New Ratings for the 'Greenest' Car in America Might Surprise You (msn.com) 199
The Washington Post shares some surprising news from the American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy, a 44-year-old nonprofit which works on government energy policies and produces its own research and analysis.
The group "has rated the pollution from vehicles for decades," according to the article — but "says the winning car this year is the Toyota Prius Prime SE, a plug-in hybrid that can go 44 miles on electricity before switching to hybrid." "It's the shape of the body, the technology within it, and the overall weight," said Peter Huether, senior research associate for transportation at ACEEE. "And all different types of Priuses are very efficient...." [T]he Prius Prime also won out in 2020 and 2022. But with more and more electric vehicles on the market, the staying power of the plug-in hybrid is surprising.
The analysis shows that simply running on electricity is not enough to guarantee that a car is "green" — its weight, battery size and overall efficiency matter, too. While a gigantic electric truck weighing thousands of pounds might be better than a gas truck of the same size, both will be outmatched by a smaller, efficient gas vehicle. And the more huge vehicles there are on the road, the harder it will be for the United States to meet its goal of zeroing out emissions by 2050.
The GreenerCars report analyzes 1,200 cars available in 2024, assessing both the carbon dioxide emissions of the vehicle while it's on the road and the emissions of manufacturing the car and battery. It also assesses the impact of pollutants beyond carbon dioxide, including nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide and particulate matter — all of which can harm human health. The Toyota Prius Prime received a score of 71, followed by several all-electric cars such as the Nissan Leaf and Mini Cooper SE with scores in the high 60s. The Toyota RAV4 Prime, a plug-in hybrid SUV with 42 miles in range, got a score of 64. One gas hybrid, the Hyundai Elantra Blue, made the list as well — thanks to an efficient design and good mileage.
At the bottom of the list were large gas-guzzling trucks such as the Ford F-150 Raptor R, with scores in the 20s. So was one electric car: the Hummer EV, which weighs 9,000 pounds and scored a 29... The Prius Prime outranked its competitors, Huether said, because of its small battery — which lowers the emissions and pollution associated with manufacturing — and its high efficiency. The vehicle's battery is less than one-tenth the size of the battery on the monstrous Hummer EV.
The group "has rated the pollution from vehicles for decades," according to the article — but "says the winning car this year is the Toyota Prius Prime SE, a plug-in hybrid that can go 44 miles on electricity before switching to hybrid." "It's the shape of the body, the technology within it, and the overall weight," said Peter Huether, senior research associate for transportation at ACEEE. "And all different types of Priuses are very efficient...." [T]he Prius Prime also won out in 2020 and 2022. But with more and more electric vehicles on the market, the staying power of the plug-in hybrid is surprising.
The analysis shows that simply running on electricity is not enough to guarantee that a car is "green" — its weight, battery size and overall efficiency matter, too. While a gigantic electric truck weighing thousands of pounds might be better than a gas truck of the same size, both will be outmatched by a smaller, efficient gas vehicle. And the more huge vehicles there are on the road, the harder it will be for the United States to meet its goal of zeroing out emissions by 2050.
The GreenerCars report analyzes 1,200 cars available in 2024, assessing both the carbon dioxide emissions of the vehicle while it's on the road and the emissions of manufacturing the car and battery. It also assesses the impact of pollutants beyond carbon dioxide, including nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide and particulate matter — all of which can harm human health. The Toyota Prius Prime received a score of 71, followed by several all-electric cars such as the Nissan Leaf and Mini Cooper SE with scores in the high 60s. The Toyota RAV4 Prime, a plug-in hybrid SUV with 42 miles in range, got a score of 64. One gas hybrid, the Hyundai Elantra Blue, made the list as well — thanks to an efficient design and good mileage.
At the bottom of the list were large gas-guzzling trucks such as the Ford F-150 Raptor R, with scores in the 20s. So was one electric car: the Hummer EV, which weighs 9,000 pounds and scored a 29... The Prius Prime outranked its competitors, Huether said, because of its small battery — which lowers the emissions and pollution associated with manufacturing — and its high efficiency. The vehicle's battery is less than one-tenth the size of the battery on the monstrous Hummer EV.
It Is A Decent Car (Score:3, Informative)
I have driven the Prius in the past. It was a rental car. I thought it was fine except for a feeling of "accelerator delay" during highway speed driving and hilly terrain.
