into. This is how traffic jams start.
Wait! What? (Score:2)
Teslas have neutral?
Re:Wait! What? (Score:5, Interesting)
You're still going to want a differentiation between parked and neutral if only to tow the car or car washes. Common complaint Tesla owners have is the cars switch to park when the seat sensor detects someone left a seat. So if you put the car in neutral for a automated car wash and then reach for a bag in the back, you're car now switched to park as it's being pushed along the track.
What's this PRND? (Score:5, Funny)
My gear shift is R123456. And if it's not in one of those, it's N.
I gotta admit, one thing I will miss when I go electric is manual transmissions...
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What is this new-fangled R123456 I keep 'earing about, son?
They say it's going to replace my Johnson bar [wikipedia.org]. First they took away my good ol' whip, and now this? Sigh.
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My gear shift is R123456. And if it's not in one of those, it's N.
I gotta admit, one thing I will miss when I go electric is manual transmissions...
So you have nighttime driving covered with the N mode, but how do you drive around during the daytime without a D mode?
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My gear shift is R123456. And if it's not in one of those, it's N.
I gotta admit, one thing I will miss when I go electric is manual transmissions...
So you have nighttime driving covered with the N mode, but how do you drive around during the daytime without a D mode?
You are confused. It's not D, it is d - the format identifier for integers, so modes 1,2,3,4,5,6 will all do. When you want to drive unrestricted and just integers won't do, you can always switch to (R)eal of course...
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Most EVs have manual transmissions. It's just well, "1". The power band of an ICE is terrible, which is why we're stuffing 8, 9, 10+ gears into the transmission. The power band of an electric motor is so wide, you get away with a single speed gearbox. (And since reverse can be done by driving the motor backwards, albeit inefficiently, well, it really is a fixed
Will Boeing do this with the 737? (Score:2)
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I enjoy my 3 more than the X. I do occasionally drive a "normal" car and I dislike doing so every time. There are a lot of haters. But have any of them actually tried the new shifter? (No) Most of them probably have not even driven a Tesla. Nothing is perfect. I am not a fan of the 3 in when it has been parked outside during an ice storm. But Tesla is pushing the envelope forward whereas everyone else seems to be satisfied with status quo.
gear stick (Score:2)
Re: gear stick (Score:2)
Your other gear stick?
At least one aspect of shifting could automate (Score:2)
If you think about it, why not automatically switch the car to reverse if the car sees a driver who is stopped, turn around and look behind them then apply the throttle... could save a lot of awkward garage accidents. And also prevent going into reverse while in forward motion.
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fwiw I don't look behind me all the time when backing up. Usually I look at the backup camera screen.
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Of course, I might be looking at the camera screen for either backing up or fine maneuvering with an 'all around view'.
I think automatically guessing the entire direction the human wants the car to go in is a bad idea. Sure, it can activate full park assist and make the determination for all of it, but *guessing* a human's intent from context can be bad.
E.g. in the article he says 'oh, the car sees it's a parking deck and you are facing a wall, you probably want to back up'. Maybe the driver was thinking t
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Because any time someone departs an on-street parking space, they have to look over their shoulder and make sure the street is clear before pulling out.
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So when you turn around to check if the wife has shown up and wants the trunk open to put in the groceries, the car backs up? I guess if you want to kill the wife and blame the car, it is a good idea.
But you have to *look* at the screen (Score:2)
This just seems... wrong - having such functionality onscreen means you have to:
1. Look at it
2. Point to it, with some level of accuracy (might be more difficult for some demographics)
3. Correctly initiate the required action (up/down in straight line in this case - again, some demographics might struggle with that)
With a stick (or radio button for volume, or wiper blades control), you just "go by feel", often without even needing to look, and not needing to be so precise - but with a "touch" screen, you c
Grand Theft Auto (Score:2)
"Swipe to Drive" is also known as "Grand Theft Auto"; or, Grand Theft.
Handling in snow or muddy conditions (Score:2)
I'd like to see how well this gear selection process works when the driver needs to rapidly switch between forward and reverse, a situation commonly encountered in muddy or snowing conditions.
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I'd like to see how well this gear selection process works when the driver needs to rapidly switch between forward and reverse, a situation commonly encountered in muddy or snowing conditions.
