War in Ukraine Brings Explosions at Europe's Largest Nuclear Plant (cnn.com) 170
For months international experts worried about "a sprawling nuclear power plant on the banks of Dnipro River in southern Ukraine," reports CNN.
"Then, on Friday, explosions rang out at Zaporizhzhia nuclear power complex, the biggest of its kind in Europe, reigniting fears of a potential disaster." Moscow and Kyiv have accused each other of shelling the plant, which was taken over by Russian forces in early March, along with the town of Enerhodar, where the complex is located. CNN was unable to verify claims of damage at the plant, which occupies a large site. Much of the recent Russian fire in the area has originated from near the plant and it is unclear if parts of the nuclear facility were hit accidentally.... The Russian defense ministry added that the generating capacity of one unit at the plant had been reduced, and power supply to another cut....
When fierce fighting first broke out near the facility in the early days of the war, it sparked fears of a nuclear incident and prompted condemnations from the international community. Russian troops forced its managers to work "at gunpoint" after seizing the plant on March 5, according to Ukrainian nuclear officials. A week later, the Kremlin sent officials and technicians from Russia's state nuclear agency to help conduct repairs and manage the facility. Ukrainian and Russian staff have been working alongside each other since, and communication with the outside world has been intermittent.
Ukraine's state-run nuclear power operator, Energoatom, said Friday that Russian shelling had hit in and around the nuclear complex and damaged a water intake facility, cutting power and water to much of Enerhodar. "Three hits were recorded directly at the site of the station," the Ukrainian agency said, claiming that one was "near one of the power units where the nuclear reactor is located...."
Energoatom said on Saturday that the plant was operational and Ukrainian staff at the station continued to work to ensure radiation safety. Ukrainian prosecutors have opened an investigation into the incident.
Tuesday the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency warned that the plant "is completely out of control," adding "Every principle of nuclear safety has been violated.... What is at stake is extremely serious and extremely grave and dangerous." But CNN adds that "Other officials have been more measured, pointing to the fact that recent nuclear energy facilities are designed to withstand terrorist attacks and natural disasters.
"Several Western and Ukrainian officials believe that Russia is now using the giant nuclear facility as a fortress to protect their troops and stage attacks, because they assume Kyiv will not retaliate and risk a crisis."
"Then, on Friday, explosions rang out at Zaporizhzhia nuclear power complex, the biggest of its kind in Europe, reigniting fears of a potential disaster." Moscow and Kyiv have accused each other of shelling the plant, which was taken over by Russian forces in early March, along with the town of Enerhodar, where the complex is located. CNN was unable to verify claims of damage at the plant, which occupies a large site. Much of the recent Russian fire in the area has originated from near the plant and it is unclear if parts of the nuclear facility were hit accidentally.... The Russian defense ministry added that the generating capacity of one unit at the plant had been reduced, and power supply to another cut....
When fierce fighting first broke out near the facility in the early days of the war, it sparked fears of a nuclear incident and prompted condemnations from the international community. Russian troops forced its managers to work "at gunpoint" after seizing the plant on March 5, according to Ukrainian nuclear officials. A week later, the Kremlin sent officials and technicians from Russia's state nuclear agency to help conduct repairs and manage the facility. Ukrainian and Russian staff have been working alongside each other since, and communication with the outside world has been intermittent.
Ukraine's state-run nuclear power operator, Energoatom, said Friday that Russian shelling had hit in and around the nuclear complex and damaged a water intake facility, cutting power and water to much of Enerhodar. "Three hits were recorded directly at the site of the station," the Ukrainian agency said, claiming that one was "near one of the power units where the nuclear reactor is located...."
Energoatom said on Saturday that the plant was operational and Ukrainian staff at the station continued to work to ensure radiation safety. Ukrainian prosecutors have opened an investigation into the incident.
Tuesday the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency warned that the plant "is completely out of control," adding "Every principle of nuclear safety has been violated.... What is at stake is extremely serious and extremely grave and dangerous." But CNN adds that "Other officials have been more measured, pointing to the fact that recent nuclear energy facilities are designed to withstand terrorist attacks and natural disasters.
