Nissan Lays Out $17.6 Billion Plan To Electrify Its Future (theverge.com) 101
Nissan has announced plans to spend around $17.6 billion over the next five years to accelerate the roll-out of electric vehicles. "And to emphasize that point, Nissan unveiled a pack of delightful EV concepts, including an adorable pickup truck, an outdoorsy SUV, and a sleek sports car," reports The Verge. From the report: Nissan said it will produce 23 new electrified models by 2030, 15 of which will be fully electric. The company is targeting a 50 percent electrification mix for its Nissan and Infiniti brands by the end of the decade. In the US, Nissan plans to take things a little slower, only targeting 40 percent of its sales to be EVs by 2040. On batteries, Nissan is pursuing what it calls "all-solid-state batteries (ASSB)" by 2028. The company is preparing a "pilot plant" in Yokohama, Japan, for early 2024. Solid-state batteries could theoretically charge faster, hold more power, and last longer than traditional lithium-ion batteries, which use liquid electrolytes to move energy around. While solid-state batteries have eluded researchers for years, some companies claim that a breakthrough is nearly at hand.
Nissan says that solid-state batteries will help make EVs more affordable by reducing the price of battery packs down to $75 per kWh by 2028. The company aims to bring it further down to $65 per kWh to achieve cost parity between EV and gasoline vehicles in the future. To underline its commitment to an electric future, Nissan revealed a handful of EV concepts: a small pickup truck called Surf-Out; a boxy crossover called Hang-Out; a compact SUV called Chill-Out; and a convertible sports car called Max-Out. [...] It's an impressive commitment, but Nissan notably stopped short of making the same promise that other automakers have to phase out the production of gas-powered vehicles. For example, Volvo and General Motors have vowed to become EV-only companies by 2030 and 2040, respectively.
Nissan says that solid-state batteries will help make EVs more affordable by reducing the price of battery packs down to $75 per kWh by 2028. The company aims to bring it further down to $65 per kWh to achieve cost parity between EV and gasoline vehicles in the future. To underline its commitment to an electric future, Nissan revealed a handful of EV concepts: a small pickup truck called Surf-Out; a boxy crossover called Hang-Out; a compact SUV called Chill-Out; and a convertible sports car called Max-Out. [...] It's an impressive commitment, but Nissan notably stopped short of making the same promise that other automakers have to phase out the production of gas-powered vehicles. For example, Volvo and General Motors have vowed to become EV-only companies by 2030 and 2040, respectively.
We'll see (Score:4, Insightful)
At least in the US, I put them right behind Mitsubishi in the "least likely to be here in 2 years" category.
A once great Japanese brand that made (you can fill in the blank).
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That's because Mitsubishi makes one of the most lovable and capable droids of all time: ref [youtu.be]
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240Ze
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Probably depends where you live in the US, but personal observation shouldn't be relied upon for what is popular or not. Nissan is 5th in the pack for Q3 2021 sales according to this source: https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/... [goodcarbadcar.net]. Cadillac and Buick brands are much, much, more likely to disappear than Nissan.
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I really like Jeep because they really have a huge aftermarket for them. The only thing I hate about jeep is their motors. They are absolute garbage.
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I get the impression that Nissan is much less popular in the US than in Europe and Japan. Nissan also has a big presence in China.
Re: We'll see (Score:3)
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To an extent, this is already the case with traditional car manufacturers. All the pieces come from a few big car parts makers (biggest is Aptiv in US). You can buy nearly the entire car in OEM parts and put your metal foil around.
Re: We'll see (Score:2)
Re: We'll see (Score:1)
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You need to know that Tesla has a large factory in China which makes about half their cars. This gives them access to lithium, batteries and low cost labor.
I do agree that the Chinese will be invading world markets with their EVs, some of which are quite good. These will probably be the knockout blow for GM, Ford, and Chrysler..
Re: We'll see (Score:1)
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That's been happening for decades already. Car manufacturers rely on a large number of part suppliers, so e.g. many vehicles have the same Bosch parts in them, perhaps with a slight firmware tweak for their particular model.
Many manufacturers share entire models. The same car gets sold under different brands in different markets. Same parts, often the same factory, just a different badge.
