Can VW's Electrify America Make EV Charging Stations a 'Customer Oasis'? (thedrive.com) 85
Tesla has a vast network of over 30,000 superchargers spread across the globe. But there's also already another network of over 730 D.C. charging stations spread across the U.S. by "Electrify America."
Thank Volkswagen, which founded the company as part of a $2 billion agreement to create clean car infrastructure in America after admitting it had cheated on diesel emissions tests, Reuters reported in 2017.
But now they're trying to upgrade the vehicle-charging experience into a "customer oasis," reports The Drive: Chargers are typically out in the middle of nowhere with nothing else to do, not very well lit, use hardware that very much feels like it was the first iteration of something, and are often just not very nice places to be. Electrify America, evidently, knows this and is planning to massively improve the electric car charging experience by appearing to model its new flagship charging stations after something we already know and are comfortable with: gas stations. The new locations are said to be designed aesthetically with its surrounding communities in mind and have been described with words like "customer oasis."
Housing up to 20 DC fast chargers, the new EA stations will feature solar canopies that do double duty in helping provide electricity for the cars and covering customers from the elements, a lot like how most gas stations have roofs. In addition to being part of these new fancy stations right out of the gate, Electrify America says it's also retrofitting similar awnings to 100 existing stations across the U.S., covering 400-500 individual chargers...
Further making these stations a nice place to hang out is the presence of lounges and possibly even EV showcase areas. Ones located at shopping centers may even feature valet charging and curbside delivery services....
As somebody who staunchly believes that the public charging infrastructure is, far and away, the least appealing part of owning a non-Tesla EV, it all looks and sounds very enticing. However, like all big and new things, it'll be coming to the two coastal U.S. regions first. Electrify America's new flagship charging stations will be installed throughout 2022 and 2023 exclusively in California and New York, with the company specifically namechecking Santa Barbara, San Francisco, San Diego, Beverly Hills, Manhattan, and Brooklyn. Existing flagship locations can be found in Baker and Santa Clara, California.
Newsweek adds that the company "will also expand the deployment of battery energy storage systems to 150 sites. These systems store energy when electricity costs are low and deploys it to supplement a surge in a station's overall energy demand."
Thank Volkswagen, which founded the company as part of a $2 billion agreement to create clean car infrastructure in America after admitting it had cheated on diesel emissions tests, Reuters reported in 2017.
But now they're trying to upgrade the vehicle-charging experience into a "customer oasis," reports The Drive: Chargers are typically out in the middle of nowhere with nothing else to do, not very well lit, use hardware that very much feels like it was the first iteration of something, and are often just not very nice places to be. Electrify America, evidently, knows this and is planning to massively improve the electric car charging experience by appearing to model its new flagship charging stations after something we already know and are comfortable with: gas stations. The new locations are said to be designed aesthetically with its surrounding communities in mind and have been described with words like "customer oasis."
Housing up to 20 DC fast chargers, the new EA stations will feature solar canopies that do double duty in helping provide electricity for the cars and covering customers from the elements, a lot like how most gas stations have roofs. In addition to being part of these new fancy stations right out of the gate, Electrify America says it's also retrofitting similar awnings to 100 existing stations across the U.S., covering 400-500 individual chargers...
Further making these stations a nice place to hang out is the presence of lounges and possibly even EV showcase areas. Ones located at shopping centers may even feature valet charging and curbside delivery services....
As somebody who staunchly believes that the public charging infrastructure is, far and away, the least appealing part of owning a non-Tesla EV, it all looks and sounds very enticing. However, like all big and new things, it'll be coming to the two coastal U.S. regions first. Electrify America's new flagship charging stations will be installed throughout 2022 and 2023 exclusively in California and New York, with the company specifically namechecking Santa Barbara, San Francisco, San Diego, Beverly Hills, Manhattan, and Brooklyn. Existing flagship locations can be found in Baker and Santa Clara, California.
Newsweek adds that the company "will also expand the deployment of battery energy storage systems to 150 sites. These systems store energy when electricity costs are low and deploys it to supplement a surge in a station's overall energy demand."