"Several Western and Ukrainian officials believe that Russia is now using the giant nuclear facility as a fortress to protect their troops and stage attacks, because they assume Kyiv will not retaliate and risk a crisis."
The story is very short (Score:2)
The story is very short: what does russia do on the soil of the foreign state?
What competences, and exactly why, it has decided to bring in there?
Get out right now, form of the shit.
Re:The story is very short (Score:5, Informative)
Russia has long established itself as the Tommy Boy of all countries.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Incompetent as fuck, and when they fuck something up, as they inevitably do, they blame it on somebody else.
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Nope, that's the ache-typical Anglo-Saxon character.
Bojo and G walkin bush come to mind specifically.
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I think you need to differentiate between the Russian government and the Russian people. Some of the best people I have worked with over the years have been Russians living abroad, highly skilled, professional and very modest.
Those are the Russians that got away. I also worked with Russians that were skilled and professional but they were no longer in Russia. It appears that people with the intelligence to be skilled engineers and scientists are also the people that have the intelligence to know when and how to get out of a country before everything turns to shit.
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I think you need to differentiate between the Russian government and the Russian people. Some of the best people I have worked with over the years have been Russians living abroad, highly skilled, professional and very modest.
Those are the Russians that got away. I also worked with Russians that were skilled and professional but they were no longer in Russia. It appears that people with the intelligence to be skilled engineers and scientists are also the people that have the intelligence to know when and how to get out of a country before everything turns to shit.
I certainly like the Russians I have met. But the Russian Government is what we have to deal with.
It's like saying that there are so many nice Texans, while they arre paying people to do old school soviet style snitching. https://www.breakingthechainsm... [breakingthechainsmag.org]
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And I myself am working with quite a bit of Russian people who live and work abroad. They're not fans of Putin either, which is part of the reason they don't live in Russia.
It's not fair to blame them. But did that happen here? Are the Russian people == the country "Russia"? Because that's what GP criticizes, GP didn't mention the Russian people.
Also deflecting criticism that is pretty clearly aimed
So roll the tapes already (Score:2)
Several Western and Ukrainian officials believe that Russia is now using the giant nuclear facility as a fortress to protect their troops and stage attacks, because they assume Kyiv will not retaliate and risk a crisis."
It shouldn't be hard for spy drones to get enough video of what is going on there to determine who is telling the truth here. I know who I would put my money on.
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Well, duh. Why else would they not want the IAEA to take a peek in?
Re:So roll the tapes already (Score:4, Funny)
Well, duh. Why else would they not want the IAEA to take a peek in?
At first glance I thought you wrote IKEA. :-)
Not sure that would be better/worse for the Russians.
Re:So roll the tapes already (Score:5, Funny)
I fully assembled the reactor, but I have these 6 pegs left over. Safe to turn it on?
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I fully assembled the reactor, but I have these 6 pegs left over. Safe to turn it on?
Those aren't "pegs" the technical term is "control rod" and they're kinda important.
Russia is going to make better reactors than IKEA with prison labour anyway. [themoscowtimes.com]
And when they meltdown, plenty more prisoners for cleanup.
Re:So roll the tapes already (Score:5, Informative)
Here's a video [youtube.com] from March 3rd when Russian troops seized the plant showing them firing into buildings and causing a fire to break out, and here's further analysis [npr.org] of a longer, 4 hour video in which Russian troops fired heavy weapons onto the site, narrowly missing one of the reactors but also causing further damage than was initially reported, all the while refusing Ukrainian firefighters from entering the complex to entinguish the fires.
Meanwhile, the first story on this page [cnn.com] is more video evidence of the Russian takeover wherein Ukrainian operators are telling the Russians to stop firing on the buildings or they risk a nuclear catastrophe.
And to pile on some more, this picture from two days ago [bbc.co.uk] shows a covered Russian tank just outside the fence of the facility.
So yeah, it's easy to know who to put your money on in this situation.
Re:So roll the tapes already (Score:5, Informative)
Even if the Russians have troops inside the plant now, Ukraine shouldn't shell it
Ukraine isn't shelling the plant, that's the point. The Russians have put ammunition, fuel, and vehicles inside buildings within the complex to prevent Ukraine from shelling them. Russia is using the plant as a shield. Meanwhile, Russia is shelling Ukrainian positions and towns from inside the plant knowing Ukraine won't fire back.