I would actually consider buying a Prius HEV over any BEV.
Yeah, my choice is not "totally green", but it seems like a reasonable compromise until BEV and it's required charging network builds out.
Re:It Is A Decent Car (Score:5, Informative)
Also the 2024 Prius body redesign is quite nice in my opinion as well.
https://www.toyota.com/prius/ [toyota.com]
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The report is obviously poorly thought through in this respect at leasts. My guess is they make some wildly inaccurate assumptions about how PHEVs are actually used in the real world, and think that this car will spend most of its life being driven on its battery. The truth, of course, is that many drivers rarely plug them in. I reckon they have also not taken into account charge-discharge cycles. The average American car is driven 30 miles a day. With a 44 mile range, the Prime will go through a full cycle
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The cynic in me can't help but think they engineered the result to ensure their report got some media attention.
Re: It Is A Decent Car (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: It Is A Decent Car (Score:5, Informative)
OMG,lol.
So, I had to quick through about 10 links, and fill out a form, to find this link [aceee.org]. I jumped straight to the "Environmental Damage" section. Within five paragraphs I'm reading stuff like this:
OMG, I jumped to where they're getting their embodied energy costs. Drumroll... :
2006. They're using 2006 numbers that were used to build a model released in 2007. I mean, Jesus f'ing christ. That's pre-Roadster. George Bush is president. Twitter launches the same year. The original iPhone launch is still a year away. The Beijing Olympics and Russia's invasion of Georgia are still two years away.
What the heck kind of field do they think they're working in that you can use data from 2006 to build a model of modern EV manufacturing?
Re: It Is A Decent Car (Score:4, Insightful)
This is like a bad joke:
1. They claim to do model-by-model analysis but then just use the same numbers because the data "aren't available" to do model-by-model, despite the whole fucking point of their ranking being that it's a ranking of models
2. They use 2007 analysis for cars that didn't exist in 2007
Idiots.
GREET [Re: It Is A Decent Car] (Score:5, Informative)
2. They use 2007 analysis for cars that didn't exist in 2007
Idiots.
No; the GREET-2 [wikipedia.org] model may have started in 2007, but it's updated every year. The current version is 45VH2-GREET [energy.gov], 2023.
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I don't think that's right. 45-VH2 is specifically for *hydrogen*: "The 45VH2-GREET 2023 user manual describes the methodology used by 45VH2-GREET 2023 to calculate life cycle greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions of hydrogen production"
I don't see any link to an updated general purpose GREET model. I can see it's not the one you provided, but it may be there somewhere else. I don't think it is, but it may be.
But if the model is saying that weight is more important than drivetrain in determining carbon intensity,
Re:GREET [Re: It Is A Decent Car] (Score:5, Informative)
Hydrogen is the most recent addition to the model, but the recent model isn't only hydrogen. All the model components get annual updates.
Try this one for the discussion of recent changes: https://greet.anl.gov/publicat... [anl.gov]
(from the list of publications on this page: https://greet.anl.gov/index.ph... [anl.gov] )
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I hate to sound pedantic, but right at the top of that link, it says in red letters: "This is Argonne National Laboratory’s R&D version of GREET". So it's not the right version, still. There may well be a version of GREET focused on EVs vs ICE and not H2 or R&D etc. I just can't see it myself, and I can't be arse to really look hard for it.
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The US Automotive industry.
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What the heck kind of field do they think they're working in that you can use data from 2006 to build a model of modern EV manufacturing?
The one where you are paid to come to the conclusion that benefits your benefactors. It’s asinine to mention that nuclear power creates radiation or even accidents that kills people without mentioning that coal power does far worse [scientificamerican.com]. The coal power industry has been estimated to have killed 460,000 people over two recent decades [theguardian.com]. Deaths due to ICE vehicle exhaust are estimated to be 53,000 per year [sciencedirect.com].
Re: It Is A Decent Car (Score:4, Interesting)
The report is obviously poorly thought through in this respect at leasts. My guess is they make some wildly inaccurate assumptions about how PHEVs are actually used in the real world, and think that this car will spend most of its life being driven on its battery. The truth, of course, is that many drivers rarely plug them in.
Do you have anything to back that up? Driving to work this morning I saw numerous PHEVs and all of them were plugged in. The average electric powered commute in my neck of the woods costs about 25-30% of what the same commute costs on gasoline power so people generally buy PHEVs for the express purpose of taking advantage of that price difference, not to waste gasoline dragging a heavy Lithium Ion battery around.