Middle of nowhere? (Score:2)
This doesn't jibe with my experience. Most of the public chargers I've seen have been next to shopping centers, nicer motels, etc. Locally we've got some next to a public park and boat launch. It's not where you'd typically go to get gas, but it's right next to the Main St. shops too so it's definitely not the middle of nowhere. I've never seen a charger on a sketchy pull-out off the Interstate, whereas I've seen plenty of gas stations like that.
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"This doesn't jibe with my experience."
This fraudster-firm doesn't do it for the customers nor for themselves, a judge forced them to do it as punishment.
Re: Middle of nowhere? (Score:2)
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Goes to show. $2B for 730 stations when Tesla has over 15x that amount in N. America. Also, want to find some amazing restaurants and spots to visit? Check where the superchargers are at. Whomever Tesla has in selecting where to build chargers should be given a raise. They are almost always near some cool spot to check out.
Hope they put them in hotels and motels. After I go electric, those are the places I will stay.
Re: Middle of nowhere? (Score:2)
Huh? A judge forced Tesla to install chargers based on its half-decade old âoeself drivingâ fraud? Wow!
What a perverse incentive⦠reminds me of the time that literally every oil-guzzling auto maker was passing emissions testing by performing well during the test itself. I feel like I remember one of them being caught before the others and taking a bigger PR hit as a result. Eh, it was a long time ago⦠maybe just before the self-driving fraud started⦠around 2015, s
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Huh? A judge forced Tesla to install chargers based on its half-decade old âoeself drivingâ fraud? Wow!
He meant Volkswagon, I think. They are doing electric chargers and vehicles as part of their fraud reparations.
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The funny thing about the Volkswagon emissions "Cheating" is if Volkswagon can change their Engine Control module mapping to game an emissions test, then they can change their ECM maps when they enter California and when they leave. In some parts of the country the ECM maps can be economy optimized and in other parts emissions optimized.
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The funny thing about the Volkswagon emissions "Cheating" is if Volkswagon can change their Engine Control module mapping to game an emissions test, then they can change their ECM maps when they enter California and when they leave.
They could physically do that, they have enough hardware in the car. But that would be a defeat device. A vehicle registered in California is required to follow a certain emissions regime, it has literally nothing to do with where in the country it is operating. Likewise, a vehicle registered in another state is not required to follow California's emissions laws, unless they are one of the other states that cares at least slightly about health and the future, and therefore sets their standards based on Cali
Re: Middle of nowhere? (Score:1)
The VW in California standards consume more gas and have lower performance, therefore emitting more and costing more and causing more harm to the environment and people. But they donâ(TM)t emit a certain type of gas, so California lawmakers are happy. Laws are generally a bad way of doing greenwashing.
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The VW in California standards consume more gas and have lower performance, therefore emitting more and costing more and causing more harm to the environment and people. But they donÃ(TM)t emit a certain type of gas, so California lawmakers are happy.
The California standards increase CO2 and decrease NOx. We care about NOx because before we controlled it, it was causing bleeding lesions on children's lungs in Los Angeles. Most people think that was a serious problem, but not you?
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Every Tesla Supercharger I've been to has been in the parking lot of a shopping mall or restaurant, or occasionally a hotel.
Either way there's plenty to "do", although the car charges in like 25 minutes, so it's not like there's time to do much more than pee and grab a bite to eat.
Plus the car has built in Netflix / Hulu / Video games / Steam etc anyway -- nobody charging at a Tesla Supercharger is hurting for something to do.
Putting chargers at self-branded gas station type convenience stores seems like a
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Indeed. I rarely charge anywhere but my own garage. But when I do a road trip, the charging stations are always in nice locations.
It makes sense. Shops and restaurants love the extra business from captive customers with enough disposable income to afford an EV.
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Or captive customers who are lucky enough to be able to afford an EV but now have extra disposable income since they're not wasting it on expensive fuel.
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> I've never seen a charger on a sketchy pull-out off the Interstate, whereas I've seen plenty of gas stations like that.
Just recently I was on a trip through New Jersey and visited a DCFC at a rest stop off the Garden State Parkway. One of those locations that's between the opposite directions of highway traffic. Wasn't that bad honestly.