"Zero emission" platform (Score:2)
I'm surprised that Nissan even has this kind of cash to throw around.
The EV platfrom, "Zero Emission" has been co-developed with and co-oewned by Renault for a couple of decades.
Under the Renault brand, this platform has been among the top-selling EV in Europe (basically the top-selling in a lot of Euorpean countries, except for a few where Tesla is).
You see a lot of Renault Zoé (the Euro cousin of Nissan's Leaf) everyday on European roads.
EV Minivan are also quite used by some utility and local delivery companies.
And all these EVs on the road are definitely bringing
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Does not surprise me at all to learn that Mitsubishi is making launch vehicles - they build all kinds of heavy (like really heavy) equipment already. Launch vehicles is not that much of a stretch.
Wait for the detractors (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Wait for the detractors (Score:4, Insightful)
And the "my use case doesn't work so they're stupid" cases keep getting more extreme, along with the budget showing that they're not in the market for a new car to begin with.
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Well Nissan was there at the very start. They had the first mass market EV, and built the first charging networks. The Leaf was the best selling EV until a couple of years ago.
Going forward I'd like to see them build on that success. What made the Leaf great was that it was affordable, so the up front cost was offset by fuel and maintenance savings fairly quickly. It was also innovative - Nissan really thought about the needs of EV drivers, with the layout of the instrument cluster and a sat nav with EV spe
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What made the Leaf great was that it was affordable, so the up front cost was offset by fuel and maintenance savings fairly quickly.
All that savings went out the window if you kept the car until the poorly implemented battery cooling system (if you could even call it that) did its dirty deed. Before all this Covid pricing craziness, Leaf resale value was in the toilet, because they all suffer from far more rapid range degradation than BEVs with liquid cooled batteries.
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The Leaf was passively cooled, which seems to have caused problems for a significant proportion of used cars, but by no means all.
Active air-cooling works very well -- the Renault Zoe has this, and has had none of the Leaf's issues with battery SoH.
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The battery was fine. There were some early issues but many other manufacturers, including Tesla, had those too.
The lack of thermal management only became an issue with the 40kWh models. It's a shame because they did actually have a thermal management solution that they installed on the eNV2000 vans, but for some reason the Leaf didn't get it.
The new Ariya has it and presumably all their vehicles will going forward.
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I don't know what's worse at this point. The odd-ball use cases that actually do sometimes happen, or the fact that so many people that don't live in wide open states are angry that those exceptional use cases exist.
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About 36% of Americans are renters. Not being able to install a charger isn’t really what I’d call an oddball use case.
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Let's see how long it takes for someone to post the inevitable "I regularly drive 600 miles in the snow, towing a boat, and I don't have time to stop to charge, so electric cars will never work"....
Coworker today told me he drove 14 hours from Tennessee to home in his Tesla. It took so long, he said, because he had to charge his vehicle so often. Between the cold temperatures and having to run the heater for everyone in the vehicle, he didn't get his usual mileage on a charge.
Yes, yes, edge case, but there are certainly many others in similar situations. Charging times and slave labor for elements needed for the vehicles are the biggest challenges for EVs.
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Hard to tell what that means, since no one reading that knows how far he drove to get home (unless your co-worker is reading it)
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It's not that nobody can put an electric motor in a car.
It's that only Elon Musk could do that. Actual car companies, companies that build and sell millions of cars every year and have been doing so for decades, couldn't possibly build a car with a motor in it.
Despite Elon Musk saying that's precisely the problem that Tesla has, they know how to dream up ideas but don't know about manufacturing. Elon is an idiot for saying they are looking to partner with car makers, companies that actually know how to -
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Tesla currently makes about a million cars a year with profit margins of 30%.
ICE makers only know how to make ICE cars. Their attempts to make EVs have been pathetic (expensive, poor performance, poor design). My seven year old Tesla is better than any new EV from any other ICE maker.
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because only Elon Musk could ever do that, despite what he keeps saying.
Want to try that in English?
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Let's me break it into two sentences for you:
Only Elon Musk could ever do that. Despite the fact Musk keeps saying otherwise.
