Why Hyundai Is the One To Watch In the Race For EVs (thedrive.com) 200
Citing the Korean automaker's "striking designs, interesting battery tech, and robust product pipeline," John Voelcker from The Drive makes the case for why Hyundai "could emerge among the companies that transition fastest to EVs." From the report: Its battery-electrics will come fast, entering the mass market on pace with those from GM and Ford. Hyundai's smart enough not to try to compete in full-size electric pickup trucks, still the last stronghold for the Detroit 2.5, not least because they're largely unsellable outside North America. The lackluster results for Nissan and Toyota after 20 years of building U.S.-style full-size pickups provide an object lesson. But Hyundai has aggressive plans for the rest of the light truck and passenger vehicle market.
Of course, every automaker worth its salt these days has a bold plan to launch a flotilla of electric vehicles over the next 5-10 years and is pouring billions of dollars into making it happen. What's slightly different here is that Hyundai has shown over the past decade it can notably improve its cars with each generation and break new ground as fast as any other maker, all while keeping prices relatively close to Earth. It was late to SUVs, but now it has a full lineup that leads its sales and offers good value for the money. With the playing field mostly leveled by a tectonic technological shift, expect Hyundai to do the same with electric vehicles, even as the global patchwork of emissions regulations and cultural divides means different markets will move at different speeds.
When the company launched vehicles with plugs in the U.S. in 2014, it didn't limit them to two vehicles (as GM did), but released half a dozen of them. They were BEVs with ranges from 100 to 230 miles, various plug-in hybrid models of sedan and now SUV, and more are coming. Hyundai also wants to play in the world of hydrogen vehicles, though it is wisely focusing on freight movement rather than personal-use vehicles. But that's a different story altogether. What matters now is understanding how Hyundai became a force to be reckoned with in this all-important, high-stakes battle.
Of course, every automaker worth its salt these days has a bold plan to launch a flotilla of electric vehicles over the next 5-10 years and is pouring billions of dollars into making it happen. What's slightly different here is that Hyundai has shown over the past decade it can notably improve its cars with each generation and break new ground as fast as any other maker, all while keeping prices relatively close to Earth. It was late to SUVs, but now it has a full lineup that leads its sales and offers good value for the money. With the playing field mostly leveled by a tectonic technological shift, expect Hyundai to do the same with electric vehicles, even as the global patchwork of emissions regulations and cultural divides means different markets will move at different speeds.
When the company launched vehicles with plugs in the U.S. in 2014, it didn't limit them to two vehicles (as GM did), but released half a dozen of them. They were BEVs with ranges from 100 to 230 miles, various plug-in hybrid models of sedan and now SUV, and more are coming. Hyundai also wants to play in the world of hydrogen vehicles, though it is wisely focusing on freight movement rather than personal-use vehicles. But that's a different story altogether. What matters now is understanding how Hyundai became a force to be reckoned with in this all-important, high-stakes battle.
Most of the Car manufacturers do not seem to see (Score:5, Interesting)
how the market is really changing.
The EV adoption is increasing faster and faster. Look at Norway, how fast they transitioned to almost purely electric vehicles after the tax structure made them competitive there.
Given that that the price of the most expensive parts in an EV, the battery is going fast down in price, and outside of the battery the rest of the EV is much simpler to manufacture than a comparative ICE vehicle, the moment where an EV is cheaper without any tax incentives is not that far off. When that point approaches and EVs are only a bit more expensive, the adoption will likely raise a lot and likely even faster than Norway did as the EV tech is now better than when the big transition there started.
And yet the companies are building more plants to build ICE vehicles instead of building for the future need.
Even Hyundai is one foot in and one foot out.
So likely the result will be that the new car market in say 10 years will be dominated by Tesla and the Chinese EV makers.
You Failed To See The Hype For What It Is (Score:4)
Spectacular growth rates are to be expected and not actually telling when the initial numbers are as low as they are with EVs. You've been swept up in the hype and think that Norway's automobile consumption has any bearing whatsoever on the overall automobile market.
Despite the "incredible growth" of EV sales, the all time entirety of EV production and sales pale in insignificance when one looks at the sales of just the ICE Toyota Corolla or even just the ICE Ford F-150.
I'm not saying that the promises won't materialize. I'm simply pointing out that the assumption, as if a forgone conclusion, that EV is the only future and it'll happen at any second, so "Most of the Car manufacturers do not seem to see..." is premature at the least.