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Here you go: https://www.hotcars.com/never-... [hotcars.com].
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Here you go: https://www.hotcars.com/never-... [hotcars.com].
I literally spent some time a couple of days ago calling the local agents of several international manufacturers enquiring about PHEV and EV battery replacement and repair costs and what the price of major repairs is that I can expect because I want to buy an EV or PHEV. The Hyundai, Kia and Honda support staff all told me that most of the PHEV problems they get are with the ICE power trains because people drive PHEVs around on electric all the time and don't run the ICE power train regularly which is not g
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The main reason why people don't plug in a PHEV is the frictional cost of doing so. Having to plug your car in every night to have any sort of range the next day is a pain in the backside. I plug my Zoe in once a fortnight, by comparison.
In the UK, the second reason that PHEVs weren't plugged in was because people could buy them cheaply with a company car tax break and didn't have to run them as EVs to take advantage of it. The tax break has now been cleaned up (I believe) and only applies to EVs, and that
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Talking to Chevy Volt owners, this was anecdotally the case as well. It would automatically engage the ICE powertrain at intervals to keep it alive or e.g. if you wanted to run the heat, but the majority of daily driving was EV-only.
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Here you go: https://www.hotcars.com/never-... [hotcars.com].
I looked at that link, but while it asserts confidently that many plug-in hybrids aren't routinely plugged in, it shows no evidence for that assertion.
It's mostly just complaining about how low the electric-only range is, which seems to me to mean that they simply don't understand the purpose of a plug-in hybrid.
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It does indeed show evidence. Specifically it says: "The stats regarding just how low the miles are makes for some interesting reading. The California Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR) found that real-world electric miles driven by PHEVs are much lower than they could be. They have put it in the region of 25%-65% lower, a huge percentage range. Fuel consumption, conversely, is some 42%-67% higher, thanks to that lack of miles done on electric power only. This is all based upon the EPA-sanctioned window-stic
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Sigh. Here's the actual paper. You'll see that the BAR data is very real, is not the only data used, and is nothing like as unsophisticated as you imagine. You'll also see references to ex-US studies in the white paper. You could follow those up if you like. The data is consistent from around the world: most PHEVs drive far fewer electric miles than expected.
https://theicct.org/wp-content... [theicct.org].
If you think I'm wrong, whyn't you dig out a study showing the opposite conclusion. I'll bet you can't, because the d
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If you have a garage or some other trivially easy way to charge your car where you pay only home rates for electricity, you'll save very, very roughly $1000 a year on fuel. Obviously that number goes up or down based on how much you drive an if you know that number you can calculate it. Maintenance costs for EVs are wildly lower than gas cars -- no oil changes, less brake work (though you need to use the brakes now and then to get that benefit, else they'll rust), and overall less components/complexity.
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Indeed. With just a couple (very sketchy) exceptions, every study I've seen on the issue (and there's been a lot of them), and esp. the more recent ones. is consistent in the result that manufacturing CO2 emissions / energy consumption of a vehicle are dwarfed by its operational emissions / consumption, by like an order of magnitude. And the ratio keeps growing.
Your average ICE car consumes its entire weight on fuel every year. Up in smoke, out your tailpipe.
Also, re: weight, they're nearly identical -
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If you drive it in EV mode 100% of the time, that combustion engine is going to start corroding, simply due to not being used. PHEVs need to be run in hybrid mode at least occasionally.
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Re: It Is A Decent Car (Score:4, Interesting)
PHEVs will burn gas periodically forcibly if you don't use the ICE for a long time. My 2015 Volt does.
Re: It Is A Decent Car (Score:2)
That is untrue. All PHEVs and EVs have some amount of "reserve" battery capacity, which gets released over time as the battery ages.
My 2015 Volt PHEV with 68k miles, most of them electric, has experienced no decreased electric range. It's only rated for 37 miles of range. It doesn't do a full cycle every day, though. Usually less.
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The figure of 80% SoH after 500 to 750 discharge cycles is a widely accepted average, which accounts for both clever BMS including good cooling and reserve capacity. It's working out a bit better than that for EVs, in practice -- more like 1,000 or even 1500 cycles. I'm glad your Volt is working out well, but what matters are average experiences.
