Google and Mozilla Don't Like Apple's New iOS Browser Rules 89
Apple is making changes to iOS in Europe to comply with the EU's Digital Markets Act cracking down on Big Tech gatekeepers. The act demands interoperability, fairness and privacy measures including allowing competing browser engines on iOS. Despite better browser choice, Google and Mozilla are unhappy with Apple's proposed changes. Mozilla says restricting browser engine integration to EU apps burdens rivals to build separate implementations. Mozilla's comment: "We are still reviewing the technical details but are extremely disappointed with Apple's proposed plan to restrict the newly-announced BrowserEngineKit to EU-specific apps. The effect of this would be to force an independent browser like Firefox to build and maintain two separate browser implementations -- a burden Apple themselves will not have to bear. Apple's proposals fail to give consumers viable choices by making it as painful as possible for others to provide competitive alternatives to Safari. This is another example of Apple creating barriers to prevent true browser competition on iOS." Google's VP of engineering for Chrome, Parisa Tabriz, commented on DeMonte's statement, saying, "Strong agree with Mozilla. Apple isn't serious about supporting web browser or engine choice on iOS. Their strategy is overly restrictive, and won't meaningfully lead to real choice for browser developers."
So? (Score:2, Insightful)
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Does your "berouser" have spell check?
Of course, who doesn't use one of those? A classmates of mine at Hogwarts once cast a 'Explodeyouranus'' by mistake during duelling practice but the spell checker kicked in and corrected it to 'Expelliarmus''. I'll leave you to imagine the consequences if he hadn't been using a spell checker.
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rse, who doesn't use one of those? A classmates of mine at Hogwarts once cast a 'Explodeyouranus'' by mistake during duelling practice but the spell checker kicked in and corrected it to 'Expelliarmus''.
No need, this is slashdot, we have commenters that frequently provide a visual.
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Exactly this -
What is almost certain to happen if Apple opens things up is Google will leverage its near monopoly with Chrome on the desktop to capture the mobile browser space as almost completely.
All they'd need to do is add some of the ios/macos/safari sync features to a mobile chrome and desktop chrome product and they'll instantly have pretty much all non-MacOs users that also have iOS devices using chrome at least some of the time. Once that happens it is very easy for Google to take something like yo
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Hahaha. Uh... isn't that precisely the situation now?
where is Safari for windows, linux, android, old i (Score:2)
where is Safari for windows, Linux, android, old ios?
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It's in the same place as NCSA Mosaic. Why should Apple support all of these platforms? They sell phones and computers. If you want Safari, buy something that runs Safari. I don't see how not writing a port for your favored hardware is the same as restricting the software that can run on particular hardware.
Re:where is Safari for windows, linux, android, ol (Score:4, Interesting)
It's in the same place as NCSA Mosaic. Why should Apple support all of these platforms?
If they care about Google's monopoly in the browser market, and want to avoid it, the logical thing would be for them to release Safari for Windows and Android.
I mean, if Safari is so good as a browser, surely people on those platforms will want it, isn't it?
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What we really need is for Mozilla to refactor Firefox into something that is as easy to build and maintain as Chromium. Then other browser vendors could adopt it, instead of all being Chrome skins.
Firefox is such a mess though, it would be a herculean effort.
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Firefox is such a mess though, it would be a herculean effort.
Mozilla is sitting on a massive pile of money, so much that they keep coming up with new projects to fuck with. Instead they should hire some full time devs to do nothing but refactoring, but they refuse to do so. End result, Firefox is ultimately doomed. How many dev hours could they have gotten for the $20M they spent on Pocket?
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They clearly don't see Firefox as a priority, and are looking for ways to diversify their income in the expectation that the browser will become irrelevant.
Maybe it's time to start over with a new browser, and just use the Gecko and JS engines from Mozilla.
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That's what I fear will be necessary, which is why I lean into the Mozilla foundation so hard. Such a process would be lengthy and painful.
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I'm not demanding anything here. I wouldn't use Safari even if they released it on other platforms.
Let just not pretend (like DarkOx did) that Apple is blocking Chrome and Firefox on iOS because they are an anti-monopoly champion and want to avoid Google Chrome to become a monopoly.
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The Gnome Web Browser uses Webkit, so that is your Linux option, there are others.
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Apple's Webkit is different from GNOME's Webkit. They sit atop different APIs, and produce different output.
Re: So? (Score:4, Interesting)
"What is almost certain to happen if Apple opens things up is Google will leverage its near monopoly with Chrome on the desktop to capture the mobile browser space as almost completely."