Wait, there are people that don't live in California? Every time I see the brown road-snow-shit on my car in the winter, I get a little chuckle out of how great these fancy systems are going to work once they are out of beta in CA.
Re:Handling in snow or muddy conditions (Score:5, Interesting)
I live in a snowy country.
Recently I had a drive in a friends' car, 100 km on gentle snowfall. We had to stop repeatedly because the parking / proximity sensors were clogged with snow. The car thought that we will be hitting something and stated beeping furiously at us. She had to stop the car, clean the sensors around the car, continue and repeat.
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Re: Handling in snow or muddy conditions (Score:2)
Or how about wearing gloves, when it is -40C out.
My car is parked in the driveway, and I want to back up. There is nothing in front, or behind it. Now I have to drive gloveless, so I can control basic, essential functionality? It takes 10 minutes to heat a car when that cold, and with an EV, and already reduced winter range, I'd prefer gloves over toasty warm.
And no, touchscreen capable gloves don't cut it at that temp.
What about parking? All the other blather in this story? Frankly, it may not even be
Automatic shifting will be beta for next 20 years (Score:3)
Like all other features Elon has sold in the past, it's just hype to allow him to save cost on the car. This is nothing more than moving the gear selector to the touchscreen and save on having a physical stalk. The Automatic gear shifting will probably not come to regular customers for a while, and when it does it will be labeled as "Beta - you must watch everything it does and take over immediately if it does the wrong thing - you are responsible for any and all damage caused by the car's wrong guess". Welcome to Elon world. I've been there since 2013, bought plenty of features such as 691hp (actually 463hp on its best day, but it could be 691hp if Tesla put a battery with 50% more power output in the car they sold as 691hp capable car, which they didn't - upgrade was $80K when that better batter did become available), summon which will find me anywhere on private property (6 years later, it will drive in a straight line up to 40 feet forwards or backwards while I hold a dead-man-switch on my cell phone, and of course anything it hits is my fault), FSD which will come to me (summon) by itself from Ney York to L.A. (ROFL, cars sold in 2016 with this hype feature from Elon will turn into dust before Tesla delivers that feature to those cars), etc, etc.
I see this going to cause some accidents, and Elon pointing out that you agreed to use the Beta feature when enabling it, therefore it's all your fault that the car backed into someone at an intersection. I still have 2 Teslas today, both of them often offer to parallel park the car when at a red light, so no way am I buying a Tesla with auto shifting. The fact that the manual override exists tells us that the AI based shifting doesn't always work. Of course, having been a Tesla customer for 8 years, I will also tell you that the main screen hangs, or completely dies - it's basically an tablet with a an expected life of a tablet, 2-5 years, and even before it dies, using a 4 year old Tesla is like using a 4 year old iPad, still runs a verison of new software but gets slower every update and without most new features,
Re: Automatic shifting will be beta for next 20 ye (Score:2)
Bruh the engineering cost to determine direction and then shift the transmission easily eclipsed the cost of the $0.01 turn stalk.
TIL musk is penny-wise pound foolish
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Where automotive UI is concerned... (Score:4, Insightful)
...Less Apple, more Fisher-Price.
Who needs muscle memory? (Score:2)
We've already see people crash their cars because Tesla decided to move windscreen wiper functionality to the touchscreen. The stupid part is this was PREDICTABLE. And so is moving the gear se
Really? (Score:2)
"Now, according to Elon Musk, this is all just a backup to the car automatically switching gears for you."
That can't be hard since the car has none.
Federal motor vehicle standards. (Score:2)
Tesla has gone full stupid.
Sigh. (Score:2)
It's literally like they are trying to find ways to kill people and test corporate manslaughter laws.
Designed by Californians for use in California (Score:2)
Do not want. (Score:2)
It's official, in this area I am a luddite.
I've given up on any return to the "good old days" I recognize that while for many it's difficult to trust a car to drive itself, people as a group have proven consistently that they cannot be trusted to drive at all. I understand that new engines are simply better than ones based on manual transmissions, and I know that any car available to me in the future will not even have the stick as an option.
I accept it all. But I'm sad.
i was born in 1970. The circumstances