Better? In other words:
He says he CAN'T do it well and he wants to partner with a manufacturer who CAN, a company that manufactures cars at scale. But he's an idiot for saying that - in fact he's the only one who make cars and put motors in them.
Is that more clear for you?
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Let's see how long it takes for someone to post the inevitable "I regularly drive 600 miles in the snow, towing a boat, and I don't have time to stop to charge, so electric cars will never work"....
Well, there is that. There's also the problem of mining all the material needed for the batteries. If I mention the problem of cobalt then someone will come in saying that very little cobalt is needed and/or new chemistry avoids the need for cobalt. I don't care how little cobalt is needed in each car, when multiplied by millions of cars it will be far too much to produce any time soon. If the cars use different chemistry then battery energy density is reduced and with that performance is lost as well.
I
Re:Wait for the detractors (Score:5, Informative)
Nobody cares. There are at least 22 different battery technology patents that the UW licenses, and only 4 of them require cobalt.
Yeah, that's right, want lithium? Cheap lithium is available worldwide, pretty much anywhere with brackish lakes or former brackish lakes. Tons of that, including in America and Canada. It's just not as cheap as that in some countries, but it's still very very cheap.
Stop pretending you know what you're talking about.
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Nobody cares.
That's right, nobody cares. CO2 emissions rank far lower on people's concerns than jobs, food prices, energy prices (which impacts food prices), terrorism, crime, disease, and a POTUS that is going senile before our very eyes. Nobody cares about electric cars. Most people that want a car have one, and they are not likely in a place where they have the luxury to buy an electric car.
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Well, TFG was fired, so nobody expected him to stay sharp.
The export markets care about electric vehicles. You literally are running out of markets to sell non-electric vehicles, including large trucks.
A lot of the things you purport to care about include food (1), energy prices (2), terrorism (3) disease (4) all of which are mostly exacerbated by fossil fuels and climate change. The energy systems of what you think of as weather are fed by emissions - keep pushing energy into them and they get stronger, fl
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TFG? UW? Can you define your terms before you use them? I don't know what they mean from context.
A lot of the things you purport to care about include food (1), energy prices (2), terrorism (3) disease (4) all of which are mostly exacerbated by fossil fuels and climate change
No, they are made worse by energy imports and energy shortages. The USA was exporting energy not so long ago but recently it fell back to being a net importer of energy again. If the USA wants to see lower energy prices, less of our money going to Middle East countries that fund terrorism around the world, less pollution that impacts disease, and lower food prices, then there is an easy fix for that. We co
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will probably last longer
Since nobody knows if they will in fact last longer it's a gamble that many don't have the luxury to take. EVs are still luxury items, even if the price to buy some models would otherwise put them in pricing range not considered a luxury car. This gamble on the longevity of the car means having enough money to buy a new car if the EV doesn't last. There's also the issue of having the luxury of a garage to park the EV to charge it.
Zero CO2 emissions (directly anyway) is icing on the cake.
It's not "icing on the cake", it is the only reason why car makers offer th
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I got 21 years of driving out of both of my and my wife's ICE cars, and just rented an EV to see how easy it was to live my life with one. Gotta say it was a little bit of a pain in the ass for me as an apartment renter, but I would totally buy one as a _second_ car even so. A PHEV on the other hand would fit my needs perfectly in one car as an EV when I'm doing local errands and a good long range car when I'm taking a trip but don't want to rent a gas car to use for non-EV use cases. If I had my own home t
PHEVs for the win. (Score:2)
I believe that we are not far from a PHEV boom. BEVs sell because governments subsidize them. This can be directly in money paid to BEV makers, or indirectly with waivers on taxes, license fees, tolls, and more. PHEVs don't get these same subsidies but they are far more practical in both the utility to the owner and in lowering CO2 emissions.
One big consideration is battery size. A BEV has only the battery so it must have suitable range on one battery charge or it will be difficult to sell. A PHEV allo
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I own a PHEV. Do not buy one.
The space and weight for the second power train means the electric range is abysmal. There's just not that much room for batteries when you have to also fit in an ICE, a fuel tank, a CVT, complex gearing to connect the separate power plants, and so on. You're also carrying around a lot of dead weight, either in the form of an ICE that isn't running or batteries that have been emptied.