Re:So roll the tapes already (Score:5, Informative)
Then who is shelling the plant?
Being an intentional troll, aren't you? Russia is deliberately shelling it as a pathetic attempt to blame Ukraine. Just like Russia is shelling Donetsk city and blaming Ukraine. How do we know Russia is shelling Donetsk? Because they're reporting it.
Just like Russia deliberately killed [nbcnews.com] those Ukrainian POWs. This after a Russian soldier was shown castrating and killing a Ukrainian soldier.
Would you like to troll some more?
Re:So roll the tapes already (Score:5, Informative)
It is possible they are errant Russki shells. Their front line troops are not particularly competent, neither are their commanders, and the Ukrainians have made many of the competent ones go bye-bye. Also, Russia doesn't have particularly good artillery, not the smart weapons the West has been buying.
They don't particularly care if there is a nuclear catastrophe. They sent their own personnel into Chernobyl at the beginning of the war. The plant is on Ukrainian soil. So if it goes poof, they only kill some of their own cattle fodder, Ukrainians, and I suppose some Belarusians, and their leaders don't give a fuck about any of them.
Re:So roll the tapes already (Score:5, Interesting)
This is the kind of shit Russia does all the time. When either they (or the militant group they were backing in Eastern Ukraine) shot down MH17, they blamed it on Ukraine, despite all of the available evidence saying otherwise. Russia later tried to manufacture evidence in support of their cause, including a stupid (and obviously) photoshopped satellite image depicting a Ukrainian fighter aircraft shooting it down.
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Given the quality of Russian equipment and training of their troops, they probably accidentally shelled themselves.
Re: So roll the tapes already (Score:2)
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Nobody believes that Ukraine is shelling the plant. Russia's at the point where it can tell a stupid lie and not even its own citizens believe it, but they still nod and say "sure."
Does Amnesty International have an opinion yet? (Score:5, Interesting)
Iâ(TM)ll be waiting with baited breath on Amnesty Internationalâ(TM)s opinion if this is or is not a war crime.
Does using a nuclear reactor as shield differ from using humans? The downstream effects seem terrible in both casesâ¦
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Iâ(TM)ll be waiting with baited breath on Amnesty Internationalâ(TM)s opinion if this is or is not a war crime.
Does using a nuclear reactor as shield differ from using humans? The downstream effects seem terrible in both casesâ¦
They'll probably blame the Ukrainians for placing a Nuclear reactor next to a Russia military depot and artillery firing range. Just like Ukraine keeps building hospitals on the site of future military bases [twitter.com] and urging civilians in occupied territories to join Russian military barges [twitter.com].
Re:Does Amnesty International have an opinion yet? (Score:5, Insightful)
They don't care if it makes people angry or makes russian propaganda happy.
I don't know about that. I think AI (Amnesty International) might be looking for a new leader in the near future. Credibility is a hard thing to win back once it is lost, and AI's credibility took probably its largest hit in its history due to that report. AI has spent decades building up their credibility so they would be permitted to go into warzones on both sides. I think they did it (published that report) so Russia would let them inspect the Russian run POW camps. But of course, the Russians double crossed them and AI still isn't being allowed to inspect Russian POW camps (the ones run by the Russians, not detaining Russian soldiers). There seems to be a pandemic of naivete going around these days and AI seems to be the latest victim of that. I predict a new slate of AI leaders will be replacing them soon. One of the things about restoring credibility is that you must deliver very harsh justice to those that caused the lost of credibility in the first place. I wouldn't want to have my name on that report.
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Would you like to bet that what you wrote above is true? Before you decide, you might want to take a look at this list of Allied war crimes during WWII. [wikipedia.org]
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Iâ(TM)ll be waiting with baited breath on Amnesty Internationalâ(TM)s opinion if this is or is not a war crime.
You can commit war crimes and be victim of war crimes. There is no paradox here. Some Ukranian soldiers commited war crimes or used a sneaky strategy and Amnesty International reported it,. They don't care if it makes people angry or makes russian propaganda happy.