I think that the ICE manufactures are seeing just fine. The market is still ICE and the money is still in ICE, else they'd be doing a lot more that funky bespoke models that have embarrassing sales numbers.
Clarification (Score:2)
the all time entirety of EV production and sales pale in insignificance when one looks at just this years sales of only the ICE Toyota Corolla or even only the ICE Ford F-150.
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Yes, more ICEs are sold.
But sales of EVs in 2021 are up 160% since 2020.
EVs are selling as fast as manufacturers can ramp up production.
Disclaimer: I drive an EV. I love it. I will never own another ICE.
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Except if you look at Norway where the sale of EVs overtook those powered by petrol, diesel and hybrid engines combined at about 54% market share for EVs in 2020, up from about 42% the year before.
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Because Norway taxes ICE cars so much that they end up being the more expensive option.
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Yes, and it will not be the only country.
Like many European countries have a yearly vehicle tax that is based on how polluting the car is. Also several have some sort of reduction in tax or an incentive to buying an EV.
As example Finland has an extra tax on sale of cars, but from first of October this year the EVs do not have to pay that.
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Well I am not sure..
Main ones:
Norway: No purchase/import taxes
Finland: No purchase/import taxes
So same
Additional on purchase:
Norway: Exemption from VAT on purchase
Finland: 2000 Euro VAT reduction
Yes here Norway is cheaper, but the difference is not very much on the cheaper cars like an example calculation I saw had about 5500 euro VAT on an e-golf, so Finland giving 2000 euro compensation is 3500 less. So a definite difference.
Ongoing:
Norway: Reduced annual road tax: about 95 eur less/year
Finland:Reduced V
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Even with such incredible sale numbers, the BEVs won't quickly make a dent into the huge _existing_ number of ICEs.
Many cars are driven at 20 years of age, so even a couple of years of 100% BEV sales will only cover 10% of the overall number.
(the miles they're driven might be out of proportion to their number though).
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You've been swept up in the hype and think that Norway's automobile consumption has any bearing whatsoever on the overall automobile market.
I think it does. It clearly shows that with some basic tax/parking etc incentives, a whole country can switch to EVs within a very shot period of time with current tech. Not just suburban tech bros, but 70% of buyers in a country that's large, sparesely populated and cold. The only thing stopping other countries is the lack of will and some money, but prices are coming down already.
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And yet the companies are building more plants to build ICE vehicles instead
Does this really matter? Is an ICE vehicle factory really any different from a BEV factory?
Telsa's big factory in Fremont is a former ICE vehicle factory.
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Seems to be big enough differences to make for significant problems.
Basically all the manufacturers trying to make electric cars seem to have problems in ramping up production to meet demand for EVs. At the same time they seem to be able to start new factories for ICE vehicle production pretty fast.
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> Basically all the manufacturers trying to make electric cars seem to have problems in ramping up production to meet demand for EVs. At the same time they seem to be able to start new factories for ICE vehicle production pretty fast.
It's a supply chain issue, first and foremost.
It takes dozens of industries to produce an internal combustion engine, from the raw materials to the various parts and the processes needed to make them. Since they've been mass producing combustion engines for over a hundred he
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The ramp-up is mainly constrained by the availability of batteries, and to a less extent by the availability of copper for the motor coils.
It is not because the factories are different.
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Look at Norway, how fast they transitioned to almost purely electric vehicles after the tax structure made them competitive there.
All driven by the money and guilt from exporting billions of tons of oil.
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What do you mean, 'most'? From where I'm sitting, just about every manufacturer is scrambling to develop EVs. Many have adopted a two-pronged strategy, to serve 2 markets with different needs:
1. countries that are adopting EVs rapidly and have set a date to phase out ICEV.
2. countries that are moving slower.
So they've started cranking out hybrids and PHEV for the short term, to get their CO2 emissions down now. This also allows them to build EV experience without having to go all in just yet, in anticipatio
Hyundai reliability / features (Score:3)
Between the Ioniq 5 and a Model Y, I would get the Ioniq since it offers a HUD and top down view. Why Tesla doesn't offer these two features is a mystery to me. They are must haves once you own a car that has them.
Re: Hyundai reliability / features (Score:2)
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The Ioniq 5? I can't imagine - they aren't available yet.
Hyundai did recall a few tens of thousands '19-'20 Model year Konas which were built in S. Korea with LG cells; we might never know the exact details but currently the blame is on LG for a manufacturing defect. Chevy Sparks which used the same cells from the same factory also got a recall.