I don't see how having Apple as an alternative helps anyone with anything. Their browser is the worst maintained of the three and it's also really just like chrome in most regards, except crappier. Firefox is the only genuinely different browser (on platforms where that is allowed that is) so if you really want to cheer for a browser to oppose safari then it has to be FF.
Re: So? (Score:2)
Less memory, less battery drain, less privacy violation, plus more. I think itâ(TM)s Chrome thatâ(TM)s the shitty browser. I havenâ(TM)t even had Chrome installed on my Mac since I got a new one at work in 2019. Zero need for it.
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Less memory, less battery drain, less privacy violation, plus more. I think itâ(TM)s Chrome thatâ(TM)s the shitty browser. I havenâ(TM)t even had Chrome installed on my Mac since I got a new one at work in 2019. Zero need for it.
So, as a Slashdot 4-digit UID Mac User; which Browser do you use, primarily?
Serious question.
Re: So? (Score:2)
Safari, full time for about 10 years.
I started with Netscape because Mosaic was shit. Then Sea Monkey and then Firefox. I tried Chrome for a few years, but it was bloated and was always annoying with strange behaviour before updates. Then I went back to Firefox, but after using a browser with a process per tab, that was regressive. The Electrolysis project was late, slow and full of typical Mozilla we-canâ(TM)t-architect-new-things BS. Iâ(TM)ve had no problems with Safari since I settled on t
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Safari, full time for about 10 years.
I started with Netscape because Mosaic was shit. Then Sea Monkey and then Firefox. I tried Chrome for a few years, but it was bloated and was always annoying with strange behaviour before updates. Then I went back to Firefox, but after using a browser with a process per tab, that was regressive. The Electrolysis project was late, slow and full of typical Mozilla we-canâ(TM)t-architect-new-things BS. Iâ(TM)ve had no problems with Safari since I settled on that, and I find the user experience and cross-device functionality better.
Safari for me, too. I only resorted to FF about once a year, when I absolutely needed a website that refused to work with Safari. But that hasn't happened for several years.
I even used Safari for Windows at work until it absolutely wouldn't work anymore (long into using Windows 7).
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"What is almost certain to happen if Apple opens things up is Google will leverage its near monopoly with Chrome on the desktop to capture the mobile browser space as almost completely."
I don't see how having Apple as an alternative helps anyone with anything. Their browser is the worst maintained of the three and it's also really just like chrome in most regards, except crappier. Firefox is the only genuinely different browser (on platforms where that is allowed that is) so if you really want to cheer for a browser to oppose safari then it has to be FF.
So the alternative to one monopoly is to force another with an even crappier product? Isn't this how the US ended up with it's terrible telecommunications system, rather than regulating the industry until competition flourished (like most countries did when they sold of their public telecoms) you split it up into smaller monopolies that don't compete with each other.
I do agree about Firefox and use it on both desktop and mobile, it's the only mobile browser that supports ad blocking and tracker blocking
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So the alternative to one monopoly is to force another with an even crappier product?
What? That's literally the opposite of my argument. I'm pointing out that Safari doesn't help the situation.
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So the alternative to one monopoly is to force another with an even crappier product?
What? That's literally the opposite of my argument. I'm pointing out that Safari doesn't help the situation.
It does if you use a Mac!
Re: So? (Score:2)
Uh no.
Safari IS the problem if you own an iOS device, but it's poorly maintained so it isn't a help on a Mac OS device either.
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Uh no.
Safari IS the problem if you own an iOS device, but it's poorly maintained so it isn't a help on a Mac OS device either.
With nearly nightly Releases, just how do you support a Claim of "Poorly Maintained"?
Safari: Progress Delayed Is Progress Denied (Score:2)
Probably because WebKit has the most unimplemented web platform features among the three major browser engines. For example, it's hard to build a web-based messaging application if all browsers for a particular major operating system lack notification support. (Source: "Progress Delayed Is Progress Denied" by Alex Russell) [infrequently.org]
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Probably because WebKit has the most unimplemented web platform features among the three major browser engines. For example, it's hard to build a web-based messaging application if all browsers for a particular major operating system lack notification support. (Source: "Progress Delayed Is Progress Denied" by Alex Russell) [infrequently.org]
I thought Web Push Notifications were added to WebKit a couple of years ago.
This seems to think so, too. .
https://webkit.org/blog/12945/... [webkit.org]
And for iOS and iPadOS:
https://webkit.org/blog/13878/... [webkit.org]
I believe the reason for the pushback and delay was that Apple initially had Security concerns with Web Push Notifications.