Does using a nuclear reactor as shield differ from using humans?
I don't know but in both cases Amnesty won't sponsor you for the nobel peace price.
Read the report [amnesty.org]. Just based on the report it sounds like Ukrainian troops are using civilians as human shields and the only reason Russia is shelling Ukrainian cities is because the Ukrainian military is located there.
The fact is that Russia is using civilians as human shields to a far greater extent. Not to mention using Nuclear reactors as a shield, indiscriminate shelling and missile attacks on clear civilian targets, large scale rape, torture, theft, and murder of innocent civilians, the torture, murde
It gets better (Score:5, Informative)
There is now confirmed intelligence showing Russian troops have mined the nuclear plant [twitter.com]. Not only have they mined the plant, they've been shelling power lines and other infrastructure so as to cut off the southern portion of Ukraine from the power grid. This goes along with them mining vital infrastructure [twitter.com] (electricity, gas lines, water, etc) in Kherson and surrounding areas to do a scorched earth policy when they are pushed out.
So not surprising they would be sheling the nuclear plant. Their entire goal is genocide and what better way than to have a large nuclear plant blow up after they leave to kill people and make things uninhabitable.
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Russia's main game plan is to stop Ukraine from developing gas and oil fields in the region, which was a potential competitor to it supplying European market.
They could care less if there's anything left in East Ukraine or not - as long as those gas fields cant get developed.
The only way to stop Russia is to cut it off at the knees - remove all European dependence on it's resources.
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Russia's main goal was to get a buffer between Ukraine and Moscow. Russia is still terribly afraid of NATO. They still see it as an enemy.
After the pro-Russian president Yanukovych was removed from office in 2014 and Russia occupying the Crimea peninsula as a result, the talks between Ukraine and NATO resumed and there was more than a hint that they may actually ponder becoming a member. And this would not be something Russia could accept.
If you look at a topographical map of the area, you'll notice that th
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The Russian anti-NATO doctrine always depended on having a defensible border against them. That was for the longest time the border between West and East Germany. A fairly short border. Everything else was either mountains or neutral countries, or a combination thereof. Ukraine in the NATO would create an insanely long border, with practically indefensible terrain behind it.
So before the war, they had a short little border with Norway. And there were strong objections to its membership by a large percentage of NATO members precisely because Russia's illegal occupation of territory in Ukraine would constitute an act of war against a NATO member, and NATO would be compelled to drive Russia out, should Ukraine join. So there was basically no chance of that happening any time in the foreseeable future.
But in spite of that, Russia's irrational fear drove Russia to take a military
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Yup, it backfired as badly as France's ill advised war with Prussia 1870/71 which led to a reunited Germany under Prussian leadership, which was pretty much the nightmare France feared.
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After the pro-Russian president Yanukovych was removed from office in 2014 and Russia occupying the Crimea peninsula as a result, the talks between Ukraine and NATO resumed and there was more than a hint that they may actually ponder becoming a member. And this would not be something Russia could accept.
Its oversimplified, and it was never an excuse. Everyone in the West knew there was almost no f--king chance they were going accept a kleptocratic nation such as Ukraine as a NATO member. That would mean Ukraine has a vote in what NATO does, just like many other rinky dink Eastern European members that never should have been accepted, as well. It would be like accepting a second Turkey into NATO, and unlike Ukraine, Turkey has huge strategic importance. Since most of NATO's members are European, they ha
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That bar for entry has been lowered to and below the floor when NATO accepted Turkey as a member. That ship has long sailed. I have outlined the strategic importance of Ukraine in the post above, you would pretty much force Russia to pull together a large portion of its ground and air forces to the West whenever you start a "training exercise" in Ukraine simply because they couldn't otherwise even dream about stopping an assault. If you want to bleed Russia dry, that's how you do it.
But yes, I give you the
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I don't think it was one of The Great Putini's original war aims. But look at it from his perspective. The war ain't going so well, surely he can see that. His vaunted military couldn't even take on a small country, albeit with Western aid. But that aid didn't really get going until after his military failed to take the country.