Not really a big deal in the grand scheme of things. Barely a week goes by when some manufacturer is issuing a recall for something, and sometimes that "something" c
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I currently own a Lexus, Subaru, Nissan, and a VW. I had a Hyundai for about 5 years before it was thankfully totaled by a deer.
I spent more time repairing the Hyundai than any of my other cars.
Very crappy quality and construction. It felt like a toy compared to any of my other cars.
The rental agency experience may be indicative of either recent quality improvements or short term new-car reliability.
I don't buy new cars so my experience is with cars 10+ years old.
Re: Hyundai reliability / features (Score:2)
Means nothing without telling us the year
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I expected the VW to always be in the shop. Between them and BMW they're really fucking up the reputation for German cars.
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Means nothing without telling us the year
Might have been a Pony.
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Hyundais back in the 80s and 90s were a joke. Anyone remember the Pony? Heck, we even mocked Samsung stuff from back then.
However, the Koreans then figured out how to improve the quality of their products tremendously, so a relatively new post-millennium Hyundai is generally a cheap but worthy product. Japanese is best, of course, but Korea has decent stuff that doesn't cost so much.
Though, if given the choice, Japanese for when the Korean product starts to cost nearly as much as the Japanese one. Well, exc
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Anecdotes are not data. Hyundai consistently come at or very near the top of reliability lists based on surveying owners. For years Hyundai was known for making boring but reliable vehicles. Their current line-up actually has some pretty nice cars in it.
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Apple thinks so too (Score:2)
https://www.caranddriver.com/n... [caranddriver.com]
"Hyundai Motor announced this morning that it is no longer in talks with Apple to build the technology company's planned autonomous electric vehicle. After a month of talks between the two companies, it seems that the deal created a stir within Hyundai's executive ranks over concerns about the automaker becoming a builder of Apple products like Foxconn. "We are receiving requests for cooperation in joint development of autonomous
Hydrogen and EV stuff.... (Score:2)
On the Hydrogen vehicles? I don't know how true it is, but I was told at an EV vehicle expo last year that GM was actually doing a lot of investment in Hydrogen -- but not out of any interest in selling Hydrogen-powered vehicles to the general public. Instead, it was the U.S. military who was interested in the concept for troop transport vehicles and the like. With clean water as the emissions byproduct, it could be captured to use for drinking water for troops in desert conditions.
I think Hydrogen is kind
This was one of my predictions too (Score:2)
When I was looking at BC projected 80% EV market in 2025 or the lesser ones in CA OR WA that are half the US economy, Hyundai stood out as being able to deliver in sufficient quantity to meet that demand.
Although you are technically better off replacing your 3 car house with a 1 EV truck, 3 electric bike townhouse, if you really want to make a difference.
"vehicles with plugs" (Score:4, Insightful)
>"When the company launched vehicles with plugs in the U.S. in 2014"
Those are not "EV's", they are hybrids. All the complexity/weight/maintenance/expense of an ICE. No thanks, for me that defeats the whole point. Wake me up when they have some actual electric (ONLY) cars.
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I don't know about the US or other markets but here in Australia Hyundai will quite happily sell you a full-electric IONIQ hatchback or a full-electric KONA SUV.
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>I don't know about the US or other markets but here in Australia Hyundai will quite happily sell you a full-electric IONIQ hatchback or a full-electric KONA SUV."
Looks like they just released the slow electric Kona SUV in the US, and the slow electric IONIQ hatchback (with tiny range). So that is one car choice, but one more than they had before (since what they had before were not EV's). I will keep hoping they decide to come out with a loaded performance sedan.
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Agreed. I still want to see an EV with hub motors instead of using the traditional ICE mechanical linkages to a main motor.
I know that's more unsprung weight, but there are already vehicles with hub motors out there, and for some reason they seem to exist for ebikes and buses but nothing in between.
I do like the idea of a trailer with a plug-in generator for longer trips, though. At least until EV range can reliably match that of ICE vehicles.
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I don't know why the US seems to not be getting their fully electric vehicles, but the Kona and Ioniq are both excellent cars. The Kona will give you a solid 250 miles range in winter and is quite affordable. The Ioniq 5 is a bit more up-market.
What about a goddamn truck (Score:2)
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What kind of truck?
I guess "this time next year" is a fair estimate if you want to drive an electric pickup off the lot of a local dealership.