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> All PHEVs and EVs have some amount of "reserve" battery capacity, which gets released over time as the battery ages.
I don't know about "all" but if this is true at all, it's not very common. At least for modern EVs produced in the past few years, net (usable) battery capacity is over 95% of the gross (total) capacity.
The purpose of this reserve is to be a buffer against over charging or discharging. It's far too small to be of any use "releasing" this capacity to compensate for degradation. One of the
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The report is obviously poorly thought through in this respect at leasts. My guess is they make some wildly inaccurate assumptions about how PHEVs are actually used in the real world, and think that this car will spend most of its life being driven on its battery.
For the people I know with Prius Primes, that seems accurate.
The vast majority of car use in the US is for trips well below the electric range of the plug-in Prius.
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The truth, of course, is that many drivers rarely plug them in.
Is that actually the truth? In America where it is trivial to plug in due to the prevalence of garages and free standing houses, and a situation where it is significantly cheaper to run on electricity than gasoline, combined with every man and their pet racoon bitching about the cost of living increases I would like to see your backup your statement with data.
I can't speak for Americans, but I can speak for my neighbour, who has filled up his Prius twice (with petrol) in the past 12 months since his rides a
Re: It Is A Decent Car (Score:2)
the car being used in ICE mode more and more
Hybrids always do use both though. The idea isn't using one mode or the other, it's to split the power output into two different engines, at something like a 2:1 ratio and use a mix of both depending on power demand and what's most efficient at different speeds. Any situation with variable power demand uses both and having a bigger battery doesn't change your driving situation. Plug-in hybrids never made much sense to me, but if you had a long flat road at constant speed with cruise control in your commute,
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There was a report by Chrysler about the people charging their Jeep Wrangler 4xes, and from that, most 4xes were plugged in, than not. Having the battery charged on those can mean about 20 miles of run time without needing to fire up the ICE engine, which, for a short commute, can be just as good as an EV.
A lot of people, if they have a PHEV would charge it, if only because it means less money spent at the gas pump.
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Re: It Is A Decent Car (Score:5, Insightful)
The car may be "greener" but it definitely didn't include anything like maintenance - engine oil, transmission oil, and other things aren't green at all, especially replacing engine oil every few months (this is highly polluting which is why you have to dispose of it in special areas).
Hybrids are a decent technology, however, they are probably way worse in the maintenance department - they are way more complex than ICEs, have high voltages like BEVs, so they get to fill the space with all the maintenance needs of a regular ICE, adding the complexity of a hybrid drive train and special knowledge of high voltage electronics of a BEV.
All you need is for any part of it to break and leave you stranded.
Why someone hasn't made a serial hybrid where the drive train is all electric, but it has an engine coupled to a generator for extended range is beyond me. You get the drive simplicity of an EV, you don't need a transmission that couples both the engine and motor together - the motor drives the wheels exclusively, and the engine powers a generator to recharge the battery as necessary. Like a diesel electric locomotive, or an Edison truck. I suppose it can be disconcerting to be sitting in traffic and then have the engine startup on you, or that the engine sounds never vary with speed (since the engine gets to work in its most efficient operating range to run the generator), but it at least eliminates the mechanical complexity of a transmission with multiple gears and clutches and other stuff.
Re: It Is A Decent Car (Score:4, Informative)
Range extenders have been around for years. The i3 has a REx. So does the LEVC black taxi.
https://levc.com/technology/ec... [levc.com]
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The upcoming 2025 Ramcharger is that
https://www.ramtrucks.com/revo... [ramtrucks.com]
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Why someone hasn't made a serial hybrid where the drive train is all electric, but it has an engine coupled to a generator for extended range is beyond me.
The Prius does this partially. There is actual benefit to having a direct connection to the wheels too so it dynamically switches between driving the wheels and acting as a serial hybrid.
Right now KBB says EVs cost more to maintain (Score:2)
It's debatable if that'll change as engineering improvements happen, since a lot of the costs are due to poor build quality, though Tesla has been struggling with build quality for basically ever....
As for oil changes, most cars now require full synthetic and go 6-10k miles or 1 year on a change. So the foot print is lower than you'd expect.
I'm no
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I don't know how the US manages to fuck up things that the rest of the world finds completely unproblematic, but it seems a pretty consistent pattern, and EV maintenance is another example of it. In the rest of the world, EVs deliver on the promise of lower maintenance due to far fewer moving parts. I have an annual service for my EV which is basically a computer check, a tyre check, and a change of the cabin filter. It costs about 90 quid, and I could have it for less if I could be bothered to shop around.