The additional complexity means far more does go wrong, and when it does there are far fewer
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The "nowhere to charge overnight" problem is solved far better by paying an electrician $100 to add a plug.
Paying $100 to an electrician isn't going to buy people a parking spot to put that plug.
People that rent, live in small homes, and so on have to park on the street. There's no place to put that outlet where it will be accessible every night, someone else is going to take that spot on occasion. That spot may in fact be taken by some random person with an EV that thinks this is a public charger, or that they can get away with stealing electricity. There's also the problem that the right of way must be kept
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There's no place to put that outlet where it will be accessible every night
Sure there is. You remember parking meters? Put up something roughly similar with a charger in it. The power requirements are not that large, nor are the chargers.
Do a block and you'll make more money that a gas station with a tiny fraction of the installation costs.
The issue of "dead weight" is just BS
Because an ICE that isn't running suddenly has no mass? It affects my battery range every day.
There's more than one way to build a PHEV, and not all of them suck on electric range.
Because physics changes whenever you really want it to?
"We built this PHEV the right way, so the batteries are stored in a pocket dimension to give
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PHEV resolves the main issues people have with a simple BEV which is range and charging time. 30-50 miles of EV range but the flexibility to go further in hybrid mode and fill up at ubiquitous gas stations works for all use cases. The charging becomes easier since the short range means you can plug into a simple 110v outlet at home if you don't want to have a full 220 put in.
The downside, more complex but that is the tradeoff many will make until the range/charge time issues are solved with EVs.
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The downside, more complex but that is the tradeoff many will make until the range/charge time issues are solved with EVs.
The range and charge time issues with BEVs will never be solved.
Batteries have inherent energy density problems, the gap between batteries and hydrocarbons in energy density is two orders of magnitude wide. The efficiency of electric motors vs. the internal combustion may make up for one order of magnitude difference but not two. We can do the math on how big the wires need to be to dump energy into a car as quickly as pouring a hydrocarbon fuel into a tanks and the wires become impractical very quickly.
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BEVs do work if you:
Can afford the average priced new vehicle.
Have an average urban/suburban commute.
Own a home and can install a charger.
Plan to upgrade to a newer vehicle before the batteries experience significant age degradation.
A lot of people meet all those requirements, but not everyone. That’s the crux of the issue - BEVs are part of the solution, but they’re not a “drop-in replacement” for every gasoline powered car on the road.
As to people not having the patience to wait f
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Why apply the gas refuelling paradigm to EV charging? EV charging is fire-and-forget. You plug in and then you go do something else, like sleep (if at home or at a hotel) or work or shop or watch a movie or have a meal. For many tens of millions of people with off-street parking and the ability to fit a charger, EV charging is much *more* convenient than gas refuelling, not less.
Chargers everywhere (Score:2)
Why apply the gas refuelling paradigm to EV charging? EV charging is fire-and-forget. You plug in and then you go do something else,
It might be worth pointing out that in some part of Europe here around (mostly northern/central. South-eastern part is an entriely different story) the solution has been to start offering charging spots in lots of public parking spaces, either at close to electricity costs (Fast DC chargers on lots of Highway rest areas) or as a free perk (IKEA's parking are such an example with free AC charging).
Thus charging isn't an extra chore that needs to be added specially on your schedule - like going to the gas sta
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Yes, I live in the UK and this is exactly what I was getting at
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Indeed - during the so-called "fuel crisis" here in the UK, being able to plug my hybrid in at night meant I didn't need to go queue up for fuel at the station. We went for about 3 weeks without a fill up, after which the "crisis" had abated enough it wasn't an issue any more (although high prices remain even now).
The notion of "self charging hybrid" and "no plugging in so you don't need to slow down" and whatnot is all doublespeak - but they actually seem to believe it. They don't get that the plugging in
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I think it's one of those things where the lived experience really matters. Till you try it, if you're used to the old way, it feels scary. But then, like mobile banking, it just becomes quietly, obviously, better
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For many tens of millions of people with off-street parking and the ability to fit a charger
For on-street parking, someone is going to make a fortune installing chargers that resemble parking meters. They don't really need that much power, nor is the install anywhere as complicated or expensive as a gas station.