But it's all good now.
Effect of delay and of lack of sound and vibration (Score:2)
Progress Delayed Is Progress Denied
I thought Web Push Notifications were added to WebKit a couple of years ago.
First, Apple was the last to add push notifications by several years. During those years when both Chrome for Android and Firefox for Android supported receiving notifications and their counterparts on iOS had no way to, this caused developers of web-based messaging applications to have to expend time and money on maintaining tooling to build an iOS native application for the sole purpose of receiving notifications.
Second, last I checked, Safari for iOS offered no option for the user to allow push notificat
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"What is almost certain to happen if Apple opens things up is Google will leverage its near monopoly with Chrome on the desktop to capture the mobile browser space as almost completely."
I don't see how having Apple as an alternative helps anyone with anything. Their browser is the worst maintained of the three and it's also really just like chrome in most regards, except crappier. Firefox is the only genuinely different browser (on platforms where that is allowed that is) so if you really want to cheer for a browser to oppose safari then it has to be FF.
With nearly nightly-builds, just how can Safari possibly be "the worst mantained"?
Re: So? (Score:2)
You think because they compile it more often that they are going a good job of maintaining the code? I don't even have to ask if you are new, you just proved it.
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You think because they compile it more often that they are going a good job of maintaining the code? I don't even have to ask if you are new, you just proved it.
They are presumably not just re-Building the same Code to look good to their Lead Developers.
Just how stupid are you?
https://developer.apple.com/do... [apple.com]
And many of these actually address WebKit issues; and so presumably can improve any Product, Apple or not, that uses Webkit.
Re: So? (Score:2)
I'm so stupid I can see that safari is perpetually behind.
Wait, is that stupid?
No, wait, I'm so stupid I talked to you
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iOS already has Chrome with ability to sync everything. Sure, it uses WebKit rather than Blink, but I very much doubt that most users actually care about that when deciding which browser to use. Nevertheless, Safari is doing great on iOS.
Two wrongs doesn't make it right. (Score:5, Insightful)
Two wrongs doesn't make it right.
Just because you don't like Google's near monopoly in the browser market doesn't mean you should be a cheerleader for Apple's anti-competitive behavior.
Apple not allowing competition in the browser engine sucks. If their browser is so good, not to mention installed by default, iOS users will keep using it despite the fact that Firefox and Chrome are available as well.
Also, changing from one browser to the next is quite easy. People are not as much locked into Google Chrome as they can be to say, Apple's iOS or Microsoft Windows.
You can often even import settings from your old browser when installing the new one.
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Make other countries' appstores subject to DMA. (Score:2)
Simple, right?
Developers residing in the EU are still allowed to ship apps to those other app stores; Therefore, Apple is still doing business in the EU.
The developers of apps are a party to the business, and therefore, the other businesses such as the US-based app store should still have the DMA requirements applied to it, due to the fact that Developers based in an EU country conduct business with it.
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What? Are you saying EU developers should be blocked from non-EU app stores?
$0.50 euro per install for that other app store (Score:2)
$0.50 euro per install for that other app store
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Nonsense the EU should not get to determine the rules of commerce outside its territorial zone other than to forbid its own citizens for being a party to business in other places if they so chose.
The US needs to sack up and tell the EU to go fuck it self; actually we ought make our continued NATO membership highly conditional the EU playing primarily by our rules. The peace umbrella should have strings.
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This would be an amazingly bad idea. This would in effect make Europe the world's tech regulator, completely preventing local governments from regulating their jurisdiction as they or their citizens want. Why should the DMA take precedent over US or China law?
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This would be an amazingly bad idea. This would in effect make Europe the world's tech regulator, completely preventing local governments from regulating their jurisdiction as they or their citizens want. Why should the DMA take precedent over US or China law?
Exactly THIS.
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Simple, right?
Developers residing in the EU are still allowed to ship apps to those other app stores; Therefore, Apple is still doing business in the EU.
The developers of apps are a party to the business, and therefore, the other businesses such as the US-based app store should still have the DMA requirements applied to it, due to the fact that Developers based in an EU country conduct business with it.
Fuck RIGHT Off!!!
More complaints (Score:2, Insightful)
More complaints about people not having enough access to their free products somehow harming them.
People who, for the most part, neither know nor care about what a "browser engine" is.
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People who, for the most part, neither know nor care about what a "browser engine" is.