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I don't know how the US manages to fuck up things that the rest of the world finds completely unproblematic, but it seems a pretty consistent pattern, and EV maintenance is another example of it. In the rest of the world, EVs deliver on the promise of lower maintenance due to far fewer moving parts.
They do in the U.S., too. The problem is, people who rent a Tesla are less likely to tolerate a car in poor condition than people who rent a Ford Fiesta or whatever. Rental cars are treated notoriously badly by people who drive them, and things go wrong, and when one car costs more to repair when it needs it *and* has people more insistent on them fixing things before they'll take the vehicle, it ends up costing more to maintain it.
Of course, that's probably also true for their other exotic cars. They ju
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The car may be "greener" but it definitely didn't include anything like maintenance - engine oil, transmission oil, and other things aren't green at all, especially replacing engine oil every few months (this is highly polluting which is why you have to dispose of it in special areas)
Your view of lubricant service interval seems antiquated. With modern synthetic oils intervals of 10,000 miles are common, and in a hybrid where the engine only runs part of the time it should be much longer than that. Likely once a year, more for removal of any moisture contamination than anything, is probably going to be typical. Most cars may get a transmission oil change once, maybe twice in their lifetime.
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Try a more nuanced read. The Prius does run as a serial hybrid part of the time.
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A Tesla Model 3 has better energy mileage than this.
Not really clear. Tesla model 3 is quoted at 113 to 132 miles per gallon equivalent (depending on model); Prius Prime 127. Even the top number (for the performance AWD) is well within the measurement error. https://www.fueleconomy.gov/fe... [fueleconomy.gov]
Also, with LiFE batteries. Its manufacturing is far more efficient. Has this group justified its choice in metrics it can actually back up
The difference in weight may make up the difference in rating.
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A Tesla Model 3 has better energy mileage than this.
Not really clear. Tesla model 3 is quoted at 113 to 132 miles per gallon equivalent (depending on model); Prius Prime 127.
Only on the base model. The other models of Prius Prime have 114 miles MPGe. And remember that this is only when running on battery. If you're not charging the thing, the MPG is less than half that.
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If someone doesn't have access to a charger and has to fight over them in a parking lot, a hybrid is a suitable compromise. If a charger is found, it can be used. If not, then just go get gas.
Things will be different when every apartment, condo, and multi-family dwelling has chargers for every parking spot, but right now, charger availability is one of the biggest bottlenecks, and hybrids are a good transition point until that gets taken care of.
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To me, this study does not so much show the advantages of the Prius, it shows a problem with the U.S. driving: Apparently, most of the drives are shorter than the 44 mile distance from wallbox to wallbox - a commute which could more efficiently be done by public transport as the drivin
Re: It Is A Decent Car (Score:2)
Americans drive an average of 29 miles per day. 44 is not typical.
Unfortunately, there are many areas which have zero public transportation. I'm 3 miles away from the nearest bus stop. Even if I lived closer, the VTA connections would make it impractical. My 9 mile 1-way commute could take hours.
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Yeah, a lot of people I work with drive to the train station. So assume a lot of 3 miles there, 3 miles back driving each day. They'd all be fine with a 12 year-old i-Miev, but they do the commute in an F150.
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PHEVs are the worst of both worlds, not a compromise - an EV with limited range where charging is a PITA daily occurrence and a gasoline vehicle which is massively complicated by having two drive trains. There are videos of people popping the hoods on these PHEV Priuses and one look should convince that this thing is going to be incredibly expensive to service or repair.
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The new PHEV version has a bigger battery and motor, but that doesn't make it substantially more complex.
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I'd say these are a perfect compromise between a pure EV and an ICE vehicle until we get a generation of serial hybrids (think the Volt and RAMCharger that the ICE engine is a generator and not connected to the drivetrain.) Toyota has been doing hybrids for a long time, and a plug-in Prius is probably the best compromise vehicle for almost anyone, especially if it has a built-in PSW inverter, so one could use it as a generator if there is a power failure, like the Ford F150 PowerBoost's generator mode.
Priu
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It's about 16 months in the UK and 2 years in the US, not five to eight years.
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I'm not a fan of BEV in any form, but a hybrid is a compromise that is a far better option than hauling around a huge battery pack of combustible batteries.
