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Transportation Power

Electric Vehicles Can Now Power Your Home for Three Days (msn.com) 163

Posted by EditorDavid from the charging-ahead dept.
There may soon come a time when your car "also serves as the hub of your personal power plant," writes the Washington Post's climate columnist. And then they tell the story of a New Mexico man named Nate Graham who connected a power strip and a $150 inverter to his Chevy Bolt EV during a power outage: The Bolt's battery powered his refrigerator, lights and other crucial devices with ease. As the rest of his neighborhood outside Albuquerque languished in darkness, Graham's family life continued virtually unchanged. "It was a complete game changer making power outages a nonissue," says Graham, 35, a manager at a software company. "It lasted a day-and-a-half, but it could have gone much longer." Today, Graham primarily powers his home appliances with rooftop solar panels and, when the power goes out, his Chevy Bolt. He has cut his monthly energy bill from about $220 to $8 per month. "I'm not a rich person, but it was relatively easy," says Graham "You wind up in a magical position with no [natural] gas, no oil and no gasoline bill."

Graham is a preview of what some automakers are now promising anyone with an EV: An enormous home battery on wheels that can reverse the flow of electricity to power the entire home through the main electric panel. Beyond serving as an emissions-free backup generator, the EV has the potential of revolutionizing the car's role in American society, transforming it from an enabler of a carbon-intensive existence into a key step in the nation's transition into renewable energy.
Some crucial context from the article:
  • Since 2000, the number of major outages in America's power grid "has risen from less than two dozen to more than 180 per year, based on federal data, the Wall Street Journal reports... Residential electricity prices, which have risen 21 percent since 2008, are predicted to keep climbing as utilities spend more than $1 trillion upgrading infrastructure, erecting transmission lines for renewable energy and protecting against extreme weather."
  • About 8% of U.S. homeowners have installed solar panels, and "an increasing number are adding home batteries from companies such as LG, Tesla and Panasonic... capable of storing energy and discharging electricity."
  • Ford's "Lightning" electrified F-150 "doubles as a generator... Instead of plugging appliances into the truck, the truck plugs into the house, replacing the grid."
  • "The idea is companies like Sunrun, along with utilities, will recruit vehicles like the F-150 Lightning to form virtual power plants. These networks of thousands or millions of devices can supply electricity during critical times."

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Electric Vehicles Can Now Power Your Home for Three Days More

Electric Vehicles Can Now Power Your Home for Three Days

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  • Some modern EVs have a thing called V2L - vehicle to load - where you plug an adapter into the CCS port and can run power back out of the car to power an appliance. But realistically you're probably only going to be running an appliance or two from it. I don't believe any vehicle would cope with the massive power draw from a normal house although if someone was just running an offgrid / micro house maybe it would work.

    • Re: Vehicle to load (Score:4, Informative)

      by jacks smirking reven ( 909048 ) on Saturday February 18, 2023 @04:52PM (#63304123)

      Thing is most people in an emergency only need a couple appliances. The refrigerator to keep your food from spoiling, your modem/router if the internet is still working, some phone chargers, maybe a lamp or two. I have operated for days with 10 gallons of gas and a Honda eu2000i which is basically like having one outlet available. Were we a bit uncomfortable due to no AC in the summer? Sure, but we able to cook, boil some water charge our phones and even watch some TV.

      Wanting to run your house like it's on the grid during an emergency is a real luxury and a significant investment. Take your HVAC out of the equation and the power draw for most homes (who don't need electric heat) is actually not that much. What are the big draw items otherwise one needs in an emergency?

      • The worst part of a power outage in Florida is not having air conditioning. A trick most of us who have lived here long enough know is that your typical 3 to 7 kW portable generator will start and run a 5,000 or 6,000 BTU window air conditioner just fine, and that's typically enough cooling capacity to make one of the bedrooms in an average 3/2 home, somewhat comfortable.

        It's also why when people start getting serious about an approaching hurricane, the hardware stores typically sell out of those sorts of

    • Re:Vehicle to load (Score:4, Informative)

      by burtosis ( 1124179 ) on Saturday February 18, 2023 @04:54PM (#63304133)

      on't believe any vehicle would cope with the massive power draw from a normal house although if someone was just running an offgrid / micro house maybe it would work.