Now he sees Nordstream II canceled, and Europe won't be making the mistake of getting hooked into Russian gas anytime soon. So he wants to make Europe pay. Sooner or later the war wi
Re:It gets better (Score:5, Informative)
His vaunted military couldn't even take on a small country
Ukraine has had the largest army in Europe other than Russia for several years now. Yes, Poland, UK, France or the US would tear the Russians apart in a matter of days but don't get confused and think that Ukraine was an easy target. The Russian military is about 1/3 the size of what it would take to invade and defeat Ukraine. Outside of the US, I'm not sure there is currently a military on the planet that could manage it. Even if Russia was fully mobilized, I don't think they could do it. You are underestimating the insanity of trying to take a country that size (about the size of France or Texas) with a peacetime military.
Also, Russia will be paying to rebuild Ukraine (we seized $400b in Russian assets at the beginning of the war, should be just enough to rebuild Ukraine). So I don't think Putin will accomplish anything from this conflict and will have only succeeded in destroying modern Russia.
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It makes perfect sense. Russia makes a deal with Germany for a natural gas pipeline so they can believe they will have a steady supply of fuel for heating and electricity. This means Germany makes no plans for new nuclear power plants, and close all existing nuclear power plants. The natural gas provides backup power for their wind and solar projects. This means that once the natural gas supply is cut off Germany has no backup plan. They have no fuel for their nuclear power plants, because the plan was
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Some power plants might be able to switch without difficulty but not all.
Least consequential aspect of Russia's invasion. What's slated for completed construction gets abandoned, and what's completed gets mothballed (hopefully not permanently).
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The goal is not to invade Germany but to keep them from coming to Ukraine's aid, or being as effective in providing aid. Make them uneasy about their food and fuel supplies and they will be less likely to stretch them even thinner by calling up reservists (and therefore away from their day job) and putting them in ships, trucks, and tanks to burn up precious fuel in the process. They will also be less likely to send food and fuel into Ukraine so that Ukraine's military can fight Russian forces.
Russia has
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Russia has not been doing well in fighting in Ukraine in part because this tactic didn't stop the shipment of man-portable missiles
Ukrainian mud (formerly "Russian Winter") pretty much guaranteed their offensive was going to be a failure. More important, the Russian military doesn't have this excuse now, in the middle of "summer campaign season".
Another reason Russia has not been effective has been a lack of logistical support.
Just another indication that Russia's Army is a crap-ass joke. Clausewitz could have told them that. In all fairness, Russia's military leadership didn't anticipate for the possibility that they would have to be able to establish reliable supply lines, or that they can't, even though they ar
Re:It gets better (Score:5, Insightful)
He's a ruthless dictator, but give him some credit, Russia's leadership is crazy dangerous, but they aren't stupid.
No I'd say they're pretty stupid. Invading Ukraine is literally the worst thing they could have done, and that's exactly what they did. A much more insidious and meticulous option would have been to declare the Eastern Ukraine region independent like they initially did, and then run a puppet regime there, then gradually expand it. But no, they weren't patient enough for that, they thought they could actually take Kyiv with a heavily concentrated and lightly escorted 40 mile long tank convoy that even a mediocre tank commander would tell you is incredibly stupid.
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Invading Ukraine is literally the worst thing they could have done ...
That depends a lot on what the ultimate aim of Putin and his supporters actually is. If it were prosperity for the people of Russia, then it does look like a bad move. I assume that Putin does not actually give a tinker's cuss about the welfare of the people of Russia, but is intent on consolidating and increasing his power. Given that aim, it might actually make sense to engage in a massively expensive and destructive war, in order to show that you are the boss.
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Invading Ukraine is literally the worst thing they could have done, and that's exactly what they did.
Not stupid may have been the wrong words to use, "not stupid enough to do it over some tiny amount of gas" is what I should have said. Putin has for as long as anyone can remember had an agenda to rebuild the glory days of the USSR. Again this has zero to do with gas, and
A much more insidious and meticulous option would have been to declare the Eastern Ukraine region independent like they initially did, and then run a puppet regime there, then gradually expand it.