Is it really, though? Consider that most people won't replace a battery on either a BEV or a PHEV, because by the time the battery fails, the car is worth way less than the battery would cost. So if you assume that there's a good chance the car will be scrapped when the battery fails, the story is very different.
Now consider that the battery might only be usable for a thousand charge cycles, and that if you drive your PHEV on battery every day and going through the entire range of the battery, you'll prob
Green energy? (Score:2)
https://greenercars.org/greene... [greenercars.org]
They're using national averages for energy pollution. As we all know, some locations love the coal and natural gas, others don't. Coal and natural gas energy production significantly raises the national pollution average.
I'd be much more impressed if they also rated BEVs and PHEvs based on living near the lowest 10% of energy pollution and the highest 10%. Depending on where you live, a gas hybrid might just smoke (pun intended) the best BEVs in terms of pollution.
Fuel co
Re:Green energy? (Score:5, Informative)
This is a myth that just refuses to die. An EV running on the most carbon-intensive grid mix in the US (and in fact, in the world) is still cleaner than a gas hybrid, because:
1. EV efficiency is so much inherently higher than an ICE vehicle
2. Non carbon benefits including lower noise pollution, zero tailpipe emissions, dramatically fewer brake pad emissions
See for example: https://www.greencarreports.co... [greencarreports.com].
Re: Green energy? (Score:2)
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I don't know what it takes to convince people. I'm sure it's a mix of fact and emotion. I think someone would need to spend a good amount of time in the forest of rhetoric to craft a truly persuasive message.
http://rhetoric.byu.edu/ [byu.edu]
Re: Green energy? (Score:4, Interesting)
It's actually easy. Sit their butts in an EV. Let them drive it for a few days. 70-90% of them would change their tune. Here's a thought for some actually useful legislation -- a big tax break for repair shops on loaner cars which are EVs. So people who leave their car in the shop get an EV loaner. That would cause real change.
You can argue until you are blue in the face, and people won't listen. But when they find they can get going at a traffic light in a Renault Zoe faster than the Porsche next to them (it's not zero to sixty that matters in the real world, it's zero to fifteen) and that they can start driving the MOMENT they turn on the car, and that the car doesn't smell of gas when they start it around their kids, etc. EVs are just better, and everyone with an EV knows it.
Put them in an EV, and many of them will figure it out, themselves.
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I just spent a few minutes writing my congress-critters suggesting this. Why not just take a few mins to do the same?
https://www.congress.gov/membe... [congress.gov]
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You had me a Zoe, given that's been my car of choice for the last six years. I totally agree that the experience makes all the difference. Experiencing for yourself that it's the-same-but-better is absolutely the key. And it so is. That 0 to 15 point is key. A Zoe is so nimble and nippy compared to these monster ICE cars, whether they're a tank like a Macan or a souped-up BMW 3 series driven by an aggro wanker.
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I think the real problem with the myth is that people don't understand that a gasoline automobile is roughly as efficient as a coal plant.
Mostly less: coal plants (ignoring IGCC) hits about 40ish continuously, which is comparable to modern petrol engines. the thing is that most journeys aren't highway cruising so the actual efficiency is a lot less.
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Real world figures are 25% or less for average US vehicles, 40% for a modern coal plant. Those two are not equivalent, if you ask me.
Yes, best-case for an ICE vehicle is close to 40%. But that assumes perfect conditions, perfect maintenance and other things that are rarely true.
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This is a myth that just refuses to die. An EV running on the most carbon-intensive grid mix in the US (and in fact, in the world) is still cleaner than a gas hybrid, because:
I initially replied anonymously but I have more that should be said that's wrong about your article. It's based on this PDF. https://theicct.org/wp-content... [theicct.org]
Do you know what's missing in this PDF? The costs associated with heating and cooling BEVs. Apparently their BEVs only run during the perfect temperature range of 70-80 degree Fahrenheit. If you're not aware, BEVs start losing efficiency every degree below 70 until something like freezing. And they lose efficiency above 80 as well.
Don't get me wr
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Gas hybrids are just a subset of gas vehicles.
The heating and cooling thing is a complete red herring -- the same effect is true for gas vehicles, it's just less noticeable, because most gas cars have a longer range than EV equivalents.