Ignorance of people does not mean they are unaffected by the effects of a monoculture. You sound like a very good corporate lapdog.
Why are people surprised? (Score:4, Insightful)
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They will find every possible way to misunderstand or misapply the wording
You spelled that sentence wrong. They will be given every possible opportunity to misunderstand or misapply the wording of laws and rulings.
The EU decidedly did not give the ruling some people wanted. They could have, and they definitely can do so some time in the future.
I don't have a horse in this race, everyone involved is some degree of wrong, and the solution that most benefits me, as a consumer, is not available.
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I would have respect for Big Tech if Apple just refused outright to make the changes. Apple going 1/2 way only shows this is a game, which it always was, but it's two stupid people who didn't read the rules, and are now playing checkers on a monopoly board, with chess pieces.
Easy for you to say; since it's not your €BEELIONS on the line.
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Yes, but the EU can't block Apple, if they do Google, another company, or the government will have to declare a lack of competitors, forcing them to bring Apple back. Not to mention the infrastructure, already in use word wide, makes Apple fundamentally immune to any real legislative damage. All Apple is doing, is acting like they will play the game, but they've made it clear it's by their rules, and their handicap.
So what?
Apple is actually playing by the EU's Rules; the only other choice is to leave.
But Apple doesn't have to give one single nanometer more than their lawyers have advised they have to. Why should they?
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I agree, that's my point, they're acting like teenagers who were asked to clean their room, knowing there's no punishment either way.
Actually, I think they are acting like a Publicly-Traded Company with a well-deserved Reputation for vanishingly-small amounts of Malware Distributed through their App Store. A Reputation (and attendant Marketshare and Profits) that will undoubtedly suffer (to what extent remains to be seen) due to these bullshit EU Mandates.
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This thread has gone on long enough, have a great week :)
Chicken! ;-)
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Woah, I'm not a chicken, but either we're going to agree which mutes this thread, or we're not, which mutes this thread after 10 more replies :) - so cheers!
There's a limit on Thread Depth? News to me.
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"They're acting like teenagers who were asked to clean their room, knowing there's no punishment either way."
Let's assume Apple does nothing, and the EU tries to ban them, the result, people revolt and Apple stays. Let's assume Apple complies fully with liberal meaningful intent, people don't care, a few orgs and people are happier, but nothing changes. Finally, Apple does what they're doing, again, no one really cares, nothing really happens. Apply has nothing to worry a
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Do you want to waste time? I have no problem with that, I've had thread depth go to annoying levels. I still believe this to be the case:
"They're acting like teenagers who were asked to clean their room, knowing there's no punishment either way."
Let's assume Apple does nothing, and the EU tries to ban them, the result, people revolt and Apple stays. Let's assume Apple complies fully with liberal meaningful intent, people don't care, a few orgs and people are happier, but nothing changes. Finally, Apple does what they're doing, again, no one really cares, nothing really happens. Apply has nothing to worry about, because the people have voted, and for some reason, the people like Apple.
I don't like Apples products, I think they suck, but, my vote is meaningless.
You think Apple Silicon Macs suck? Boy are you in the minority!
You think iPhones and iPads suck? Or do you just want them jailbroken?
You think Apple Watch sucks? Again, quite the minority.
You think Vision Pro sucks? How much time have you spent with one?
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macOS is terrible, it's hard to use, and gives me a bad taste every time I have to interact with it. Annoyingly, I have to support macOS because of a macOS application my company bought, whic
All the more reason to open the market (Score:2)
To be fair (Score:2)
Not that I am cheering for Apple here, but they don't have this burden because they don't support Safari on anything but their own OS, which is no great loss to anyone.
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Mozilla and Google already build and maintain two separate browser implementations. Ones with Webkit for Apple, and ones with Blink or Gecko for everyone else.
They maintain an iOS application, as well as applications for other operating systems.
Apple's plan would force Mozilla and Google to either release and maintain TWO different iOS applications unless they bend the knee and use Webkit in the EU despite having the option not to.
I agree with Google and Mozilla. Apple is the evil here.
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Now they have to maintain three separate mobile browser implementations, one for Android, one for EU iOS and one for non-EU iOS.
No one is preventing Apple from supporting Safari on other OSs. They used to support Safari on Windows.
Re: To be fair (Score:2)
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It's what they have to do the archive to end the browser monopoly, which is the EU's goal.
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I don't see how forcefully opening up a sub-market for the monopolist would make it have less share of the overall market.