      Depends on the size of the EV. Sure, a tiny one with only a few kw motor and a couple dozen miles of range might as well be a go-cart for power but rapid chargers for EVs can do 350kW meaning a typical new large American house with two 120V phases at 200A is only 24kw (kva). That means the EV is pulling more than 14.5 houses with every circuit possible maxed to main breaker capacity. EV motors are similar, with even more power like 500kw motors. So to an EV, a maxed out house supply is nothing. The limiting factors will be your inverter and your fuses.

      • 48 and 7.25 but it’s still far more power than a house.
      • Minor nit, but the vast majority of homes in the US are split single-phase power and do not have multiple phases. Single phase power in the US is 240V, which is split into two 120V legs using a center tapped transformer.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by DrXym ( 126579 )

        Power draw is the limiting factor. E.g. if car says provides 2500W output then add up what would exceed that and that's your limit. If someone is living in a micro house or off the grid house then maybe this is fine, but I don't see it working in the average household in an every day situation. Of course in an emergency situation people will only run the things they need to which might be fine too.

        • says provides 2500W output

          What cars are you referring to? 2500W is about 3hp and that’s barely enough to cruise at 30 mph/50 mph on a flat surface with no headwind. Real EVs can put out 100, 200, even 300 times or more power. Granted it’s not going to be all day, but you lack basic understanding of the orders of magnitude involved.

          • EV batteries can put out far more DC power than a residential house would ever use, but, to use the power in a house, you need AC, which requires an inverter and the size of that inverter is going to be the limiting factor.

            • EV batteries can put out far more DC power than a residential house would ever use, but, to use the power in a house, you need AC, which requires an inverter and the size of that inverter is going to be the limiting factor.

              Maybe scroll up and read my first comment.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by dgatwood ( 11270 )

        on't believe any vehicle would cope with the massive power draw from a normal house although if someone was just running an offgrid / micro house maybe it would work.

        Depends on the size of the EV. Sure, a tiny one with only a few kw motor and a couple dozen miles of range might as well be a go-cart for power but rapid chargers for EVs can do 350kW meaning a typical new large American house with two 120V phases at 200A is only 24kw (kva).

        That's 200 amps per phase, times two phases. So it is 240V times 200A, or 48 KVA, plus 10% or so for inverter efficiency overhead, so more than 50 KVA. That's about a tenth the maximum current draw of Tesla's motors, but on the order of twice their average draw. Something to bear in mind.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by caseih ( 160668 )

          A 20kva backup generator is considered pretty big and more than adequate for most homes. Most homes here are 100 amp services only so only 24 kva max.

          • Most new homes are 200 unless it’s small, I gave the example of 200 because it’s the largest very common size.
        • Yes I corrected myself right under, right away.

    • Just how much power do you think your house uses?
      A quick search says US average household electricity use is creeping up towards 900kWh/month = 30kWh/day = 1.25kW average = 1.67horsepower average

      Even a wimpy EV that can only deliver 40hp to the wheels should be able to deliver a full day's worth of home electricity in under an hour.

      As an alternate reference - I've heard that a Tesla cruising down the highway at 60mph can draw as little as 15 kW of power. So two hours at that rate, 120 miles worth of range,

      • Yeah I don't think people realize that once you deduct things that cool/heat the water and air you are left with the remaining like 10% of total household draw.

        Water heaters, HVAC and clothes dryers are by far the largest consumers of energy in a home.

        • I think your figures are off.

          We use about 20kWh per day, when not using the A/C, and we have a natural gas-powered water heater, clothes dryer and stovetop. We do have an electric oven, but use that rarely.

          We probably have more than the average number of computers running all the time.

    • An EV battery can easily handle any load your house could throw at it. My Mach-E (the less powerful version) is rated at 200kw. The typical home MAXIMUM power supplied by the utilities (which you would never, ever come close to using) is 24kw (240VX100amp). I could power several houses if I really felt the need.

    • Some modern EVs have a thing called V2L - vehicle to load - where you plug an adapter into the CCS port and can run power back out of the car to power an appliance. But realistically you're probably only going to be running an appliance or two from it. I don't believe any vehicle would cope with the massive power draw from a normal house although if someone was just running an offgrid / micro house maybe it would work.

      The Ford lightning has a split phase ~10kw inverter.