If you mean long-haul road tractors, those already exist. Get in touch with Volvo or BYD if you're looking for an all-electric, Class 8 hauler.
=Smidge=
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A reveal (Score:2)
... entering the mass market on pace with those from GM and Ford.
But not, apparently, on pace with Tesla.
see General Motors versus the Volkswagen Group, or Ford and Tesla trading blows.
"Trading blows" is it? More like swatting flies with a beer truck.
Going by the numbers it is one company shipping more than all the competitors combined, but the article makes it sound like Tesla is just one more player desperately scrabbling for some market share along with everyone else. In fact they are 5-10 years ahead of everyone else. Why can't the trade press acknowledge that?
It will be fun (Score:2)
Once the big automakers finally catch up to Tesla and eventually lap them, it will be fun watching the resulting gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands over that valuation.
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Re:As a family with 2 chevy bolts... (Score:5, Insightful)
Where do you plan on sourcing hydrogen from?
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And how do you propose we stop oil companies from getting an unstoppable foothold in hydrogen? There is nothing stopping them from polluting to generate hydrogen until even this planet is lifeless.
Re: As a family with 2 chevy bolts... (Score:5, Interesting)
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At 3000 ppm the planet goes full Venus, so maybe not. Anyway, you are incredibly naive if you think the oil companies haven't bought politicians.
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Solar powered hydrolyzers are a thing
As is the fact that the same power you need to fuel one FCEV can power three BEVs. Considering the extreme urgency of our needs to transition away from ICEs, that seems like a bit of a problem for FCEVs.
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Hydrogen was a neat idea in the 1980s.
Solar power to car battery is extremely more efficient than:
i) producing hydrogen with electrolysis (roughly 70% efficient)
II) transporting hydrogen to where it is needed (you use a pipeline, probably powered by its own hydrogen? Or a truck? Same issue?)
I'm pretty sure there are niche situations where an hydrogen fuel cell EV makes sense. But not for the mass market.
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Re: As a family with 2 chevy bolts... (Score:2)
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In other words you've picked one issue over all the others and are now acting like your solution's crap don't smell.
Re:As a family with 2 chevy bolts... (Score:5, Insightful)
Lithium is ridiculously abundant (Nevada alone has enough lithium clays to electrify every single vehicle in the US, and then some), and it only makes up a couple percentage of a battery, a rather small fraction of its cost.
Anyone who talks about "lithium shortages" has no clue what elements actually concern battery manufacturers*** (FYI, battery-grade nickel is the main one... it's driving manufacturers into LFP, even though they'd much rather use NMC / NCA). And when it comes to lithium, manufacturers have more focus on refining than supply.
It's not that there's not money in supply - far from it, both go hand-in-hand, and a company whose resource prospecting shows a large resource has business lined up for ages. But it's not the limiting factor.
*** - Also, while not an ev battery mineral, global rare earth demand forecasts are far too pessimistic about demand, so I fully expect some limitations in that regard - though they can be dealt with by switching to low- or no PM motor technologies, usually at the cost of some efficiency. There's also some work to make (admittedly less powerful) rare-earth magnets from cerium, which is far more abundant than neodymium)
Re:As a family with 2 chevy bolts... (Score:4, Insightful)
> and yet a car can refill liquid hydrogen pretty darn rapidly
No car will ever refill with liquid hydrogen. Hydrogen vehicles use compressed gas storage at up to 70MPa (10,000 psig).
I mean that's a pretty big misunderstanding right there. Trying to store liquid hydrogen in a motor vehicle is so absurdly bad I almost think you're making a joke. Are you sure you understand these technologies enough to be discussing them?
=Smidge=
Re:As a family with 2 chevy bolts... (Score:5, Informative)
Except no one is working on liquid delivery of hydrogen for automobiles, which would require cryogenic storage. The Toyota Mirai uses 350/700 bar pressure tanks for gaseous storage, which is how the current pumps work. I don't know the speed of delivery, but their PDF on how to fill [toyota.com] the car says "During periods of high-humidity, the nozzle may become frozen and unable to disconnect from the vehicle for a period of several minutes or longer." They do provide a toll-free phone number to call if you need help refuelling your car. Neither of those sound promising for short refueling waits.
It is commonly assumed that an infrastructure of hydrogen pipeline transport, points of hydrogen production and hydrogen stations (sometimes clustered as a hydrogen highway) for distribution as well as the sale of hydrogen fuel, are a crucial prerequisite before a successful commercialization of automotive fuel cell technology.