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For example, Ubitricity
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EV charging is fire-and-forget. You plug in and then you go do something else, like sleep (if at home or at a hotel) or work or shop or watch a movie or have a meal.
I'm considering an EV myself, eventually, but I do so knowing that it will result in longer travel times. It does no one any good to set up false expectations. True, for general commuting around town I can charge at home and avoid the refueling / recharging times altogether. That's definitely a plus, though the savings in cost and environmental impact from replacing my local driving alone would be minimal. (Before COVID-19 lockdowns and remote work I typically only filled up about once per month; now it's m
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For a non-American, the weirdest thing here, is that you think it's just fine to drive for six hours with only a ten minute break. I know this is normal for a large number of Americans, but it's so damn dangerous. Here in the UK, the Highway Code states: ...
"Driving when you are tired greatly increases your risk of collision. To minimise this risk
plan your journey to take sufficient breaks. A minimum break of at least 15 minutes after every two hours of driving is recommended"
No such laws in Iowa, but you c
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A lot of people taking a long drive for vacation have multiple drivers. I do 10 hour drives from time to time and have never done it without at least one other driver, last time there was 4 of us so nobody drove more than once that day (and on the way back).
Had we had to charge an EV, there is no way we do that drive in one day, it would have taken at least two.
Charge time is the larger issue with EVs now, the range problem has been pretty much resolved.
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Sure, but the OP said they were doing all the driving themselves. But anyway, I think it's a peculiarly American habit to drive for six or ten hours without more than a ten minute break. Everywhere else, people want to stop for a meal and a rest. And that's when you do your charging. For example, I drove five hours from London to rural Wales in the summer, and it was 5 rather than 4 because we stopped for lunch along the way, and charged at the same time. Car was ready before we were.
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And driving for 6hours with just a 10 minute break is ...
The phrase you're looking for is "completely normal". Obviously you shouldn't drive tired, but no one stops every two hours without a very good reason. If anything, that would mean you're more tired by the time you reach your destination, due to the increase in trip duration. Entering and leaving the highway, and navigating an unfamiliar town, also present more hazards than straightforward highway driving, so unnecessary detours should be discouraged. In any case a short break will not notable increase aler
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1. Let's see, shall I take the advice of Jesse from Slashdot about what constitutes safe driving practice, or the guidance of the Highway Code, which is the relevant authority here in the UK (and whose recommendations align with those of the relevant authorities in Jesse's home state). Unsurprisingly, I'll go with the authorities, who have mine and other road users' safety at heart, unlike Jesse, who is focused on Jesse's convenience, and is creating post hoc rationalisations for why ackshully iT's sAFeR iF
high tech 2 seat pickups (Score:5, Interesting)
It's interesting to me at least that it's difficult to find a fully equipped small pickup that is not a crew cab/4 door model. I don't think the Ford Ranger comes in a 2 door model. Same thing for the Honda Ridgeline. Nissan's 2022 Frontier line has exactly 1 starting point that is not crew cab, and that one is not particularly well equipped/doesn't have much options.
I've never understood the appeal of 4 door pickups, since you trade bed capacity. As my late brother the carpenter used to say, "If you can't haul 4x8 plywood, it's not a truck, it's a toy."
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Just get one of those models and an arc welder for the back set of doors -- zap, 2-door model. :-)
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I've never understood the appeal of 4 door pickups, since you trade bed capacity. As my late brother the carpenter used to say, "If you can't haul 4x8 plywood, it's not a truck, it's a toy."
I'll mention that, a while ago, I had a friend with a 4-door pickup (F-150 I think) *and* and full-size bed. Parking that thing, especially in a public garage, was a huge hassle. It definitely wouldn't fit in his home garage.
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But seeing so many pickups with low profile tires and expensive paint jobs makes it obvious that quite a few of them are not purchased for doing work.
That’s because a pickup truck is actually a farm vehicle, and most people aren’t farmers. Many tradesmen actually prefer cargo vans for real work, because it’s a lot easier to get at various tools and parts from a cargo area when it’s basically a walk-in closet on wheels.
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And with a cargo van, your tools are protected from rain, snow and sub-human thieves.