  • Wasn't this Musk's pitch 10 years ago? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by AlanObject ( 3603453 ) on Saturday February 18, 2023 @04:49PM (#63304107)

    Personally, I charge my car to 80% from the grid and I generally want that range to be there when I get into the car. If there is some emergency place for me to be I don't want to be forced to stop on the way at a charge station any more than I would at a gas station.

    And that would be more probable in a general grid power failure situation. An elderly relative 80 miles away needs help and the regular caregiver is gone, for example. And the power station has brought down all the charge stations and the ones that are open are overflowing. I just don't want to be in that. And, BTW, driving away with the house's power supply leaves everything in the freezer to melt anyway.

    So the car battery as my energy supply just doesn't really do it for me. That's what a power-wall or two is good for. More expense, but lots of greedy capitalists are willing to lend you money to do it.

    • Powerwalls are for storing energy from a PV system for use at night, and/or taking advantage of lower overnight rates from some utility companies (though I really have to question if the latter would achieve ROI). While Tesla does promote grid power loss backup as a feature, it's still significantly cheaper to go with a fossil fuel-powered generator if having backup power is your only goal.

    • So you are saying it won't for you. But why assume it work for anyone? Some emergency, flood/hurricane/tornado/coldsnap that takes the grid out. People stuck at home might like the idea of using the car battery for a while till power comes back.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Nissan was actually doing it 10 years ago. They offered it in Japan.

    • It is pointless for your daily energy consumption. But it is very useful that one day of the year when an ice storm takes out the grid and you are stuck sheltering in the home for 24h waiting for power and everything to get back to normal as well. Here is Texas outages usually come together with stay-at-home directives for many workers, anyway. So it does not apply to everyone, but it could help lots of people those rare cases. And that in turn hello first responders.

  • Someone knocked on my door just now wearing some solar company logo shirt. I opened the door, said "If you are selling solar stuff, get the fuck out of here", and shut the door. A few months ago after having a crew crawling over a neighbor's roof, Sunrun rang my doorbell. I opened the door, said "You are selling finance contracts, not solar equipment. Leave immediately."

    One of these outfits had set up a small sales office in local retail space. I overheard these jokers talking: it was like Glengarry G

    • All so totally true. Always the pitch "you don't have to spend a dime and you will start saving right away!" I am so sick of them pitching it.

      There was one deal where they offer a monthly rental. You don't get title to the equipment but they put it on your roof for "free" and take some monthly fee which they promise will be less than the money you save on your utility bill. Nope.

      If you work out the math it almost makes sense. There is nothing wrong with a capital investment to save recurring costs

    • Wow, wait until you hear how the oil industry operates!

      • Wow, wait until you hear how the oil industry operates!

        My dad's jobs included under-aged powder monkey on an East Texas seismo crew.

        At an impressionable age, I lived in a part of coastal Southern California served by a small newspaper that carried many foreclosure and estate sale notices. In addition to pay by the word metes and bounds descriptions referring to numerous obscure landmarks and monuments, most of the properties had mineral rights reservations that, to my reading, gave the immortal corporate zombie of some There Will be Blood oil company, the rig

    • Also, "power outage"? What 3rd world country is that?

  • My wife and I now live in a small city well-known for the reliability of its electricity supply. We moved in two years and four months ago. In that time, the power has not dipped enough to cause the appliances to reset. Not once. For what it's worth, a municipal utility does distribution, a non-profit power authority generates the power. The municipal utility started burying aerial wires -- power, telephone, and cable when it arrived -- in 1948. Something like 99% of the plant is buried now, and there

  • ...that this is possible *today*, with ICE vehicles!

    Just siphon the gas out of the gas tank and put it into a generator!

    The problem isn't the tech, it's the practical issues that have already been pointed out in the thread: not a whole lot of people are looking to trade away their mobility in the sort of scenario where, by definition, it's unclear where the next charge is coming from, or from where. If a power outage takes longer to restore than the charge in the car (remember, three days is 'optimal condit

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by short ( 66530 )
      "you might only have 40 miles left in your car before the outage comes" - that is very improbable. The car gets charged just as you arrive home. Another thing is to which SoC (State of Charge). I am charging it only to 50% (NCA) although that is my personal preference, 90% is the most common setting. Moreover for example LFP batteries are being charged even to 100% and they are fine.

      And when the battery charge starts to get low just drive to a Supercharger.

    • Apartment dwellers commonly don't get parking spaces...