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Yes, I did. And you're conflating things. You have to compare like-for-like. A Citroen Ami is way less carbon intensive than a Hummer EV, and far more intensive than a Cube Cargo Hybrid bike. No shit, Sherlock. But if you compare a Citroen Ami to an ICE Smart car, the Ami is still better, and an M3 is still less intensive than a BMW 3 Series, and a Hummer EV is still better than a Chevy Tahoe, and we should drive less in smaller cars and use active transport more and also not let the best be the enemy of th
Toyota = Greenwashing (Score:2)
Seems that Toyota won the Greenwashing award of thee Year.
Meanwhile, Tesla displaced 13 million tons CO2, and that was 2 years ago.
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If Toyota had put the same amount of effort into building EVs as they put into their greenwashing and lobbying etc, they'd have been able to build some half-decent mass market EVs by now.
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As we all know, some locations love the coal and natural gas, others don't.
That is only true of today not of in 10 years. The grid is always changing but the biggest change is that coal is dying off at a rather rapid pace. [eia.gov] Furthermore, unless you live in Texas, the grid one giant national system.
Coal and natural gas energy production significantly raises the national pollution average.
A BEV that was powered by an even split of coal and natural gas would still pollute less than the most efficient ICE car. Energy generation happens under ideal (static) conditions while a vehicle encounters a dynamic conditions which will always reduce efficiency.
Re: Green energy? (Score:2)
The national grid is pretty much the opposite of one unified system. Virtually every regional operator is running their own grid, with usually fairly little transmission between. Heck, MISO is basically two seperate grids now, south and north, and contains many "zones" that have pretty segmented operating characteristics.
Re: Green energy? (Score:4, Informative)
This site has some really interesting stats and graphics about where and how power is generated: https://www.eia.gov/electricit... [eia.gov]
Re: Green energy? (Score:2)
California IOU charge upwards of 40 cents per kWh. If you choose a TOU rate, it can be as high as 66 cents/kWh peak times.
Big EV vs small EV (Score:3)
Which is greener?
The obvious answer is the smaller vehicle.
But the real answer is more complex. It depends on the purpose of the miles put on the vehicle. How many people are being carried? How much stuff is being transported? If the smaller vehicle needs multiple trips or is physically incapable of carrying the larger load then it's not very green at all.
I don't want to replace all the 18 wheeled diesel semis with Prius.
Use case matters.
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There's another factor as well -- charge-discharge cycles. I have had three generations of the same EV (Renault Zoe). the first did 90 miles, the next 186, the final one 245. Obviously, the former has to go through nearly 3 times more charge-discharge cycles for the same mileage than the latter. So the battery SoH will decline that much faster.
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Ugh discharge and battery wear. My model 3 is down about 12% max after 5 years which isn't the end of the world but kinda sucks. My other car's gas tank doesn't shrink over time.
I hope the new solid state or whatever next gen battery tech gets here before I need a new car.
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This is so true!
My mum drives an electric Smart. 2 seats. Range is maybe 60 or 80 miles. She is retired and has no commute. Her trip to the shops is maybe 6 miles round and she visits friends who live 10 miles away. She used to have a Nissan Leaf. but said she wanted a smaller car... and she loves her Smart. It is the right car for her.
I frequently drive from London to Bratislava, about 1000 miles. From time to time I need to carry 5 passengers. I drive a 6 seat Model X which does all that I want, and can k
Where is the surprise? (Score:2)
I'm not a fan of the Prius myself, but it has its place and its base. We could of course criticize what it actually takes to build it, or the cost of disposing it when the time comes, but it should have little trouble winning this award.
Massive caveats (Score:2)
Hmmm I call bollocks. The Prius is only "green" if you run it all the time from the battery and not the engine. In the real world this will not happen because a) people are lazy and won't charge their car every day, b) The engine kicks for various reasons - speed, high temperatures, cold temperatures, operating defoggers, battery charging, c) people on longer trips will use the engine too. So yeah, it's low emission if it is never used the way it is in the real world. Besides, if people did drive it off bat
Ebikes Are Greener - Groms Get 125MPG (Score:2)
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Yep. We need a heated, somewhat-crash-safe, stable on stop E-bike. If we had one, it would sell a lot. In other words, the US has no small EV cars, and no EV micro-cars. If we did have those, people would buy and use them for commutes.