That is still the goal. The problem is you need to control an area in order to instate a puppet regime. What Russia miscalculated is a) their own incompetence, b) the strength and will of Ukrainians, and c) the weaponry support from the wes
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No I'd say they're pretty stupid.
Agreed.
Invading Ukraine is literally the worst thing they could have done, and that's exactly what they did.
Eh. Only in hindsight.
But no, they weren't patient enough for that, they thought they could actually take Kyiv with a heavily concentrated and lightly escorted 40 mile long tank convoy that even a mediocre tank commander would tell you is incredibly stupid.
No, a mediocre American tank commander would say its totally doable, since some of their supply lines in Afghanistan resembled "contested" 40 mile supply convoys. It failed because it depended on "surprise" and all army divisions to reach and encircle Kyiv, and that was pretty stupid, although a similar military operation worked for them in 2014.
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C'mon, it's not that hard to deduce if you at least know a bit of Russian strategic military doctrine.
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Remember, it was the FSB, likely at Putin and Yeltsin's direction, that mined the apartment buildings that were blown up in Russia that catapulted Putin to power. FSB were caught in the act and they claimed it was just a drill. It's likely wide spread knowledge inside of Russia but no one dares talk about it.
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It's likely wide spread knowledge inside of Russia but no one dares talk about it.
I've talked to plenty of Russians about this, and no one seems to believe it. There's just no alternative explanation that has any evidence.
I assume Russia is causing the explosions (Score:2)
But the real question is - is it deliberate, or is it simply a result of the widespread incompetence they've demonstrated in pretty much every endeavor they've undertaken in recent memory?
Re: I assume Russia is causing the explosions (Score:2)
Agree it seems like this is on the Russians. But there is just something so illogical about all of it. Ukraine wouldn't shell it because they don't want to run the risk of cutting electricity to Ukrainians that are already suffering enough, and they'd just cause damage that they'll have to repair when the war ends. Or in the worst case scenario they'll be stuck with a fully destroyed/melted down plant.
Meanwhile Russia is already using it as a shield, putting equipment and vehicles in there. So why would the
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In Russia, people capable of making critical analysis and then open their mouths are decreed "Western saboteurs", and then people like you should be able to conclude what happens at that point. This is the "power" of autocracy. You can spew the most ridiculous lies, because anyone bright enough to realize they are lies will most likely become your enemy, which you can then preemptively kill.
Prevailing winds (Score:2)
I call "False Flag" (Score:4, Interesting)
The Russians look like they are using their mercenaries, the Wagner Group, to commit atrocities against Ukrainians. First they killed Ukrainian Prisoners of War and try to blame Ukraine for it, so it's not a stretch that they are doing the same thing at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power complex. I think that if Russia is pushed all the way back towards Crimea, they will also blow up the dam on the Dnipro River, and flood all of the downstream Ukrainian cities like Kherson. Then blame Ukraine.
Following this war, we may see war crimes trials that will be second only to the ones after World War 2 against the Nazis.
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We won't see war crimes trials like with Nazis. There, we had Germany by the balls and their dumb-ass commanders. Here, no one wants Russia. The Great Putini thinks the West wants to own Russia. The West doesn't give fuck about that wreck of a country. It would cost too much to stand it up right and proper. So there won't be any rounding up the fellows who ordered whatever atrocities of which Russia is guilty.
Re: I call "False Flag" (Score:2)
Agreed the west/US has no interest in westernizing Russia, and there is no chance of Russia being invaded (at least not yet), but I think whether there are war crime trials like post WW2 will depend upon the extent of the atrocities. Nazi concentration/death camps were so beyond the pale and their scope so large that the world couldn't look away. Russia has done absolutely horrible things in this war, but the scale of it is different, at least as far as we know with the information we have. As terrible as
Re:I call "False Flag" (Score:5, Interesting)
they will also blow up the dam on the Dnipro River
China would lose their mind if that happened. In 1938 the Chinese nationalists destroyed a dam and flooded their own people. To the CCP this event is the symbol of everything they fought against. If Russia did something similar, the CCP couldn't continue to support them in any form. This event is the cornerstone of CCP propaganda even today. China would be forced to consider Russia an enemy from then on. That would crush Russia and send them back to the 1800s. I wouldn't expect Russia to still be a country in a decade if they actually were foolish enough to destroy the dam on the Dnipro.