      I don't know where you live, but I've spent much of my life living in apartments in Los Angeles, and every single one came with a parking space. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if that's the law there, and if it isn't for you, it should be. Of course, families with more than one car have to put the extras on the street, but that's their problem for wanting/needing extra cars.

  • If you have an extended power outage, you may need to leave home to get supplies, or in some cases (such as the winter), evacuate. If you have a fully charged EV, you can use the vehicle for those things, or even as an emergency shelter if you need to warm up, something that it can actually do better than a gasoline car (no carbon monoxide risk). But if you drain the battery keeping your home powered, then the vehicle is useless when you actually need it.

    If you want a backup solution, reserve the car batter

  • Since 2000, the number of major outages in America's power grid "has risen from less than two dozen to more than 180 per year

    All the EV nuts vote this obvious down, but without an adequate electric grid, even America can't charge all the car batteries EV proponents want on the road. And they don't see the irony of this story about a guy running his home from a car because the power grid failed again. Not everyone has a house (at least half the population doesn't own). And less can afford to install solar pa

    • I don't see how our electric grid inadequacy and EV charging are related. EVs can charge with a pretty unreliable grid. If you are only getting power every other hour, your EV will still charge overnight. The US grid is in pretty bad shape. The combination of EVs and solar are the thing that might save the grid. With EV/solar, you have local generation and usage and don't even need a grid. Heck if everybody in my neighborhood got rooftop solar and was willing to have an EV that would provide V2L, we c

  • My big issue is I don't pay income tax (insufficient income) so no deduction for solar or home energy upgrades. All the solar installers rely on you getting that discount -- and w/o it, you are looking at a small mortgage paying $400-500 back to installers -- more than electric bill. How can low-income people not be subsidizing electric company by paying higher rates for those that can afford solar w/government subsidizing?

    • Low income people are subsidizing solar installations and it's patently unfair. The electric companies point this out all the time when they are trying to lobby against solar. Of course they aren't worried about poor people, they are worried about profits. But it's something they can latch onto.
  • A generator should have some way to generate power. An all electric vehicle like the f150 does not. It's a discharge only battery pack, not a generator. Note that it can charge the battery pack by regenerative braking but that doesn't qualify it as a generator IMO.

  • I used a 2kW inverter on my EV for long (day+) outages.

    Being able to run the fridge, chest freezer, and multiple lights is more than enough. I powered the Internet devices, but unfortunately there was no signal on the other end.

    A modern vehicle with 80kWh storage, and a larger back feed, could run the entire house, minus central A/C, electric oven, or dryer. The only problem is, EV batteries are not designed to be "deep cycle", nor the chassis should carry a constant load. So, good in a rare emergency, but

    • Why don't you just buy a generator? Then you have a car to go somewhere if you need it.
      • Generators are a pain in the neck. I have one. They require regular maintenance. You have to deal with storing gas, filling gas, draining gas. I have one because for a few hundred dollars you don't risk long-term power outages. Even if I had solar/EV (I don't) I would probably still have the gasoline generator. But a good generation system with automatic transfer and propane supply is a 5k-10k purchase. If I already had an EV I would probably use it as backup power rather than fussing with a generato

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by stikves ( 127823 )

        The outages are very rare, happening every few years, so it does not warrant to keep a generator in storage all the time.

        As the other commenter said, compared to a simple inverter they also happen to be high maintenance.

        Ideally, (20+ years timeframe), EVs parked at homes can be used as a "micro grid" for neighborhoods, sharing the power (at a price of course). That requires significant preparation, especially for safety, but can be achieved.

  • Great idea if power out for a while, but if you have an extended power outage (which you don't know when you started powering the house), then you end up with dead EV. Just a thought lol While I drive away in my gas truck.....
    • Drive to where? And do what? The only times I've experienced longer power-outages were after hurricanes. There wasn't anywhere to go or anything to do but sit at home. When the power comes back on, you charge the vehicle and get back to life. All of the commenters on EV stories on /. must be single people who don't actually live in their parents' basements. The vast majority of households have multiple vehicles. One EV and one ICE is a good combination. The future will likely be one EV and one hybri
  • What happens if you power your home for a couple days and you find out you need your car to travel somewhere?
    • If your home is without power for several days, so will be the surrounding area, and there's nowhere to go.

  • Ok, come on by. Maybe they mean "could." Could, if, and if, and if $$$$, and if 2035.

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