As of January 2021 [wikipedia.org] there are 45 publicly accessible hydrogen refueling stations in the US, 43 of which were located in California.
BEVs don't require an entire new infrastructure to be built, whereas HCVs do. There are billions of dollars being poured into battery technology that doesn't use lithium [scientificamerican.com]. Claiming lithium dependency will kill BEVs implies there will be zero advancement in battery technology, and that's just crazy.
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As Lithium is one of the most abundant elements on the planet: there is no lithium problem.
Hydrogen at the moment: costs more than gasoline. And that is remarkable as hydrogen is not even taxed, and in Germany roughly 90% of the gasoline/diesel prices are: taxes.
While there is a push/lobby for hydrogen, it is not going to happen, except perhaps for air planes.
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FTFY.
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Then go and use the bathroom, get a coffee, etc.. Meanwhile the EV is already charged.
You can drink the coffee on the road, and if your bathroom breaks take as long as charging an EV you may need more fiber in your diet.
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> you may need more fiber in your diet.
I've never denied that.
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You can drink the coffee on the road,
Only americans do that.
A coffee is for enjoying the coffee. In a porcelain cup, if it is an expresso, in a small preheated porcelain cup, and you watch the girls walking by.
Brining a coffee into a car is a no go. If I have passengers and we made a stop on an Autobahn and instead of drinking the coffee relaxed at the restaurant, and bring it in a paper bag: I do not let them into my car. Plain and simple.
https://www.caoc.org/?pg=facts [caoc.org]
Quote:
Mrs. Liebeck was not driving whe
Re:As a family with 2 chevy bolts... (Score:5, Insightful)
On a recent trip up the west coast, nothing. No time was lost. Admittedly, we were not in any great hurry, but the car was always charged when we had finished what we wanted to do at the stop.
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> On a cross-country trip, how many hours do you lose charging compared to filling with gasoline or hydrogen?
I'd say that is backwards. On a highway trip I'd expect to take breaks at least as often as I'd need to re-charge so I wouldn't view that as a problem.
In the city it would be more of a problem because you're usually busy and don't want to wait around. Unless of course they couple charging stations w/ malls, costcos, grocery stores, in which case I wouldn't care again.
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But in the city you're going to run out much less often as you charge up every night and start the new day with a full enough tank. There is typically no additional stop for recharging. It's a different mentality than ICE cars and needing to make an extra stop to fuel up rather than keeping it topped off every day.
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You would get a pleasant surprise if you looked up where most EV charging stations are located.
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"But thanks for admitting it takes 20 - 30 minutes to charge a vehicle. Each time the battery runs low. "
You are thinking about charging EVs with the same mental model as you think about fuelling ICE cars. That mental model leads you to ignore one of the key benefits of an EV: charging at home, overnight. That's where I do more than 99% of my charging. Every 10 days or so, I plug my car in at night, and it's full in the morning. Sometimes I go on a trip and use a public charger. But it's rare. I did a 300 m
Re:As a family with 2 chevy bolts... (Score:5, Informative)
You have no clue what owning an EV is actually like. A while ago I drove from Reykjavík to Akureyri (five hours) and I'm stopped at the supercharger at Staðarskáli for like 6-10 minutes, and the car is ready way before I am (seriously, time yourself the next time you stop on a road trip - you'll be surprised how long you spend at stops). I get to Akureyri and I plug in to a *low power* (50kW) DC charger, and by the time I'm done with my appointment, it's fully charged - and even if it hadn't been, there's a Supercharger in town. I drive back (5 hours) and it's the same situation in Staðarskáli on the way back.
Early in the summer my mother and I went to a summer home en route to Hólmavík in Vestfirðir. Just drove straight there, no stopping. Each day we did a long drive - no charging, just charged overnight, got home, plugged in, then did another one the next day. Never any "gas stops". One day we had to make an unexpected and rushed round trip to Reykjavík. We finished our errand, and went to lunch, plugging our car in while we ate (only ~60kW). Finished our meal, then drove straight back to near Hólmavík.
I'm heading up to Akureyri again soon, and you know my level of concern about charging? Zero. It's a complete and utter non-issue. It does not delay my trip at all, and it's cheaper and easier than pumping petrol.