Plan B for that trip, should I not have been able to charge there for whatever reason, was a public DCFC station located behind a warehouse off a secondary road, at le
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Love's does tend to be middle of nowhere, but it's also already a customer oasis. It's usually a full-blown truck stop with all kinds of food, even hot showers. It doesn't cater to the well heeled though. Love's partners with Whole Foods to create an organic aisle? Problem solved, LOL.
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This doesn't jibe with my experience. Most of the public chargers I've seen have been next to shopping centers, nicer motels, etc. Locally we've got some next to a public park and boat launch. It's not where you'd typically go to get gas, but it's right next to the Main St. shops too so it's definitely not the middle of nowhere. I've never seen a charger on a sketchy pull-out off the Interstate, whereas I've seen plenty of gas stations like that.
Pretty much this. The closest charging station to me has food to go or sitting down, snacks, clean rest rooms that don't smell like year old piss from the last time they were cleaned - when a pipe burst. I have no idea where these middle of nowhere chargers are. Our middle of nowhere doesn't even have electrical power unless a high tension line is running through the area.
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I've never seen a charger on a sketchy pull-out off the Interstate, whereas I've seen plenty of gas stations like that.
What makes a gas station off the highway "sketchy" exactly?
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There's two charging scenarios that need to be addressed.
One is 'charging while you're doing something else.' These need to be standard J1772 plugs 220v/40amp max, and these need to be places where people park for over an hour. So, offices, main street, restaurants, malls, shopping districts, and so on.
The other is 'I'm trying to make a long-haul drive and need a fast DC/Level 3 charge.' These need to be along major highways and thoroughfares, rest centers, and so on, where you take twenty or thirty minu
standard plug is need and no 3rd party repair lock (Score:2)
standard plug is need and no 3rd party repair lockouts
Tesla fails on both points
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> but as to standard plugs, I would ask who that benefits
Well obviously it benefits drivers since it gives them more options.
It also obviously benefits charging station owner/operators, since if there's a standard that works for most/all vehicles they have a larger potential customer base.
It benefits the car manufacturers because the benefits for the owners is so obvious it's almost a requirement anyway: Would YOU buy a car that could only get a special kind of fuel at a handful of proprietary dispenser
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if there's a standard that works for most/all vehicles
There is a standard. In fact, there are several to choose from.
My Tesla comes with adapters, so I can use any charger. That isn't the problem.
The problem is that Tesla chargers don't work with non-Tesla cars. But that isn't because the plug can't connect. It is because the software in the charger only recognizes Teslas.
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> The problem is that Tesla chargers don't work with non-Tesla cars
They're working on it;
https://www.tesla.com/support/... [tesla.com]
The major hurdle is Tesla's charge port is standardized to be on the rear left, but not all EVs have this; Some are on the rear right, some on the front left, front right, or on the nose. Since Tesla stations have such short cables this can make it hard or impossible to plug in without blocking another stall.
=Smidge=
Re: standard plug is need and no 3rd party repair (Score:2)
Having it on the left has always struck me as odd. Iâ(TM)ve seen a lot of chargers next to parallel parking stalls, so having it on the curb side of the vehicle would make more sense (assuming a left-hand drive country). That said, Iâ(TM)m unlikely to ever buy a Tesla due to their abhorrent labour practices, poor quality assurance, and inability to run a proper spares and parts infrastructure.
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Well obviously it benefits drivers since it gives them more options.
It also obviously benefits charging station owner/operators, since if there's a standard that works for most/all vehicles they have a larger potential customer base.
It benefits the car manufacturers because the benefits for the owners is so obvious it's almost a requirement anyway
It's really not obvious to me. My family owns 2 Teslas, soon to be 3, and no other cars. Charge Point and Electrify America are terrible. I hear from others that they are broken a lot. I don't know. My problem with them is that there are too few, while superchargers are otherwise easily available. If Teslas changed to CCS, there would be NO benefit to me. At all. If the other charging networks were competitive to Tesla's then you would have a good point. My point is that until the other networks get their act together, there is no actual benefit to anyone here. Admittedly, I am just talking right not and not looking at the future, and I agree that I am being short sighted. My comment though is more that DC fast charging networks need to step it up before we can really say that standard chargers are "needed." You have a good point about the adapters. Using adapters is not ideal, so I'll give you that.
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In Europe Teslas have to have CCS. Their chargers have the old Tesla connector and CCS.