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They would just blame it on the other side.
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China seems to have had enough of Russia already. They started requiring proof of ownership for aircraft wanting to fly into China, which seems to be targeted at the aircraft that Russia stole after the war started.
If you aren't familiar, Russian airlines leased a lot of aircraft from leasing companies based in Ireland and the Bahamas. Lots of airlines do it, as an alternative to owning aircraft. When the war started and Russian airlines were unable to pay the leases, they should have returned the aircraft.
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Eventually Putin will be nomore(may be months or years more to go for that), and alot will depend on the next leader of Russia - do they want to start the slow process of trying to rejoin the rest of the world, or will they want to be in a "forever sanctioned state".
If they want to rejoin, they going to fix alot of things they broke in Ukraine, at the very least. Of course Putin may be making it such that the next leader in Russia will have no choice but follow whatever he has started. The more things get s
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If they lose Crimea, it is not hard to imagine that they will continue their "scorched earth" policy that they have been practicing to level Ukrainian cities and towns they don't think they can capture. Blowing up the dam would put Ukraine in a crisis mode and give the Russians time to regroup.If they don't succeed in blaming the Ukrainians, they will say that it was the Wagner Group performing on their own initiative, and thus Russia can condemn them....while paying them for it.
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True, but they would have to blow the dam up from afar as they would loose control over the dam long before they lost control over Crimea.
Hoping for an Eastely Wind (Score:2)
Re:Hoping for an Eastely Wind (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't. That would kill a lot of innocent people, and it would kill a lot of innocent Ukrainians.
There was a Jewish man, Frederick Mayer, who went behind enemy lines with 2 others. He caused the Germans no end of grief. In the end, he was captured and beaten within an inch of his life. But the Americans came and the Germans in the town he was in got nervous and released him, asking him to intercede with the Americans. He did, and negotiated the surrender of the town, which he had no authority to do. Eventually, he is asked by a German commander to visit the German in his prison cell. He tells Frederick, please, do anything you like to me, but spare my family. Frederick looked at him and said, "we are not Nazis", and walked out.
We should not turn into Nazis, regardless of how the Russians have turned themselves into Nazis.
The story is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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Getting back to the current situation, anyone really wanting to do onto the
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It's mostly north to Moscow.
Why are Russian accusations repeated? (Score:3)
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Are you still on the Ghost of Kiev and Snake Island?
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This statement still benefits Putin's propaganda perspective.
Logic is Off (Score:2, Insightful)
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It's not the first time that kind of thing has happened [youtube.com]. Do a search for Russia friendly fire [yahoo.com].
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What are you talking about? The article says three artillery shells hit near the plant.
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How would the Russians soldiers being shelled communicate that fact to the Russian artillery group that is shelling them? You're talking about a military that has its generals targeted for Ukrainian military strikes because they use Baofeng radios to communicate to Russian subordinates in the field..
Dangerous forces (Score:2)
Cute there are even videos of Russian tanks being escorted into buildings on site. Apparently nuclear sites are now the only safe place left in Ukraine for Orcish command posts.
humanity is fucked (Score:2)
We're not gonna make it to 2050 are we? Oh well, humans had a nice run .. building pyramids .. even going to the moon .. movies .. the internet. Some humans did some cool stuff. In the end we couldn't shake off our greed, envy, and apathy.
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That, plus a nuclear Winter, and we just might still reach the climate goals.
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Nope, nuclear winter lasts as long as there are reflective particles in the atmosphere. In a year or two, the utterly vaporized ozone layer and lack of reflective particles will pretty much cook all life. Back when each side had 10K megaton nuclear weapons to throw at each other, the generated radioactive particles may have exterminated all life on earth. But now we're roughly 1/3rd that number, we'll probably only wipe out all human civilization; yeah, we could reach our climate goals at that point...