It just simply is never an issue; you've invented your own misery in your head. And meanwhile, in my everyday life, I start each day with a "full tank", never experiencing the "Ugh, I need to stop for petrol today". The car is already fully ready for whatever I may want to do, without any detours to stand outside in some smelly asphalt lot in whatever miserable weather to pump ridiculously expensive carcinogens into a tank.
Iceland is roughly tied with Australia as the second-lowest population density country on Earth (after Mongolia), has harsh weather and rough terrain. If it works great here, it works great virtually anywhere.
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Iceland is roughly tied with Australia as the second-lowest population density country on Earth (after Mongolia), has harsh weather and rough terrain. If it works great here, it works great virtually anywhere.
No no you don't understand, America is extra special so it won't work there because of reasons.
I don't think population density (i.e. mean) is especially useful, because large, uninhabited areas don't really affect things. I think some sort of spatial aggregate is probably best, e.g. for each person ho
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You know that it takes over 16 hours to drive around Iceland nonstop?
Perhaps you should stick to commenting about things that you actually know about?
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Yes, Australia is two orders of magnitude bigger than Iceland.
And it has two orders of magnitude more people.
And two orders of magnitude more cars.
Which justifies two orders of magnitude more charging stations.
Which means that the number of economically-justifiable charging stations per unit area is the same.
It should be noted that our current status in Iceland is based on only a small percentage of the t
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Unless you are "greeted" by a hydrogen pump that has filled up 2 cars before you did. Then you'll need to wait until the pump installation has been re-pressurized to 700 psi. To do so in a (relative) safe fashion, which also doesn't expend a lot of energy, that will not be fast.
You are still waiting 15 to 20 minutes for your hydrogen car to fill up. Which is on par with BEV.
From what I understood, India is putting serious research into Aluminium+air batteries (so no lithium). Batteries are a lot smaller, an
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Depending upon where OP is, socal has a bunch of fueling stations. I think Toyota just made a big deal about going from LA to SFO in their Mirai hydrogen car with no fueling issues.The rest of the country, no idea.
You believe that milk comes from shops, in bottles. Don't you? Never let them disabuse you of this notion, you may be horrified.
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The first hydrogen fueling station opened in California in 2011.
At the time you could get a Honda FCX Clarity (MY 2008-2014), if you had a lot of cash and a fair bit of luck... to get one you had to live near a fueling station. Less than 50 were ever leased in the US and less than 100 were produced worldwide.
Also worth mentioning that around that time, Toyota, GM, Honda, and Hyundai were all talking about mass-market FCVs by 2015. Guess what never happened?
=Smidge=
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Hydrogen certainly doesn't work well in cold weather climates where the water it produces becomes ice on the roads.
Did you really write this? So a liter of gasoline is instantly converted into a liter of gas spilling on the road? A liter of hydrogen is instantly burned with a liter of oxygen and spilled as a liter of water on the road?
Well ... so much to modern days education levels.
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A hydrogen fueled car will not produce appreciably more water than a gasoline one.
Burning diesel or gasoline creates CO2 and H2O.
Gasoline is (probably) mainly a kind of C8H18, while diesel is some kind of C12H23.
As diesel is less rich in hydrogen, lets take it for a spin.
Lets ignore the nitrogen oxides (NOx), byproducts of burning fuel at high temperatures. Also, lets forget about the carbon monoxides.
C12H23 (diesel fuel) + 18O2 (the 20% concentration of oxygen from air) = 12 CO2 + 12 H2O (lets be g
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"Be that as it may, hydrogen does have some advantages over BEVs"
A fuel cell will naturally produce waste heat - this means that a fuel cell car doesn't need to discharge its battery to heat the inside. Range in winter is basically the same as range in summer (unlike BEVs which lose 10-20% of their driving range in winter).
Re:As a family with 2 chevy bolts... (Score:5, Informative)
We should always have been aiming for hydrogen.
Is this a joke? A troll?
Hydrogen makes no sense for ground transportation. H2 is currently produced in a very dirty process from fossil fuel. It is possible to make H2 from clean electricity, store it, and then later convert it back to electricity, but the round-trip efficiency is less than 50%. For comparison, the RTE of lithium batteries is over 90%.
Back in the 2000s, "hydrogen" advocacy was used by the fossil fuel industry to impede the development of battery-electric vehicles. H2 had one particularly prominent advocate (hint: his initials were "GWB") who had no interest in the technology other than to obstruct BEVs.
But that battle is over. BEVs won. Hydrogen lost.