Tesla also allows other vehicles to charge at some locations. They say that eventually anyone will be able to use all their chargers, regardless of what car they own.
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I agree with the second point, but as to standard plugs, I would ask who that benefits.
There is one standard for gas pump nozzles which fits every vehicle on the road. Why shouldn't electric vehicles have the same?
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After saying all that, all you gave were excuses why there can't be one standard. All I was talking about was the plug itself, the part which goes into the car. There is no logistical reason there can't be on standard.
As for the current issue, there are multiple grades of gas. You select the grade you want. The same could be done for electric charges. If you have a Tesla you press this button, for everything else, that button. You could even automate it. Have a screen ask, "Are you driving a Tesla vehi
Re: standard plug is need and no 3rd party repair (Score:1)
You definitely donâ(TM)t want it up to the consumer to direct the correct current and voltage to be provided, thatâ(TM)s asking for a lawsuit. The analogy with the grades of gas is poor, because unless you select Diesel (which is a different spout size for that exact reason) your gas car will work and fill up in the same amount of time.
With EV youâ(TM)re basically stuck between selecting a 2h fill vs a 12h fill for non-compatible cars. Unless you indeed standardize on voltages and currents, b
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CCS can go up to around 400kW. Well, actually I think it is 500kW now. Which is 1000VDC x 400A or 500A.
Most BEVs canâ(TM)t go that high. In fact, I think there are only one or two that can actually max out current 350kW chargers for any decent amount of time. Neither of Them T
-Matt
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With an EV the standard has to be a pretty precise 3D rendering with very tight tolerances interfacing with a series of prongs that carry stupid high current and communications. On top of all that you have software that talks to the charger and negotiates a charge rate continuously during the charge session.
"Tight tolerances and a requirement for a specified software interface" are problems that exist in other fields too, and have been solved there; USB comes to mind (and it's a LOT more complex than charging protocols, though not as high current of course). The issue to be addressed here is not "it is difficult to standardize and manufacture" (if it was inherently hard to manufacture close-tolerance EV charge connectors, then nobody would be able to make them even for their own fleet - never mind interoperabi
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I can take my Tesla to the Electrified Garage or other third party repair shops. And it's not like the cars really need that much in repairs. We have a Tesla-certified body shop just a few miles from my home.
When Tesla launched the Model S, the only option was CHAdeMO, which was too large and clunky for not enough power. I think we're all glad they didn't go that way. Others could have gone with the Tesla plug, but chose CCS instead, which is almost as clunky as CHAdeMO. So now we have three standards,
Re: standard plug is need and no 3rd party repair (Score:2)
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That has to be the stupid and most arse backwards reasoning I've ever heard. You just said *proprietary* is more open than *open standard* because *proprietary car* also supports *open standard* and damn those other cars that don't work with *proprietary* and instead only support *open standard*.
Like if it were some kind of parallel universe where we only ever wrote the exact opposite of what we mean then you post would make perfect sense, but as it stands it is just objectively stupid.
Customer Oasis (Score:1)
That sure sounds familiar [tollwayoases.com]
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Blackjack and hookers.
Quick charge? Forget the blackjack.
No! (Score:2)
First, because it would violate Betteridge'svlaw of headlines with question marks.
Second, because it's a known fraudster-company, they defrauded millions of Americans and paid billions of fines.
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Every major car company with "clean diesel" was doing the exact same thing.
You mean every German car company? FTFY. American companies weren't caught up in that particular scandal, although they've had plenty of their own emissions cheating scandals. What's special about the VW thing is the number of vehicles affected, and the brazen nature of the cheating.
Only one of them got punished.
Wrong [google.com], and also wrong [google.com]. (yeah, paywalls, but frankly the headlines tell the story here.)
Electrify America? (Score:2)
Not sure it's a good idea to name something that shares the same acronym as Electronic Arts.
Ads (Score:3)
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Make it as fun as you want for me, I just don't want to see anything being advertised or have anything commercial around.
You don't seem to understand how things work [youtube.com].
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Thanks Volkswagen! (Score:3)
Thank Volkswagen, which founded the company as part of a $2 billion agreement to create clean car infrastructure in America after admitting it had cheated on diesel emissions tests.