Oh no, how awful. Anyway. (Score:2)
Oh no, company with 305.63 billion billion dollar revenue and another that has no problems with paying their CEO 7 million whilst pretending to be a "non-profit" have a problem with maintaining multiple branches.
How awful, my heart bleeds out because of your hardships.
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Chrome is better on iPad (Score:2)
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I just upgraded to a new iPad with iOS 17.x. Using safari, I started seeing a number of store websites not behaving correctly, such as not displaying images, not loading items to carts, etc. I loaded up chrome for iOS, and sites are working correctly on chrome. Seems that Chrome project managers are paying more attention than Apple PMs as far as iPad integration is concerned.
Or, it sounds like we have another IE situation brewing; where web Devs. start using Chrome's nonstandard Extensions to the HTML standard.
Safari slow to add file uploads and notifications (Score:2)
it sounds like we have another IE situation brewing; where web Devs. start using Chrome's nonstandard Extensions to the HTML standard.
When the iPhone came out, there were significant features in Safari for iOS that were in the standard since HTML 4 (if not 3.2) and not rectified until iOS 6. One of them was <input type="file">. This means Safari's perceived history of missing web platform features can't all be blamed on widespread use of Chromium-only extensions.
On that note: When do extensions to the web platform become "standard"? W3C Candidate Recommendation? W3C Recommendation? Safari for iOS was the last browser by far to imple
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it sounds like we have another IE situation brewing; where web Devs. start using Chrome's nonstandard Extensions to the HTML standard.
When the iPhone came out, there were significant features in Safari for iOS that were in the standard since HTML 4 (if not 3.2) and not rectified until iOS 6. One of them was <input type="file">. This means Safari's perceived history of missing web platform features can't all be blamed on widespread use of Chromium-only extensions.
So, you mentiom one example, then try to weasel out by saying "[. . .]can't all be blamed[. . .]" (emphasis mine), which seems to me to accede that my original assertion was plausible.
On that note: When do extensions to the web platform become "standard"? W3C Candidate Recommendation? W3C Recommendation? Safari for iOS was the last browser by far to implement notifications via the Push API.
And I believe that is because Apple had Security concerns
And even then it implements them only halfway, not giving the user the option to produce vibration or sound when a notification arrives from a website to whose notifications the user has subscribed.
See "Progress Delayed Is Progress Denied" by Alex Russell [infrequently.org] for more about Apple's foot-dragging on implementing new web platform features that both Chromium and Firefox have had for years.
I do not have sufficient information on the alert sounds/haptics issue. Sounds like it might be a bug; but I don't have a way to test it that I know of.
Which security concerns with Push API? (Score:2)
Safari for iOS was the last browser by far to implement notifications via the Push API.
And I believe that is because Apple had Security concerns
Which security concerns did Apple mention during the first half-decade of Firefox's support of Push API and Safari's lack thereof?
I can think of one: security of Apple's revenue stream. When Apple implements features that let web applications substitute for native applications in the App Store, this causes Apple to sell fewer iPhones at $429 per 3 years (expiring when Apple stops offering iOS for older iPhones), fewer Macs on which to build iPhone apps at $599 per 5 years (expiring when Apple stops offering
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Hahaha wait let me (Score:2)
Manufacture drama much?
They can still ship one browser version. (Score:2)
Worldwide apps can still be shipped to the EU, it's just that now you can build EU-only apps. If Mozilla and Google don't have enough resources to support two versions, they can just keep shipping their WebKit-wrapping browser to the EU.
In fact, I think it will be interesting to see if they try to control user choice by preventing users in the EU from installing the world version of their browsers.
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What a bunch of weasel words! In your opinion Mozilla should allow "user choice" by providing for *desktop* also a Firefox with WebKit? The choice goes like that: if you want WebKit, you can install Safari, if you want Gecko, you can install Firefox, if you want Blink, you can install Chrome. Except that Apple use their monopoly power and block Gecko and Blink from iOS.
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What a bunch of weasel words! In your opinion Mozilla should allow "user choice" by providing for *desktop* also a Firefox with WebKit? The choice goes like that: if you want WebKit, you can install Safari, if you want Gecko, you can install Firefox, if you want Blink, you can install Chrome. Except that Apple use their monopoly power and block Gecko and Blink from iOS.
Their Platform; their Rules.
Or should be. No one is forced to use Apple Products.
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No one is forced to use Apple Products.
Not even students at a school that issues iPad tablets to its students?
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No one is forced to use Apple Products.
Not even students at a school that issues iPad tablets to its students?
Almost no one is forced to use Apple Products.