The people who'll use an E-bike for a commute are largely (though not completely) the same folk who'd use a bike. So E-bikes are not going to move the needle much on adoption. A small, cheap, enclosed trike with a hair-dryer heater could be a huge game changer.
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Do you really think EV micro-cars or quadricycles would sell in the US? There are several on the market, and the manufacturers clearly thought bringing them to the US was not worth bothering with.
The most beautiful EV micro of all is this, in my opinion:
https://www.caricecars.com/ [caricecars.com]
Clickbait title (Score:2)
Why would this surprise anybody? The Prius Prime has been the most economical car ever since it was introduced in 2016. It easily beats all ICE or non-plugin hybrids, it beats FCEVs, and it will beat many EVs depending on the usage case.
I guess the second would be the GM Bolt, which has more embedded CO2, but slightly less during driving.
Utter BS (Score:2)
Unless only driven 40 miles between charges, the cost of burning gas will make the prius much worse for the environment than an equivalent ev. Battery production is, in the long term, far less harmful than gas production and burning.
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The vehicle's battery is less than one-tenth the size of the battery on the monstrous Hummer EV.
With 10 times the emissions in manufacturing a plug-in hybrid will require a lot of miles driven on gas just to match the level of emissions. Most trips are far less than 40 miles and many people would rarely if ever exceed that in their daily driving.
Moreover, there are a lot of EV's sold to people as second cars. They are using them to go to work instead of taking a bus or car pooling. And they have an ICE vehicle to use on longer trips. So that battery that is 10 times the size isn't actually getting u
Green? (Score:3)
I am pretty sure me keeping my 2003 corolla is way more green than buying a new car every 5 years even if the fuel was 100% "green"
I saw all that, but am looking to replace.. likely another corolla or mazda 3. Had forgotten about hybrids, gotta put them on the list again.
Any suggestions?
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"Green" is the antithesis of "badass" (Score:3)
No self-respecting badass would even drive one of these.
Re: orange car (Score:2)
No. I need to be drive 300 miles (150m each way) regularly without going broke. If you can get by without a car, or with a useless 50-mile vehicle, good for you. Most people can't. Please don't tell other people what's best for them and their individual circumstances.
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It's obvious that you are ignoring that the OP was talking about what to do if you agree that "burning fossil fuels is the problem". You clearly don't agree with that -- you think it's *a* problem, but not as important to you as the problem of an affordable car. So if you don't agree with the premise, you're obviously not going to agree with the conclusion.
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I mean... car purchases are notoriously irrational decisions from the point of view of cold hard economics. Depreciating assets, prestige marques, SUVs, trucks, 0 to 60 times, alloys, paint colours, etc etc -- huge numbers of people spend thousands of dollars more than they "need" to on their cars for all sorts of reasons that others find completely bizarre and pointless. Rolls Royce will sell you a headliner with LEDs in it for tens of thousands of dollars. Spending money for zero tailpipe emissions and a
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Nah, dude. This doesn't help. I'm a screaming EV advocate myself, but there are places still where it doesn't make sense. 100% EV isn't going to work yet. And not just for people in Montana with massive spaces between chargers -- in big cities where people don't have garages or lots, the per mile cost is just as high for an EV as for gas, and it takes longer to charge the EV. If you cannot charge overnight somehow, a life entirely on public chargers is not an improvement.
You'll be right some day, but t
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Burning fosil fuels is the problem and it is obvious that hybrid cars do not help here. Simply limit your choice to electic cars.
Why do you think this?
In 2021, 52% of all trips, including all modes of transportation, were less than three miles, with 28% of trips less than one mile. Just 2% of all trips were greater than 50 miles.
A plug-in EV very clearly would help a lot.
Source: https://www.energy.gov/eere/ve... [energy.gov]
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An e-bike would actually be better for a very large percentage of that 52% of 3 mile and under trips. But humans will behave how they behave.... and that's also why PHEVs aren't great. Too many people just get bored of the friction of plugging them in, or never bother getting a charge point installed at all.
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PHEVs to me are the most practical 1:1 shift we can make in the near term to reduce gas consumption. Charging infra isn't there and won't be for years to support the current driving habits of people. Many don't have access to chargers. PHEV can, when charging is available, reduce gas consumption dramatically.
Even regular hybrids decrease consumption by 30%+.
And yeah, we should be promoting e-bikes and NEVs (neighborhood electric vehicles) for around-town travel. No need for 5000 lb cars to go to the grocer