Thank you Volkswagen for . . . doing what you are legally required to do because you committed fraud in several countries?
Here is what you really need (Score:1)
The concept sounds nice but perhaps ambitious in the wrong ways.
Here's what you really need to create a "charging oasis"
1) Roofs over sets of cars like they said, not just awnings which rain can easily blow around.
2) Space enough around each charger that even the most ineptly parked car will not be blocking another from charging.
3) Clean bathrooms, and by clean I mean you have staff that cleans them at least twice daily.
4) Showers, after all since EV charging takes a little longer why not be able to take a
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Sounds like you are asking for them to install them in Motel parking lots.
The closest one to my Nevada ranch IS in a motel parking lot: Topaz Lodge, on US 395 just about a thousand feet north of the NV/CA border.
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The closest one ... = closest Tesla supercharger site.
Re: Here is what you really need (Score:2)
Not far off (Score:1)
Can you say truck stops
Yeah I kind of modeled some of these items after truck stops, because truck stops are oriented towards drivers who are staying there longer...
But truck stops are oriented towards lots of drivers staying there overnight, whereas electric charging stations are for drivers who have 15 min to 1/2 hour to kill.
Also, truck stops are generally a bit more seedy but my goal with what I am proposing, is an upscale rest point, way above highway rest stops and truck stops in terms of cleanliness
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BUT, in the end, truck stops are located EXACTLY where the EVs need to go as well. Basically, on the outskirts of cities and then 1 or more until the next city. They are also space around 50-100 miles apart, and most have hotels nearby. Point is, Tesla and others would be smart to cut deals with large trucks stop chains and focus on helping them clean up their acts for regular travelers.
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I think a lot more are also needed inside cities as well (for apartment people that have to go somewhere once a week to charge, like a laundromat kind of), but I totally agree with your idea that truck stops that exit now would all be awesome locations for EV charging and they should clean them up a bit and parter with a charging company.
It's true not all of them are that bad, I've stopped at a lot on road trips that were OK.
Feeding stations... (Score:2)
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There are two types: The Tesla connector, used by Tesla. And the CCS connector, used by everyone who is not Tesla. There's also the older CHAdeMO, but that's been mostly displaced as the industry (except Tesla) standardises on CCS. But it gets worse: CCS comes in type 1 and type 2, which are sort of compatible-ish... and then there is J1772, which is what CCS is based on, but J1772 doesn't support DC power.
But electricity is electricity, so with an appropriate adapter cable it is possible to convert between
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Because of sales of the Leaf, there are probably more cars with Chademo connectors than cars with CCS connectors on the road.
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Tesla moved to the CCS standard everywhere but the US. I'm in Australia, and my model 3 is CCS. It's nice, because I can charge the car at pretty much any other charging network without an adapter. And elsewhere in the world (Norway and France), Telsa is opening up its (CCS-based) supercharging network to non-Tesla EVs.
Not saying that Tesla did this altruistically. It was mandated in Europe that all EVs use the CCS standard.
One of those cases where gov mandates are actually a good thing. Consumers (bot
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Yah. The connector standard has settled down, which is good. Chargers are typically only able to do AC or DC anyway, not both. CCS on the vehicle allows both J1772 (AC only) and also has the extra pins for high amperage DC.
L1 (120VAC) 11-16A (in vehicle charger)
L2 (240VAC) 24-80A (in vehicle charger)
L3 (was never implemented)
Fast DC charging, direct DC to battery, dynamically managed up to 1000VDC and 500A.
Limited by the lower of what the external unit can supply and the vehicle can accept.
Chademo is bei
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Yes, but nobody fast DC charges to 100%. The charge rate drops modestly past 60% and precipitously above 80%. So people only charge to 60-80% and no more. Usually 30-40 minutes max. And if your final destination is close and destination charging is available, only enough to get there. So for trips just beyond the vehicle range, the charging stop can be very short, like 10-15 minutes.
At home, or at a destination, people will charge to 100% overnight if they will be taking a long trip the next day, and o
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Not interested (Score:2)
I'm an Electrify America customer when I take my Mustang Mach E on road trips. In the year I've had my car, I've used it for about 10 round trip road trips for which charging on the trip was required (the vast majority of 12,000 miles I have on it now are local use, where I do the logical thing and charge at home during the night when rates are cheap).