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I don't think the Ford Ranger comes in a 2 door model.
"If you can't haul 4x8 plywood, it's not a truck, it's a toy."
First yes the ranger comes in a variety of body types including 2 door https://www.ford.com.au/build-... [ford.com.au] the new version which I understand will be offered around the world will come in all those varieties https://www.ford.com.au/showro... [ford.com.au]
4 door pickups serve 2 purposes extra space for passengers also quite commonly a lockable compartment for valuable tools ask any tradie and they will all have a story of tools stolen of the back of the truck. Also most people don't need to haul 4x8 plywood all the time an
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You can't leave tools in the truck period unless you park it in a garage, but people who make their living with tools and a truck usually have a garage full of stuff. If you put them in the back seat then attackers will simply break a window to steal them. Then you have your tools stolen AND a broken window.
If this isn't true where you are, get ready. It will be.
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I don't know what kind of third-world country you live in, but that's not normal around here. Do you live in the U.S.A.? Because a third-world country is where people need to steal to afford hospital bills.
UK users of Slashdot have commented on numerous occasions that they can't even have pickups in general and use vans instead because theft from pickup beds is so common. And they have socialized medicine. I'm in favor of single-payer health care, but maybe there's something else going on here besides that.
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I've never understood the appeal of 4 door pickups, since you trade bed capacity. As my late brother the carpenter used to say, "If you can't haul 4x8 plywood, it's not a truck, it's a toy."
That's because trucks are now luxury rides for suburban families to drive to the school and mall and not work vehicles
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Too little way too late! (Score:1)
You can't export to EU Canada without EV versions (Score:4, Interesting)
What most isolated Americans don't get is that the world doesn't care about them any more.
They're far more interested in the much larger all-electric vehicle requirements of the EU and Canada (as well as other nations like Norway), who won't let you export fossil fuel only vehicle fleets.
Wake up and smell the 2020s, y'all
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Mess with that and you are likely to be voted out promptly.
Indeed. It seems far too many people don't grasp the power of the voter. There is no "just make X illegal" and making that last more than two years. People made a big deal of Trump reversing Obama's executive orders, but executive orders are written on sand. If one POTUS can make something happen then the next one can make it stop. Real change needs to come from voters and consumers, not from the government. Congress can make a lot of things happen but that won't work if the people that have to live w
Where does electricity come from? Raw material? (Score:1)
For electric cars to replace fossil fuels we need to get this energy from somewhere. Gasoline isn't just an easy way to store and transport energy, it is a source of energy. We are going to choose a source that is plentiful, low cost, safe, and reliable. That means if we don't get the electricity from fossil fuels then it will be from nuclear fission. You don't want nuclear fission power plants? Well, you are going to get them anyway.
The current costs of energy from rooftop solar and offshore wind is a
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I think you'll find the electricity distribution networks will be the problem,
I doubt it. Of all the things that come out of the BEV fanbois one thing that seems to hold up to scrutiny is that the grid can take it. We'll need to have some means to encourage delayed charging to make it work but that's a solved problem. The grid is built so people at home can all fire up their oven on Thanksgiving to cook a turkey, and an EV charger takes about the same power but at a different time of day. The incentives will be like paying people for having delayed air conditioning when demand i
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"Where does electricity come from?"
Look at a map of our solar system. See that freakin' giant burning ball in the middle? That has enough power to completely incinerate our whole planet to a crisp right down to the core, a billion times over.
That's where all our energy has come from so far. ALL of it.
And not a single one of them a simple city car (Score:2)
All of them have too much trunk, are too large, have too much frill, too much ground clearance.
Why do all these car companies insist on making foolish expensive cars? Why are they (clearly) painted curvy body panels?
I get that there are guys who need to compensate for tiny packages with big cars, but why do ALL of the cars need to be for the poorly-endowed?
A good electric city car needs a tiny turning radius, a tall passenger/cargo section, lots of glass. It doesn't need heavily sloped windshields because
Watch for the 20% Pop (Score:2)
If the Ariya is a signal, expect the pre-sales MSRP to be ~20% lower than the MSRP once the vehicle goes on sale. $47k is not $40k.
https://carbuzz.com/news/2023-... [carbuzz.com]