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Given primitive weaponry, humans could (and often did) only wipe out neighboring tribes. Nowadays, because of nuclear weapons, if a combination of just a few crazy people get into power, we're toast. It's only a matter of time before someone with the personality of Hitler, Idi Amin, Caligula, or Genghis Khan gets control of a nuclear arsenal. Just because we survived until today doesn't mean we can't end tomorrow. The dodo bird lived for thousands of years before it suddenly found itself extinct.
What does Amnesty International have to say.... (Score:2)
Not great... (Score:2)
...not terrible.
Ok, terrible.
something doesn't smell right (Score:2)
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Well, you have a glowing future ahead of you and you needn't worry about the woes of old-age poverty, so what exactly seems to be the problem?
Re: Yay! (Score:2)
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sarcasm, noun
sarcasm | \ sär-ka-zm \
Definition of sarcasm
1: a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain
2: a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual
Re: Yay! (Score:2)
Sadly, there is no smiley for sarcasm.
Re: Yay! (Score:2)
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Re:"Russian" shelling (Score:5, Insightful)
trying to claim that because Russia damaged and caused a fire in an out-building when they seized the nuclear plant initially, that they're somehow responsible for the current attacks on it.
Russia invaded Ukraine. Everything that happens from that point on is Russia's fault.
Everything.
Ukraine's shot hooked, Russia's shot sliced... it does not matter who hits the plant. It is because of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
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Everything.
Well, even if a Ukrainian war crime would not have occurred if Russia didn't invade, doesn't mean Russia is directly responsible for the Ukrainian war crime. People and nations are responsible for what they can control, and the actions they choose to do.
I do agree that Russia is utterly responsible for whatever nuclear disaster occurs from it, because they chose to occupy the nuclear facility for "tactical" advantage, and they could have chose to avoid nuclear facilities instead.
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Yeah, just like Poland did with Germany in 1939...
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Even if the Ukrainians were stupid enough to fire the M142 HIMARS GMLRS munitions they were supplied with at the plant, those things have an accuracy that would enable them to hit one room of a building and not hit another beside it. How do you think they took out the railroad bridge that is only a few meters wide? Two rockets would do it, actually one could probably do it, but you always fire two to make sure!
Unfortunately for the Russians, the Ukrainians are *smart* and would never do such a stupid thing
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Unfortunately for the Russians, the Ukrainians are *smart* and would never do such a stupid thing! It is much more likely that it was a "False Flag" operation by the Wagner mercenary group, which gives the Russians some degree of deniability...similar to what they did when they murdered the Ukrainian Azov regiment POWs in the Olenivka prison camp and then tried to blame it on the Ukrainians and the HIMARS system.
I might be open to that suggestion if anyone could actually give a good reason for doing it. In the case of Azov the suggestion was that it was to destroy evidence of torture. In this situation I've seen no valid reasoning for why Russians would shell a location they're using as a safe haven to take pot shots at Ukraine, only that Russians are baddies so it must have been them and not the oh so reasonable Ukrainian good guys who would never shoot back at someone shooting at them if it was in a forbidden z
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Wow, what does Russian lemonade taste like? You logic is that Russia isn't stupid and wouldn't shell its own plant. Except that your alternative idea is that Ukraine is that stupid. That's stupid logic. Also it is NOT Russia's plant, Russia doesn't care what happens to it. Russia doesn't even have a short or long term strategy other than to demoralize all the Ukrainians.
Why would anyone at this point of time believe anything coming out of Russia? When has Russia ever told the truth, and why would you t
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2) it is not possible to convince me that nuclear power is safe
Why not?
Ukraine hasn't had a serious nuclear incident since Chernobyl.
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If Russia wasn't self-defeating [youtube.com], they would have won this war already [youtube.com].
Re: can't have it both ways (Score:2)
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does that constitute an attack on NATO countries ?
Depends on NATO's mood. If they can claim that there was intent behind the actions then sure, it's an attack.
Would it be reason for a declaration of war ?
Actual wars have started for flimsier reasons.
I think the West doesn't fully comprehend the Russian way of thinking. And Russia, especially Putin, has over simplified the motives and reactions of the West. They'll be a point where reality hits both sides really damn hard.
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Moscow did not get appreciable amounts of radioactive fallout from Chernobyl. You should gain a better grasp of history and climactic weather patterns before opening your fool mouth.