I love Electrify America as it is, other than the price (but, hey, they have to make a profit, and my at home charging makes up for the 43 or so it costs on t
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> You know what I'd really like instead? More parallel circuits and better heat control, so I can charge at 300kw instead of 150, or at least 150 the whole time. Or even at 600kw. I want gas station speed, not a reason to hang around.
Okay well, that's going to be a function of the car more than the charging station. A station could be built to accommodate just about any power.
For what it's worth, back of the envelope calculation says the throughput of a gasoline dispenser pump is about 20,000kw. Of cours
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Yeah, charging speed is obviously car dependent. I'm sorry anyone is inferring otherwise.
It's Dearborn, Michigan, to Louisville, KY in my example, and it's two charging stops at approximately 45 minutes each. Plus a half hour in case I have to wait for someone else to finish. And it's round trip, so I can't arrive empty, because Louisville doesn't have any fast chargers that aren't Tesla only, which usually means a quick trip across the river to the Walmart in Indiana for a third stop.
I also drive my car li
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The Mach-e has a particularly weird charging curve that falls of a cliff way too early. Make sure you get all software updates and stay on top of the news, itâ(TM)s something that Ford has slowly improved over time but I donâ(TM)t think they have completely fixed it yet.
-Matt
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I apologize for the (TM) junk. I donâ(TM)t know why the iPad is doing that. It isnâ(TM)t in my edit box.
-Matt
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It's a thing Safari (and on iOS, all browsers are Safari) does. There may be an option somewhere that you can turn off for "smart quotes" or "smart punctuation". Apparently Apple doesn't understand that outside of a word processor, you want the keycodes you requested to be faithfully represented.
lets do hydrogen instead! (Score:1)
Seems like a more sustainable option for the future.
Nothing says progress . . . (Score:2)
like spending 30 minutes waiting to be able to get your car back on the road when it used to take 5 minutes.
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I've looked at the charger maps, I'd have to pray the vehicle could make 350 minus any added drain from going over mountains before I reached a charging station, if I were to go visit my mother in the same state. On the way back I better pray I could make it entirely home because there's no charger after that one I mentioned, on the return trip.
Is Sheetz an oasis? (Score:1)
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I used a sheets on 301 in Virginia near the Dalhgren naval station and it had a bunch of tesla charging stations. I think it was just Tesla charging. Eh? It's not the Ritz. However it's not a 1950s gas station either. There's food, bathrooms and such. So I suppose it is an oasis in a desert sense.
How long would a tesla take? If they could get sub 5 minute recharging that would be great.
How about at highway rest areas? (Score:2)
Why not install charging stations at highway rest areas?
They already are set up for taking a break on long trips along the interstates and many other highways: Potty, picnic area, vending machines. Spaced closely enough to handle recharging the driver and passengers, which is closer than needed for recharging the cars. Typically including one a few miles outside each major city on the route, so arriving travelers can stretch their legs and spiff up before arrival - which would make charging available to
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Iâ(TM)m sure it is looked at. The bigger fast DC chargers have to be located near fairly hefty distribution lines (several thousand volts AC is preferred), in order to be able to situate a sufficient number of DC supplies at a location. A DC fast charger outputs 300VDC to 1000VDC based on the vehicleâ(TM)s battery pack requirements, and up to 500A. All dynamically controlled via continuous communication with the vehicle.
-Matt
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EV charge points already nearing fuel pump count? (Score:2)
Given that most (estimates seem to usually be around 90%) EV charging is at home and we're already over 2 million EVs on the road in the US, I'd bet EV charge points are already nearing the total pump count. Can't find numbers but guessing that the 150,000ish fuel stations in the country average 10 pumps a piece, that's only 1.5 million pumps. If only 75% of the people with EVs have a charge point at home for their EV, that would be 1.5 million by itself. So we're likely well on the way to surpassing the pu
shopping centre oasis (Score:2)
The oasis already exists along with open space for solar panels.
Shopping centre car parks.
Cars will be parked for enough time for a good charge, a car park full of car batteries will provide stability for the shopping centre power supply and feeding out into the grid, shade and weather protection.
It's a win win