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Re: As a family with 2 chevy bolts... (Score:2)
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Nuclear doesn't "follow loads" (it's very slow to ramp up or down), so its backup is also by gas turbines powered by natural gas. Nuclear is the replacement for coal (baseline power generation i.e. always on).
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Since a nuclear plant or solar has zero CO2 emissions, hydrogen is just as clean as a BEV even if hydrogen is more inefficient to acquire.
You need more nuclear to do hydrogen. So it's more expensive, even if it is nearly as clean.
In fact since hydrogen fueled cars produce oxygen and water, they are CLEANER overall than a BEV since they have environmentally positive emissions.
The nuclear power you saved from not making the hydrogen you can use to desalinate seawater if you want extra water.
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Correct in some cases, but given the fact that FCVs will always be half as efficient as BEVs due to conversion losses associated with generating hydrogen, BEVs will always be cleaner.
Since a nuclear plant or solar has zero CO2 emissions, hydrogen is just as clean as a BEV even if hydrogen is more inefficient to acquire.
Hydrogen is not 'just as clean' if you require twice as much nuclear than EV's.
That's twice as many nuclear power plants. Twice as much uranium mining. etc etc.
None of those things are clean and zero CO2. On top of this and completely separately. It will also be more expensive.
Happy now?
Re: (Score:2)
Nope, it's the same plant which as noted has plenty of excess capacity because it's nuclear. The amount used be vehicles is minuscule in the overall scheme of power required by cities. Doubling the power usage of cars is a small blip on the overall plant requirements.
I have been thinking about the totality of this issue, including nuclear power, for decades now.
Decades hey, but you still didn't notice that current EV's aren't all powered by nukes.
Only took me a second.
Re: (Score:2)
Nuclear plants do not usually run with excess capacity - they either run at 90+% percent of max power, or are down for refit/expected/unexpected maintenance.
Look for "Capacity factor" in - for example - the web page of Romania's nuclear power plant:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Re:Short-sighted to consider energy source now (Score:5, Informative)
Except most people don't "fuel up" electric vehicles outside their home. They plug-in at night and top the vehicle off and never see a fueling station except when they pop in for snacks.
The average miles driven per day [policyadvice.net] by a US resident are about 37. That's not a "let's take 30 minutes to recharge before we can go" situation.
This is one of the biggest issues defenders of ICE just can't wrap their heads around. For people who own their own homes it is like having your own personal gas station, without the smell or cleanup, at about $1.10 / gallon (WV rates).
Hydrogen requires a complete infrastructure build-out, electricity doesn't. And electricity travels by wire, not pipeline or tanker truck, so that infrastructure is easier and cheaper to deploy and maintain. And for those who live in parts of the world where sunshine is abundant, you can add home-based solar and reduce grid dependency.
Re: (Score:2)
Right now the BEV is in a niche.
The hybrids and plug-in hybrids are a different niche (you can drive less in all-electric mode or more in gasoline mode, but you pay up front for both systems and over time in gasoline engine maintenance).
In time, and with huge investments in electric infrastructure and electricity generation, the gasoline/diesel engines will become the niche.
Right now, 90% (or more) of personal car needs can be covered by BEV (at higher initial prices though).
Some trucks could be hybrids (tr
Re: (Score:2)
At the level of the entire European Union, more energy was produced from renewable sources than from fossil fuels:
https://cordis.europa.eu/artic... [europa.eu]
Some European countries (Norway, Iceland, ...) produce a large part of their electricity from renewable sources. It shouldn't come as a surprise that those countries gave very consistent bonuses for buyers of electric cars (and are taxing the hell out of new fossil fuel cars).
Re: (Score:2)
Many current world governments ...
Bingo.
H2 is being pushed by governments for political reasons.
BEVs are being made by profit-seeking capitalists for practical reasons.
Nobody spending their own money is investing in H2-FCV other than to suck up subsidies.
Re: As a family with 2 chevy bolts... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Exactly what I'm thinking because batteries are such a waste... but in the meantime, all major car manufacturers should be watched because EV cars are easy... a lot easier then ICE cars.
Re: (Score:2)
I will never buy another car from a legacy car company (such as Hyundai). And I'd never trust a company with no experience in fuel containment (think Tesla and peers) to build and service a fuel cell vehicle.
If Tesla ever produces a reasonable city car, I might consider replacing the piece of dung I drive now, but I believe, based on my assessment